I do support an in game shop for COSMETIC items only. There should be nothing that affects your character in any way shape or form except through visual appearance. I remember playing in EQ looking like a damn circus clown all the mis-matched colored armor. I like things to be uniform... It bugs the ever loving hell out of me otherwise.
If you don't plan to do cosmetics, then no. Everyone now is quick to jump on the pay-to-win aspect. Having in-game item purchases will just grant this game a reputation for being pay-to-win, even if it isn't. People can't destinguish between actual pay-to-win and convienacne items like potions, bags, and other services. I don't have a problem with these items, but the complainers will start up that old pay-to-win garbage again
Cosmetics are a bad idea, even completely separate from a cash shop, even if you get them by in-game means.
People should look like what they actually accomplished. No lightsabers for level 5 characters, please. The only way you should be able to get an interesting-looking piece of armor or a weapon is to loot it off a tough mob, or to craft it using high-end skills and rare ingredients that are themselves a drop off a tough mob.
Allowing cosmetic changes is a slippery slope - eventually everyone will be dressed like a clown, and no one will be able to recognize what anyone really does or where has he been.
A cash shop is a bad idea even if it just sells cosmetics. It's like selling kisses instead of, well, selling a full service. Once you start, the respect is lost, the respect others have for you, the respect you have for yourself, the respect for others, everything. It inevitably ends in offering everything for sale. If the game goes that way, I will not be a part of it.
Yes, it would bring additional cash for the company. So would selling assorted services I mentioned bring cash to a family. Yet, would you recommend to any family to have their daughter do that? You wouldn't. So why would you prostitute a game then?
Cash is not everything.
@Aethor I disagree with you entirely. The accomplishment is it's own reward. The experience is what I seek. I could care less if someone has some pretty armor or weapon. It does not matter at all.
Cosmetics are fine, items that will affect the character in some meaningful way should be left out.
Else just skip the whole thing (which is fine, I really don't care either way. I am still going to play the hell out of this game. I am not a petulant child that is going to throw a tantrum and take all my toys and go home if I don't get my way).
I really could care less one way or the other. The only thing I want to make sure of is that this game does not get labeled with that pay-to-win bullshit.
And yes, Cash is definately not everything, but it helps keep the lights on. If they need to add a cash shop to entice people to spend money and they keep it within the scope of cosmetic crap, i'll go for that.
Well from a player's perspective Kilsin, I honestly think there is room for in-game purchases in today's MMOS. In additing a dynamic like this and this is me basing it on my experience, it should come in the form of vanity items only, I hate to say this but I have spent in two months over a $1000.00 in black desert online for vanity items.
Their artists spend a great deal of time making outfits and costumes that are very detailed and fall inline with the lore, style of a Korean based MMO. While I don't think the game should follow what Neverwinter Nights online did in putting in lock boxes and such, I do think SWTOR and BDO would be a good rough draft to follow if there was a in-game purchase. You guys cannot ignore this market as well, while I know I would pay for an item if the artists took time to put into it making my character look good within the game.
I again repeat though, these items should not give any type of super buffs or special privledges, just a cool vanity look.
Remember, I just spent a $1,000.00 on vanity itmes, in a game that cost me $49.00, and would do so in this game if it was done right.
Gomok illustrates why an optional in-game store for visual items is a good idea. Its common place now and is a great revenue stream. It makes sense for the company and there is a large portion of the player base that like this sort of thing. Now i do think that you should not be able to buy things in the store that match in game dropped items in look. Dropped items should be unique in that respect. Then, so should the store items. I have purchased visual items in many games including EQ, Tera, B&S, and SWTOR.
This would also fix your issue with people knowing what you accomplished. You can't get those in game items any other way, visual only or not. I'm good with that. As long as they take the time to make both type of items look good.
RNG boxes are a blech.... I hate that kind of garbage.
And Gomok..... damn son $1000 in a month? You might have a problem! :)
I've played FTP games like many of you I'm sure, and that’s where I leave it, free.
I looked at the cash shops and saw nothing in many games that I wanted.
I don't think I've even played any FTP game more than a month at most, they just lose my interested very quickly as soon as the pay walls start going up.
In FTP games, all I have seen is a bunch of toons running around in flashy outfits that meant nothing at all. It looks like a circus not an RPG.
Cash shops are just a cash grab, not a game.
I don't want to play project runway, I want to play an RPG.
I've never given a cent to FTP cash shops and I never will.
Honestly I'd pay more just to not have that in the game.
If they put one in, then the $1000 I already gave to PRF is wasted I suppose because I won't be playing it, or at least probably not very long.
There are plenty of games that offer that sort of thing, please don't give in to pressure just to please the masses, give us the game promised in the tenants.
I really fail to see your point. This is not a FTP game. There is no pay wall. There is nothing to force you to spend money on the shop. Go play the RPG, ignore the cash shop. Its not a requirement. I just don't see how having an OPTIONAL cash shop that you will never use and will not hinder you is such a big deal.
I have played just about every single FTP MMO out there. Some of them were done very well. No pay wall at all. Take Tera for instance. You can play that game completely unrestricted forever. There is no difference between a free account and a vip account other than the vip levels faster due to perks. Most of the stuff in the shop is mounts and cosmetic crap, and ALL of it except the account flagged mounts and such are tradable. So you can almost always find those items for sale for in game money.
The existance of a cash shop should be entirely unimpactful on anything in the game other than eye candy. And i'd love to see it keep lore friendly if it did exist. I'd really don't want to see people in this game running around in jeans and T-Shirts, swimsuits, and driving cars for mounts. That would completely ruin the entire game.
If they made the cash shop something you had to opt into, and you never even saw the UI for it otherwise, you'd never even know it was there. How does this change your game in ANY WAY? just saying, "Because...reasons" isn't an arguement. Where is the harm?
I really feel the opposition for an optional cash shop is the fact that by subscribing to the game, you have access and the opportunity to gain items, or whatever it may be, through the process of playing the game, not spending RL cash, whether it be cosmetic or not.
Not to try to insult people or anything, but I get that feeling as well. People resent the fact that if they want that cool casmetic they have to pay MORE money. It almost seems like jealousy more than anything else. (again i am not calling anyone out here. It is simply an observation, don't go nuts on me here)
If they made everything in the cash shop tradable then people who want those items but don't want to spend more on them can still get them. This may help curb the RMTers as well. If there is a low market for their services because people can essentially buy money from VR directly (in a round about way) then it might not ruin the game with billions of bots and farmers (and spammers, gods..).
I just can't see where such passionate opposition is coming from if the store is done CORRECTLY. There is a fine line here and it can easily stray, but if done right it could be a huge boon to the company and, ultimately, our gaming experiance. If VR gets more money with less subscriptions then they can continue to make a great game with tons of future content. They could sustain a much lower sub count and still be very profitable that way.
IF it is done correctly.
kellindil said:Not to try to insult people or anything, but I get that feeling as well. People resent the fact that if they want that cool casmetic they have to pay MORE money. It almost seems like jealousy more than anything else. (again i am not calling anyone out here. It is simply an observation, don't go nuts on me here)
You can't be more wrong here. Just about everyone here already paid some amount, often a few hundred, some paid a thousand, for Pantheon, well ahead of its release. Do you seriously think that such people would resent paying for a (cosmetic) item in the cash shop if they though that the concept of paying for items was ok for the game? I could buy a ton of such items if I wanted to. I don't.
Jealousy? No. People who plan on spending a lot of time getting raid (or hard group) items aren't exactly jealous of people wearing cash shop cosmetics.
We simply think that the concept degrades the game. I don't want to see it in the same world where I am.
What would, for example, a decorated soldier, who was in a real combat, think of a cash shop where you could buy Purple Heart-like decorations, and of civilians wearing them? Would he resent that he would have to pay for another if he wanted it? Would he be jealous of them?
No; he would be disgusted.
Now, comparing real combat with MMO raids might be a bit too much, but the logic is the same.
No appearance items, please, no cash shops.
mmos are not real life, and if people are really upset of over not being able to see someone's gear...there is usually this awesome thing called inspect...it will let you see past the cosmetics....
I prefer to tank top end raid bosses in a dress covering my miss matched armor...or the option to Hide my ugly gear in favor of wearing a dress. Heck I want to tank a raid wearing a wedding dress...
So basically what you all are saying is that my wants and money shouldn't allow me something I want? I donated also, and I want to see crafting recipies for wardrobe pieces implemented in the store....I will get my cosmetics....I'll still do stuff to get it made...and I'll pay a tailor to make it for me.
So the game still has immersion value...crafters get work....and i get my pimpin...look
Megaera said:So basically what you all are saying is that my wants and money shouldn't allow me something I want? I donated also
Yes, that's what I'm saying. A game has to have a core of tenets that it adheres to, even when some of the paying customers want something else.
If you start giving everyone whatever they want, you end up on the path of WoW and many other MMOs after WoW, you get a shiny, colorful circus where people have fun for a few months and then quit, eventually finding that the game is more like a candy store than like a realistic world, it just doesn't give a feeling that anything has a value or significance. If everyone is special, no one is.
And no, being able to inspect people and see their actual gear is not a solution, because I want to play in the game world, not to play an UI.
Everybody should be able to see, on the first glance, from distance and without inspecting or any specific actions in the UI, who has what actual (not appearance) items.
The only way how appearance items could work is if some slots are reserved just for them (A scarf? badge? something), so that all the real items are in their separate slots.
But a MMO game needs ideas for visible slots anyway, for the real items, and taking them with non-functional, appearance-only ones might not be the most optimal use of item slots.
From the FAQ:
What is Pantheon’s Revenue Model? Will the game be pay to play, free to play, freemium or what?
We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life.
So it is perplexing why this thread was even created to begin with, and yes disappointing to a level that VR would put this out there considering their stated stance on this issue.
I read every tenant, FAQ and many of the forum threads and articles before making my decision to back this game. Because it does, on paper anyway, go back to the core principals that made the genre great even before it was available in MMO format, I felt compelled to put my money down and support it.
Bringing paper/dice RPG to the online space was a great move back in the day and it was done right at that time. Thus the tenants that this game professes to support.
IF the tenants of this game are:
Then it would seem to me that the underlined parts of those tenants above would be violated by the introdution of a cash shop as follows:
Megaera said:So basically what you all are saying is that my wants and money shouldn't allow me something I want? I donated also, and I want to see crafting recipies for wardrobe pieces implemented in the store....I will get my cosmetics....I'll still do stuff to get it made...and I'll pay a tailor to make it for me.
Yes. Your real life cash should have no value in Terminus, whatsoever.
Megaera said: I've tanked in a fancy dress or robes throughout my mmo days, just because you don't like it doesn't mean you should try to stop others from doing it. Everyone's ideas of aesthetics is different, VR can just put a toggle hide wardrobe in their UI and the people who do not want to see it won't. I just can't wrap my head around some people's fierce opposition to allow a pure cosmetics into a game...and if it's kept purely cosmetic it's easy money to be made. My wife spends 200-500 a year on cosmetic stuff in rift, and she will farm for hours at a camp for in-game items to pair with her wardrobe, or to farm mats for recipies to make wardrobe pieces. Keeping on the that topic, why would you oppose wardrobe recipies that required a time sink and 100% in game materials and crafters for example... Player A wants fairy. Wings...in order to get them they have to find a named fairy...kill it until they get the drop....then go hunting for a special larvae that gives a special silk.....then but a few materials from a vendor....then find a master tailor to make it for them.....and buy the single use pattern from a store.... With that in mind, it works on community building, keeps the game immersive...builds the economy...and allows the tailor to have extra cash to buy some other wares from another crafter. The ppl that do not want to see the wardrobe pieces would simply click hide other players wardrobe in the UI ....and poof everyone's happy
I guess the question should be then, why somone that has everything they want in RIFT would be interested in playing PRF if it cleraly states in the tenants that there will be no cash shop?
Now if VR really feels that fairy wings should be an option, fine but you should still need to earn the pattern by playing the game.
That, and if your going to tank you can do it in a dress, but you should actually be wearing that dress.
kellindil said:Not to try to insult people or anything, but I get that feeling as well. People resent the fact that if they want that cool casmetic they have to pay MORE money. It almost seems like jealousy more than anything else. (again i am not calling anyone out here. It is simply an observation, don't go nuts on me here)
If they made everything in the cash shop tradable then people who want those items but don't want to spend more on them can still get them. This may help curb the RMTers as well. If there is a low market for their services because people can essentially buy money from VR directly (in a round about way) then it might not ruin the game with billions of bots and farmers (and spammers, gods..).
You have it flip-flopped. The jealousy comes from the people that find it unfair that they cant have what they want without investing the time, and choose instead to just buy it. They skip the game to reach a goal with dollars, rather than achieving the goal within the games challenges.
Megaera said: I've tanked in a fancy dress or robes throughout my mmo days, just because you don't like it doesn't mean you should try to stop others from doing it. Everyone's ideas of aesthetics is different, VR can just put a toggle hide wardrobe in their UI and the people who do not want to see it won't. I just can't wrap my head around some people's fierce opposition to allow a pure cosmetics into a game...and if it's kept purely cosmetic it's easy money to be made. My wife spends 200-500 a year on cosmetic stuff in rift, and she will farm for hours at a camp for in-game items to pair with her wardrobe, or to farm mats for recipies to make wardrobe pieces. Keeping on the that topic, why would you oppose wardrobe recipies that required a time sink and 100% in game materials and crafters for example... Player A wants fairy. Wings...in order to get them they have to find a named fairy...kill it until they get the drop....then go hunting for a special larvae that gives a special silk.....then but a few materials from a vendor....then find a master tailor to make it for them.....and buy the single use pattern from a store.... With that in mind, it works on community building, keeps the game immersive...builds the economy...and allows the tailor to have extra cash to buy some other wares from another crafter. The ppl that do not want to see the wardrobe pieces would simply click hide other players wardrobe in the UI ....and poof everyone's happy
If you're my tank I have every right to stop you. I'm looking for a particular experience in the game. I'm looking for a high fantasy, suspensful and compelling gameplay. Someone dancing around in a dress while fighting orcs would look ridiculous and completely break the experience for me.
Megaera said:That didn't quite come out how I wanted, but when your posting while doing other stuff that happens.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that everyone has an opinion on what they would like, and I'm getting the distinct vibe from several people that they only want it their way without really caring what others want. Everyone here will be playing so everyones opinion should bear equal weight.
Everyone doesnt get what they want. That's part of the reason that this team is making this game. They arent trying to make this yet another lowest-common-denominator game. There are plenty of those. They aren't trying to satisfy everyone. They aren't trying to regurgitate the cake-walk game of instant gratification that so many others have embraced. They are trying to hit the market of gamers sick to death of all that fluff and meaningless gumbleball machine nonesense, and hopefully bring the light of the enjoyment in that kind of systems to some who've never tried it, or never gave it a real shot.
You, however, are pressuring to have this game impliment what exists in an abundance of games, and telling the people who "only want it their way" that they get nothing at all.
@Megaera I do get what your saying and I'm still not going to agree with you on it.
I don't think a toggle is required. Just take a look at all the options for armor sets that were available for those willing to complete the work in EQ.
http://wiki.project1999.com/Category:Armor_Sets
I'm sure if PRF has armor sets such as these then you can still have a matching outfit.
Its a goal and something to work for.
As per cash shops providing income for the team, perhaps, but then they will diverting resouces from creating game content (Tenant: "An awareness that content is king").
So I personally would rather see the effort of the devs spent on creating content for the game and not fluf.
Kilsin said:What are your thoughts on purchasing in-game items, where should the line be drawn in your opinion?
Disclaimer: Predetermined CM Content created by myself months ago. :)
I vote no to in-game item purchases, and that includes cosmetic items, vanity pets, etc. No line necessary. The only in-game purchase that I'd like to make is extending my subscription.
Gomok said:Well from a player's perspective Kilsin, I honestly think there is room for in-game purchases in today's MMOS. In additing a dynamic like this and this is me basing it on my experience, it should come in the form of vanity items only, I hate to say this but I have spent in two months over a $1000.00 in black desert online for vanity items.
Their artists spend a great deal of time making outfits and costumes that are very detailed and fall inline with the lore, style of a Korean based MMO. While I don't think the game should follow what Neverwinter Nights online did in putting in lock boxes and such, I do think SWTOR and BDO would be a good rough draft to follow if there was a in-game purchase. You guys cannot ignore this market as well, while I know I would pay for an item if the artists took time to put into it making my character look good within the game.
I again repeat though, these items should not give any type of super buffs or special privledges, just a cool vanity look.
Remember, I just spent a $1,000.00 on vanity itmes, in a game that cost me $49.00, and would do so in this game if it was done right.
Ya, but did that $1000 make up for people fleeing that game in droves since the launch due to this horrible design?
If anything, Black Desert should stand out as yet another game based on a solid premise, completely failing due to their cash shop having more impact on both gameplay and your cosmetic appearance, than anything you actually achieve by playing the game.