I agree. I like how it was done in EQ2 - instanced housing. I HATED how it was done in UO and Vanguard. There were friggen houses EVERYwhere. How does someone run off to explore the woods when "the woods" consisted of three small sticks with leaves on top placed between two houses? THAT killed UO for me. THAT killed Vanguard for me. I have read there will be some sort of collusion between these types of structures in PRotF and I do NOT want to influence development of this in any way - I want to see it first. THEN i will give you my views. But mostly - I think I do NOT want to influence OTHER peoples playstyle. If someone wants to run around in Crimson Pink armor becasue she likes it then I am all about her being able to see her crimson pink armor. At the same time - it isn't very realistic is it? If someone else doesn't want to see it - they should be able to select NOT to see that color for the armor. ANything that we allow someone TO DO - we should try our best to not force someone else to do it. Unless it is game mechanics. Those should affect everyone equally. But fluff? Give em the option one way or the other.
lyrina said:Kilsin said:Why, though? The explanation is what I am interested in the most mate :)
Well, i remember alot of games, that start selling "useless ingame items", like pets (cats, dogs), 'nicer looking' cloth and similar stuff. After awhile, they start selling EXP, HP, Mana, Whatever-Potions. Later on Charslots and oder Powerups... So... If you prevent this kinda sale from the very beginning, it wont end up is such a disaster. I think, you should stick with RL Shop, like Shirts and other Gimmicks. Ingame-Sales should be managed by players, w/ their own looted or handcrafted stuff, to keep the economy going and not giving rich players 'easy mode'.
Yeah, that is understandable man, a lot of games have abused the microtransaction system to milk gamers, which is why it has such a bad name now but there are ways it can be done properly to help support a game.
Also, we have already stated for the last 2 years that we are sub based and have no intention of a cash shop, it is a CM question. ;)
Kelem said:Pandora's box. It leads to other things that lead to other things that soon just get out of hand, next thing you know you have a cash shop. Out of game items as said by Nanoushka sure I would actually like those. Such as the items that some of us are waiting on for supporting the game, maps, lore books, etc..
It can do if the company that owns it has huge money gains on their mind or an ulterior motive but it isn't a general rule of thumb for every company and all games, we have all just had bad experiences with cash shops and tend to now think every cash shop is bad.
Zarriya said:Kilsin said:lyrina said:a simple: NO
Why, though? The explanation is what I am interested in the most mate :)
In a game like Pantheon, players want to be able to earn their items in game. It shows that regardless of how much money you could throw at the game in Real Life, the only way you can earn items is through your efforts in game. The type of players Pantheon attracts respect (and look forward) to the fact that a player put effort into gaining a mount rather than buying one on the cash shop.
This is true but a cosmetic items store would be fine in instances like this then, as long as it was lore friendly and priced reasonably. The only thing people are scared of is others being able to purchase an advantage in-game over them, which is a reasonable fear, I have it too.
For the record, though, we have already stated for the last 2 years that we are sub based and have no intention of a cash shop, it is a CM question ;)
Kilsin said:it is a CM question. ;)
Be honest, you just wanted to cause some trouble on (most people's) Monday morning. <3
ƃuᴉuɹoɯ ʎɐpsǝn┴ for you right Kil?
Kilsin said:What are your thoughts on purchasing in-game items, where should the line be drawn in your opinion?
Disclaimer: Predetermined CM Content created by myself months ago. :)
It has been said there would not be a cash shop, period. I don't see how this topic is relevant or necessary.
fazool said:OMG - I read this and the fact the Kilsin posted it and I got this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.
This topic creates a terrible visceral response in me. Let me explain why:
Back in the day SOE posed a question to get people's thoughts on this topic. There was an overwhelming response from the forums screaming "Oh, Hell no!". Then they ran an in-game poll and you could tell the answers were very negative because they kept making announcements that were "sales pitchy" trying to soothe everyone that this won't ruin the game. In other words, they (Smed?) made up their mind and were trying to sell the customer-base on the idea.
Well, it started out innocently enough with : "nothing that could help you in game. Just appearance items." There is a huge fallacy in that argument, however. A lot of people strive for appearance items (search for my post about the purple pants). Strutting around with your Fiery Avenger was a very big deal. The appearance thing totally trivialized that concept and suddenly anyone could have any cool look they wanted without have to hunt for it (save time and effort) without having to research and find it (save time and effort) without having to quest for it (save time and effort) and without taking any risks to get it (save time and effort).
Even the "appearance only" argument totally dumbs down the game and serves the instant gratification demographic.
Appearance is one reward of the gameplay and letting people buy it, is the same as letting them buy power, level, skills or experience.
Then, to make things even worse, they started adding potions. Again, the argument being "this is temporary so won't permanently give you an advantage in the game". *BS*! I could spend RL money and buy hundreds of mana, clarity, healing and XP pots and be light years ahead of other players who don't spend RL money.
Then, continuing their trend of doubling down on a bad idea, they started selling armor kits. Their argument being "new players need to catch up o the mature population"....This one is so game-ruining I don't even know how to explain it.
There should never, ever, ever, ever be any in-game purchases of any type. They are a game degrading, ruinous short-sighted money grab. They generate a little cash at the beginning but they make the game shallow and shorten its life.
I said it then (and was right) so I'll say it now, with that proven experience :
Oh, Hell no!
Haha, you can relax and breath easy, we have already stated for the last 2 years that we are sub based and have no intention of a cash shop, it is a CM question for discussion and to help reinforce our communities views on such topics ;)
I really like the varied replies, it is a touchy subject I know but one that is good to speak openly about and voice your opinion on so our community can come together and unite on things like this. :)
I don't make these posts to troll you folks, I promise, even though it is tempting sometimes :D
I would prefer no, but I do not think (as I have famously posted months ago) that a modern MMO in todays market can survive without one. And I would be very surprised to see any MMO survive (and grow) on sub only basis anymore. But gaming is a business, and investors want a return on that investment.
If you paid $15/month to play EQ 16 years ago, the equivalent monthly rate today would be $21.00/month. Obviously other US services such as cable have not followed that inflation model doubling their fees numerous times over the years.
I am OK with a cash shop, given nothing is tradable outside your account, no RNG boxes for gambling and nothing is P2W.
- NO RMT
- NO RNG boxes
- Items purchased are bound to the account
- NO P2W
- NO Pay to advance features like more inventory space, faster mount, etc.
Kilsin said:The only thing people are scared of is others being able to purchase an advantage in-game over them, which is a reasonable fear, I have it too.
Actually, while this is obviously a bad thing, it isn't my main motivation for disliking cash shops. I simply feel a game world should be complete within itself, and the only time the real world and that in game world should touch, is when you pay for your sub and that's it.
I've never been annoyed at seeing sparkly mounts or cute pets from the cash shop on someone else, if it's there I perfectly understand people will buy it. I never have tho as it feels off to me. It shouldn't be in the "real world", it should be in game and only there.
Hard to explain it well as it's a feeling.
Kilsin said:I really like the varied replies, it is a touchy subject I know but one that is good to speak openly about and voice your opinion on so our community can come together and unite on things like this. :)
I don't make these posts to troll you folks, I promise, even though it is tempting sometimes :D
But, the community is not going to unite over this topic. We have a ton more members now (the VIP group is larger than the entire active members when i joined :) ), and some will want the ability to purchase items in game, even if they are not p2w items. There will always be the other side, which do not want any kind of cash shop as relating to anything worn, seen, built, eaten, etc... In Game. Tshirts, caps, mugs, etc... should be sold externally, if for no other reason than to lessen the temptation to sell (for example) non-stat decorative clothing. First, all of these items should be created by in game crafters so that crafters have multiple avenues of potential earning. Second, if you sell the non-stat decorative clothing, then why not the housing items such as chairs and tables... slippery slope.
I'm against the ingame cash shop and, yes, I feel trolled by Kilsin. He truly is the Crusher of Dreams. ;P
Stuff like renaming potions, character visual/sex change potions, additional character slots seem ok. They don't really hurt the game world in any way. They're not fun to pay for but you can't have people doing those things all the time anyway. You should get 1 free renaming potion per account and 1 free visual change per character.
Anything else cheapens the value of real in-game items. When you can pay $15 to buy an awesome looking suit of armor, whats the point of even playing?
No, But...
if there must be a cash shop, I would not mind, Caps, mousepads, cloth maps, T-shirts (basic Pantheon T-Shirt costs X, Race/class Tshirt costs X+?), epic weapon key-chains- Shot glasses, Mugs (Mugs with a Global map?- Arty, Archai mug that has crevasse like veins that change color if a hot beverage is put in? for X+++?)
half snow globes, or sand globes for a twist. Chince.
In other words, gift ideas for SO's who play, or cool stuff for the fanboi.
However one thing that WoW did that I thought was cool was the selling of a 3D printed replica of your character, on a little stand under a glass/plastic dome.
You would only get what current armor your character had at the time of purchace of the replica/doll. So theoretically, once you got your epic you could buy another one to show the epic. Potential multi-PoS opportunities for players who like Alts, (20% discount to players that can prove mentoring down X times? for X amount of time?)
and that's IT. Nothing else no in game items please.
Kilsin said:What are your thoughts on purchasing in-game items, where should the line be drawn in your opinion?
Disclaimer: Predetermined CM Content created by myself months ago. :)
It always starts with a few cosmetic itesm then slowly in game items that serve a purpose. Horrible slope to get on
Kilsin said:lyrina said:a simple: NO
Why, though? The explanation is what I am interested in the most mate :)
Heres my reasoning...Once the company starts designing for the Cash shop then they wont design for the game or desing items to steer you towards the cash shop. take EQ2 for example, when the game launched there were all kinds of Tradeskill recipies for making all different kinds of furniture, once the Cash shop went in and they started selling furniture items in the cash shop the tradeskill end of it dried up. Bad ass looking armor doesnt drop in game, but you sure can buy it in the shop...thats my problem with a cash shop even if its cosmetic only
Simply no to any kind of ingame items cash shop, including "fluff" as many players work hard to ahve their fluff ingame they can show off. Never diminish a players hard work and dedication by selling it on a shop for others to buy.
That said I rather like the idea of being able to buy t-shirts, caps, mugs, and so on with items or characters from the game on them.
Though that can be done from the website rather than in game.
Walking down the long dimmly lit hallway, the sounds of my footsteps reverberating off the walls back at me... I see ahead the "no mans land" .. I am nervous, but I haul my shoulders back and straighten my back. "It`s a furocious room" my inner protector warns. As I reach for the handle I think of what I might say , than with my courage in check, I enter.
Oh.. Not so bad.
I have posted my thoughts on this a little for a thread called Roleplay. But perhaps I can be a little more through.
Cash shop... pretty scary words. Everything that has been said already has very valid points. If your cash shop is used to sell account items, Inventory/ bank space etc as was stated above by several people, than this seems to be ok? I am NOT a fan of anything being in the cash shop that in ANY way large or small, for any period of time, gives anyone a leg up over another player. NONE, NOTHING, ZIP!
That being said, I also agree that a cash shop is a great source of revenue for the developers to continue bringing us new content and seriously people lets be honest, If we don`t have a nice balanced flow of new content coming at us every few months or so people will become bored and even some will rage in the forums. (seen it, burnt the t-shirt)
A cash shop can be done, but I do agree it is a slippery slope. Don`t add anything to the cash shop that allows for instant gratification. Whatever can be purchased , make it so you still have to use the mechanics of the game to make it. EX: For cosmetic items, housing items (as this is really all your cash shop should hold IMO) make them simply "Patterns". You still have to go trudge through the game world to get the mats/ingredients. Mayhap some of those mats drop from a dungeon boss, mayhap that some are just regular plants/ore you find throughout the world. Point is, it can be done without it interupting the game flow and becoming P2W/P2P .
As a role-player/gamer..I have no problem buying the "Patterns" and than gathering up a group to go adventuring to find what I need in order to craft the item I just purchased. It`s wonderful to have the ability to instantly put it on or place it in your house or whatever. But I like to work for what I have. I like to feel accomplished.
Nough said.
Best to you all!
Sevens said:Kilsin said:lyrina said:a simple: NO
Why, though? The explanation is what I am interested in the most mate :)
Heres my reasoning...Once the company starts designing for the Cash shop then they wont design for the game or desing items to steer you towards the cash shop. take EQ2 for example, when the game launched there were all kinds of Tradeskill recipies for making all different kinds of furniture, once the Cash shop went in and they started selling furniture items in the cash shop the tradeskill end of it dried up. Bad ass looking armor doesnt drop in game, but you sure can buy it in the shop...thats my problem with a cash shop even if its cosmetic only
I see this point ^^^^^.
Kilsin said:I really like the varied replies, it is a touchy subject I know but one that is good to speak openly about and voice your opinion on so our community can come together and unite on things like this. :)
I don't make these posts to troll you folks, I promise, even though it is tempting sometimes :D
I knew it ! You just wanted to see how fast you could get everyone fired up :) Let me explain something Mr. Kilsin :P What you have here is a very dedicated, very passionate community, who are willing to fight tooth and nail to make sure this game is a beacon for future MMO's to follow. Be very very careful the questions you choose to toss out there...lol You are troding on holy ground :)
No,
Account services is fine ie:(server change) but no name change, if this game is about community then character name should be the most important thing to remember.
Regarding in-game cash shop:
- anything toward appearance items take away arts from the game itself. Nothing I hate more then farming hours for an item and find out it has a generic look. Do you want your game to look like an Halloween party ? ie: (Guild Wars 2)
- any xp boost take away from the game experience. If the game is fun, players shouldn't see the need to lvl faster.
At the end of the day, does VR want to make a good game that will last for generation and be remembered like EQ is or make a cash grab game that will last a month or two?
*cough* does nobody else keep tiny details of what Brad says hidden in your heads?
Let me remind you:
Ref: BLOG / How to respond to skeptics.. / Aradune 'oops is that another train' McQuaid
Quote: "That's why, for example, Pantheon will be free to play the first 10 levels or so. No up-front cost, so no real risk in trying it out. "
If a 'free until level 10-ish' model is used (and i understand why... get them in, get them hooked, watch them stay!) then this opens up the possibility of a 'hybrid-Shop-Model.
HYBRID-MODEL CURRENCY: Pantheon_Shop_Currency
Free-players : can only 'buy' Patheon_Shop_currency with $$$
Subscribers : Get a monthly allowance of X Pantheon_Shop_Currency. Can buy 'extra' for $$$
HYBRID-MODEL ITEMS: Item_List
Eg Extra Character-Slot (for you alt-aholics like me) = 100 Pantheon_Shop_Currency
Eg Move-Server (for 1 char) = 400 Pantheon_Shop_Currency
Eg Dagger of 'Kilsin_level_OP_Backstabiiness' = 2500 Pantheon_Shop_Currency
Eg Calico Cat (fits neatly into backpack) = 275 Pantheon_Shop_Currency
Eg Change CHAR name (your 'info' has locked text 'was known as ...') = 350 Pantheon_Shop_Currency
Eg Rename PET = 50 Pantheon_Shop_Currency
Not personally a fan of shops, per se, but if you are going to have a split model for subscriptions, then it figures that 'buying anything in the shop' can be done by waiting rather than shelling out $$$. This would serve to limit (put a 'Cool-Down') into things that players might want to do - eg Move server. Thus subscribers can 'buy' anything in the shop (predominantly 'account', 'character' or 'fluffy') if they save up.
Suggestions above for 'types' of things that *might* be for sale.
PS Calico cat is NON-NEGOTIABLE !
