I'm going to go with the majority (I've read so far anyway) on this one --- NO
ok, it's a game --- I have enough money to sub, but not enough really to buy anything extra, even "fluff" stuff
plese, please don't make this like all the others and give in to that ---
it gets in the way of a real MMO experience; believe me, I've seen it ruin more than one game I've played around with
I for one think we need to talk this over more. I mean, what if they allowed players that took part in raids on major targets to buy a t-shirt online saying that they had "taken out so-and-so in Terminus". They could only buy the t-shirt after their raid took out the target. More money for VR, advertising, people get to show off to their friends, reason to go after raid targets...
I am so "The" devil's advocate here....
JDNight said:I for one think we need to talk this over more. I mean, what if they allowed players that took part in raids on major targets to buy a t-shirt online saying that they had "taken out so-and-so in Terminus". They could only buy the t-shirt after their raid took out the target. More money for VR, advertising, people get to show off to their friends, reason to go after raid targets...
I am so "The" devil's advocate here....
That wouldnt have to be in-game :)
Kelem said:Pandora's box. It leads to other things that lead to other things that soon just get out of hand, next thing you know you have a cash shop. Out of game items as said by Nanoushka sure I would actually like those. Such as the items that some of us are waiting on for supporting the game, maps, lore books, etc..
Well said Kelem. I would not be in favor of in game purchases either. Once a game goes to a cash shop model, I am out the door. I was a Founder in Rift but once they implemented the cash shop model, I stopped logging in for quite a long time. I actually felt betrayed by Trion for killing the game I enjoyed. Now I log in once in a while and run around with my son, but Trion never got another .01 from me.
Nephretiti said:Wolf - the only one having any kind of tantrum is you.
Nephretiti said:This debate all leads back to the exact same reasoning. I am disappointed in the community here for the ONLY logic they seem to be able to apply here leads to one conclusion:You have absolutely no faith in the DevTeam in it's ability to run a company or create a cash shop that will not infringe upon the players themselves. I have absolute faith in them and their decisions. It is, after all their design and their game. Most of these guys have proven time and again that they know what they are doing.
I am done with this debate. I will not be replying here again.
I, on the other hand, entered this thread to simply post my thoughts on the Cash Shop discussion, which apparently bothered you and prompted you to ask for the thread to be shut down (and not the only time). I then suggested that you could simply choose to not read it. After that, it's you who decided to come after me. I've simply been responding to your various strawmen and inaccuracies.
Nephretiti said:You come here and attack me over and over.
Nephretiti said:I even apologized to you once on the offhand chance that I somehow did offend you in some way, though I still don't see how.
Nephretiti said:
Oh for the love of the Goddess Syronai - can we just bury this thread now?
Nephretiti said:But you keep coming here trying to bait me into something - I just can't figure it out.
Wolfsong said:
Probably not.
However, you can choose to not read it.
Nephretiti said:I am fine with no cash shop - I said all along I would never use it.
Liar.
I don't know whether to be impressed or apalled by the sheer abject dishonesty required for you to type that, when your clear and easily verifiable post history in this thread shows the exact opposite.
In almost every reply you've posted, you have been quite unequivocally *for* a cash shop.
You've argued that they should exist despite the fact that you wouldn't use one.
You've argued that they should exist for those who'd like to buy such things, but for others to be able to hide them.
You've argued that those who don't want one in any form are "forcing their playstyle on others" and that you are "SORELY disappointed" in them for feeling that way.
Out of disgust of people disagreeing with you, you posted how you were "done with this debate" and wouldn't be posting anymore.
Now you sit there and have the gall to claim "you're fine with no cash shop"?
Pardon my language but... holy s#!t. I've seen dishonest people in my time, but wow. You are seriously next-level.
Nephretiti said:My "attempts to shut down the discussion" was only an attempt to get a sticky about there NOT being a cash shop, ever. That way we dont have to continue this pointless debate.
Folks, please keep this on topic and mature, any personal arguments or attacks will be removed to save the thread from being closed. If you don't agree with someone else's opinion, you are free to state yours and then move on or ignore the other person, do not engage in back and forth arguments as it detracts from the topic at hand and bloats the thread.
ZeroGravitas said:A decent compromise might be an online (not in-game) shop. It could sell both physical stuff (like cups, stickers, shirts, cloth maps), plus things like extra alt slots, name change, world transfer, etc. that are not game-play items.
I was going to say...
I have to give in to the idea that character name changes, server transfers, etc. will need to be managed. Must those transaction occur in a "cash shop"?
:)
OakKnower said:ZeroGravitas said:A decent compromise might be an online (not in-game) shop. It could sell both physical stuff (like cups, stickers, shirts, cloth maps), plus things like extra alt slots, name change, world transfer, etc. that are not game-play items.
I was going to say...
I have to give in to the idea that character name changes, server transfers, etc. will need to be managed. Must those transaction occur in a "cash shop"?
:)
Well, all the MMOs I've played have charged fairly nominal fees for at least world transfers, name changes and extra (beyond an already generous) allotment of character slots, at a minimum. These things do cost the developer money. I had a guild mate once who would change his name every week or two.
Given that this game is likely to be a fairly niche offering, at least initially, and VR seems adamantly against play to win and a soul-destroying microtransition business plan, I see nothing wrong with folks paying for such non-game affecting services. I'd hate to see this game go the way of those that needed to go in-game cash shop/micro-transactions to stay alive. This is a real danger that early supporters like us need, in my opinion, to be aware of and to be willing to give Pantheon the ability to not just survive, but thrive.
That said, if VR is willing and able to include an endless supply those things in our base subscriptions, I'm all for it!
ZeroGravitas said:OakKnower said:ZeroGravitas said:A decent compromise might be an online (not in-game) shop. It could sell both physical stuff (like cups, stickers, shirts, cloth maps), plus things like extra alt slots, name change, world transfer, etc. that are not game-play items.
I was going to say...
I have to give in to the idea that character name changes, server transfers, etc. will need to be managed. Must those transaction occur in a "cash shop"?
:)
Well, all the MMOs I've played have charged fairly nominal fees for at least world transfers, name changes and extra (beyond an already generous) allotment of character slots, at a minimum. These things do cost the developer money. I had a guild mate once who would change his name every week or two.
Given that this game is likely to be a fairly niche offering, at least initially, and VR seems adamantly against play to win and a soul-destroying microtransition business plan, I see nothing wrong with folks paying for such non-game affecting services. I'd hate to see this game go the way of those that needed to go in-game cash shop/micro-transactions to stay alive. This is a real danger that early supporters like us need, in my opinion, to be aware of and to be willing to give Pantheon the ability to not just survive, but thrive.
That said, if VR is willing and able to include an endless supply those things in our base subscriptions, I'm all for it!
Page 6 Brad states no plans for cash shops. So seems to be safe there.
I can't imagine they would charge an arm and a leg to change names though.
darksaber8570 said:Dullahan said:Still think the coolest idea I've seen for a shop was 3d printed character and mob figurines. They could add a button at character select and in your inventory that could save a 3d copy of your character. Also in the beastiary of your journal they could add a similar button next to mobs you discovered. Hit the Order 3d Model button and it loads the web storefront placing the 3d model in your cart.
I actually think this is a cool idea.
Just a follow up on this idea. Star Trek online now selling 3d prints of starships. Such a cool idea.
Absolutely no for cash shops. but i would like to see an online merchandise store that can track achievements in terminus and allow purchase of memento shwag based on things i have done. things like the 3d prints of my characters or mobs i have beaten, T-shirts that are for veterans or "Founding donators" only.
Dullahan said:darksaber8570 said:Dullahan said:Still think the coolest idea I've seen for a shop was 3d printed character and mob figurines. They could add a button at character select and in your inventory that could save a 3d copy of your character. Also in the beastiary of your journal they could add a similar button next to mobs you discovered. Hit the Order 3d Model button and it loads the web storefront placing the 3d model in your cart.
I actually think this is a cool idea.
Just a follow up on this idea. Star Trek online now selling 3d prints of starships. Such a cool idea.
I'm going to bump this because I think it's a great idea too.
fazool said:OMG - I read this and the fact the Kilsin posted it and I got this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.
This topic creates a terrible visceral response in me. Let me explain why:
Back in the day SOE posed a question to get people's thoughts on this topic. There was an overwhelming response from the forums screaming "Oh, Hell no!". Then they ran an in-game poll and you could tell the answers were very negative because they kept making announcements that were "sales pitchy" trying to soothe everyone that this won't ruin the game. In other words, they (Smed?) made up their mind and were trying to sell the customer-base on the idea.
Well, it started out innocently enough with : "nothing that could help you in game. Just appearance items." There is a huge fallacy in that argument, however. A lot of people strive for appearance items (search for my post about the purple pants). Strutting around with your Fiery Avenger was a very big deal. The appearance thing totally trivialized that concept and suddenly anyone could have any cool look they wanted without have to hunt for it (save time and effort) without having to research and find it (save time and effort) without having to quest for it (save time and effort) and without taking any risks to get it (save time and effort).
Even the "appearance only" argument totally dumbs down the game and serves the instant gratification demographic.
Appearance is one reward of the gameplay and letting people buy it, is the same as letting them buy power, level, skills or experience.
Then, to make things even worse, they started adding potions. Again, the argument being "this is temporary so won't permanently give you an advantage in the game". *BS*! I could spend RL money and buy hundreds of mana, clarity, healing and XP pots and be light years ahead of other players who don't spend RL money.
Then, continuing their trend of doubling down on a bad idea, they started selling armor kits. Their argument being "new players need to catch up o the mature population"....This one is so game-ruining I don't even know how to explain it.
There should never, ever, ever, ever be any in-game purchases of any type. They are a game degrading, ruinous short-sighted money grab. They generate a little cash at the beginning but they make the game shallow and shorten its life.
I said it then (and was right) so I'll say it now, with that proven experience :
Oh, Hell no!
Well said and sums up my thoughts’ A HUGE NO TO INGAME PURCHAES
I think I understand what one of Kilsin's goals might have been here, to galvanize the community based on the notion that very few of us are adovcates of the cash shop. There is a flip side to this though...
My immediate answer to cash shops was that I didn't want them in any form. I then thought back to my experience with Vanguard when the subs got so low that it went FTP and cash shop and how that was going to be our savior. That is when reality smacked me in the face.
The reality is that this world of immersion, as Noobiedoo so eloquenty described it earlier in a post, is my hobby. For VR, it also has to be a vialble buusiness, if not, it will cease to exist. I realize that Brad has already commited to no cash shops, and I assure you I am relieved as much as any of us. By eliminating this option, however, it is limiting a potential source of income for VR. Simply put, that means that the number of subscriptions has to be healthy enough to turn a profit, not for months, but for years to come.
I pledged a couple of days ago and I think there were about 8,500 or so of us already pledged. Assuming that the sub price is $20 per month and all of us have only one account, that would mean VR would potentially be making $170k per month as it stands now. I have no clue how much they need to make, but I am pretty sure that it would need to be considerably more than this. (I realize that we are still over a year away from launch and that the numbers will certainly be much better come launch.)
So now that we have it on the best authority that there will not be a cash shop at launch, it is up to the community to keep it that way. If we do not, we cannot blame VR if we see one in the future. The only way I know of doing this is to start hitting the message boards out there and try to hype the game up and change peoples' minds about subscription based games with no cash shop because a lot of gamers in today's age have really only known FTP games where you can buy really big swords in cash shops.
I also plan on getting as many of my friends and family hooked on the game as possible, I will be their digital pusher of sorts. The last guild I was in gave me the brilliant idea of making my RL children craft for me as punishment instead of grounding them, so they will be getting an account of their own as well. I know that the teenagers of today can be turds in games, but I think that some of us that have reached a certain age have forgotten that we too were bratty teenagers when we started EQ, maybe a bit more respectful, but bratty nonetheless. Teens are going to be viable target customers for Pantheon, so if you have the cash, get your neices and nephews a sub for Christmas and tell them to get their friends.
This will likely be the last MMO that I will attempt to play because if it doesn't work and I am forced to play future games similiar to the steaming piles of poo that have been released in recent years, I might as well take up a different hobby...I hear lawn darts is making a comeback.
I have read these forums and it is clear we are all passionate about the type of game we want, and by every indication, VR is listening. I just think that, until VR has the resources to invest heavily in advertising, it is going to be up to us, in part, to help them do it. I know many already are, but the more the better.
If for some reason we do see a cash shop at some time in game, I would have to agree with what most people have already stated... I wouldn't want to see anything that includes gear. Let me buy the ability to have more than one tradeskill on my main or something like that. I never understood why folks were against this, i'm just going to log an alt in and do it anyway. I would warn against what the military calls "mission creep" though when it comes to a cash shop, especially if there is a large investor in VR's future.
Let's be real guys. There will be a cash shop and I'm fine with it. Whether it happens at the start or down the road, it's a huge money maker. Sooner all of you guys come to terms with that the less pissed you will be when it happens.
I for one never payed for my sub in EQ2 because I bought krono's from other players. While someone else did spend RL cash on it i did not. So how did EQ2 get my money? The marketplace. I spent more money then i care to admit on house items and appearence gear which I personally think is awesome. When I made a new toon i immediately bought him some neat looking gear. Say what you want, I loved it.
And house items? Even if they had a market place JUST for house items how would that be bad?
Long story short, it will happen. Either 1 month or 3 years after the game comes out and i personally will be very happy when it does.
Garper said:The boss has confirmed that there will be no cash shop... I'm not sure why this thread is still running...
Garper,
It still exists, I assume, because VR is worried. In recent years only Square Enix has successfully launched an MMO that is both pay to buy the game (and expansions) and subscription-based. That is Final Fantasy 14. And even so, they have a huge company and were able to internally fund its development (twice, as the initial release was so bad they had to pull it from the market and spend another year further developing it). And even FF14 is not pure. They have no in-game cash shop, but they do have an online store that sells not just the game, expansions, world transfers, name and appearance/race changes, but also extra bank space and cosmetic stuff like mounts, minions and costumes. What is more, Final Fantasy started with a huge fan base from and well-established lore and launched as on both console and computer platforms. They now probably have the second highest player base in the MMORPG world, counting in the millions.
It is an extremely well-designed and well-supported example of today's sterile lonely instant-gratification MMO.
The list of other AAA games that tried to hold the line as a subscription game and failed? The Secret World, Rift, Vanguard, Wildstar, and others.
The cash shop/micro-transactions model ruined the game I once loved, Lord of the Rings Online. It was initially not too bad, being more of a mixture of subscription, buy to play and micro-transactions. Initially only non-play affecting items were sold. The shop was mainly for progressively buying the game to play it as after the first few free regions. If you didn't want to sub you had to unlock new regions in the store, and unlock gold caps and trait slots and such stuff to get a fully functioning character. One could theoretically get these things through undertaking an endless series of mind-numbingly boring grinds, but that is a game few would choose to play.
But after about a year, changes were evident. More and more development was based on what developers could sell in the shop, not what made it a better game. Pay to win reared its ugly head with unique potion boosts that stacked with in-game potions, making them something raiders depended on (along with many others). Player longevity in the game became something developers cared less and less about, as the main surge in cash shop purchases came through the churn of ever-more new players coming into the game, if only for a few months.
Yet soon, chickens came home to roost. With each new annual expansion more players chose not to buy it and dropped from play. Desperation set in, with waves of layoffs and decreased quality of new content. Finally, armor, leveled characters, weapons and just about anything a player would buy entered the shop. Expansions ended. Developments of new dungeons and raids ended, though increasingly pathetic regions continued to be released.
This once magnificent game, now well into maintenance mode, will soon, I hear, limp into Mordor and die.
That is what both we and VR are seeking to avoid. Here's hoping Pantheon is a huge success and proves that players still care about community, long-term commitment to a game, and a genuine feeling of accomplishment in a game -- and that the second "M" of MMO still means something.
OakKnower said:Page 6 Brad states no plans for cash shops. So seems to be safe there.
I can't imagine they would charge an arm and a leg to change names though.
Brad did say no cash shops in the context of in game shops. He did not exclude the possibility of services to be paid through your account portal on the website. These services could be a number of things like server transfers or name changes.
And while the underlying work needed to perform those services is minimal and substantial costs not warranted for that reason, those services do allow an escape for a player who has generated a negative personal reputation. For that reason the services should cost a notable amount. If you wish to wipe your slate of stupidity clean, it should cost you enough to make the thought of continuing in that bad behavior on your second chance very unappealing.
After some consideration, I think my final stance on this matter will be a no to in-game cash shop, but a yes to an online portal that offers server transfers and name changes but little to nothing more than that (maybe additional character slots given that there are a reasonable amount given to begin with). Nothing that affects anything in-game however.
I dont know what the difference between an in game shop and having to go to a website is. Just an extra annoying step. I know what Brad said but I'll bet my bottom dollar a lot of stuff he said will change over time, especially after/if/when they get a serious investor.
I'll say it again EQ2 has a fantastic in game shop. I havent played in about a year but there wasnt a single item that made any difference in game. Lots of house items/appearence gear/mounts(slow)/ETC. Even the mounts were slow, but they had an amazing mechanic that made any mount automatically boost its speed up to your highest mount speed.
The in game cash shop is what caused me to leave EQ2. I don't think it was fantastic. I didn't like house items/appearance gear/mounts being sold for real money when all those things used to come from in-game activities. My opinion isn't any more or less valid than anyone who liked the cash shop. I simply do not want to play a game with a cash shop. Period. If that leaves me without a game to play (and I am currently without a game to play) so be it.
I do not agree with people who insist that there must or will be a cash shop and that I must get over it. That feels a little like telling me that I must have an iPhone instead of my Droid Turbo. More choice is better. (Windows phone users are just weird--just kidding!) There are many games with cash shops already, I'd really like the games I'm choosing to play to not have one.
There have been strong hints that there already is a serious investor for Pantheon and yet the tenets remain the same. Sure things change but as long as these tenets are held to and there is no give in to the naysayers, here I will stay.
