Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

XP Bonus Chains

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    • 3425 posts
    May 31, 2017 6:35 AM PDT

    FFXI used an XP chain system.  Just curious if something like this would ever be considered for Pantheon?  It's not a huge deal to me either way but I enjoyed the added depth that it provided to the "grind"  --  it really paid off to have a great group composition and experienced players.  Would like to hear feedback from other FFXI players as well ... what were your thoughts on the XP chain feature?  Was it something you enjoyed?  I haven't seen anything quite like it in other games but it always stuck out to me as a feature I enjoyed while I played that game.  It was rather difficult to pull off consistent bonus XP chains but if you managed to do it, you could FEEL the difference on your progress bar.  It certainly turned pulling into an art and provided another layer of strategy to the flow of combat.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at May 31, 2017 6:39 AM PDT
    • 11 posts
    May 31, 2017 6:46 AM PDT

    I don't think it is needed. Back in EQ the skill of your puller could make a huge difference in how fast the exp flowed and that is an "feature" I like better than a XP bonus thingy. I know the exp chain also requires a good puller but just feel it detracts from the game to get different amounts of exp in such a manner.

     

    Just my two cp :)

    • 3425 posts
    May 31, 2017 6:57 AM PDT

    Yeah I would argue that there are plenty of features that aren't "needed" that can still be "fun."  Did you ever play FFXI?  I'm really curious how others who played that game felt about the system.  It's quite possible that most people didn't even like it.  Personally, I did, and I would like to know what other folks thought about it when they used it.  Please keep in mind that this is just an attempt to stir up some conversation.  I'm not claiming to know VR's vision or plan when it comes to XP and I know they have a dedicated team of professionals that are hard at work designing their own systems and features.  I'm just tossing an idea out there to see what people think ... this isn't a claim that XP bonus chains would be great for Pantheon.  They were a great feature in FFXI though and I'm hoping to see some flavor/fluctuation when it comes to XP accumulation ... it was both challenging and fun.

     

    • 135 posts
    May 31, 2017 7:10 AM PDT
    I played FFXI for years, loved the hell out of it. The experience chain system was a good one. It rewarded good play, a good puller was invaluable and it promoted teamwork.

    I think Joppa mentioned it, or it could have been Brad but it was said that maybe later on some skills could play off one another. I thoroughly enjoyed the ability skill combo'ing. Lining up abilities with call outs so a Blackmage could begin his 40 second Ancient magic cast was an amazing feeling.

    Does this fit in Pantheon? Who knows, Brad has been around for awhile and has a pretty damn good idea of exactly what he's after. We'll have to wait and find out :D
    • 3543 posts
    May 31, 2017 7:52 AM PDT

    I played FFXIV (hated it) but not FFXI.

    I'm not sure I see the need for an xp chain - pulling fast should give much better experience than pulling slowly so why is a special mechanic needed to encourage it? 

    • 1369 posts
    May 31, 2017 7:57 AM PDT

    Can someone explain what the XP chain is? How it effects things? 

    • 327 posts
    May 31, 2017 8:12 AM PDT
    You get bonus XP for daisy chaining kills in X amount of time IIRC how it worked.

    Kind of like some FPS have a "killing spree" emote when you get a bunch of kills in arow.

    • 1369 posts
    May 31, 2017 8:50 AM PDT

    So you benefit by having a constant stream of unchallenging but xp-granting mobs and doing nothing at all but fighting non-stop for as long as possible? 

    Er, nah. 

     

    • 1986 posts
    May 31, 2017 9:03 AM PDT

    FFXI vet here. Did I like the system? Yes. Could it work in Pantheon? Sure. Is it in VRs vision? Not sure but wouldnt hurt my feelings if it were not.

     

    That being said non-FFXI players should not jump to conclusions if you never experienced it. 

    @Dorotea

    You get a bonus for perfoming well,not perfoming poorly or slowly. Not sure how you thought you would get a bonus for perfoming poorly.

    @Feyshtey

    If you were doing it that way, then i wouldnt really call it a bonus or worth your effort. Key things for maximum bonus was challenging mobs, killed fast by a skilled team, with a fast puller. But your inaccurate description does a great job of wording it as boring sounding as possible. Long story short, it was fun, and competitive way to level. Though you might get kicked from a party or cause a party to break early if that xp chain wasnt flowing. It was taken at that point that you either were a terrible player or leeching xp. Made everyone pay attention and up their game.

    • 3425 posts
    May 31, 2017 9:26 AM PDT
    Well put Amsai. It definitely wasn't a boring mechanic and it encouraged teamwork. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if we didn't see it or something like it in Pantheon either but nonetheless, it was a system I enjoyed that provided an extra layer of strategy to the XP grind. Not all groups were capable of pulling off consecutive chains ... it was a challenge to get a super efficient group but it felt very rewarding when you managed to pull it off. It was definitely nothing like Feyshtey has described. If you wanted the maximum bonus you had to be tactful with your pulling mechanics and engage challenging mobs. It was a system that rewarded having a good group composition, teamwork, and effective pulling. The game was balanced in a way where pulling difficult mobs in rapid succession was a challenge in and of itself and created an "art" with how you played. Skilled players were able to make their presence felt in a group in a way that I haven't quite seen duplicated in other games.
    • 423 posts
    May 31, 2017 9:29 AM PDT

    @Amsai - Doro was saying that pulling mobs faster already yields a "bonus" of sorts. Killing 2 mobs/min yields 2 times the experience of killing 1 mob/min. A chain system would just increase that difference to 2 mobs/min being 2.5 times better (random numbers obviously).

    People are already incentivized to maximimize their killing efficiency and that's something you see in almost everything that we do. The mechanics of the game don't have to tell you that being efficient is better, we all already know that.

    Perhaps the appeal of this mechanic is solely centered around the game *telling* you how efficient you're being, and people like feedback/praise? Pointing out good play is a plus in my book.

    Perhaps this scaling effect allows for a useful balancing of exp rates that can't be achieved through standard means? On first glance it seems like it just overlaps with the "group exp bonus" concept.

    I guess I just don't see what it brings to the table past what already exists. I have been in good groups that really maximized pulling and killing efficiency and you could FEEL the benefit and see the results on your exp bar. So could you FFXI vets clarify what is actually unique about this concept that makes it beneficial?

    In FFXI did you feel like this mechanic factored into your choice of what camps or mob types to go after? I would expect that you would only go for mobs that were easy enough for you to chain kill so you could maximize your bonus. If so, I would say that's a negative as I am of the opinion that broadening the scope of what can provide good exp is a good thing, instead of narrowing it.


    This post was edited by Ainadak at May 31, 2017 9:31 AM PDT
    • 852 posts
    May 31, 2017 9:30 AM PDT

    MordreadRN said:

    I don't think it is needed. Back in EQ the skill of your puller could make a huge difference in how fast the exp flowed and that is an "feature" I like better than a XP bonus thingy. I know the exp chain also requires a good puller but just feel it detracts from the game to get different amounts of exp in such a manner.

     

    Just my two cp :)

    It's been a while, but I seem to recall you got "bonus" xp in some dungeons, for having a full group, or maybe it scaled with group size? I do not recall if EQ launched with that feature or it was added later on. Or maybe it was vanguard. So long ago.

    • 852 posts
    May 31, 2017 9:39 AM PDT

    Amsai said:

    @Feyshtey

    If you were doing it that way, then i wouldnt really call it a bonus or worth your effort. Key things for maximum bonus was challenging mobs, killed fast by a skilled team, with a fast puller. But your inaccurate description does a great job of wording it as boring sounding as possible. Long story short, it was fun, and competitive way to level. Though you might get kicked from a party or cause a party to break early if that xp chain wasnt flowing. It was taken at that point that you either were a terrible player or leeching xp. Made everyone pay attention and up their game.

    Sarcasm begets sarcasm.

    Killed fast generally means more DPS. Well it always does I guess.

    Yes it sounds like Pantheon needs some sort of DPS meter(ala WOW) so we know who to kick from our group for slacking and soaking up xp while afk (all casters).

    Creating a mechanic that causes groups/players to exploit and discriminate, not my kind of mechanic.

    I'm a bigger fan of the "hey you have a full group, here's some bonus XP".

    • 135 posts
    May 31, 2017 9:46 AM PDT

    Looking at the comments here, the experience bonus for chain pulling was a benefit. As someone who leveled a Dragoon (a not desired class due to negative stigma at launch) I leveled from 1 to 65 by making all my own parties. Yea, some groups did phenominal at chain pulling, other groups not.

    Did I ever remove someone who was holding the group back? No. Nor did I ever run into a situation where the group wanted to boot a member because we weren't chain pulling like there's no tomorrow. The bonus experience feedback as mentioned was nice as it let you know you were doing a good job. Was there downsides to this? None that come to mind, it was a fun system that added to the game. 

    • 1986 posts
    May 31, 2017 9:53 AM PDT
    @Ainadak

    I guess your trying to get me to justify the system? Cant and wont do it. My opinion was that it was fun and added depth.Cant justify an opinion. I guess simply put: Positive reenforecement is good?

    But if we are gonna just dismiss things because its "not needed". Then we should probably get rid of group xp bonus. As well as a bunch of other things.
    • 327 posts
    May 31, 2017 10:20 AM PDT
    The group XP bonus was put into EQ because there was absolutely no reason to ever group for some classes (druids, enchanters, necros, magicians, shaman etc), because it was a net loss of XP with the way experience was divided.

    It came in POP or Luclin.

    Whether or not there is a group XP bonus some folks are absolutely going to discriminate against bad/slow players, it's almost inevitable with how the MMO gaming community is in 2017. Not sure this particular mechanic would make that any better or worse.

    • 3425 posts
    May 31, 2017 10:23 AM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    Amsai said:

    @Feyshtey

    If you were doing it that way, then i wouldnt really call it a bonus or worth your effort. Key things for maximum bonus was challenging mobs, killed fast by a skilled team, with a fast puller. But your inaccurate description does a great job of wording it as boring sounding as possible. Long story short, it was fun, and competitive way to level. Though you might get kicked from a party or cause a party to break early if that xp chain wasnt flowing. It was taken at that point that you either were a terrible player or leeching xp. Made everyone pay attention and up their game.

    Sarcasm begets sarcasm.

    Killed fast generally means more DPS. Well it always does I guess.

    Yes it sounds like Pantheon needs some sort of DPS meter(ala WOW) so we know who to kick from our group for slacking and soaking up xp while afk (all casters).

    Creating a mechanic that causes groups/players to exploit and discriminate, not my kind of mechanic.

    I'm a bigger fan of the "hey you have a full group, here's some bonus XP".

    And this is where I beg to differ.  I don't like the idea of "hey you have a full group, here's some bonus XP."  --  In my eyes that is a participation trophy.  It's rewarding people for adding a person to the group regardless of what class they play or how they contribute to the group.  I would much rather see something that encourages teamwork, pushing the envelope of skill in regards to mana management, pulling, respawn awareness, and the difficulty of the mobs you're engaging.  Seeing as groups are likely to discriminate against a DPS if they are looking for a tank or healer for their final spot, are you against the idea of having a holy quaternity mechanic?  Because that's exactly what it does ... it reinforces role interdependance.  XP chains were just another layer on top that rewarded well balanced groups who knew how to execute with precision.

    I often see remarks on this forum like "I don't think something like that is needed in Pantheon."  Are necromancers "needed" in Pantheon?  Is progeny "needed?"  It isn't a matter of whether something is "needed" or not ... and unless an idea directly contradicts the established game tenets, these opinions on what is or is not needed are irrelevant to me.  It's a matter of flavor.  It's a matter of whether or not a feature would help reinforce the tenets that are the foundation that the game has been built on.  There are several tenets that would suggest that XP chains could make sense and none that say it would not.

    Again, I'm not saying that this mechanic is "needed" ... I'm only pointing out that it worked really well in a game that I had a ton of fun playing, and that to my knowledge, was a feature that was generally well received by the majority of other people who played it.  That said, it doesen't hurt anybody to review this topic and see if there is some potential with the idea.  If you don't like the idea, so be it ... but at least give it a chance before writing it off based on some self-generated delusion of how it worked.

    Here are a few tenets to consider:

    A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics.

    An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.

    An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.

    A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.

    As someone who played FFXI, I can tell you that the XP Chain mechanic reinforced all of the above tenets.  Does that mean it's "needed" in Pantheon?  Of course not.  It just means that it's something that could work based on established guidelines.  I understand that some people would prefer that these conversations not take place at all and that unless something is officially sponsored by VR as a planned mechanic that it's just an unneccessary distraction.  I am sorry that my desire to entertain creative dialogue, ideas or suggestions do not sit well with you.  If you aren't open to thinking about potential ideas, you could always avoid my threads because it's pretty much established that a lot of my ideas are considered controversial.

    I understand that VR has their own vision of how the game will work and that's perfectly fine and dandy, I am very excited to see how that vision unfolds.  But again, it's become commonplace around here that ideas should just be prematurely dismissed.  I would love to see a list of ideas that have been embraced on this forum that were actually considered as something that could make sense for Pantheon.  All I ever see is the notion of writing ideas off or discouraging people to discuss them altogether.  That does nothing to promote community interaction in a game that is supposed to be focused on it's community.

    If people don't like the idea, hey, more power to you.  I did, and so did plenty of others ... that's why I specifically asked for FFXI veterans to comment here as they had personal experience with the system and are in a good position to comment on it's effectiveness and whether or not it contributed to their "fun factor" for the game.  That's exactly what it did for me ... it took the repetitive grinding that I did in other MMO's where you pull mobs over and over and over to level up, and added a layer of strategy.  It rewarded tact and precision in a way that focused on immersive combat and engaging group mechnics.

    Again, seeing as that is something that the dev team has committed to for Pantheon, what does it hurt in bringing up this idea here?  Maybe this idea will be the one that finally gets some traction ... I'm somewhere around 0/95 and as a hardcore MMO veteran, I like to feel that my perspective and experience might be able to eventually offer something worthwhile if I keep trying.  Maybe that day will never come ... but I'll keep trying anyway.  XP chains were awesome ... thank you for those Square Enix, it was an innovative idea that added both fun and challenge to the leveling up process.  It was very much appreciated.  I only seek to pay the favor forward ... sharing that memory with others to see if it or something like it could find it's way back into our gaming sessions.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at May 31, 2017 10:24 AM PDT
    • 3543 posts
    May 31, 2017 10:34 AM PDT

    >@Dorotea

    You get a bonus for perfoming well,not perfoming poorly or slowly. Not sure how you thought you would get a bonus for perfoming poorly.<

     

    Maybe I wasn't clear enough. All I meant to say was that since fast pulling is beneficial even without an xp chain I wasn't sure that having an xp chain would change much.

    • 3425 posts
    May 31, 2017 10:44 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    >@Dorotea

    You get a bonus for perfoming well,not perfoming poorly or slowly. Not sure how you thought you would get a bonus for perfoming poorly.<

     

    Maybe I wasn't clear enough. All I meant to say was that since fast pulling is beneficial even without an xp chain I wasn't sure that having an xp chain would change much.

    Seeing as increased DPS is already beneficial to begin with, when it comes to adding extra layers such as STR/DEX/INT, spell quality, weapon upgrades, synergy, resistance factors, buffs, etc ... don't they all make a significant difference in the grand scheme of things?  Should the idea of effective XP accumulation be limited to nothing more than how fast you can pull, the level of NPC you're fighting, or how many mobs you can handle per hour?  The more factors or challenges involved, the more options a player has to utilize their skill/knowledge to overcome those challenges in a meaningful and contributive way.  That's essentially what having XP chains did ... it added another layer to the grind that allowed players to utilize their skill, experience and composition to their benefit.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at May 31, 2017 10:46 AM PDT
    • 2159 posts
    May 31, 2017 11:16 AM PDT

    I agree with oneADseven. Kill chains incentivize good play, just like any number of other mechanics in the game.

    Players who don't care about being optimal shouldn't impact your ability to optimize your gameplay. A select few players will discriminate regardless of mechanical implementation, and they will be ostracized and/or dealt with regardless.

    • 177 posts
    May 31, 2017 11:40 AM PDT

    Never was a fan of the "chaining" system for FF.

    First off, we don't need Yet-Another-System that has no real impact on the game, and is more detrimental than helpful. I'd rather the focus of my gaming be on the world rather than if I'm adhering to some arbitrary system.

    Second, a system like this only speeds up the levelling for good players. They don't need it. The game doesn't need it. Let's not spend time on it.

    • 2159 posts
    May 31, 2017 11:49 AM PDT

    Archaen said:

    Never was a fan of the "chaining" system for FF.

    First off, we don't need Yet-Another-System that has no real impact on the game, and is more detrimental than helpful. I'd rather the focus of my gaming be on the world rather than if I'm adhering to some arbitrary system.

    Second, a system like this only speeds up the levelling for good players. They don't need it. The game doesn't need it. Let's not spend time on it.

    Edit: Too much salt.


    This post was edited by Liav at May 31, 2017 12:09 PM PDT
    • 3425 posts
    May 31, 2017 11:50 AM PDT

     

    Archaen said:

    Never was a fan of the "chaining" system for FF.

    First off, we don't need Yet-Another-System that has no real impact on the game, and is more detrimental than helpful. I'd rather the focus of my gaming be on the world rather than if I'm adhering to some arbitrary system.

    Second, a system like this only speeds up the levelling for good players. They don't need it. The game doesn't need it. Let's not spend time on it.

    Doesen't have an impact on the game?  Did you not just read how it directly reinforces good teamwork behavior and skilled pulling?  Is that not something that should be promoted?  Who cares if something "speeds up leveling for good players."  Wouldn't that be a good thing for good players who don't have a lot of time which is something we see players asking for, ALL the time?  It would be a system that rewards SKILL, not time.  But yeah ... we don't need anything like that ... please no ... let's not waste time entertaining an idea that rewards skilled players ... that's blasphemy!  The premature dismissal of ideas based on personal agendas (or vendettas in some cases) is something running absolutely rampant on this forum.  It's laughable indeed.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at May 31, 2017 11:54 AM PDT
    • 151 posts
    May 31, 2017 11:51 AM PDT

    Sunmistress said:Whether or not there is a group XP bonus some folks are absolutely going to discriminate against bad/slow players, it's almost inevitable with how the MMO gaming community is in 2017. Not sure this particular mechanic would make that any better or worse.

    Bad/slow players were rightly descriminated against back in 1999, too.  That's a big reason in saying your reputation matters.

    Reputation is about more than simply being a nice person.  It also matters if you're a nice person who doesn't use excuses like "I need to catch my breath" after every pull to excuse your slowness (one of the most idiotically overused expressions in the history of MMOs.)

    • 1318 posts
    May 31, 2017 11:59 AM PDT

    It would seem if your in a good enough group to chain pull nonstop, that would be the bonus itself. Also I thought they were looking for ways to slow things down not speed them up.

    Just wanted to have my voice heard then I will leave you all back to your debating. I'm not in favor of any type of Bonus Experience, be it this or rest exp or "special" weekends, whatever it might be.