Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

XP Bonus Chains

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    • 801 posts
    June 1, 2017 7:37 AM PDT

    Most of what i read seems realitive to the XP rate, Mob HP, Risk Vs Reward. Devs tweak the XP rates associated at how fast and slow they want progression. Many of Pantheon's followers come from games that SOE had developed with a rate much slower then most modern MMO's It took a 6 months to 1 year in 1999 to get to 50 unless you where a powerlvler. If you explored the world, you really went slow. If you played 18 hr days in EQ with solid groups, gaining solid XP you had no issues getting to 50 fast. But if you played games like WOW it was so quickly gainned in mini quests.

     

    XP rates where given maybe after?? they discovered that players where complaining?

    It really has a lot to do with the XP rate bonus. Group bonus was applied and done in EQ too.

    I also am not saying the XP bonus isnt a good or bad thing, just it will depend on how long we want the 1st part of the game to play out like. After 10 + years? maybe the catchup XP bonus might be decent idea. Going from 1-100 type thing.

     

    It maybe a tool like, instancing is that can be used to fix a lacking system?

    • 1303 posts
    June 1, 2017 7:42 AM PDT

    I actually like achievements. I like titles or cosmetic rewards too. But i do feel theres a line that when crossed shifts the focus from gameplay to checking off the copious volume of possible achievements.  It can also begin to be used as a prerequisite to be taken seriously as a player for inclusion in groups or guilds. 

    So yeah, i like the general concept Evoras. I just feer overuse of the concept overall. 

    • 1434 posts
    June 1, 2017 7:43 AM PDT

    Efficiency already rewards players in that it allows them to kill mobs faster.

    • 3237 posts
    June 1, 2017 7:58 AM PDT

    I just want it to be known that getting the optimal chain was the exception, not the rule.  The majority of groups would pull off chains here and there, and perhaps even getting a max chain now and then.  It took a lot of precision and experience to pull off the best chains but that didn't stop the rest of the world from using the feature at their own pace.  It wasn't a matter of "You're either getting 10 max chains per hour or you're failing."  I don't even remember having conversations about chains prior to getting a group.  I would just set up a well rounded group ... go to a camp I liked, and we would start going to work.  Sometimes we were able to pull awesome chains, sometimes we couldn't ... but either way, we were in an XP group, and we were making progress.  We were always happy for that progress, even if it wasn't absolutely perfect.  When you were fortunate enough to get an exceptional group that excelled at pulling off XP chains, it probably held together for quite some time ... time is a valuable commodity and when players demonstrate they can be efficient with it, they'll naturally cling to each other to maximize their time spent.  That isn't a bad thing ... it might yank out a few people from the PUG pool but they are still playing the game ... together, as friends, and enjoying the value that is their friendship, trust, and experience together. 

    • 1303 posts
    June 1, 2017 8:05 AM PDT

    To reinforce what Dullahan said, lacking a chain system people still watch their xp bar and can generally see if the group is showing greater progress that others. When things are going well they stick together. Same result, no additional code required.

    • 3237 posts
    June 1, 2017 8:14 AM PDT

    Dullahan said:

    Efficiency already rewards players in that it allows them to kill mobs faster.

    It wasn't all about the reward though.  My favorite part of the XP chain system was just managing to pull it off.  It was difficult, but it was tangible.  The feature provided "chunks" in your session rather than it just being one long gigantic grind of one mob to the next.  There were windows of opportunity that could be seized.  Unfortunately, I feel that no amount of describing it could ever do it justice.  I've spent thousands of hours grinding ... in many different games ... FFXI was both unique and special in this area because it felt much less monotonous ... much less repetitive.  XP chains added a flair effect that somewhat felt like a mini-ding.  Every time you managed to pull of a nice chain, it felt like a small victory, especially considering how difficult they were to pull off.  It was definitely very engaging.

    • 578 posts
    June 1, 2017 12:19 PM PDT

    Liav said:

    FFXI being described as a hand holding type of game is amusing at the very least. How is it hand holding when the mechanic specifically rewards high performing players?

    Never said the game in its entirety was hand holding but having an xp bonus reward for chain pulling in game IS a hand holding mechanic. It's a feature that says to the players/group that 'your group can get bonus xp if you chain pull mobs and kill them faster'. Before they ever pull a single mob they can look into the game's features, tenets, mechanics or what have you and find out about this buff (or however it worked) that rewards bonus xp if you chain pull mobs and kill them faster. The game itself tells the players about chain pulling. It's also a mechanic the players don't need to tell them that chain pulling nets better xp. EQ1 and VG never told its players about chain pulling, some players just figured out on their own that if you chain pulled and killed mobs faster that you got faster better xp.

    Obviously it rewarded high performing players. But it also taught players about chain pulling and any time the game itself does this without letting the players discover it on their own is the definition of hand holding.

    • 86 posts
    June 1, 2017 1:39 PM PDT

    If it wasn't in EQ, don't even bother suggesting it. If it wasn't in EQ, it's rubbish and un-necessary. That's pretty much the sum of these forums. Personally I loved both skillchains and killchains in FFXI. They really promote efficient teamworking, and teamworking is supposed to be the byword of this game. But sadly they're an awful idea because they werent' in EQ.

     

    Hey, do you guys remember this really cool feature that was in EQ? it was the BEST. Man, those were the days.

     


    This post was edited by Idrial at June 1, 2017 1:50 PM PDT
    • 151 posts
    June 1, 2017 1:52 PM PDT

    Idrial said:

    If it wasn't in EQ, don't even bother suggesting it. If it wasn't in EQ, it's rubbish and un-necessary. That's pretty much the sum of these forums.

     

    Totally dis-agree... As was pointed out(on page 2 I think) I didnt fully understand what they were discussing at first. Now that I do, I dont really care one way or the other but I have enjoyed 5 pages of discussion.  I would hope none of us takes the stance of apathy and decide we shouldnt try to communicate with the group.  I look forward to seeing how fast I can kill mobs.. whether the game rewards me a little extra for doing it quicker than an arbitrary dev set time limit is of little consequence to me.

    • 74 posts
    June 1, 2017 2:24 PM PDT

    Hunk said: and most of the negative responses have yet to give a well reasoned idea that opposes why such an idea would not be a welcome change.

     

    I think there have been plenty of valid reasons why some people wouldn't want to see xp bonus chains in Pantheon. You must really be skimming if you haven't seen them. I am actually glad to see ideas like this be opened up for discussion even if I disagree with them. I think both sides are taking it too personally. My previous reply was just my vote for not including it in Pantheon and the reasons why I thought it would hurt pick up groups.

     

    If the devs add this feature it won't break the game for me, but it is okay for myself and others to say we don't care to see it added.

    • 3237 posts
    June 1, 2017 2:53 PM PDT

    NoobieDoo said:

    Liav said:

    FFXI being described as a hand holding type of game is amusing at the very least. How is it hand holding when the mechanic specifically rewards high performing players?

    Never said the game in its entirety was hand holding but having an xp bonus reward for chain pulling in game IS a hand holding mechanic. It's a feature that says to the players/group that 'your group can get bonus xp if you chain pull mobs and kill them faster'. Before they ever pull a single mob they can look into the game's features, tenets, mechanics or what have you and find out about this buff (or however it worked) that rewards bonus xp if you chain pull mobs and kill them faster. The game itself tells the players about chain pulling. It's also a mechanic the players don't need to tell them that chain pulling nets better xp. EQ1 and VG never told its players about chain pulling, some players just figured out on their own that if you chain pulled and killed mobs faster that you got faster better xp.

    Obviously it rewarded high performing players. But it also taught players about chain pulling and any time the game itself does this without letting the players discover it on their own is the definition of hand holding.

    With that mindset, wouldn't all promoted features be considered a form of hand-holding?  We know about progeny, acclimation, situational gear, colored mana, the living codex, rites of passage, etc.  I know of all these features ahead of time without ever discovering how they work in game.  Is VR holding my hand by telling me that some gear will be situationally better than others by placing an emphasis on situational gear in their game?  Am I missing out on some sort of discovery sensation by not coming to that conclusion on my own?  Providing information on what features we can expect to be present is not hand holding.  It's not like there was an instructor in each city that taught you about XP chains.  You had to figure it out on your own.  When you killed NPC's in succession, you would see a timer pop up on your screen indicating that there was a limited timeframe to kill the next mob.  After you killed it, or the chain ended, you would see another message letting you know that you had accumulated some bonus XP.

    I assure you that FFXI was not a handholding game in any way shape or form.  It was a very difficult game that truly punished players for mistakes, even to the point where you could de-level and render some of your gear unequippable, or spells/abilities unusable.  The XP chain feature wasn't implemented to tell people that chain pulling was an effective way to accumulate XP.  It was implemented as a way for players to take advantage of windows of opportunity, and those windows were sporadic.  It was up to the player to determine the best camp or pull rotation in order to maximize the potential bonus available.  It was up to the player to figure out how they worked, and that's why there were plenty of threads you could find online where people in the community would try to work together to share ideas, locations, rotations, etc on how to utilize this awesome feature.

    It was embedded into the game as a feature but not once do I recall any sort of tutorial message or any other handholding mechanic pop up on my screen.  If players wanted to use this feature to their advantage, it had to be done organically.  As Liav pointed out ... any suggestion that would describe FFXI as handholding is laughable.  I've played plenty of MMO's and none were as consistently challenging as FFXI.  I'll never forget, before even hitting level 10, having to deal with Banshees (Night-time only mobs that were 15+ levels higher than other content in the area) that would pop up and annihilate your entire group in seconds.  I'll never forget the chunk damage that the pugilists were dishing out on the beach at Valkurn Dunes ... literally, the group content was challenging at level 6 or 7.  If you pulled an add, your group was toast, and your best option would be to try and die in a safe location rather than bringing both back to your group.  I'll never forget trying to get help on my level 40 AQ quest and having level 50's be hesitant to offer their assistance due to the inherent danger involved.

    I'm not saying FFXI was the best game ever, but it in my opinion, it was the best in many ways.  First and foremost, their sub-class system was amazing.  The sub-class system was single handedly responsible for making all zones and level ranges relevant.  At any given time it was quite probable that you would see a veteran player working on their sub-class.  This kept all content fresh and meaningful.  It also allowed newb players the opportunity to play with experienced veterans.  I learned this really early on, my first group even, and continued to see that through every level range.  If you died, you better hope for a rez.  If one wasn't available, you'd end up back at your starting city or wherever else with a long journey ahead of you just to get back to camp.  Travel was super meaningful.  It wasn't uncommon for it to take 30-60 minutes just for a group to gather at an agreed location.

    To summarize though, these are the areas where FFXI truly shined:

    Economy -  (Regional Auction Houses.  Itemization in this game was absolutely fabulous.  Crafting was profitable.  When I started playing, the server was already several years old but I was able to make nice profits from selling adamantium armor.  It required me to collect the ores myself for maximum profit, and collecting those ores was quite the challenge in and of itself.  It required invis pots, deodorant, and stealth pots.  Some mobs were super sensitive to sound, others vision, and others smell.  Some could do all 3.  I remember spending a ton of money on these consumables, but it being well worth it as they allowed me to carefully maneuver through otherwise extremely dangerous areas.  Even with all of these 3 consumables, it was still very dangerous and required awesome timing and awareness.  There were plenty of mobs that had long respawn timers and their drops were extremely sought after.  There was a level 12-15 lizard that dropped "Leaping Boots" that would sell for a fortune, and people were willing to spend it!  Powerful low-level gear was worth it's weight in gold because of the sub-class system.)

    XP System - The XP grind was a ton of fun.  It was difficult to coordinate groups because of meaningful travel.  From what I can remember, I don't think there were teleports at all.  I remember taking 15 minute airship rides to get to the other side of the world and feeling that every minute was worth it because it truly felt like an adventure every time you left the city.  NPC's were consistently challenging.  As I mentioned earlier, as early as level 6 you were dealing with mobs that could wipe your group if you pulled one too many.  XP chains added a layer of strategy to the grind, rewarding groups that had a balanced composition, experienced pullers, and players that knew how to manage their mana or utilize their temporary buffs to squeeze out enough damage to make the next link in the chain possible.  Every successful chain felt like a small victory because they were not easy to pull off.  Nothing was given.  If you wanted to utilize XP chains to their full potential, it required attention to detail, situational awareness, efficient combos, and experience.

    Sub-class System - The sub-class system allowed players to create very interesting combinations.  My personal favorite was paladin/ninja.  It wasn't viable for raid-tanking, but I loved to use it for soloing.  It allowed my character, as a tank, to solo some pretty difficult NPC's.  But it was never easy.  It required exceptional gear, consumables, and downtime between each fight for medding.  It allowed players to create interesting "specs" so to speak that could shine in specific situations.  Paladins were never considered an efficient group healer, even if they had a fully leveled whitemage as their sub-class.  It allowed players to create fun and flavorful hybrids that went a long way toward making our characters feel unique, all while keeping the system in-check to the point where it never felt unbalanced or a damper on role interdependence.

    I don't want to eternalize this novel on how awesome FFXI was, but here are more areas where this game shined:  Travel / Itemizaton / Named Bosses / Item Value / Contested Raiding / Extremely Limited Instances (BCNM's, Storyline Quests) / Risk vs Reward / Immersion / Grouping / Progression.  Sounds like a pretty epic list ... and it was.  Now I don't want to come off as someone who wants Pantheon to be exactly like FFXI was.  I know that Pantheon is tapping into the heritage of what made EQ and Vanguard feel special for so many and I think that's an absolutely ideal place to start.  Both were great games.  But if we're looking to tap into the history of the genre, and allow players to relive some of the experiences that were only available in the "oldschool hardcore MMO" era, I really hope that FFXI is considered in the mix.  I don't know how popular it was here in the states with PC gamers (I played it on the PS2) but it was definitely a special game.  It was to Japan what Everquest was to the US.  It was their original hardcore MMO that has hundreds of thousands of their gamers sitting around right now, wishing that the genre hadn't devolved to where it is today.  I'm willing to bet that the majority of their fanbase views FFXIV how many of us view WoW.  Maybe it appeases the masses ... maybe it rakes in more money ... but it's not nearly as fun for players who miss a really challenging and hardcore game.

    Back to the discussion at hand though ... yeah, XP chains weren't handholding bud.  They were difficult to execute but ultimately they made combat more engaging, more rewarding, and more dangerous.  More than anything, they were a feature that allowed a players skill to impact the rate they progressed.  I understand the argument that chain pulling without this feature does the same thing ... it does, but to a lesser degree.  This is another layer on top where skill becomes even more meaningful.  It was a mechanic that reinforced the all so important element of risk vs reward.  Personally, I place a lot of weight on the value of risk vs reward functionality.  XP chaining was but one of many features that reinforced risk vs reward in that game but it definitely got the job done and that's why my memories of leveling up in FFXI will always be a favorite pastime.  Being a newb and XP chaining pugilists at level 7 felt super gratifying and I still remember doing it to this day.  The challenge ... the thrills ... the satisfaction ... at level 7!!!  Epic stuff indeed.

    • 3237 posts
    June 1, 2017 3:12 PM PDT

    Hunk said: NoobieDoo, your logic is so flawed in your assessment that I honestly don't even know where to begin. I've seen oneAD attempt to convey his thoughts and the head in the sand mindset here is unbelievably strong. I've skimmed over the responses here

    The way I look at is simple.  If someone can point out how the idea goes against the established tenets of the game, they have my ear on why it has no business being in Pantheon.  That is something I have yet to see.  What I have seen, consistently on this forum for months, is "It's bad for this game because I don't like it."  I've been told in PM's that the majority of my ideas are fundamentally bad for the MMO genre.  I've been told that my ideas are what made MMO's devolve to what they are today.  It's hilarious.  This XP chain discussion isn't an idea I came up with on my own.  It's a tried and true system from another oldschool hardcore MMO.  It's the fear of the unknown that gets 'em.  I'm just happy to see a bunch of FFXI veterans popping in to add to the discussion.  Somehow, this concept resonated with people who played that game.  But it's a foreign object to those who weren't able to experience it ... an imposter, an arbitrary system that breaks immersion while single-handedly wiping out pick-up groups.  I respect if someone doesen't like the system personally, but when they say it would be bad for the game, I think those comments are out of line.

    I just feel that after enough discussion, maybe someone would be willing to open up some and give it a fair chance at life.  There are many who are on the fence either way ... but there are a few who are absolutely stalwart once their mind is made up.  I'm not trying to "force" people into loving the system, as has been accused.  I'm throwing ideas out there ... listening to objections, and then countering them with something logical.  I'm just trying to share something cool and am willing to have a meaningful discussion or civil debate on what made it special.  I don't expect everybody to just magically change their opinion.  But let's talk about it?  What is it that you don't like?  If it's because it speeds up leveling, and then I demonstrate how it doesen't, what is the next issue?  After we solve that, how many more can you come up with?  I just know XP chaining was a very cool feature and I wish more people could have experienced it.

    • 690 posts
    June 1, 2017 3:20 PM PDT

    Hunk said: NoobieDoo, your logic is so flawed in your assessment that I honestly don't even know where to begin. I've seen oneAD attempt to convey his thoughts and the head in the sand mindset here is unbelievably strong. I've skimmed over the responses here

    Someone who disagrees with you is not automatically attacking you or giving flawed logic.

    I understood his logic. When you give players a bonus like "you can get the quest and suddenly killing those bats gives more experience over all", you are holding their hand.

    He is tying this same idea to the bonuses you can get from chaining. "You can chain and suddenly killing those bats gives more experience over all".

    Personally I disagree, like oneAD, because there is no clear line where "hand holding" does and does not occur. Getting experience from killing bats efficiently or getting cooking supplies from killing bats could ultimately be considered hand holding, despite being the basic of the basics. I dislike ideas that are put forward, with themselves as an argument, without a clear line of where it begins and ends. 


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at June 1, 2017 4:04 PM PDT
    • 483 posts
    June 1, 2017 3:24 PM PDT

    It's not hand-holding, but it does tell you how to play the game in the most effective way possible. I see is PoV, don't relly care if it's in the game or not because has I said before it will make no difference.

    • 3237 posts
    June 1, 2017 3:30 PM PDT

    jpedrote said:

    It's not hand-holding, but it does tell you how to play the game in the most effective way possible. I see is PoV, don't relly care if it's in the game or not because has I said before it will make no difference.

    But it does make a difference.  I certainly wouldn't have gone out of my way trying to explain the system as much as I have if it was truly pointless.  The system DID make a difference.  The difference was, quite simply, that it incrementally rewarded players for demonstrating above-average skill, tactical knowhow, experience, and situational awareness.  As someone who takes pride in being familiar with all of those things and executing them in my gameplay, I appreciated the incentive.  I appreciated having the option to take advantage of windows of opportunity.

    • 483 posts
    June 1, 2017 4:03 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    But it does make a difference.  I certainly wouldn't have gone out of my way trying to explain the system as much as I have if it was truly pointless.  The system DID make a difference.  The difference was, quite simply, that it incrementally rewarded players for demonstrating above-average skill, tactical knowhow, experience, and situational awareness.  As someone who takes pride in being familiar with all of those things and executing them in my gameplay, I appreciated the incentive.  I appreciated having the option to take advantage of windows of opportunity.

    Alright to you it makes a difference, to me it does not. The group will gain XP at the rate VR wants, with or without the XP chain bonus, pulling and killing fasters is already in itself faster "bonus" XP that rewards good players, regardless of the window of oportunity to keep the chain going a good group will always average out more XP when compared to a weaker one, so I trully believe it will make no difference.

    • 690 posts
    June 1, 2017 4:05 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Hunk said: NoobieDoo, your logic is so flawed in your assessment that I honestly don't even know where to begin. I've seen oneAD attempt to convey his thoughts and the head in the sand mindset here is unbelievably strong. I've skimmed over the responses here

    The way I look at is simple.  If someone can point out how the idea goes against the established tenets of the game, they have my ear on why it has no business being in Pantheon.  That is something I have yet to see.  What I have seen, consistently on this forum for months, is "It's bad for this game because I don't like it."  I've been told in PM's that the majority of my ideas are fundamentally bad for the MMO genre.  I've been told that my ideas are what made MMO's devolve to what they are today.  It's hilarious.  This XP chain discussion isn't an idea I came up with on my own.  It's a tried and true system from another oldschool hardcore MMO.  It's the fear of the unknown that gets 'em.  I'm just happy to see a bunch of FFXI veterans popping in to add to the discussion.  Somehow, this concept resonated with people who played that game.  But it's a foreign object to those who weren't able to experience it ... an imposter, an arbitrary system that breaks immersion while single-handedly wiping out pick-up groups.  I respect if someone doesen't like the system personally, but when they say it would be bad for the game, I think those comments are out of line.

    I just feel that after enough discussion, maybe someone would be willing to open up some and give it a fair chance at life.  There are many who are on the fence either way ... but there are a few who are absolutely stalwart once their mind is made up.  I'm not trying to "force" people into loving the system, as has been accused.  I'm throwing ideas out there ... listening to objections, and then countering them with something logical.  I'm just trying to share something cool and am willing to have a meaningful discussion or civil debate on what made it special.  I don't expect everybody to just magically change their opinion.  But let's talk about it?  What is it that you don't like?  If it's because it speeds up leveling, and then I demonstrate how it doesen't, what is the next issue?  After we solve that, how many more can you come up with?  I just know XP chaining was a very cool feature and I wish more people could have experienced it.

    I tell you it is against the tenets because it does not promote the level of socialization and downtime VR desires. You reply that not all aspects of the game need to follow the tenets. 

    I decide to take your word for it and describe how chaining can harm Pantheon itself, but now that is getting shot down...because I'm not referencing the tenets?

    By suggesting chaining here, and not in some ff11 nostalgia/off topic forum, you are suggesting that it should be considered for the game. How exactly is that different from me saying chaining should not be considered for the game, and giving reasons why I think so?

    Take a step back and breath man.

    Moving right along...I understand that you are touting chaining for other reasons than speeding up the leveling process. These include but are not limited to making the fights more exciting, promoting group cohesion, and promoting skillful play.  For your proposed benefits to work in a similar way they did in ff11, however, chaining will need to give some sort of tangible bonus, hence where some people's arguments come from. Any non-cosmetic bonus given to players will ultimately speed up their experience gains in some way.

    No matter how pure our intentions may be, active changes to the game, and not making changes to the game for that matter, affect the game in all sorts of ways, intended or not. 

    Don't get me wrong, I am only trying to shed light on other people's complaints here. I myself did not mention enhanced leveling in my previous novel for a reason. I just don't think that chaining done right would affect leveling in a way that hurts Pantheon's hardcore gameplay side.

    The other worries I mentioned in my previous novel do still apply though. Even with Avoras' suggestion that we use something other than experience, I feel that whatever bonuses given will still ultimately affect Pantheon in a very similar, imo negative, manner, so long as they are desirable bonuses. 

    jpedrote said:

    Alright to you it makes a difference, to me it does not. The group will gain XP at the rate VR wants, with or without the XP chain bonus, pulling and killing fasters is already in itself faster "bonus" XP that rewards good players, regardless of the window of oportunity to keep the chain going a good group will always average out more XP when compared to a weaker one, so I trully believe it will make no difference.

    The differences oneADseven is trying to discuss here are more related to things like promoting difficulty/fun, promoting group cohesion, and promoting player skill. His only argument about experience appears to be the same one you seem to have, "it doesn't really matter". See previous novels for further information.

    For the record I agree with oneADseven on those points; chaining really can do that. I just don't think these benefits are worth the risks I mentioned in a novel I wrote a page back.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at June 1, 2017 4:17 PM PDT
    • 690 posts
    June 1, 2017 4:09 PM PDT

    oops


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at June 1, 2017 4:09 PM PDT
    • 483 posts
    June 1, 2017 4:46 PM PDT

    @BeaverBiscuit

    "The differences oneADseven is trying to discuss here are more related to things like promoting difficulty/fun, promoting group cohesion, and promoting player skill. His only argument about experience appears to be the same one you seem to have, "it doesn't really matter". See previous novels for further information."

    I don't see how XP bonus chains promotes this. If your goal is fast XP farm you would already have a cohesive group with all the roles and best possible synergies filled, having XP bonus chains would not influence your grouping composition decisions if you already had the goal of min/maxing XP gains. How does it promote player skill, because of the bonus XP? Being efficient without the XP bonus chain also gives more XP in a shorter amount of time, it's the exact same thing, a good group (with or without XP bonus) will always get more XP than a weaker group, that's why I say it does not matter, in the end VR will set the pace, and if there's XP bonus or not the game will play the same.

    • 690 posts
    June 1, 2017 4:49 PM PDT

    jpedrote said:

    @BeaverBiscuit

    "The differences oneADseven is trying to discuss here are more related to things like promoting difficulty/fun, promoting group cohesion, and promoting player skill. His only argument about experience appears to be the same one you seem to have, "it doesn't really matter". See previous novels for further information."

    I don't see how XP bonus chains promotes this. If your goal is fast XP farm you would already have a cohesive group with all the roles and best possible synergies filled, having XP bonus chains would not influence your grouping composition decisions if you already had the goal of min/maxing XP gains. How does it promote player skill, because of the bonus XP? Being efficient without the XP bonus chain also gives more XP in a shorter amount of time, it's the exact same thing, a good group (with or without XP bonus) will always get more XP than a weaker group, that's why I say it does not matter, in the end VR will set the pace, and if there's XP bonus or not the game will play the same.

    because without chaining, choosing to not fight and rest is an option, before you have completely run out of resources. It is usually going to be safer that way so even the efficient groups will do it unless they are so powerful in the area they can just murder everything.

    The strain of going so long without resting, planning it all out, etc in a chaining system promotes those things.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at June 1, 2017 5:02 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    June 1, 2017 5:09 PM PDT

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    oneADseven said:

    Hunk said: NoobieDoo, your logic is so flawed in your assessment that I honestly don't even know where to begin. I've seen oneAD attempt to convey his thoughts and the head in the sand mindset here is unbelievably strong. I've skimmed over the responses here

    The way I look at is simple.  If someone can point out how the idea goes against the established tenets of the game, they have my ear on why it has no business being in Pantheon.  That is something I have yet to see.  What I have seen, consistently on this forum for months, is "It's bad for this game because I don't like it."  I've been told in PM's that the majority of my ideas are fundamentally bad for the MMO genre.  I've been told that my ideas are what made MMO's devolve to what they are today.  It's hilarious.  This XP chain discussion isn't an idea I came up with on my own.  It's a tried and true system from another oldschool hardcore MMO.  It's the fear of the unknown that gets 'em.  I'm just happy to see a bunch of FFXI veterans popping in to add to the discussion.  Somehow, this concept resonated with people who played that game.  But it's a foreign object to those who weren't able to experience it ... an imposter, an arbitrary system that breaks immersion while single-handedly wiping out pick-up groups.  I respect if someone doesen't like the system personally, but when they say it would be bad for the game, I think those comments are out of line.

    I just feel that after enough discussion, maybe someone would be willing to open up some and give it a fair chance at life.  There are many who are on the fence either way ... but there are a few who are absolutely stalwart once their mind is made up.  I'm not trying to "force" people into loving the system, as has been accused.  I'm throwing ideas out there ... listening to objections, and then countering them with something logical.  I'm just trying to share something cool and am willing to have a meaningful discussion or civil debate on what made it special.  I don't expect everybody to just magically change their opinion.  But let's talk about it?  What is it that you don't like?  If it's because it speeds up leveling, and then I demonstrate how it doesen't, what is the next issue?  After we solve that, how many more can you come up with?  I just know XP chaining was a very cool feature and I wish more people could have experienced it.

    I tell you it is against the tenets because it does not promote the level of socialization and downtime VR desires. You reply that not all aspects of the game need to follow the tenets. 

    I decide to take your word for it and describe how chaining can harm Pantheon itself, but now that is getting shot down...because I'm not referencing the tenets?

    By suggesting chaining here, and not in some ff11 nostalgia/off topic forum, you are suggesting that it should be considered for the game. How exactly is that different from me saying chaining should not be considered for the game, and giving reasons why I think so?

    Take a step back and breath man.

    Moving right along...I understand that you are touting chaining for other reasons than speeding up the leveling process. These include but are not limited to making the fights more exciting, promoting group cohesion, and promoting skillful play.  For your proposed benefits to work in a similar way they did in ff11, however, chaining will need to give some sort of tangible bonus, hence where some people's arguments come from. Any non-cosmetic bonus given to players will ultimately speed up their experience gains in some way.

    No matter how pure our intentions may be, active changes to the game, and not making changes to the game for that matter, affect the game in all sorts of ways, intended or not. 

    Don't get me wrong, I am only trying to shed light on other people's complaints here. I myself did not mention enhanced leveling in my previous novel for a reason. I just don't think that chaining done right would affect leveling in a way that hurts Pantheon's hardcore gameplay side.

    The other worries I mentioned in my previous novel do still apply though. Even with Avoras' suggestion that we use something other than experience, I feel that whatever bonuses given will still ultimately affect Pantheon in a very similar matter, so long as they are desirable bonuses. 

    Here is the tenet you are referencing:

    "A mindset that some degree of downtime should be part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds."

    Some degree of downtime should be a part of the game.

    Meanwhile, there are 7 other tenets that the XP chain feature would compliment that I will link at the end of this post.  That said, I feel it passes the eye test on whether or not it could be viable for Pantheon.  Attempting to change the bonus from XP to something else is grasping for straws for the sake of compromise.  XP worked perfectly fine.  It's been demonstrated that it doesen't need to speed up the leveling process which was communicated as a major concern.  That argument has come up several times and I'm done trying to counter it.  It's been countered, irrefutably.

    I want to be clear as well that the game does not need to be designed to compliment XP chains.  The NPC population doesen't need to be systematically placed to promote chains.  That's where emergent gameplay comes into play.  It's possible that some camps will benefit more from XP chaining than others.  It's up to the players to find those camps and deal with any advanced AI that could throw a monkey wrench in the program.  As far as I'm concerned, a few curveballs being added to the XP chain feature in FFXI would have been welcomed!  They had their own sporadic monkey wrenches; night-time only mobs, mobs that had increased sensitivity to sound, sight, or scent, mobs that called friends (like the alarmist) ... mobs that would explode.

    In Evoras' example, he mentioned that advanced AI/Dispositions could have a severe impact on chaining.  Wonderful!  This makes them more difficult and exciting!  It adds to the layer of strategy that I have been talking about this entire time.  He also referenced anisotropic mob zone density which could make steady pull rates difficult or situational.  Once again ... wonderful!  XP chains aren't supposed to be easy.  They're supposed to be situational.  It's up to the player to overcome these various challenges to make the most of the system.  The more curveballs thrown our way, the better!  As far as the socializing aspect goes, there is always voice communication available if people want to socialize while simultaneously playing through intense combat mechanics.  Downtime still existed.  It's not like someone could just pull 50 mobs straight without stopping for regen, even with a perfect composition.  As far as I'm concerned, what Evoras stated as potential issues feel more like opportunities.  I appreciate the gesture of coming up with various other effects or temporary buffs that scale and whatnot, but that's actually way more complex of a system.  For the sake of keeping things simple and minimizing any effort spent on this concept, a scaling XP bonus shared by the group would be perfectly fine.

    Finally ... one very important fact.  XP chains would make multi-boxing more difficult.  It's been stated that Pantheon will be a game that is so mechanically intense that it would be very difficult to multi-box accounts.  XP chains will 100%, without a doubt make multi-boxing less than ideal.  This is because pulling off chains require attention to detail from every single member in the group.  It literally takes focus from every single member to maximize the effect.  While this isn't a tenet, I do believe it was pretty worthwhile to bring up.  XP chains are a very engaging combat mechanic.

     

    Tenets this feature compliments:

    A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics.
    An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
    An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.
    An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.
    A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.
    A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.
    An assertion that player vs. environment should involve more than NPCs -- Engage the World!


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 1, 2017 5:16 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    June 1, 2017 5:25 PM PDT

    jpedrote said:

    @BeaverBiscuit

    "The differences oneADseven is trying to discuss here are more related to things like promoting difficulty/fun, promoting group cohesion, and promoting player skill. His only argument about experience appears to be the same one you seem to have, "it doesn't really matter". See previous novels for further information."

    I don't see how XP bonus chains promotes this. If your goal is fast XP farm you would already have a cohesive group with all the roles and best possible synergies filled, having XP bonus chains would not influence your grouping composition decisions if you already had the goal of min/maxing XP gains. How does it promote player skill, because of the bonus XP? Being efficient without the XP bonus chain also gives more XP in a shorter amount of time, it's the exact same thing, a good group (with or without XP bonus) will always get more XP than a weaker group, that's why I say it does not matter, in the end VR will set the pace, and if there's XP bonus or not the game will play the same.

    "Being efficient without the XP bonus chain also gives more XP in a shorter amount of time, it's the exact same thing, a good group (with or without XP bonus) will always get more XP than a weaker group, that's why I sady it does not matter, in the end VR will set the pace, and if there's XP bonus or not the game will play the same."

    I am not a big fan of that mindset.  The pace being set for me, and in the end no matter what it being the exact same.  That's why I like the idea of XP chaining.  It allows players to have influence on their pace.  It allows players to leverage their skill, synergy, and experience to directly impact the rate at which they level.  VR can still design the grind to take X amount of hours, but it becomes much less monotonous, much less grindy, much less repetitive if players are able to have some influence on the rate at which they accumulate XP.  I understand that having a good group can accomplish something similar, but this is separate.  This is a completely separate element outside of how fast you pull or how much damage you do.  Again, it's an additional layer that creates windows of opportunity.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 1, 2017 5:25 PM PDT
    • 1303 posts
    June 1, 2017 5:36 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Hunk said: NoobieDoo, your logic is so flawed in your assessment that I honestly don't even know where to begin. I've seen oneAD attempt to convey his thoughts and the head in the sand mindset here is unbelievably strong. I've skimmed over the responses here

    The way I look at is simple.  If someone can point out how the idea goes against the established tenets of the game, they have my ear on why it has no business being in Pantheon.  That is something I have yet to see.  What I have seen, consistently on this forum for months, is "It's bad for this game because I don't like it."  

    I've personally tried to have long, seasoned, reasonable discussions with you about ideas you've presented, and thought-out rational reasons for that disagreement. I've been met consistently with "You just don't get it, so your reasons are meaningless.". 

    Why is it that a style of gameplay can't simply have those who enjoy it and those who dont? Why must everything either be black or white? Why can't we just accept that we have differing opinions, instead of these threads constantly devolving into name calling and belittlement simply because we seek slightly different things? I don't have to agree with you to respect your position. Can you say the same? 

    • 483 posts
    June 1, 2017 5:55 PM PDT

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    because without chaining, choosing to not fight and rest is an option, before you have completely run out of resources. It is usually going to be safer that way so even the efficient groups will do it unless they are so powerful in the area they can just murder everything.

    The strain of going so long without resting, planning it all out, etc in a chaining system promotes those things.

    Doesn't it have a max bonus cap?

    • 1434 posts
    June 1, 2017 5:57 PM PDT

    I don't even think this is a tenet issue. I don't really think the concept stands in opposition to the tenets in any way. I just legitimately do not see a reason to do it, because the benefit for efficiency already exists inherently.

    On the other hand, I do see potential problems it could create. Exp as it existed in previous games, did not provide a way to easily gauge your exact level of efficiency. If chains are timed (which obviously they would be), that would create an easily discernable metric and therefore a standard players will strive for. When players do not meet that standard, they will likely do whatever it takes to rectify that, including booting members of the party for someone else. Without that obvious metric, it would be of less importance.

    This is also why I don't think we should even see the exact amount of experience we gain each kill to begin with.

    You gained party experience. (all we need)