Please, no.
Cosmetics such as hair dyes and tattoos are okay I guess. Not sure. Hmm...
Yes to physical merchandise such as t-shirts, coffee mugs, key chains, iPhone cases, etc.
I left Black Desert Online after just two months because of rampant cheating and the cash shop. Initially, the cash shop didn't appear to have pay to win items but gradually they started appearing, like the camo suit for example. Then, people needed to buy Tears just to have a chance at the bosses because they will just one shot you with no way to avoid or mitigate the attack. Seriously flawed Korean game designed from the ground up to be cash shop driven but then sold to the western audience as buy to play. I'm still undergoing therapy.
If the team needs to generate additional revenue without resorting to physical goods, how about selling additional character slots? Say the game comes with 4, 6 or 8 character slots at $14.95 a month, you can select the veteran subscription that provides an additional 3 character slots for an extra $5 and then it's $5 per additional slot beyond that. Regular accounts can upgrade anytime. Can also downgrade anytime as long as those slots are empty.
Perhaps on the trial server, there is some way for people to keep playing beyond the first 10 levels without buying the game such as a 40 hour per week pass for $5?
You know, because of the joy my husband gets when he purchases some really amazingly beautiful angel wings to go on his character, or a cute kitten that follows him around ... I like the idea of the cash shop. But I think it would be better if it was something 'in game' you could earn through killing rare mobs etc. When in World of Warcraft we camped for weeks to get a rare-spawn devilsaur, the moment he got it was a lot more bright rather than the price tag of just 'buying' it. When he looks at his pet roster and see's that rare one he got he remembers what he went through to get it. Purchasing cash shop items doesn't give the same experience.
I'm a bit torn here because I want the game to be healthy, and if a cash shop can bring in some money to the company to further help the games prosperity I say go for it. But ... take light steps.
You wouldn't add a CC pet to a Templar becuse it steps on the shoe's of the CC classes
just like you wouldn't add a cosmetic to the game which could have been crafted by a player.
-Todd
What Fairchild said.
Keep everything in game. Equally accessable with time and dedication. Outside services like server transfers and what not would be fine. For those worried about reputation, set up some kind of tracking system where you can see where and who they were before. Sometimes people just want to name change for fun and not to hide who they were. And sometimes people want to transfer servers because they have friends on another.
Amsai said:Keep everything in game. Equally accessable with time and dedication. Outside services like server transfers and what not would be fine. For those worried about reputation, set up some kind of tracking system where you can see where and who they were before. Sometimes people just want to name change for fun and not to hide who they were. And sometimes people want to transfer servers because they have friends on another.
How does P99 succeed to keep running their servers with almost 2k players on it everyday without any source of income ?
I think subscription fee is profitable as it is without having a cash shop in the way.
Else might as well go back to some triple A publishers and get a garbage game out with a nice cash grab.
Consider this: What can you put in a cash shop that could not be used to expand crafting and offer more gameplay?
I see people saying "well furniture or housing would be OK." Well, what about carpentry or masonry? By offering those kinds of things through a cash shop, you are limiting the depth of your virtual world. People say fluff outfits: well what about tailoring or armor crafting? People say special mounts: well, why not have an animal taming trade or animal husbandry to facilitate this.
If developers put as much time and thought into increasing the depth of their virtual world via tradeskills as they did with the marketplace, they would likely attract more subscription money than a cash shop would ever make.
I think Zarriya said it best. Short and sweet. People want a game where we can earn things in the game world. Your look or status in game should not be affected by your real life wealth.
Cash shops are a gimmick. Publishers and studios saw they could not keep a healthy playerbase with the games they created, so they devised a way to milk their players to make up costs or continue development.
When MMORPGs are worth playing, you don't need gimmicks. People will gladly subscribe, and they will continue subscribing as long as your game continues to rock.
Kilsin said:lyrina said:Kilsin said:Why, though? The explanation is what I am interested in the most mate :)
Well, i remember alot of games, that start selling "useless ingame items", like pets (cats, dogs), 'nicer looking' cloth and similar stuff. After awhile, they start selling EXP, HP, Mana, Whatever-Potions. Later on Charslots and oder Powerups... So... If you prevent this kinda sale from the very beginning, it wont end up is such a disaster. I think, you should stick with RL Shop, like Shirts and other Gimmicks. Ingame-Sales should be managed by players, w/ their own looted or handcrafted stuff, to keep the economy going and not giving rich players 'easy mode'.
Yeah, that is understandable man, a lot of games have abused the microtransaction system to milk gamers, which is why it has such a bad name now but there are ways it can be done properly to help support a game.
Also, we have already stated for the last 2 years that we are sub based and have no intention of a cash shop, it is a CM question. ;)
In-game cash shops in MMO's is now a deal-breaker for me. You can thank the ArcheAge, H1Z1, EQ, EQ2, SWTOR devs for their abuse of the cash shop system. I don't mind paying a monthly sub, but bringing real life money into the game world completely ruins immersion for me. I play games to have fun outside of work, not to be reminded how my play time can translate into real life money.
I disagree Kilsin, I have yet to see an in-game cash shop done properly. Every single time an MMO has had one in the past, the devs promise that it will not be Pay-2-Win, only purely cosmetic items, etc., etc., and it's complete bogus! Can anyone name a single MMORPG with a cash-shop that is not P2Win in one way or another?
NOTE: Charging for account related services such as name changes or server transfers are fine, and I do not consider them to be in the same category as an In-game cash shop.
I'm fine with cosmetic cash shops to a degree. As long as you can still obtain great looking gear outside of paying for it, I'm quite OK. Different style mounts that have no improvement over the basic mount all other players receive is OK too. Please don't allow any sort of RL money <-> In-Game Currenty, e.g Eve Plex or GW2 Gold, this really kills a MMO for me (even though I've dropped plenty of cash to stay competitive, its still a turn off).
I think the following link does a pretty good job explaining the darker side of cash shops in game...
https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-whales-of-microtransactions-and-the-elephant-in-the-room
Now, while that obviously is in reference to the more nefarious "pay to win" model, I'm still opposed to cash shops for strictly cosmetic items (though cash for services like name changes or server transfers is fine). While the moral concerns of preying on people with addictive personalities are lessened with a cosmetic shop instead of a pay to win shop, I still feel those moral concerns are valid as it has been shown, I believe, that even cosmetic shops tend to be heavily supported by a small portion of the player base.
Even if we ignore that concern, a cosmetic cash shop can easily eat up resources. If the game's main source of revenue comes from optional cosmetic items, it can incentivize the game's developers to allocate their time towards these cash shop items instead of bug fixes or game improvements - after all, the cash shop directly influences revenue, the game merely provides a platform for the cash shop. Maybe in a perfect company, the devs / management won't fall into that trap, but it's a very easy trap to fall into once Pandora's box has been opened.
I think a subscription model is a much safer alternative. The driver of revenue is how many people are playing the game. Therefore, in order to increase revenue, the primary way to do that is going to be getting more people to play. I'm sure marketing plays a big role in that, but I would wager the biggest factor is how good the game is. A better game will generally have more fans - and more loyal fans.
One thing I *would* be interested to see is a subscription system that is tiered by time played. Most subscription systems I've ever seen are a flat rate per month, so for example, 15 dollars a month, regardless of how much you play. What if there were several options here? Perhaps 'casual' - 62 hours playable per month (averaging 2 hours per day in a 31 day month) for $9.99, 'standard' - up to 124 hours playable per month (4 hours a day) for 14.99, or 'hardcore' - unlimited play for 19.99 a month.
Obviously, those numbers are just arbitrary for illustrative purposes, but the point is that players could pay more or less depending on how much they think they want to play the game. A casual player wouldn't feel he was making as much of an investment to play a game he's only able to play for a few hours on the weekends or something, while the hardcore gamers are willing to pay more because they're getting their money's worth.
no, please
as other have said, slippery slope, pandoras box, etc.
other games started with pure fluff, but often an item you could still find in-game. then it becomes store exclusive 'fluff'....then it becomes xp pots, death penalty eraser, then actual item slots/high end items (looking at you, RIFT)
i understand the money potential is there and hard to resist. i understand the company needs to make money. i just dont think such a path, however innocent it may start, ever leads to a good place, and/or a happy playerbase (imho). i dont think these fears are unfounded, either.
I am also a no vote on the in game cash shop.
I think the Physical Items Mugs, Shirts, Hats, Replicas of Boss MOBs and Replica clothing / Armour from the game; maybe an actual book of maps would be cool.
You could take it even further like selling real Horses and Giant Flying Lizards and stuff, the Competition at WOW would be so jealous !
Nanoushka said:I'd rather not see it all.
I'm fine with "out of game" items, like t-shirts, figurines, mugs, whatever. Not a fan of in game items tho, even if it's just fluff.
No Cash shops..no pay to win. An exterior site to buy t-shirts, hoodies, mugs, bumper stickers, Pantheon art.. I would be happy with that. :)
Cana
Heebs said:I think the following link does a pretty good job explaining the darker side of cash shops in game...
https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-whales-of-microtransactions-and-the-elephant-in-the-room
Now, while that obviously is in reference to the more nefarious "pay to win" model, I'm still opposed to cash shops for strictly cosmetic items (though cash for services like name changes or server transfers is fine). While the moral concerns of preying on people with addictive personalities are lessened with a cosmetic shop instead of a pay to win shop, I still feel those moral concerns are valid as it has been shown, I believe, that even cosmetic shops tend to be heavily supported by a small portion of the player base.
Even if we ignore that concern, a cosmetic cash shop can easily eat up resources. If the game's main source of revenue comes from optional cosmetic items, it can incentivize the game's developers to allocate their time towards these cash shop items instead of bug fixes or game improvements - after all, the cash shop directly influences revenue, the game merely provides a platform for the cash shop. Maybe in a perfect company, the devs / management won't fall into that trap, but it's a very easy trap to fall into once Pandora's box has been opened.
I think a subscription model is a much safer alternative. The driver of revenue is how many people are playing the game. Therefore, in order to increase revenue, the primary way to do that is going to be getting more people to play. I'm sure marketing plays a big role in that, but I would wager the biggest factor is how good the game is. A better game will generally have more fans - and more loyal fans.
One thing I *would* be interested to see is a subscription system that is tiered by time played. Most subscription systems I've ever seen are a flat rate per month, so for example, 15 dollars a month, regardless of how much you play. What if there were several options here? Perhaps 'casual' - 62 hours playable per month (averaging 2 hours per day in a 31 day month) for $9.99, 'standard' - up to 124 hours playable per month (4 hours a day) for 14.99, or 'hardcore' - unlimited play for 19.99 a month.
Obviously, those numbers are just arbitrary for illustrative purposes, but the point is that players could pay more or less depending on how much they think they want to play the game. A casual player wouldn't feel he was making as much of an investment to play a game he's only able to play for a few hours on the weekends or something, while the hardcore gamers are willing to pay more because they're getting their money's worth.
$15.00 a month is pretty cheap entertainment these days. I can go to a bar and spend more than that for 2 drinks and a meal. :)
Be wary of the hidden evil some will call "character transfers"
surely reasonable, they say.
Not so,
it is evil, it is the floodgates to RMT and plat selling.
Because they wil transfer mudflationary amounts of plat and gear with them.
Instead insist that they be content with their portion, they chose one server and that character will die on that server- oh the Real persons personal freedom is there- they can start a new char on another server- I mean- people have alts right? SS DD I mean! ST DS! ( Same Thing, Different Server)
Kelem said:Kilsin said:I really like the varied replies, it is a touchy subject I know but one that is good to speak openly about and voice your opinion on so our community can come together and unite on things like this. :)
I don't make these posts to troll you folks, I promise, even though it is tempting sometimes :D
I knew it ! You just wanted to see how fast you could get everyone fired up :) Let me explain something Mr. Kilsin :P What you have here is a very dedicated, very passionate community, who are willing to fight tooth and nail to make sure this game is a beacon for future MMO's to follow. Be very very careful the questions you choose to toss out there...lol You are troding on holy ground :)
It is quite the opposite my friend and I don't think people here quite understand that by me asking this question and giving you all a platform to voice your opinion on actually helps you as a community reinforce your thoughts on things like this for anyone watching/reading, especially in light of recent events with other games.
By talking about this in a mature fashion and expressing your opinion for these types of "cash shops" it sends a clear message to those who are thinking about going down that path in the future, just look around at the gaming industry at the moment and see what it has done to many games!
Conversation is healthy and I am actually doing you all a favour by raising this issue to talk about, I can't help it if some people take it literally and think that even after we have expressed our dislike for them and even removed our own store that we would still go ahead with one, that is on them, not me ;)
I am SORELY dissappointed in those voting no and for the reasons they are giving. You should not be able to determine whether or not someone plays with fluff items in-game. I agree that it may cause YOU to lose your immersion, but like I said - simply adding a widget to turn that stuff off from your own view would be enough to remove that "worry" from your play style. By voting no, all you are doing is corrupting the play of those that want the fluff items. You should be ashamed of yourselves!
If however a cash shop opens up and it DOES lead to affecting in-game mechanics in any way (other than fluff/appeal) then I will most likely log out for the final time. I think they should either have a crafting class that creates housing items (furniture etc.) like EQ2 then thats great. But if they do not - then they simply must have a shop if for no other reason than to let me buy a friggen dining room table for my in-game house that has no effect on game play or mechanics in any way.
Again, you should have a strong desire to NOT turn away potential players (and subs) just because YOU think they shouldn't be able to wear a pink tutu and a racoon skin hat. Let them wear whatever crap that want - so long as we can turn that crap off from our own client it should have no effect on you in any way.
For those wondering - no - I would not wear that fluffy crap. I WILL be utilizing the "don't crayloa-puke on me" widget.
Nephretiti said:...turn that stuff off from your own view would be enough to remove that "worry" from your play style. By voting no, all you are doing is corrupting the play of those that want the fluff items. You should be ashamed of yourselves!If however a cash shop opens up and it DOES lead to affectin...
That's often the argument in favor of a bad idea. The problem is that people play the game for rewards - rewards can be levels, XP, power, items, or fluff. By making the rewards buy-able, you make it a RMT game.
@Nephretiti
Dullahan summarizes my thoughts well on why I would be opposed to one. Regardless if whether I could /turn off cosmetic items, if you allow for the purchase of them, you trivialize any crafter or tradeskill gameplay that could have created them. If there is no trade skill created yet to craft houses/boats etc., I would rather than be expansion content than a cash shop purchase.
And I'd argue, that more people are being attracted to Pantheon due not having a cash shop - it is a marketing element that makes the game unique compared to any mainstream MMO today. I'd argue that if Pantheon did a 180 and said they would have a cash shop, they would lose more subs than they would gain from having one.
I still say you are trying to force your will upon folks and how they like to play. Let the player make the decision as to how they play. I understand how you want to play. It is the same way I want to play. But I would rather let the masses pay for fluff. Your way of thinking is why EQ2 did so poorly vs. WoW. It is one thing to want a REAL game with some challenge but when it comes down to it - the masses pay the bills. Rather than try to make a go at it with just the real gamers (us) I would like to see an attempt to appease the masses in such a way as it has virtually no affect on us. Just give us the widget to turn that crap off.
