Kilsin said:lyrina said:a simple: NO
Why, though? The explanation is what I am interested in the most mate :)
To me its because we're paying a sub for both access to and playing the game on a server that requires upkeep and for VR to develop more content. Adding in game items takes away from that. Instead of me finding something I like and finding out about it, farming, getting people together, and playing the game to get it... im shopping in some "store" paying for something that doesnt really exist. Thats not playing, nor is it an achievement.
Sell transfers (within reason) name changes (but have an ignorable "account handle" that cant be changed), race changes or what have you. Sell real shirts, toys, keychains, mugs, etc... no game content. To hell with slippery slope or what-if's ... it just shouldnt be happening in a game people are paying a monthly premium to play. Just because everyone else is doing it doesnt make it right either.
Feyshtey said:Rogue said:The only thing I take issue with is crate gambling, yes it's gambling, yes it's awful. I hope one day it all has to be regulated by state and/or federal gambling commissions.
Please tell me this is a joke.
Please?
I thoroughly despise the system in it's entirety. It's a scam. The whole point is to get people to buy crates for a 25%, 50%, 75% chance at high quality loot. Albeit you "can" get these crates through playing most of the time, yet they allow you to purchase crates and keys to gamble your luck.
I'd rather just buy the items outright. That won't make the devs the money they want though because it doesn't keep the addiction.
That said, the regulation thing was a gross over exaggeration, but make no mistake: I despise the entire system and would gladly see it erased from history and future. :P Just my opinion.
Feyshtey said:
Rogue said:
The only thing I take issue with is crate gambling, yes it's gambling, yes it's awful. I hope one day it all has to be regulated by state and/or federal gambling commissions.
Please tell me this is a joke.
Please?
I thoroughly despise the system in it's entirety. It's a scam. The whole point is to get people to buy crates for a 25%, 50%, 75% chance at high quality loot. Albeit you "can" get these crates through playing most of the time, yet they allow you to purchase crates and keys to gamble your luck.
I'd rather just buy the items outright. That won't make the devs the money they want though because it doesn't keep the addiction.
That said, the regulation thing was a gross over exaggeration, but make no mistake: I despise the entire system and would gladly see it erased from history and future. :P Just my opinion.
+1 to that, I've seen far too much RNG through crates, etc over the past decade
Oxillion said:Aggelos said:HELL NO TO ANY INGAME PURCHASES!
That is exactly how I feel on this one...even after a week to think on it.
Ox
Agree 100% with this. This has cause me to leave some MMO's perminately. Why pay to get ahead and not even enjoy the game. Sure I could drop 100s (or even 1,000s) of dollars to be the best, but what fun is that if I cannot even enjoy the game content.
I'll just throw out there I think with subs, there is zero need for cash shop. Cash shops support games that have a F2P player base.
I do support account services though, name changes (with a cool down) and server transfers. It would be neat if any previous alias or servers were shown to anyone who "inspected" you.
-Rylas
For a game that's supposed to be focused on creating an immersive experience, a world to get lost in, I'm somewhat surprised this is a topic of discussion. Nothing breaks my immersion faster than seeing in game purchases. The only time I should be purchasing anything is from NPC vendors or trading with other players.
That being said, if it's unavoidable and there are to be in game purchases, anything for sale should have no affect on gameplay and be reasonably obtainable by playing the game. Nothing should be exclusively available from in game purchases. And by reasonable, it shouldn't be something where it's technically possible to obtain but not feasible, i.e. it shouldn't require three+ years of farming to get.
I very much dislike the idea of a cash shop. While I understand VR is a business which need funding that said shops could generate the other side of that coin is as a business, every minute a team member spens putting items in the cash shop is a minute NOT spent making Pantheon a great game.
Make the game great and it will make plenty of monies. Cash shops in my opinon are like drugs. Once you get that hit o' cash it's oh so easy to add more to the shop. Before long you end up like what I saw in EQ2. "Sorry, we couln't fix any bugs this month but hey check out all the new stuff in the store" I would like to belive VR would not make that same mistake, but such things scare me. I fully believe Pantheon will be the game I (and the rest of us) have been looking for for quite a while and I worry about such things.
If I spend money to purchase a game, then pay a monthly subscription to support it, I sure don't expect to be bombarded by a cash shop or anything resembling it. I think it's ok to sell real life items like statues, coffee mugs, etc. But I'm already paying to support it so don't tell me you need to add a cash shop to promote more development. Screw that - it's just the start of going down the slippery slope. If more money is needed then raise the subscription rate.
I'm not even keen on the idea of allowing name changes and server transfers. How can they be justified in a game that places a huge emphasis on reputation? If someone screws up their reputation they should have to live with it forevermore, or until they delete that character. They shouldn't be allowed to weasel out of it by getting a new name or escaping to a new server. I would also like to have the ability to ignore someone's entire account; why /ignore a bunch of characters when one /ignore account will do the job better?
I'm not open to a cash shop within the game. I am a fan of cash for account services, transactions that only take place outside of the game on the Pantheon web site. I don't want to see anything regarding a cash shop within the game.
The game is ruined if someone can have any advantage over others based on things purchased outside of the game. I don't want the ability to purchase a prestigious equipment look, spell effect, pet, etc. that trivializes the in-game effort to acquire.
I trust that Brad shares our stance on microtransactions and would not allow that cancer.
Aside from the slippery-slope nature of cash shops (which plays out in any MMO that starts off with "just fluff and non-game affecting stuff we swear!"), it never leads anywhere good, I'm against the idea because my stance is:
If it's in the game, it should be obtainable in the game, by playing the game.
Every item, boost, or what-have-you is an opportunity for interesting content or challenge to acquire it. Offering people a short-cut to it for a price is cynical and undermines the point of playing a game (MMORPG especially) in the first place.
A common argument for cash shop stuff is "if you don't want it, then don't buy it. It's not affecting you". But that's a short-sighted point-of-view. While it not be affecting me (or others), it *is* affecting someone. For the person who isn't interested in such things, they continue enjoying the game as they like for the same price they'd been. For those whose enjoyment is enhanced by such items, suddenly, their ability to enjoy the game as they'd like has an additional price-tag. That just seems fundamentally unfair to me. If a MMORPG is intended to be a level playing field, then it needs to be so for everyone, no matter what part of the field they may choose to play on.
My two cents.
That said, I would be all for physical items. A nice Pantheon wall scroll or poster to place above my computer desk would be pretty smexy :)
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that what we need is a Forums shop - where we can buy coins to do things like, Lock a Thread. Or DELETE a thread, and so on. I know I'd buy one or hundreds.
Wolf - sorry - but this has already been answered. There will be no in-game shop. There is no reason to continue the debate. We may need to sticky a short little post somewhere saying there will be none. Heck - I'd say that would be a forums coin to buy as well!
I, like most it feels, are against the 'pay to win' ideology that underpins many of the so called 'free-to-play' games out there. Having said that, I am not 100% averse to buying *some*things from a 'shop', though I tend to limit myself to 'fun' and 'feel-good' items (eg seasonal outfits/costumes) rather than 'in-game advantageous' items such as 'exp potions'.
However ....
... I think some of you need to ask yourselves these questions:
1. Should there be an absolute fixed number of characters per account?
(ie buy 2nd Subscription for any more chars)
2. Should Server transfer for characters be forbidden?
(assuming checks - i.e. no Blue -> Red servers allowed etc)
3. Should Name changes be forbidden?
(even with visible list/link of prior names for 'rep')
If you answered 'NO' to any of these... then:
1. If free, how could VR ever manage/administer it?
People might request names/server changes every day ....
People might make 10's or 100's of characters per account and choke your database...
2. If not free, how do you collect the money if not through a 'shop' ?
I have thought about it. I like Alts. A lot. I also don't think you should have to subsidize all the space I use in the database for having lots of them. But, If the number was '4 per account', is it 'reasonable' to expect me to pay an extra £15/month for 2 or 3 more, say?. Say, 6 months after release, I find 4 of my work colleagues, now good friends, play Pantheon, but on a different server for whatever reason, is it reasonable for me to have to start again on that server? Can I not move my chracter across? I feel these are not inherently 'unreasonable' questions and certainly warrant consideration.
Nephretiti said:I would like to take this opportunity to point out that what we need is a Forums shop - where we can buy coins to do things like, Lock a Thread. Or DELETE a thread, and so on. I know I'd buy one or hundreds.
Wolf - sorry - but this has already been answered. There will be no in-game shop. There is no reason to continue the debate. We may need to sticky a short little post somewhere saying there will be none. Heck - I'd say that would be a forums coin to buy as well!
I am NOT sour about it in any way. I posted several times that even if there WAS a shop I wouldn't be using it. I really don't care one way or another. But the point is, once a decision about it was posted - I find it no longer a point that needs to debated at all. All it does is confuse people into thinking maybe there still is a chance.
There is no chance. There needs to be no debate. Once the purpose of this thread has been decided it is no longer neccessary to rehash it again every 3 or 4 days.
Sorry I forgot about not posting here and somehow offending you somehow. Not quite sure how it happened that you are so offended. Trying to shut down the conversation about the store? Yes. No point in it. There will be no store. Talking about what could be in the store? Pointless - there is no store.
Nephretiti said:I would like to take this opportunity to point out that what we need is a Forums shop - where we can buy coins to do things like, Lock a Thread. Or DELETE a thread, and so on. I know I'd buy one or hundreds.
Wolf - sorry - but this has already been answered. There will be no in-game shop. There is no reason to continue the debate. We may need to sticky a short little post somewhere saying there will be none. Heck - I'd say that would be a forums coin to buy as well!
I wholly agree with the position that a cash shop that allows power increases to a player is detrimmental to the health of a game. Cash shops [edit] like this [/edit] can and do more often than not damage the health of a game's ecnoomy and longevity.
However, I am supportive of a cash shop in certain circumstances. For instance, I embrace the notion of player generated content like furniture or ascetics that can be purchased for decorating a player's house. This is an alternate funding method for a game that has nothing at all to do with any person's daily gameplay. If you choose not to engage it is wholly irrelevent to you and had no impact to you in any measurable way. But there's a very active community of both artists and consumers that love this kind of thing, and the net result is more funding to the studio to offsent expensnses for developing more content for the subscribers to the service.
[edit] @Rogue -- I cant really argue the idea of how the gambling systems implemented in soem games is really stupid. My astonishment was much more the comment about how it should be monitored and enforced by government. We cannot keep running to elected officials who historicaly waffle on their positions based on the catch-phrase of the day to do what is in the best interest of the people.
I think there are primarily two viable routes (i.e., playerbase is happy or neutral with few detractors) when it comes to the implementation of (or lack of) in-game purchases, and they are tied to the game's revenue model:
1. Subscription-based (regardless of need to purchase box): No in-game purchases. Players typically feel disenfranchised when they're paying a monthly subscription and a studio implements in-game purchases or a cash shop, even if cosmetic only. Those items being created for in-game purchasing could and should rather be implemented in the game for players to obtain through quests or events or merchants. The grey area here would be account upgrades, such as additional character slots, name changes, or server transfers.. things that are relatively intangible to the in-game experience by other players.
2. B2P/F2P: In-game purchases acceptable, but cosmetic only. Despite my qualms with the game, I think GW2 does this particularly well. No in-game purchases/cash shop items are P2W, they are all cosmetic. The only thing that could be argued against is the ability to buy gold, but that is inevitable via black market and why not have the money go back to the studio anyways to help enable them to create more content. Also, item creation design in GW2 means that even those players that wish to buy gold to buy in-game items won't be getting anything special without still needing to pursue quests and putting in personal effort and time. Overall, fair design and implementation but only viable in B2P/F2P models.
Given that the current Pantheon model is subscription based, I would say "no" to in-game purchases/cash shop.
I will add my voice to the chorus of 'No'.
While I do think cosmetic only items in a cash shop isn't that bad, I do think it's the wrong way of having cosmetic items in Pantheon. Cosmetic items should be soley from ingame adventuring and crafting. Leave the majority of the cosmetic items connected with player created content and you give the populous further reasons for interaction and participation.
I do realise that there is no plan on actually having an ingame cash shop, which is exactly what I want to happen. The only style of cash shop that could and perhaps should be available for the Pantheon community is one that is external to the game which sells the likes of t-shirts, mugs, models, the pantheon soundtrack, mouse pads, posters etc. Physical items to help us decorate our gaming caves! :-)
Nephretiti said:I am NOT sour about it in any way. I posted several times that even if there WAS a shop I wouldn't be using it. I really don't care one way or another. But the point is, once a decision about it was posted - I find it no longer a point that needs to debated at all. All it does is confuse people into thinking maybe there still is a chance.
Nephretiti said:
There is no chance. There needs to be no debate. Once the purpose of this thread has been decided it is no longer neccessary to rehash it again every 3 or 4 days.
Nephretiti said:
Sorry I forgot about not posting here and somehow offending you somehow. Not quite sure how it happened that you are so offended. Trying to shut down the conversation about the store? Yes. No point in it. There will be no store. Talking about what could be in the store? Pointless - there is no store.
In my experience I have seen cash shops in varying degrees of "pay to win". The only cash shop I accepted as fair was the one in EQ2. Items in the EQ2 shop were mostly consmetic and some items that helped you, like inventory space.
But as for Pantheon, I say no.
Wolf - the only one having any kind of tantrum is you. You come here and attack me over and over. I even apologized to you once on the offhand chance that I somehow did offend you in some way, though I still don't see how.
When this discussion began the official statemnt was that no cash shop was intended. That, to me, indicates that they may revisit the duscussion at some time. Later, when it was a definitive, I aknowledged that it was done and hoped to be done with the discussion. But you keep coming here trying to bait me into something - I just can't figure it out.
I am fine with no cash shop - I said all along I would never use it. I am not pitching a fit or throwing a tantrum about it. It has no affect on me whatsoever. It IS interesting to me how you perceive "attitude" in a text discussion. I am sorry if all of your other discussions are inheritly over-bearing, but I gotta tell ya man - I have no attitude here. THIS particular discussion is about a cash shop - that doesn't exist. Not only that, it will NOT exist. I can see that you are passionate about this discussion and so I must apologize again - this discussion means nothing to me - except for the attacks on me. Please don't do that anymore.
My "attempts to shut down the discussion" was only an attempt to get a sticky about there NOT being a cash shop, ever. That way we dont have to continue this pointless debate.
