MordreadRN said:Just because someone doesn't agree with you that doesn't mean they are wrong. Or that they are right. It just means that they don't agree and might not find a thing that you find to be great, fun or whatnot to be great, fun or whatnot :) I loved the way a good group in EQ could do amazing things, escpecially if it was a "non perfect combo" group. I was not a fan of the FFXI way, but that doesn't mean that EQ was better than FFXI, it just means that I liked it better :) In fact, I didn't like the EQ2 way of doing things either. I loved Ciry of Heroes. Different games, different ideas. Some loved it, some didn't - So just trying to say, we are all diffferent and there will (most likely) never be anything that we can all agree on, the important thing is to try to find the one thing that gets close to what you like. If it is not in place A, it might in place B. Or C. Or Z :)
Never said that people who don't agree are wrong. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, it just so happens that the opinion that resonates so consistently by many is one that resembles the characteristics of the crab mentality. People can justify their actions all they want but when you constantly disparage the ideas of another rather than contributing some of your own, I call that a crab mentality. That's my opinion on the vibe I have observed ... that doesen't make it right or wrong, just my reflection of what I have seen. It's even worse when people downplay an idea based on false narratives, never taking a moment to absorb legitimate responses that are given. An example in this thread is the notion that XP chains speed up the leveling process. They don't have to ... it all depends on how they are implemented. They can slow it down, considerably, all while reducing monotony and adding depth and flavor. As I mentioned earlier, there are only 6-7 people I have seen on this forum with the crab mentality, several who have popped up on this thread. If you offer negative criticism 10x more often than you share your own ideas, that's crab mentality in my book. There are plenty who don't do that and they are perfectly okay in my book. I have no issue with you or your opinion at all MordreadRN, happy to have heard your opinion on the matter. Thanks for sharing.
BeaverBiscuit said:Pantheon seems to like down time, and the need to chain your kills tends to promote NOT having down time. Usually it's a really cool thing, but for now I'd have to say keep it out of Pantheon.
They may embrace the idea of downtime, but whose to say that it needs to be enforced in all aspects of gameplay? What if their plan for intended downtime revolves around travel mechanics, trade, or something else? I have no issue with downtime. They also said they don't want the grind to feel so monotonous ... what's more monotonous than having downtime between every couple pulls? I don't want to fall asleep when I'm crawling a dungeon ... just ask anybody playing on Agnarr right now how exciting the combat mechanics are. I know people who are dual boxing main tank / main healer and still falling asleep in their chair.
DuxDux said:Having never played EQ I can't really say how well the EXPing worked there, but as a FFXI vet I can say I really enjoyed the FFXI EXP chains and I would love to see a similar system in Pantheon.
I still remember the party fighting weapons in Sky when we hit chain 300.
I really wish I would have played FFXI longer. I eventually moved to EQ2. I had a good time playing EQ2 but it never came close to the fun I had in FFXI. I loved BCNM's ... Sky ... Dynamis. I loved how the contested had their hyper versions ala Behemoth / King Behemoth, Adamantoise / Aspidochelone, Fafnir / Niddhog, etc. I loved the economy ... the travel time ... the challenge of getting a good group together and then holding it long enough to bang out a level. I loved the rarity of the NM's and how valuable their loot was in the game. Loved how difficult harvesting was ... loved how the 3 major cities were in constant conflict to claim the territories of the world to earn their city a temporary bonus. I loved the diversity of subclasses and how they promoted veteran player activity in every level range through all stages of the game. It never got boring ... it never grew stale. It was a hell of a game for sure. If it wasn't for the latency advantage that JP had over NA regarding contested pulls, I never would have left that game.
XI vet here I haven't posted in a while but I am all for exp chains. I think it would be better than an automatic group bonus and make people work for extra exp and it's no more gimmicky than factions or any other mechanism in a MMO.
It's a gimmick that pulls focus from the world/mobs to the system itself. Why make the next pull? If the answer is something to do with the world, then I find that legitimate (such as to get deeper in the dungeon, or to get to a mob prior to respawn, or to advance our character, etc.) If the answer is to take advantage of a game system then I'd rather find another way to achieve the same goal.
A stated reason for this system is to encourage better play/teamwork. I'd rather have a system that encourages good game play through skill use or tactics than an arbitrary system that has no real bearing on the world or the players within. I'm not one to get hyped over the 300 kill-chain that has no meaning outside of the system itself. I'd be much more impressed with a system that encouraged teamwork. Prior games have tried this to some extent with the skill chaining, and sadly quite underwhelming across the board. I'm guessing the disposition system (as someone earlier mentioned) will bring some of this into play and I'd rather go down that path than the OP suggested one.
As for the xp buff, it's either an xp buff for the players that can effectively utilize it, or it's an xp penalty to those who cannot. I'd rather not have the bonus/penalty at all (not in this form).
@OneADSeven
It's not my intention to make you feel attacked or your ideas unwanted. I appreciate your enthusiasm and the effort you put into these forums and elsewhere. Many of us are wary of the ideas being thrown around because we feel they either 1) solve a problem that doesn't exist, or 2) could be solved within existing game systems already outlined. If anything, the last 15 years of MMO gaming have taught us to not be so anxious for all the new touted bells and whistles. Like you, though, we trust that the VR team has it well in-hand and has the ability and xp necessary to provide a game we can all enjoy and lose ourselves in their world.
@Archaen
You're throwing out a ton of assessments of the proposed system that don't really make any sense. I don't mean that in an offensive way. It just doesn't make any sense.
Archaen said:It's a gimmick that pulls focus from the world/mobs to the system itself. Why make the next pull? If the answer is something to do with the world, then I find that legitimate (such as to get deeper in the dungeon, or to get to a mob prior to respawn, or to advance our character, etc.) If the answer is to take advantage of a game system then I'd rather find another way to achieve the same goal.
I see zero evidence that this mechanic is a "gimmick that pulls focus from the world/mobs to the system itself". The objective of grinding mobs is to get XP. That could easily be called a "gimmick that pulls focus from the world/mobs to the system itself", but you decide to draw the line at getting more XP for consecutive kills? I don't get it.
Grinding mobs has always been about XP. Whether the number is static or changes based on a condition (consecutive kills) is suddenly immersion breaking? Reality isn't linear, either, so even an appeal to realism doesn't work here.
Archaen said:A stated reason for this system is to encourage better play/teamwork. I'd rather have a system that encourages good game play through skill use or tactics than an arbitrary system that has no real bearing on the world or the players within. I'm not one to get hyped over the 300 kill-chain that has no meaning outside of the system itself. I'd be much more impressed with a system that encouraged teamwork. Prior games have tried this to some extent with the skill chaining, and sadly quite underwhelming across the board. I'm guessing the disposition system (as someone earlier mentioned) will bring some of this into play and I'd rather go down that path than the OP suggested one.
Nothing has any meaning outside of the meaning we give it. Saying that you find more meaning over another is great, as long as we can agree that it's nothing more than your opinion. The phrasing of your post makes it sound like the system is objectively meaningless, in which case I have some bad news.
Archaen said:As for the xp buff, it's either an xp buff for the players that can effectively utilize it, or it's an xp penalty to those who cannot. I'd rather not have the bonus/penalty at all (not in this form).
A player who is in a less effective group, guild, etc. is always "penalized" compared to a player who is not. If you don't like this specific implementation, that's great, as I said before. However, it can not be called a "penalty" in any meaningful sense.
Archaen said:It's a gimmick that pulls focus from the world/mobs to the system itself. Why make the next pull? If the answer is something to do with the world, then I find that legitimate (such as to get deeper in the dungeon, or to get to a mob prior to respawn, or to advance our character, etc.) If the answer is to take advantage of a game system then I'd rather find another way to achieve the same goal.
A stated reason for this system is to encourage better play/teamwork. I'd rather have a system that encourages good game play through skill use or tactics than an arbitrary system that has no real bearing on the world or the players within. I'm not one to get hyped over the 300 kill-chain that has no meaning outside of the system itself. I'd be much more impressed with a system that encouraged teamwork. Prior games have tried this to some extent with the skill chaining, and sadly quite underwhelming across the board. I'm guessing the disposition system (as someone earlier mentioned) will bring some of this into play and I'd rather go down that path than the OP suggested one.
As for the xp buff, it's either an xp buff for the players that can effectively utilize it, or it's an xp penalty to those who cannot. I'd rather not have the bonus/penalty at all (not in this form).
@OneADSeven
It's not my intention to make you feel attacked or your ideas unwanted. I appreciate your enthusiasm and the effort you put into these forums and elsewhere. Many of us are wary of the ideas being thrown around because we feel they either 1) solve a problem that doesn't exist, or 2) could be solved within existing game systems already outlined. If anything, the last 15 years of MMO gaming have taught us to not be so anxious for all the new touted bells and whistles. Like you, though, we trust that the VR team has it well in-hand and has the ability and xp necessary to provide a game we can all enjoy and lose ourselves in their world.
"Never was a fan of the "chaining" system for FF.
First off, we don't need Yet-Another-System that has no real impact on the game, and is more detrimental than helpful. I'd rather the focus of my gaming be on the world rather than if I'm adhering to some arbitrary system.
Second, a system like this only speeds up the levelling for good players. They don't need it. The game doesn't need it. Let's not spend time on it."
I appreciate that it may not be your intention to come off that way, but please read what you posted. When you imply that the system would have no real impact on the game, that it's more detrimental than helpful, it isn't needed ... or that it's not worthy of spending time on, that to me definitely comes off as if the idea is unwanted. I came on here to talk about a feature that DID work. You mention that prior games tried skill chaining and that it was underwhelming. Okay, this isn't skill-chaining. The "Art of XP Chaining" had nothing to do with skill-chaining. Secondly, it wasn't underwhelming. As many FFXI veterans have attested, it was an engaging system that offered depth and rewarded skill ... two things that many MMO players tend to favor.
If you didn't play FFXI to max level, it's understandable that you wouldn't be able to appreciate the awesomeness that was XP chaining. Liav didn't play it but he still sees the potential. To Liav, I can only tell you that it was WAY better than you are even imagining. I have spent thousands of hours grinding in MMO's and never has there been a more engaging grind experience than what I had in FFXI. It wasn't even close. Their XP system was unlike anything I have seen in any other MMO I have played and that's what made it so special. They had a truly unique flavor to that game. This feature isn't being touted as a new bell or whistle. It's a tried and true system that resonated with FFXI players.
You mention you would be much more impressed by a system that encouraged teamwork. That's exactly what the XP chain system did. If you wanted to utilize it to maximum effect, you absolutely needed awesome teamwork and synergy in the group. Your puller had to be on their A game and had to work hand in hand with the tank, executing quick pulls and aggro tradeoffs. The DPS needed to be on their A game to ensure that they could burn a mob down fast enough before the timer ran out. Cycling abilities and getting a good rotation down to handle multiple chains required skill and experience. Healers had to manage their mana and chip in with DPS. Support players were needed for their various buffs and sustain. It literally took the entire group to contribute from start to finish, almost flawlessly, to obtain a maximum chain. I have never seen anything quite like it. It turned "farming orc camps for 3 hours" into a session packed with strategy. If you messed up your chain, it wasn't a huge deal ... but you knew you could do better. You would learn something. You would keep going at it until you perfected your craft.
NPC dispositions sound great, I'm truly excited for them. But they don't just "replace" what XP chains brought to the table. If anything, both of these systems would compliment each other. Again, I don't want to get into a huge debate on whether or not they are "needed" in Pantheon. I'm not saying they are. I just want to make it unequivocally clear that they were a fun mechanic in FFXI that compliment many of the tenets that have been shared for Pantheon. It's really that simple. Imagine going into work one day with an extra Snickers bar in your backpack ... and then when you get there, a friend tells you "Man, I could really go for a Snickers." Wouldn't it feel nice knowing you just happened to have one? Then imagine if another co-worker came by and said "Hey there ... we aren't allowed to have Snickers in here ... you seriously need to put that away or I'm reporting you to HR." Or another example ... "Hey, Snickers are gross. Candy bars don't need peanuts... Milky Ways are best. Can't believe you guys like Snickers ... it's like you just don't get it."
I respect that other people have their own opinions ... what bothers me is when I try to share an example or enlighten someone to something that they very well could appreciate if they give it a chance, but they turn around, offended, angry that I am trying to suggest something to them. When I share my ideas on here, I'm mostly trying to reach out to people who are willing to give an idea a chance. I'm not trying to offend someone that doesen't want to hear about it. If you don't want to entertain an idea, or give a suggestion a chance, please just don't bother reading my threads. Don't come in with the stance that you're going to shut an idea down as soon as you hear something that doesen't resonate close to your heart. I am bringing it up for a reason ... I'm a passionate gamer ... I know there are many others just like me here in this community. We are drawn to this game for many of the same reasons ... but we've had different experiences that have lead to those reasons being important to us. When people open up more and give others a fair chance, they might learn something new or see an angle they haven't considered before.
I may seem to get defensive a bit but that's because my ideas are constantly being disparaged by the same select few people that literally trounce on any thread I post on. I am trying to share fun memories, to reminisce with others, to see if their perspective was similar to my own. From what I have seen so far, from the folks who actually played FFXI long enough to get a max level character, they enjoyed the XP chain feature. Surely that has to count for something? We can't possibly all be suckers that care more about arbitrary systems, unneccessary mechanics, or detrimental features than actually playing the game right? FFXI was a game filled with danger ... a world where death was a punishment, not an inconvenience. They did a lot of things right ... and their XP system was one of them. Every level was special ... every camp was engaging. Every decision had risk ... and the more risky ones generally lead to more reward. The XP Chain feature was a wonderful compliment to risk vs reward. Is it worth pulling that 5'th mob, knowing your group is low on resources, your tanks HP is low, and that there is only 12 seconds to kill it? It's pretty dangerous ... but if you pull it off, if you kill this thing ... you'll get a nice little chunk of XP for the effort. That's what it was all about. It turned the monotonous grind session into a session filled with difficult decisions and those who became good at consistently making the right decision at the right time were rewarded for it. It was a good feeling.
oneADseven said:FFXI used an XP chain system. Just curious if something like this would ever be considered for Pantheon? It's not a huge deal to me either way but I enjoyed the added depth that it provided to the "grind" -- it really paid off to have a great group composition and experienced players. Would like to hear feedback from other FFXI players as well ... what were your thoughts on the XP chain feature? Was it something you enjoyed? I haven't seen anything quite like it in other games but it always stuck out to me as a feature I enjoyed while I played that game. It was rather difficult to pull off consistent bonus XP chains but if you managed to do it, you could FEEL the difference on your progress bar. It certainly turned pulling into an art and provided another layer of strategy to the flow of combat.
Shooting at the dark here, you mean like bonus xp for grouping? More in your post would help people like myself understand what FFXI had in a xp chain system.
Crazzie said:oneADseven said:FFXI used an XP chain system. Just curious if something like this would ever be considered for Pantheon? It's not a huge deal to me either way but I enjoyed the added depth that it provided to the "grind" -- it really paid off to have a great group composition and experienced players. Would like to hear feedback from other FFXI players as well ... what were your thoughts on the XP chain feature? Was it something you enjoyed? I haven't seen anything quite like it in other games but it always stuck out to me as a feature I enjoyed while I played that game. It was rather difficult to pull off consistent bonus XP chains but if you managed to do it, you could FEEL the difference on your progress bar. It certainly turned pulling into an art and provided another layer of strategy to the flow of combat.
Shooting at the dark here, you mean like bonus xp for grouping? More in your post would help people like myself understand what FFXI had in a xp chain system.
I'm probably coming off as the walking and talking definition of insanity here but ...
XP chaining was a system used in FFXI that encouraged successive pulling with minimal downtime. Mobs had to be even con or higher to count, and the maximum XP bonus awarded (for full chain) was 50%. It was very difficult to pull off because as soon as you killed a mob, a timer would start on how long you had before you had to kill the next mob. This meant that every second counted ... before the first mob was dead, your puller would be peeling away, (usually a ranger) continuing to damage the mob with ranged DPS while they sought out the next mob to tag.
The timer would get smaller and smaller as more time went on, and this went hand in hand with your resources simultaneously depleting. Sometimes luck played a role because one of the roamers that you would be banking on for your chain just wouldn't be in the area. Sometimes you would get more than you bargained for when you tagged a far-off mob and then while pulling it back a respawn popped on you.
It was a system that rewarded skill and teamwork. All players were on their toes and everybody had a role to fill. It complimented risk vs reward because there were many situations where you would have to ask yourself "We're low on resources, but we're 1 mob away from the max chain and we only have 18 seconds left ... is it worth pulling?" Sometimes over-zealous pulls would get you killed ... and death was a punishment. But finding that balance of maximizing the XP chains while not putting yourself in jeapordy was a very fun and engaging combat dynamic. There was a hard cap on the chain (5-6 mobs when I played and that was plenty) and if you pulled off the full chain, you got a nice little chunk of bonus XP.
Here is a link that provides an explanation, not sure if it paints a clear picture but it covers the basics: http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_Chain
I am in the camp that thinks this feature should not be included. As others have stated, a good group will already be earning xp at a faster rate based on better dps, faster pulls, more knowledge of abilities and zone, etc.. I think this will just devolve into another mechanic to keep people from taking chances on random pick up players. I know I will be starting the game with a lot of friends who are experienced MMOs players and I don't want another mechanic that makes us hesitate to invite anyone that my not drive optimal xp gain.
I really enjoyed EQs approach with the 6th member was essentialy just extra and that opened groups up to allowing for sub-optimal makeups. Gained some good friends by being open to setups that weren't traditional. I didn't care if they were the best player in the game and it had no negative impact on the group.
Prindan said:I am in the camp that thinks this feature should not be included. As others have stated, a good group will already be earning xp at a faster rate based on better dps, faster pulls, more knowledge of abilities and zone, etc.. I think this will just devolve into another mechanic to keep people from taking chances on random pick up players. I know I will be starting the game with a lot of friends who are experienced MMOs players and I don't want another mechanic that makes us hesitate to invite anyone that my not drive optimal xp gain.
I really enjoyed EQs approach with the 6th member was essentialy just extra and that opened groups up to allowing for sub-optimal makeups. Gained some good friends by being open to setups that weren't traditional. I didn't care if they were the best player in the game and it had no negative impact on the group.
If you were fine with playing in a sub-optimal group in EQ, and really enjoyed it even, not caring whether players were the best or not ... why couldn't you do that in a game where XP chains exist?
Prindan said:I am in the camp that thinks this feature should not be included. As others have stated, a good group will already be earning xp at a faster rate based on better dps, faster pulls, more knowledge of abilities and zone, etc.. I think this will just devolve into another mechanic to keep people from taking chances on random pick up players. I know I will be starting the game with a lot of friends who are experienced MMOs players and I don't want another mechanic that makes us hesitate to invite anyone that my not drive optimal xp gain.
I really enjoyed EQs approach with the 6th member was essentialy just extra and that opened groups up to allowing for sub-optimal makeups. Gained some good friends by being open to setups that weren't traditional. I didn't care if they were the best player in the game and it had no negative impact on the group.
I have to agree here, mostly. I am not completely against the chaining XP ideas and would not be bothered if they are put in.
However, I think they would reduce PUGs. Progression players are already wary about letting in an unknown or weaker player. They would be even less open, if the newbie would risk them losing their bonus XP.
Good groups are going to get good XP as it is. Do we need to reward them even further?
I would rather see something that helps out the less skilled get better. Not sure what it would be.
I remember some games have a bonus for a full group, encouraging people to always have a full group. This definitely helps PUGs.
But, overall, do we really need more systems?
Beefcake said:Prindan said:I am in the camp that thinks this feature should not be included. As others have stated, a good group will already be earning xp at a faster rate based on better dps, faster pulls, more knowledge of abilities and zone, etc.. I think this will just devolve into another mechanic to keep people from taking chances on random pick up players. I know I will be starting the game with a lot of friends who are experienced MMOs players and I don't want another mechanic that makes us hesitate to invite anyone that my not drive optimal xp gain.
I really enjoyed EQs approach with the 6th member was essentialy just extra and that opened groups up to allowing for sub-optimal makeups. Gained some good friends by being open to setups that weren't traditional. I didn't care if they were the best player in the game and it had no negative impact on the group.
I have to agree here, mostly. I am not completely against the chaining XP ideas and would not be bothered if they are put in.
However, I think they would reduce PUGs. Progression players are already wary about letting in an unknown or weaker player. They would be even less open, if the newbie would risk them losing their bonus XP.
Good groups are going to get good XP as it is. Do we need to reward them even further?
I would rather see something that helps out the less skilled get better. Not sure what it would be.
I remember some games have a bonus for a full group, encouraging people to always have a full group. This definitely helps PUGs.
But, overall, do we really need more systems?
I believe the XP chain feature does help the less skilled players get better. I remember being a newb in FFXI, and grouping with veteran players who were working on their subclass. They showed me how to XP chain. They had a vested interest in teaching me how to improve my gameplay / group mechanics because it would yield additional XP for them.
Archaen said:It's a gimmick that pulls focus from the world/mobs to the system itself. Why make the next pull? If the answer is something to do with the world, then I find that legitimate (such as to get deeper in the dungeon, or to get to a mob prior to respawn, or to advance our character, etc.) If the answer is to take advantage of a game system then I'd rather find another way to achieve the same goal.
A stated reason for this system is to encourage better play/teamwork. I'd rather have a system that encourages good game play through skill use or tactics than an arbitrary system that has no real bearing on the world or the players within.
This makes sense to me. It also seems like it would encourage farming easy to moderately difficult enemies rather than harder ones. That being said, if it ends up being part of the game I won't be upset and might end up enjoying it.
zoltar said:Archaen said:It's a gimmick that pulls focus from the world/mobs to the system itself. Why make the next pull? If the answer is something to do with the world, then I find that legitimate (such as to get deeper in the dungeon, or to get to a mob prior to respawn, or to advance our character, etc.) If the answer is to take advantage of a game system then I'd rather find another way to achieve the same goal.
A stated reason for this system is to encourage better play/teamwork. I'd rather have a system that encourages good game play through skill use or tactics than an arbitrary system that has no real bearing on the world or the players within.
This makes sense to me. It also seems like it would encourage farming easy to moderately difficult enemies rather than harder ones. That being said, if it ends up being part of the game I won't be upset and might end up enjoying it.
In order to maximize the bonus from a chain, you were inclined to fight more difficult mobs. The more difficult they were, the higher their XP ... the higher the XP, the bigger the bonus as it was % based.
Beefcake said:Prindan said:I am in the camp that thinks this feature should not be included. As others have stated, a good group will already be earning xp at a faster rate based on better dps, faster pulls, more knowledge of abilities and zone, etc.. I think this will just devolve into another mechanic to keep people from taking chances on random pick up players. I know I will be starting the game with a lot of friends who are experienced MMOs players and I don't want another mechanic that makes us hesitate to invite anyone that my not drive optimal xp gain.
I really enjoyed EQs approach with the 6th member was essentialy just extra and that opened groups up to allowing for sub-optimal makeups. Gained some good friends by being open to setups that weren't traditional. I didn't care if they were the best player in the game and it had no negative impact on the group.
I have to agree here, mostly. I am not completely against the chaining XP ideas and would not be bothered if they are put in.
However, I think they would reduce PUGs. Progression players are already wary about letting in an unknown or weaker player. They would be even less open, if the newbie would risk them losing their bonus XP.
Good groups are going to get good XP as it is. Do we need to reward them even further?
I would rather see something that helps out the less skilled get better. Not sure what it would be.
I remember some games have a bonus for a full group, encouraging people to always have a full group. This definitely helps PUGs.
But, overall, do we really need more systems?
Exp chains become the expectation among PUGs and ends up a form of DPS/performance meter. It would also push PUGs towards fishing for optimal group comps instead of putting together fringe or interesting combinations of classes with what is immediately available. Gotta have that mana regen buff or we'll never be able to chain near enough bonus, because not getting the bonus is seen as a penalty.
What happens when you pull your area and have it broken in? Is your group supposed to wait until all the mobs to repop before starting to pull again so you can chain, instead of pulling as they respawn? I mean I guess that falls in with extreme competition because if another group takes one of your mobs they can cut the legs right out of your chain. Does XP chaining do anything for you at max level or is it just a means for more focused players to get ahead in levels at a much faster rate?
If you are a good group you are already likely pulling 1.5x the experience of an average group, with a chain you would now be doubling over others.
Being bad DPS in a pug is always frowned upon by a subset of players. It doesn't matter what mechanics you do or don't introduce, there will always be an idiot who joins a group with unreasonable expectations about what you're going to accomplish.
This mechanic wouldn't really change the dynamics of a group in that aspect. Really toxic people will always exist. If I join a group of randoms for XP without setting any groundwork first, I'm going in with pretty low expectations, and I probably don't care if we underachieve because that's a reasonable expectation. A guy who expects to be getting a 150+ chain with a group of total randoms in an ineffcient grind spot is just a moron.
My personal opinion is that the bonus should be easy enough to achieve so that the majority of the playerbase can achieve a relatively high chain, but higher chains would probably require a bit of luck for an average player. Chains would be easily accessible to the majority of the playerbase, it's just that the maximum benefit it could provide would likely be very difficult to achieve outside of optimal circumstances.
If your casual grind group is managing to maintain several 50-100 chains, you won't be as efficient as the group maintaining a 150+ chain for an extended period, but the difference won't be absurdly high. Instead, the group with the huge chain simply has an added layer of benefit for their ability to optimize their playstyle.
This is by no means meant to be an exclusive mechanic that only a small number of people partake it. It simply ensures that you're rewarded sufficiently for good play and breaks up the monotony a little bit by giving you additinoal goals to strive for.
oneADseven said:They may embrace the idea of downtime, but whose to say that it needs to be enforced in all aspects of gameplay? What if their plan for intended downtime revolves around travel mechanics, trade, or something else? I have no issue with downtime. They also said they don't want the grind to feel so monotonous ... what's more monotonous than having downtime between every couple pulls? I don't want to fall asleep when I'm crawling a dungeon ... just ask anybody playing on Agnarr right now how exciting the combat mechanics are. I know people who are dual boxing main tank / main healer and still falling asleep in their chair.
Fair enough, it's VR's game and they don't need all aspects to follow the same ideology, so long as their game works toward their end goal.
However, where killing a couple things and sitting is monotonous, killing a million things and getting yelled at when you arent willing to poop in your sock, or aren't good enough at killing lots of things in a row despite the other tactical advantages of your class/build, is an annoyance too.
There is a need for a balance between the two sorts of gameplay; I just don't feel chaining is the way to get that balance because it pushes too much for never stopping to rest.
With the game being difficult, stopping to rest can be made into a serious part of tactical gameplay. During your tactical short rests, you watch the blue bar some but not enough to get sick of it, and pass a few lines with your buds.
Big rests, then, tend to ONLY happen after big, epic, battles. (Like a boss or if you completely failed on pulling something.) The waits afterwords are long, but the conversation/emotions are often rewarding as you list off all of the heroic deeds which were done to keep the group/raid/soloist alive in a seemingly impossible situation, or at least get them back to their corpses. Most importantly, these long rests happen decently randomly and, hopefully, not so often you get flat out sick of them.
With chaining I can't help but envision spending everything you have every time you start fighting. Many would expect you to be SO good all the time you don't risk dying in the process of spending everything you have recklessly, rather than just playing safe and fun. I know Pantheon is SUPPOSED to be really tough but adding this on top of that feels...stressful.
Secondly, After you are done with your chain, you have to regenerate EVERYTHING. You'd think this would also be great for conversation and good emotions; But I feel it would lose it's flair relatively quickly compared to the boss/overpull situations described before. After all, using the chaining system efficiently likely means repeating the process over and over again, in a completely planned and repetetive manner.
Granted, your plans would be disrupted, and you would also still encounter bosses. However, rather than enjoying the interesting situations, players could treat losing the chain COUPLED with having a big downtime in a very negative manner.
Finally, keeping that chain up would become more and more important to you in comparison to good old fashioned camping values/morals. Things like respecting other people's camps, or tactically camping a place holder in such a way you are ready right when the boss spawns, might start taking a back seat.
Pantheon seems like a game which will focus on being both laid back (downtime/positive community) and difficult (old style mmo difficulty settings), at the same time. Chaining, while by itself a fun, proven, and rewarding system, would pose a likely unnecessary risk to that perfect balance in Pantheon.
P.S. Many complaints I see to non-chaining strategies used in games are that they are boring. VR plans on stopping multiboxxing by making the game so complicated, with so much need to immediately react, and spend resources on new, exciting behaviors of enemy mobs, you can't handle it. Does that sound like a boring system? Does it even sound like VR will allow you to chain multiple fights together in any sort of reliable manner, bonus or no bonus?
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Never said that people who don't agree are wrong. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, it just so happens that the opinion that resonates so consistently by many is one that resembles the characteristics of the crab mentality. People can justify their actions all they want but when you constantly disparage the ideas of another rather than contributing some of your own, I call that a crab mentality. That's my opinion on the vibe I have observed ... that doesen't make it right or wrong, just my reflection of what I have seen. It's even worse when people downplay an idea based on false narratives, never taking a moment to absorb legitimate responses that are given. An example in this thread is the notion that XP chains speed up the leveling process. They don't have to ... it all depends on how they are implemented. They can slow it down, considerably, all while reducing monotony and adding depth and flavor. As I mentioned earlier, there are only 6-7 people I have seen on this forum with the crab mentality, several who have popped up on this thread. If you offer negative criticism 10x more often than you share your own ideas, that's crab mentality in my book. There are plenty who don't do that and they are perfectly okay in my book. I have no issue with you or your opinion at all MordreadRN, happy to have heard your opinion on the matter. Thanks for sharing.
This was more or less directed at all of us but thank you as well, it is good to discuss things, even if one does not always agree. Even in disagreement you can find common ground at times or even better come to a new understandment/find a third way :)
Feyshtey said:Searril said:There are some here who will automatically reject anything that doesn't increase the amount of tedium in the game. That became apparent to me a long time ago. Just keep posting your ideas. Whether I agree with you or not it's still fun to think on them, and you never know when a particular idea will spawn a different idea in a dev's head. It happens for me at work all the time.
Another way to put this is, "There are some here that don't see how making the experience of the game pass by more quickly makes the game better, or contributes to its longevity, and any system that is predominantly meant to do so is automatically suspect."
My wording was more accurate.
oneADseven said:Feyshtey said:Searril said:There are some here who will automatically reject anything that doesn't increase the amount of tedium in the game. That became apparent to me a long time ago. Just keep posting your ideas. Whether I agree with you or not it's still fun to think on them, and you never know when a particular idea will spawn a different idea in a dev's head. It happens for me at work all the time.
Another way to put this is, "There are some here that don't see how making the experience of the game pass by more quickly makes the game better, or contributes to its longevity, and any system that is predominantly meant to do so is automatically suspect."
And again, the system doesen't necessarily make the game pass by more quickly. That's totally subjective to the grand total of hours that ends up being the goal. XP chains don't need to speed anything up. They can slow it down considerably if you start thinking outside the box instead of being consumed by a preconceived notion that everything is suspect or doomed for failure.
Let me clarify something to go with this. I never played FFXI, and have never used this XP chaining feature, so I can't comment on it from personal experience.
What I find funny is that my gut reaction (again, not based on personal experience) is to oppose the idea. My big beef with the attitude of certain people in the thread was that, even though I also am not in love with this idea, there are certain people here who just crapped on the idea because they automatically think anything is going to make people level 1-50 in 3 hours, and unless you're adding to the tedium of the game your idea is always bad.
I'm just really sick of that attitude. And yes, it is only a small handful that act that way constantly and yes everyone knows who they are and their opinions are regarded as such. But it strikes me as noteworthy that I feel I need to support a person posting an idea that I don't even like because of the ridiculous negativity always coming from a small handful.
A tip is this: If you find the substance of your argument is that "it's not needed" or you use terms like "wow clone" or "epeen" or "uber raiders" or "instant gratification" or similar such things then please be advised that your position is not well-conceived and you should stop and consider the situation more carefully before lashing out at others.
As for this idea in particular, my concern is that it would actually make leveling slower, not faster, because the expected gain would be based on people performing constant flawless chains. That means that if I'm trying to help out a lesser geared or skilled group then I'm going to see dramatically lower gains than I normally would. Yes, I'm one of those evil people who is destroying the world who wants to get to level 50 within a decent time frame.
But, for the love of pete, let the guy explain the system and at least try to look at it at little before automatically crapping all over it.
I realize that there are probably some people posting here that really just want an EQ clone, and anything that doesnt fit into that little box will be rejected by them. I'm not one of them. I've shown support for some systems people have promoted, and I've posted ideas myself that were not "canon". I've also played dozens of MMO's, and I've left almost all of them disappointed, and one common thread among them that I didnt like was systems that modify the core gameplay mechanics based on oddball criteria. I've said it before, and I'll say it again (and it'll be ignored again) that I simply dont like gameplay ideas that by their nature change the abilities/skills/effects/outcomes of a player's actions based on following a pattern, or doing things under a shot clock, or trigger bonus criteria, or any number of other things like that I've seen suggested.
I just want to play an RPG. Where my character is simply a character in a world, doing things with other characters. I don't want to feel like i'm playing Candy Crush, trying to get the maximum sparklies so I can post my brag on Facebook.
And for the criticisms of the zealotus EQ fanboys who just want that clone with better graphics, I agree. I don't want that either. I do want to see new ideas and new gameplay possibilities. New spells, new takes on races/classes, etc. But I would point out that it is equally zealotus to doggedly defend a "new" idea regardless of who might be skeptical or flatout opposed simply because you have a personal investment of ego in it, having been the one to present it. People who disagree with a notion are not any more wrong than the person that posted the idea. Ever. They simply have different preferences. While I've noted people here on the forums saying they have largely stopped posting because of the people that refuse to accept new ideas, I've largely stopped posting because I'm pretty tired of being told that if I don't agree with -a concept- that I'm somehow an obstructionist, and that I better just get on board or be labled as universally bad.
Caveats:
1. DEV forum rationale #1 employed: Consider pro’s/Con’s of an idea objectively
2. DEV forum rationale #2 employed: Suggest adjustments/alternatives if merited
3. Not having played FFXI I can only go by what has been described by those who have.
When I read the OP’s suggestion, I tried to consider the Nett effect of this mechanic from a player’s perspective. While I did feel it would act as an incentive for groups to stay together for longer sessions, I considered much the same issues as BeaverBiscuit (above) did initially.
On further inspection I was worried by the following:
1. Advanced AI/Dispositions : these will have severe impact on any chains
2. Down-time in Combat : these will minimise it at cost to socializing
3. Anisotropic mob zone density : makes steady pull-rates difficult/situational
All these factors seem to indicate that the use of chains will likely have a detrimental effect on some aspects of game play.
However, that is not to say some variation of this may not be viable since the positives:
1. Encourages players to master their class based on group composition
2. Trains ‘pullers’ in efficient/consistent pulling techniques
and not worthless by any means.
Suggestion:
To my mind, the ‘bonus’ mechanic here has aims to encourage groups to stay together and maintain a (certain minimum threshold of) pull rate ... and presumably make the time grouped more fun (otherwise these seems little point in it!).
I am therefore of the opinion that a direct XP benefit to these activities is likely not in line with the stated aims of Pantheon. However, if the benefit was in something other than direct XP, I think this kind of ‘achievement marker’ system may have a positive effect and be in line with Pantheon’s tenets!
Accolade or Achievement based modifiers:
E.g. Rewards for the following (either ‘achievement’ or temporary/permenant buffs)
‘Puller’ / +1% range : Pull 5 blue+ mobs in 15 mins
‘Good Puller’ / +2% range : Pull 15 blue+ mobs in 30 mins
‘Expert Puller’ / +3% range : Pull 30 blue+ mobs in 45 mins
‘Master Puller’ / +5% range: Pull 60 blue+ mobs in 60 mins
‘Ninja’ prefix for accolades where you take no damage, eg ‘Master Ninja Puller’
Other Accolades/Benefits might accrue for the rest of the group for maintaining each of these thresholds while grouped ... dependent on Class etc. All pulled mobs would need to be tagged by the group and also have the group get the ‘kill’ (i.e. do over 50% dmg and/or ‘killing blow’).
There could be a whole series of these covering different areas of grouping, all either offering a small temporary buff or an accolade if VR decide to put those in! If there are enough areas covered by these, it will not lead to groups having fixed ideas about ‘optimum make up’, ‘Optimum zones’ or such like.
Evoras, 'Master Pet Wrangler' he hopes!