Kilsin said:What are your thoughts on purchasing in-game items, where should the line be drawn in your opinion?
Disclaimer: Predetermined CM Content created by myself months ago. :)
I don't mind in-game purchases depending on the purchases. This being a game we will be expected to pay a monthly payment, there should already be nothing game altering in a cash shop. I also would like anything to ever be in a cash shop to be there always. As a collector nothing that has driven me more nuts is when I never have the opportunity to purchase some cash shop items before they are gone.
I don't really agree with people being able to pay for name changes either. I would wish these would never make it, but they should considering the financial gain they will bring. Same with race changes etc...
Kilsin said:Folks, please keep this on topic and mature, any personal arguments or attacks will be removed to save the thread from being closed. If you don't agree with someone else's opinion, you are free to state yours and then move on or ignore the other person, do not engage in back and forth arguments as it detracts from the topic at hand and bloats the thread.
Hey, I get where you're coming from (and I know I'm late to the thread), but these posts are really taking me back in time to good old EQ again! This is a good sign for this game :)
That's page 6... not reading any more. PHEW! lol
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Kilsin was People Watching, guys. lol Relax!
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Personally, I don't care if there's a "cash shop" for stuff that doesn't change the game for ME, or alter the difference between your experience and mine. /shrug
You open the door though... I wouldn't go there.
Obviously, Brad has NO INTENTION of going there. I'm glad to know that up front.
Many good posts from many people in here.
Found myself people watching along with Kilsin.
People... we're funny, you know it? :)
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Everquest - TODAY - is what happens when a game goes down that slippery slope.
XP potions. (up to 2x @ 4 hours?) FD potions. Rez potions. Gate potions. Faction Clearing potions! You can even change your race and sex now! Haste potions. AA FOR SALE via Collections. Some of them giving 10 and 12, maybe more, AAs! Even XP for most of them. Very minute amount at high level, but... what if you did the Collection on a lvl 1 or 5 toon? ... Hrmm... I wonder. All available thru RMT one way or another. I want to say, "EQ's original Designer must be turning over in his grave..." ... lol ... but FORTUNATELY, that IS NOT the case!
Plat available online. Think I heard 2 MILLION plat for ... $20US! ROFL!!!!!!!!!! (back in the day you could have bought the Nexus for 2 million i'm guessing :P )
I still play it. I'm having fun playing it. But... I take a few seconds and stare into my screen - almost daily - mourning what EQ has become
Will I switch to Pantheon after ... over 14 years since starting EQ? ABSOLUTELY!
They have trashed what was - IMO - the very best online game that's ever been created.
Certainly the best game I've ever played or even tried. WAS...
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Dullahan said:Consider this: What can you put in a cash shop that could not be used to expand crafting and offer more gameplay?
I see people saying "well furniture or housing would be OK." Well, what about carpentry or masonry? By offering those kinds of things through a cash shop, you are limiting the depth of your virtual world. People say fluff outfits: well what about tailoring or armor crafting? People say special mounts: well, why not have an animal taming trade or animal husbandry to facilitate this.
If developers put as much time and thought into increasing the depth of their virtual world via tradeskills as they did with the marketplace, they would likely attract more subscription money than a cash shop would ever make.
I think Zarriya said it best. Short and sweet. People want a game where we can earn things in the game world. Your look or status in game should not be affected by your real life wealth.
Cash shops are a gimmick. Publishers and studios saw they could not keep a healthy playerbase with the games they created, so they devised a way to milk their players to make up costs or continue development.
When MMORPGs are worth playing, you don't need gimmicks. People will gladly subscribe, and they will continue subscribing as long as your game continues to rock.
Great post, Dullahan! /salute (there were MANY great posts)
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What Everquest is now is the result of game devs who have POOR IMAGINATIONS and, most likely, DO NOT play the game they are building :(
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I wanna know what server Aradune and all the Founders (devs) are going to be playing on! ;)
Kilsin -- thanks for asking the original question. I like the idea that you are trying to make sure the player base is actually in agreement of a tenant of Patheon instead of just assuming that's what everyone wants. I had a feeling that most people would be against it, but you guys now have a pretty good idea of the community's thoughts on the matter. I'm also glad that you guys (all the way up to the top) are in favor of allowing the player base to give contrary views to popular opinions or tenants that are set in stone. I'd much rather have a community that allows the free exchange of ideas than one that limits so-called "negativity."
And for the record, I'm against in-game cash shops but I'm for the idea of in-game shops where you can use in-game currency to buy cosmetic items (as long as the in-game currencty can not be purchased with real-world money). I also don't mind real-world money being used for server transfers, name changes and the like -- things that have nothing to do with actual gameplay.
Any chance of getting a poll on this? I havent read every post but I do get the feeling that the majority think that cash shops (even if just for appearence), just spoils a game. Yes I understand the extra income is useful to the company and to keep the game going, but if people really dont want it, why force it? Surely there are other ways to generate income without making people feel that the game has been spoiled?
I'm against name change services, and dislike server change services. The reason being is it allows people to be jerks, do bad things, and then escape the reputation with their character intact. If a server transfer is allowed, I agree it should have time limitations. Perhaps when you submit it it won't go through for 72 hours, and you can only do it 1 time per 3 months. Plus it should have a decent cost to it to make it so people are less likely to use it.
I do understand that people sometimes want to skip to another server for perfectly legitimate reasons, and have good reason to. But it shouldn't just become the tool of people who want to game the system. This is especially important in a game like what VR appears to have described so far, where your actions have social consequences.
One thing I would like to see if name/server changes are a service that are offered would be in the character bio tab it lists the characters previous name and the date it was changed. Also if the character changes server the previous server name is listed and the date the transfer occured. This way no one will be able to simply change name/server to dump their negative rep.
kelenin said:I'm against name change services, and dislike server change services. The reason being is it allows people to be jerks, do bad things, and then escape the reputation with their character intact. If a server transfer is allowed, I agree it should have time limitations. Perhaps when you submit it it won't go through for 72 hours, and you can only do it 1 time per 3 months. Plus it should have a decent cost to it to make it so people are less likely to use it.
I do understand that people sometimes want to skip to another server for perfectly legitimate reasons, and have good reason to. But it shouldn't just become the tool of people who want to game the system. This is especially important in a game like what VR appears to have described so far, where your actions have social consequences.
Reputation has always been a sore point for me. There is no real in-game policing in a PvE game, aside from not doing business or grouping with someone you know has a bad rep. Well, that doesn't help the people who are new from getting stuck with such a person and it doesn't dissuade new jerks from carrying on in yet another fertile land for their mind-weeds. I've advocated for a simple thumbs up and thumbs down system in a game that means nothing game-mechanics-wise, other than marking that person's account and every character they made or will make carry the same "score" that is visible via a reputation icon after their name - which also appears in chat (toggleable option).
It would go both ways, of course, where a person with an incredibly good reputation would have an icon next to their name. Importantly, it would only show up to you and those that you /share that person's reputation with. Also, if that person has a good or bad reputation among 200 (arbitrary number) or more people on their account, then everyone sees their reputation mark. This system, ideally, would not be present on any possible PvP server, unless it were separate from the PvE servers.
Back on topic about In-Game Cash Shops: Has anyone actually felt that a limited cash shop points to an inevitable change where real life cash presents a leg up in the gaming world? It happened in WoW and they made me sad when offering free level boosts. I was even more disappointed when they offered paid level boosts. They had kept cash-for-advancement out of their cash shop for so long and then did a complete 180 that is more damaging than cash for XP pots and in-game gear. Now that there are really only eleven levels of content, from 100 - 110, I feel that WoW shouldn't charge a monthly fee anymore, instead continuing to offer their paid level boosts, along with tradeskill "training" and gear packages for levels 1 - 90. You would hopefully still have to grind factions and dailies for the mounts and such. Can that be done within the dungeon- and raid-finder? Probably. I've stopped taking WoW seriously; leading me to see it for the children's amusement park that it is when I wanted an experience that approached pen and paper D&D. I have to say that once I stopped expecting anything from the devs, who seem to have hired new writers who got a hard-won C in English courses, the game became a fun, if mindless hack-and-slash. I wish I had always seen it that way, since early WoW was far easier than EQ and featured cartoon characters. I don't know what I was thinking by trying to make it more than it was for the past 12 years.
If that all didn't say it loudly enough - I'm so happy that Pantheon is coming! My teeth are dull and full of cavities from eating MMO candy (B&S, WoW, TOR, Neverwinter) and barely scraping up some nutrition from stale granola bars (Project 1999, Rift). I want something of substance that is fresh and wears the letters off of my new keyboard, like EQ did.
I am fine with it as long as it is cosmetic type stuff only. It helps the studio get a bit more revenue and thereby give us better things in game. Look at GGG model with PoE that is one of the best ones I have seen they make a ton of money off of it and they do not sell anything but cosmetic stuff, armour skins, weapon effects, pets, different spell animations. these kind of things are fine especially if it helps the studio.
It's been stated before and better than I can here but absolutely no to out of game purchases of in game items, even cosmetics. The subscription puts everyone on an even footing and everyone, theoretically, has the ability to get any item in the game. If, however, appearance items are being sold over and above the subscription you either have players with item appearances which are not accessible in game or you cheapen the effort put in to get that full epic set / mount / vanity pet.
Cash shops for in game items also come with their own perverse incentives. Why make the really cool armor model a raid drop when you can put it on the cash shop and improve cash shop sales? Why expend development time and resources on in game models that aren't going to net the company additional revenue through the cash shop? Why make the really cool cash shop items directly purchasable when you can make them a rare loot crate drop?
I'm well past my mid forties and have a lucrative career job. I can easily afford to buy all the appearance items and loot crates I want but I've never made a single cash shop purchase in any game I've ever played. There's nothing interesting or challenging about laying down my credit card. They're just pixels. What is important is that they represent some in game achievement.
I am totally for Cash Shops
I think what people are missing is the choice. The question should be would you pay $20 per month for this game, or would you rather have a small cash shop.
Many of the population can’t even afford $20 per month for a game.
So if you ask the question, would you prefer a dead zone at $20 per month, or a vibrant game with a cash shop.
I know I am playing ESO and when they were pure subscription, they couldn’t get many players. They changed the model to a buy content as you go, and cash shop for mounts, xp scrolls, costumes… and now the game population is much bigger and they are rolling out huge new content patches all the time.
So I would look at ESO's revenue module as the standard, because the complaints are minimal there now.
No cash shop of any kind please.
I don't care if some people can't afford $5 more to keep it out of the game. Somehow those same players can pay way more than that in the cash shop? Doesn't add up.
I'd pay way more than $20/month if it meant a good game that goes back to the roots of RPG gaming.
If it means fewer players are there, so be it; I'd opt for quality over quantity any day.
If Pantheon has a cash shop, I likely won't play it.
Really the only thing cash shops do for you is keep the cost of admittance down so you can quickly recycle players. However, if you make the game difficult/challenging, but still have a cash shop, then it becomes pay-2-win and that is about as bad as you can be. There is no way a "hardcore" or more challenging type game would have a cash shop without "press button to win" items. A super casual game doesn’t have this problem because the game is easy to begin with.
I don't care if super casual, WoW style free to play games with cash shops exist because the market is big enough for everyone but they are just not for me. Frankly, there are already too many games like that now, why add another one?
I think that if Pantheon is going to succeed it's going to have to stand out in the market. Right now, subscription based games without cash shop is about as unique as you can get because I don't know if any exist.
chenzeme said:Any chance of getting a poll on this? I havent read every post but I do get the feeling that the majority think that cash shops (even if just for appearence), just spoils a game. Yes I understand the extra income is useful to the company and to keep the game going, but if people really dont want it, why force it? Surely there are other ways to generate income without making people feel that the game has been spoiled?
Checked all the buttons, didn't see a poll button. Think the admins will have to add it in if they choose to allow the community to do polls. I think would be an awesome idea actually for there to be a subforum just for polls on certain issues , my 2cents * cheers :)
Kelem said:chenzeme said:Any chance of getting a poll on this? I havent read every post but I do get the feeling that the majority think that cash shops (even if just for appearence), just spoils a game. Yes I understand the extra income is useful to the company and to keep the game going, but if people really dont want it, why force it? Surely there are other ways to generate income without making people feel that the game has been spoiled?
Checked all the buttons, didn't see a poll button. Think the admins will have to add it in if they choose to allow the community to do polls. I think would be an awesome idea actually for there to be a subforum just for polls on certain issues , my 2cents * cheers :)
We used to have polls but they were abused so we removed them, we may have them again on the new forums but it will most likely be admin only controlled to stop it happening again.
....no... our mature player base abused something...that would never happen. ..I had more to my post but my phone cut it out for some reason.
Yes to shops but only for services and housing/wardrobe recipies. Those recipes would require players to do in game content to get their pink polka dotted robe or table cloth
Mod Edit: Consolidated double post as it is against forum rules.