hackerssuck said:It will happen at some point in this game's life. How soon depends on how successful the game is. To say otherwise is merely wishful thinking. Doesn't matter if I'm for or against.
I cant say with certainty that you're wrong. But I can say with certainty that it wont happen with Brad at the helm.
If you didnt play Everquest, then you simply dont understand how obstinate the man can be :)
(And in this particular context, I see that as a compliment.)
In my opinion, if everyone has to earn their rewards through play of the game, it is much more enjoyable overall. Players that are purchasing items do not need to go out and earn it, hence you are subtracting the need for players to go out and participate in groups, and the economy. I think Pantheon will be much more successful as an MMO if they keep the requirement that items are earned in game as one of it's 'challenges'. A quality game will have a healthy player subscription base. No need to water it down with in game purchases. That is one of the faults in modern day MMOs. I think the idea of Krono (or purchasing of items that are exchangeable with other players and allow for month subscription replacement) has some merits but ultimately just leads to bots and also remove people from the player driven social economy when they can just pay real money in exchange for cash or loot.
With a game that is very dependent on players stepping in and filling groups there needs to be incentive for people to do that very thing otherwise subscribers may have trouble finding players to do the content with and hence become frustrated with the game.
I played quite a few games with cash shops. EQII's cash shop introduction was the reason I left it. Double-dipping feels greedy to me, but what can you do when there is a market, willing to pay? Did it break DDO when they went FTP and opened a cash shop? Well, for my character at level 4, it meant that almost everything was locked unless I payed my way through or I kept doing the same free content over and over again. Then there was the Premium Membership plan and I just ended up going for that. It somehow still felt so artificial to me. It broke any kind of immersion and respect to walk up to a door and see a dollar sign on it.
I left LotRO when they did it too. Still, the move saved Turbine, in my opinion. Again, however, when my character rode into an invisible wall that had a popup with dollar signs in it, I lost interest in the game entirely. Rift followed suit, years later. Many games just start with cash shops now, like Neverwinter, Blade & Soul and BDO. It's not fun to pick up a chest or item and know that you will likely only be able to open it by paying more money.
I think City of Heroes was perhaps my favorite F2P MMORPG. I was unhappy to learn that they were going to do it, but once I saw how they were doing it, I relented and still had so very much fun.
The talk about having premium servers has always been distasteful to me. Putting up a pay divider between players is unfair. For example, in EQ, customer service was already an hours-long or days-long affair to get the ear of a GM and SOE then starts up a server that has GM events and better customer service for a few bucks more. It was a slap in the face to those players who had been subscribers for a long time, spending hundreds of dollars on the game already. Leave your server's established community and friends to enjoy the level of attention that GMs used to give when EQ started, but it will cost more per month! Just raise the price across the board and give everyone the benefits. Please and thank you.
All pay walls are detrimental to the community as a whole. I want to play with Jenny and Helen, the couple from Springfield, Massachusettes, who have little money to spend each month on entertainment and choose Pantheon as their shared, beloved hobby. I also want to play with Fred, who has his own, very successful YouTube gaming hardware review channel that feeds his gaming addiction with oodles of expendable income to buy everything that interests him because he's still living at home at 32 years old. A pay wall would make me choose between them.
One way to support VR outside of the game is to have charity drives, where the development team recieves a little of the proceeds. EQ had little in the way of marketing merchandise. Pantheon could clean up in this department, like WoW did. Nothing in-game would be changed for having real life junk like pins, stickers, t-shirts and plush animals that "MMmglglrlGLGLGLGRRLGRglrgrgllll." I'd have been all over a skeleton that had a cracked staff, who cackled with a button press. It could have been made with stylized beads with an elastic string going through it that made the collapsing sound and actually collapsed the skeleton when you pressed it. You could have made an Iksar version too that had an Iksar Targ Shield without changing much.The action figures that were released for EQ were great (if limited in race/class combinations), but I never knew about them when they were actually in stores. Where was marketing on that one? Get partners like Loot Crate and 7-11 involved in pushing Pantheon. Stir up some clever marketing about how challenging Pantheon is at movies and on TV.
Here's an idea:
Felicia Day's character is looking like she's kicking ass, but gets harm touched and the YOU DIED text pops up in the chat box.
[Felicia] (growling) "Ugh! I can't beat this stupid ass dire lord alone."
[Snoop Dogg (pops up in upper left corner)] "She needs a group before she gets her ass kicked again.
[Wil Wheaton (pops up in upper right corner)] "I agree. She should definitely call in some friends."
Felicia is joined by five more players.
[Felicia] "Are we ready to do this, adventurers?"
[All (speaking over the internet)] "Absolutely." "Ready." "C'mon!" "I'm pulling!" "DIIIE!! (coughs) Yep. Ready."
They all die when the dire lord runs a short distance, unsnared, and calls out to a nearby camp where a monk and a wizard join him against the party, cutting through them easily by focusing on one character at a time, starting with the casters.
[Samuel Jackson] "What? Aw, hell no."
[Claudia Black] "What the frell was that?"
[Bill Shatner] "That was... unbelievable."
[Wil] "Oooo... Got all of your asses handed to you, huh? Guess it's time to use your best weapon - your brain."
[Snoop] Pantheon doesn't treat you like a child, so you need to step up and act like an adult. Strategize; lead; time your skizzills; watch your position--"
[Snoop (points to the events below as he pauses)] The players demolish the dire lord this time, but he gets off the call to the nearby camp and the monk brings her wizard friend to engage the group, which they are prepared for.
[Samuel] "That's right. Take my Fiery Avenger, mother____er! Ha haaaaa-- Unnnh!"
[Claudia] Don't get cocky!
[Wanda Sykes]"Duuuude, we are kicking so much--"Giant feet come into the picture, and giant fists starts mashing the player characters upon the ground like water balloons before mashing the monk and wizard too. Giant woman walks offscreen.
[Players exclaming over action] "OHH!!!" "Hahaha!" "Damn."
[Elijah Wood] "Holy _bleep_, we got owned by a giant."
[Bill] "That was fun. Let's do it again."[Wanda] "Now what would anybody even do; with boobies that big?"
[Elijah] "Little people can do a lot of big things."
[Wanda] "Pshhh - you wish, little man!"
[Felicia] "Let's resurrect and try something different, like noticing adds and not boobies."
[Claudia] "Well, they rather did fill my screen. I'd call that a successful ad."
[Samuel] "I heard that, sweetie. However, I'm sure she meant to be aware of mobs adding to the fight."
[Claudia] "What mob? There was only one giant. Am I missing something?"
[Bill and Felicia together (scoffingly)] "Newbie."
[Snoop (bringing his finger down)] "--and keep an eye out for adds like sweet, raging giant women."
[Wil (sarcastically)] "They really should have seen tho-- that! coming." (regains professional composure) "Pantheon: Can you rise to the challenge? Go to pantheonmmo.com to find out."
On-screen, two Archai guys run by with the names "Jesse" and "Chester," training the giant woman after them.
[Wil (incredulous)] "Hey! Was that-- Dude!"
[Snoop (nodding)] "Sweet!"
Follow-up Commerical or extended version for Superbowl: Get Seann William Scott and Ashton Kutcher to do a Dude, Where's My Car? spoof called Dude, Where's My Corpse? as if they themselves were in Terminus or perhaps playing Pantheon together over the internet, showing them split-screen, with a giant woman who kicks their butts, but they have to log out, as their play time is up. When they log back in a busy month later, they then start on a quest to find out where they were when they died. I haven't watched DWMC recently enough to put in the in-jokes necessary to script it properly, but there is a start. 8)
Kilsin said:What are your thoughts on purchasing in-game items, where should the line be drawn in your opinion?
Only in-game with in-game currency. Only thing sold outside the game I would like to see is a merchandise shop (t-shirts, boss models, etc., mouse mats, etc.).
Like many ppl Id rather pay more monthly subscription than have a cash shop. Even if they only sold fluff items for reasons stated already.
i was thinking about it i had responded i believe no to another thread due to the fact that devs would be forced into creating new items constant for this aspect. but business wise it would only make sense to have ingame items for-sales.
I believe that for the game itself it would need a cash cow, and in game items could be beneficial for the game. Look at star wars the old republic the in-game items sold are fluff things, such as armor with no stats which you must add the stats to them. mounts, special effects on other items. personally this would work if this motto would be introduce... the game would make more money and in the end have better content added where they could redistribute these earnings to the game.
if there is too much of a percentage of the earnings going to the share holders then this would become how can you make more money... but if it is agreed a small percentage goes to the share holders as it is their right but the other percentages are sent to bettering the game then i would be ok with this model.
so yes for the in-game items as long as it doesn't give players advantages over those that does not wish to purchase in-game items.
The thing to avoid
Money sellers - those that farm just to sell the game, they will ruin the economy and this should not be an in game item to purchase as well with real money from the game itself.
Cheers
B
Pariah said: I would be okay with a cash shop as long as it stuck with Dyes, Cosmetics, Character Makeovers, XP Loss Tonics(Prevents you from losing XP if you die) just a few examples. Just no XP Boosters, stat boosters, crafting materials, weapons/armor, mounts or pets. Sure you could make a lot of money off of those things but I think you'll make plenty of money off of consumables that prevent XP Loss. I feel Mounts/Pets earned in game have more value than swiping $20.
[XP Loss Tonics(Prevents you from losing XP if you die)] = [XP Boosters]
Just sayin...
I'm actually fine with purchase of anything entirely cosmetic, so long as it's obvious that it was a RL purchase. If you want to run around and advertise that you are willing to buy an image rather than earn it, that could be valuable info to your fellow players :)
Nephretiti said:Well - the difference is that MY way allows all of us to get what we want from the game in our own way.
YOUR way lets you play the way you want while at the same time prevents all those folks with loose cash from paying the DevTeam for a pair of fuzzy bunny slippers only they will see while at the same time giving the DevTeam money to "play" with while further developing the game.
Cash shops allow unfair ingame advantages, if you can buy your potions from the cash shop why would you buy from the crafter that makes them. If you can buy your mounts, why would you do an epic quest to get that special mount, most people like to work for and achieve things themselves. Buying from ingame crafters works with the game economy. Buying RMT and from cash shops interferes with that game economy. We don't want gold sellers, power level sellers or any of that ilk. Yes Wow does things like that...been there done that, left shortly after. This is Pantheon, hopefully the community can keep a lid on those that would ruin the game with their mercenary ways. I still like the idea of hunting down botters..pvp style like we did in Lotro hehehe (yes I know that won't happen unless ruleset servers are implemented.)
Cana
tehtawd said: Hello all. Woke up today with this great idea for a cash shop. I debated posting an entire thread on it but decided not to. Do basicly ... Cash shop or the Pantheon store is limited to real life gear. Mugs Pens Notebooks Maps Shirts Ball caps Bottle openers Miniatures of in game bosses or creatures Dice sets Key chains Backpacks Laptop bags Headphones and ear buds World maps Posters Mouse pads Ding button (a 'that was easy' button that makes a ding sound instead) Phone cases Kilsin piniata (he won't read this Hueh Hueh hueh) Sticky notes with funny pantheon loading screen sayings (because eq had some hilarious ones) Game inspired good items. Such as a bottle of juice in the shape of an in game ption of health or mana. Necklaces Bracelets Anklets #jewelry Frisbee Running out of ideas. But I would totally throw money at these things and they won't affect the game in any way whatsoever. Kilsin if you think this needs it's own topic throw it up. Sent via mobile -Todd
We originally had a similar list like this when the store was still up..but that's gone off into the ether somewhere. Still like the idea of physical objects I can display in my den, such as Pantheon art..or any of the numerous items you've posted Tehtawd. That way it has NO bearing on my game, and I don't have to watch people run around in get-ups that have absolutely no bearing on Pantheon lore, gaming etc. Pantheon's world is what the Devs have created, everything makes sense in the Pantheon way. Fluffy tutus belong in some other game where they cater to that sort of thing. :)
Purchasing ingame items just opens up the inevitable temptation (that no game developer has managed to avoid in the games I played) of doing pure cash grab items.
You offer buffs to loot drops, buffs to experience and then it goes downhill.
If you want to allow ingame items to be for sale it should ONLY be purely cosmetic items (no convinience items or any game affecting items). I don't like cosmetic items though, since I like the no customisable visible gear line. I want to be able to see where people have been on the gear they are wearing.
However, if you offer cosmetic items without stats that you can stroll around in outside adventuring then that would be ok.
The whole point of being a subscription game is that the only means of advancing ingame is to actually do things ingame and by throwing cash at it.
Kilsin said:What are your thoughts on purchasing in-game items, where should the line be drawn in your opinion?
Disclaimer: Predetermined CM Content created by myself months ago. :)
NO, NO and no, maybe the only thing would be in game cash currency, other wise NO!
Did i say no?
When cash shops first appeared I thought no big deal. Folks will be able to buy some shiney toys to strut around in. What harm will it do? But, I have seen it time after time, devs promise "No in game advantages, we promise" only to turn around and put ever increasing amounts of items in the cash shop that absolutely give advantages in game. So, please, don't start up that slippery slope. I would be more than willing to pay a higher monthly sub rather than have a cash shop.
1) If you start a cash shop, over time you will add items that actually affect the game. It's a downward spiral that will destroy the game, no matter how innocently it starts. It's like someone trying to prostitute himself/herself just a little bit... sooner or later it slides down into everything you originally promised you will avoid. The only way is to not do it at all, in any measure, don't start it, ever.
2) After Brad said loud and clear that a cash shop won't happen, if you introduce it, no one will trust you (the whole team) on anything ever again. You can extrapolate the consequences from that point on.
3) Does the (real) world need another game where you buy stuff for real money? There's a bunch of them already. I came here because I want a game I can respect.
Just going to guess-timate here, but I would say of all the money I have spent on MMORPGs in the last 17 years, about 1/500th of it was at a cash shop.
If I like a game, I will pay a sub. But if its free to play, I will only pay if I really need to. I also believe there are more people like me out there than you might think.
Since I love to crunch the numbers lets see how you launch an MMO with no cash shop. (FYI I am not an accountant.)
At $15/month that makes each sub = $180/year.
So lets look at how much that nets us.
REVENUES (annual)
Initial Game Purchase?
(No idea here. Is there an initial purchase price?)
Annual Sub Revenue
# subs = gross revenue
5000 = $900,000
10,000 = $1,800,000
20,000 = $3,600,000
50,000 = $9,000,000
100,000 = $18,000,000
EXPENDITURES (annual) This will be all guesswork :)
Salaries
60 employee's @ an avg. salary of $65,000.
~$3,900,000 / year
Office Space/Electricity/Sewer/ISP/Misc./etc.
~$6,000 / month
$72,000 /year
Cloud Services (this is where all the game servers, NOSQL, RDS's, and CDN will reside)
$25,000 / month (this price would vary with player base and hosts required)
~300,000 / year
SOOOOOO
So based on my very, very rough estimates. Annual operating costs could be ~4.2M. Rounded up to $5M.
So if we divide that original $180/year/sub into $5M, we get ~28,000 annual subs needed to break even.
This is how you launch a game with no cash shop.
Cloud computing has made technical costs for game development go way down. Salaries, employees are still the biggest expense.
------------------
More musings:
STARTUP INVESTMENT (not annual cost)
Office Systems (PCs, Monitors, Printers, Switches, etc.)
~$350,000 / year (not a recurring cost)
Probably a bit more since good software devs cost upwards of 100K per year... and cloud services for a MMO will see a lot more data throughput and will demand much faster guaranteed response time than for example a web site, even a high traffic one, so that would cost more as well.
But still, at 100K subs you can probably break even, and there will be some initial price too.
Aethor said:Probably a bit more since good software devs cost upwards of 100K per year... and cloud services for a MMO will see a lot more data throughput and will demand much faster guaranteed response time than for example a web site, even a high traffic one, so that would cost more as well.
But still, at 100K subs you can probably break even, and there will be some initial price too.
Thats why I said avg. Yes some salaries will be high...
Cloud Services. I spent a number of years doing cloud admin (AWS) for a game studio. Our games had millions of players and made 100's of millions of dollars a year. Costs if controlled smartly can be supid cheap compared to what you might think.
Break even is at a much lower number than 100K subs. Much lower.
Aradune said:Beez said: No matter what is said the in game purchases will be more lucrative than the subs. And therefore focus will be there....With all due respect, this is absolutely false. It may be true for some games, but it's absolutely not a universal truth.
I hope you are right but then again why say true for some then say it is false. Perhaps the only ones I've seen were the older games which ended up successful without in game purchases. But the ones out there I play now have the cash cows of in purchase games and are quite successful. I did reposte with a slight different views and I think if one can get it done right would be you and your team.
Beez said:I hope you are right but then again why say true for some then say it is false. Perhaps the only ones I've seen were the older games which ended up successful without in game purchases. But the ones out there I play now have the cash cows of in purchase games and are quite successful. I did reposte with a slight different views and I think if one can get it done right would be you and your team.
A game that allows people to purchase power can have a very lucrative cash shop. Probably more so than with subs. This is in part due to the fact that its easy for anyone to start up the game without a cash investment, and then buy things that increase the rate at which they can level and ease in which they can conquer content. That's fine if that's the kind of game you're going for. You rely not on people staying with the game for a really long time and instead rely on people dipping their toes in, power up mostly solo, buying some stuff, and being bored in a few months. Revenue is in large part earned thru player turn-over.
If instead your game design starts with the premise of longer leveling curves and rewards earned only thru cooperative gameplay then you can't allow the purchase of power and increased ease of play. Revenue here is instead reliant subscriber retention which is more difficult to maintain if people can power up and hit the stagnation of end-game while waiting for the next expansion.
These designs are mutually exclusive. Neither is wrong. They are just different games with different philosophies. You can't co-mingle both philosophies without defeating the intent of one.
Both can be lucrative. So both can be true. But they are vastly different experiences. There are nearing 9000 donators here in large part because we are tired of one and would much rather go back to the other. I for one and sick to death of games whose primary intent is to milk every dime and will do so by placating entitled children. I want a game that is (mostly) uncompromising in their goal of providing a superior gameplay experience in which I feel I actually accomplished something rather than just playing a more complex version of whack-a-mole.
Feyshtey said:Beez said:I hope you are right but then again why say true for some then say it is false. Perhaps the only ones I've seen were the older games which ended up successful without in game purchases. But the ones out there I play now have the cash cows of in purchase games and are quite successful. I did reposte with a slight different views and I think if one can get it done right would be you and your team.
A game that allows people to purchase power can have a very lucrative cash shop. Probably more so than with subs. This is in part due to the fact that its easy for anyone to start up the game without a cash investment, and then buy things that increase the rate at which they can level and ease in which they can conquer content. That's fine if that's the kind of game you're going for. You rely not on people staying with the game for a really long time and instead rely on people dipping their toes in, power up mostly solo, buying some stuff, and being bored in a few months. Revenue is in large part earned thru player turn-over.
If instead your game design starts with the premise of longer leveling curves and rewards earned only thru cooperative gameplay then you can't allow the purchase of power and increased ease of play. Revenue here is instead reliant subscriber retention which is more difficult to maintain if people can power up and hit the stagnation of end-game while waiting for the next expansion.
These designs are mutually exclusive. Neither is wrong. They are just different games with different philosophies. You can't co-mingle both philosophies without defeating the intent of one.
Both can be lucrative. So both can be true. But they are vastly different experiences. There are nearing 9000 donators here in large part because we are tired of one and would much rather go back to the other. I for one and sick to death of games whose primary intent is to milk every dime and will do so by placating entitled children. I want a game that is (mostly) uncompromising in their goal of providing a superior gameplay experience in which I feel I actually accomplished something rather than just playing a more complex version of whack-a-mole.
Well said I guess that is what I'm missing as well the good old mud in the new world. And this is what i expect from Pantheon :-)
Kelem said:Brad specifically said " No Cash Shop, it will NEVER happen" ! So I am sure the masses would revolt if some type of shop was implemented. Back to the T-shirts, maps, mugs, figurines, etc...from a VR website, I see no problem with. Once a shop of any sort is put in, i guarantee you there will start to be a move to keep adding and adding items to that shop, snowball effect
I'd see a high likelihood of my wife and I collecting/purchasing real life pantheon t-shirts and figurines if such a thing were to exist one day.