Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

XP Bonus Chains

This topic has been closed.
    • 1095 posts
    December 26, 2017 4:27 PM PST

    hackerssuck said:

    oneADseven said:

    FFXI used an XP chain system.  Just curious if something like this would ever be considered for Pantheon?  It's not a huge deal to me either way but I enjoyed the added depth that it provided to the "grind"  --  it really paid off to have a great group composition and experienced players.  Would like to hear feedback from other FFXI players as well ... what were your thoughts on the XP chain feature?  Was it something you enjoyed?  I haven't seen anything quite like it in other games but it always stuck out to me as a feature I enjoyed while I played that game.  It was rather difficult to pull off consistent bonus XP chains but if you managed to do it, you could FEEL the difference on your progress bar.  It certainly turned pulling into an art and provided another layer of strategy to the flow of combat.

    I'm all for anything that makes the game more interesting.  I read a few of the posts of the naysayers, and honestly, I think some of these people just don't like change.  EQ didn't do it that way, so no game needs it.  What the heck?  I already played EQ for going on 18 years off and on.  I would like Pantheon to take mmorpgs to the next level, not just be EQ with a new skin.

    Pantheon is the next level. Ding

    • 1714 posts
    December 27, 2017 8:05 AM PST

    hackerssuck said:

    oneADseven said:

    FFXI used an XP chain system.  Just curious if something like this would ever be considered for Pantheon?  It's not a huge deal to me either way but I enjoyed the added depth that it provided to the "grind"  --  it really paid off to have a great group composition and experienced players.  Would like to hear feedback from other FFXI players as well ... what were your thoughts on the XP chain feature?  Was it something you enjoyed?  I haven't seen anything quite like it in other games but it always stuck out to me as a feature I enjoyed while I played that game.  It was rather difficult to pull off consistent bonus XP chains but if you managed to do it, you could FEEL the difference on your progress bar.  It certainly turned pulling into an art and provided another layer of strategy to the flow of combat.

    I'm all for anything that makes the game more interesting.  I read a few of the posts of the naysayers, and honestly, I think some of these people just don't like change.  EQ didn't do it that way, so no game needs it.  What the heck?  I already played EQ for going on 18 years off and on.  I would like Pantheon to take mmorpgs to the next level, not just be EQ with a new skin.

     

    ANYTHING?

    Listen, this kind of mechanic doesn't need to be in the game. Do you really want to be staring at the same spot on your screen every single encounter waiting for the marker signaling it's your turn to hit your special attack? That's garbage gameplay. What's next, a prompt that says "SNARE NOW" when a mob reaches the HP level they run at? No, use your own eyes and ears and experience with the game to be a better player. Being explicitly told what to do to flies in the face of what this game is about. 

    Here's how players can get an EXP bonus: By being good players. By communciating. By having situational awareness. By having knowledge of the other classes in the game. By having and sharing knowledge of a given area or encounter. By caring about the encounter and your group mates and other people in the world. You can be more efficient, by being more efficient. We do not need yet another "do this exact thing at this exact time" type of gameplay mechanic. Additionally, it is compeltely redundant and unneccessary. The game already provides us with the tools we need to be better players. Some players will be better than others because they pay more attention and care more about what's going on. Those players and their groups will be more effective and efficient. 

    See those blue swirls emanating from that cleric's hands? Maybe it's time to stun it. You can be aware and knowledgable and react appropriately and stop the heal and kill the mob then and there, or you can be unaware or slow and let it heal and spend another 45 seconds beating it down again. One group was efficient and gets more exp and loot, another is less so, all via just playing the darn game. So you didn't know that mob was a cleric? Now you do. So you didn't have a stun memorized? Well now you have a choice to make. The game gives you everything you need to increase your ability to be powerful and efficient, it's up to you to leverage that. 

    In another scenario, your group is fighting shaman mobs who slow. The monk gets slowed every fight and has to ask every time for a cure disease. The cleric in your group says "hang on I don't keep that memmed". A minute goes by while the monk stands there not pulling, or in combat doing 50% of the damage she could be. A better player would recogize the situation, oh, shaman mobs slow, I should mem the spell to counteract that because it is extremely important to the pace and efficiency of our group. Additionally, I should pay attention to what the game tells me(A troglodyte shaman begins to cast a spell. So_and_so has been slowed) so I know when the monk gets slowed so she doesn't have to ask for a cure.

    A better player, playing the game in a smarter more efficient way will stand out. An advanced player might even just straight up recognize the monk is attacking much more slowly than normal without having to be told. They used their faculties and paid attention to what the game was already telling them! There's a beauty in that gameplay whereby 2 people playing the exact same character in the exact same situation are not exactly the same when it comes to their effectiveness. That is a much much better way of allowing people to stand out than by some contrived EXP chain. 

    Want to level faster? Want more loot? Want people to like you? Want to get into that one guild? Be a better player! The game gives you that opportunity and it is a brilliant way of setting players apart from each other without some fake unnecessary gameplay cliche. 

    Your argument against "EQ didn't do it that way, so no game needs it." is very short sighted. In many cases, games have added bad things that have made their games worse, that EQ did not have, that this game should not have either. It has little to nothing to do with EQ not having it and everything to do with it being a crappy thing. EQ had crappy things that shouldn't be in this game either. 

    Nobody is saying make an EQ clone. We all want to capture the magic of old while knowing it has to evolve or it won't be magic. We get it. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at December 27, 2017 8:26 AM PST
    • 49 posts
    January 31, 2018 10:26 AM PST

    First of all you guys have to consider you had to pull mobs your level or higher to get the xp chain and mobs in ff11 didnt die in 10 seconds like most mmo's these days. If you had a good group you could get an xp chain of 2-3 pretty consistantly but a great group who had food/drink and played their classes well would chain 6-7 before needing to rest. You still had downtime but it made people who put in the effort get a little bit more exp from it and people who wanted to do the bare minimum (im looking at you autoattacking afk monka dn rangers in eq :P) not level as fast. It was a truly amazing mechanic and i would love to see it in more games but for some reason they never made it.

    • 3237 posts
    January 31, 2018 10:30 AM PST

    Oh wow, I missed this post by Krixus.  Nice job ignoring the full context of the 9 pages that proceeded your post.  You seem to be confusing XP Chains with Skill Chains.  The best part is how XP chains actually reinforced all of the things you seem to care about.  It's mind boggling how you can be so passionately against something, yet claim to appreciate all of the things that made it great.  When it comes to XP chains, and how they were crafted in FFXI specifically, it's my opinion that they were one of the most satisfying MMO features ever made and that they are perfectly aligned with my interpretation of all things that are important in Pantheon, including downtime.  Seeing people who have zero experience with the system call it crappy makes me think of a person who found oil hundreds of years ago and considered it some sort of disgusting contrived by-product of Planet Earth. 


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 31, 2018 10:49 AM PST
    • 690 posts
    January 31, 2018 10:44 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    Oh wow, I missed this post by Krixus.  Nice job ignoring the full context of the 9 pages that proceeded your post.  You seem to be confusing XP Chains with Skill Chains.  The best part is how XP chains actually reinforced all of the things you seem to care about.  It's mind boggling how you can be so passionately against something, yet claim to appreciate all of the things that made it great.  When it comes to XP chains, and how they were crafted in FFXI specifically, it's my opinion that they were one of the most satisfying MMO features ever made and that they are perfectly aligned with my interpretation of all things that are important in Pantheon, including downtime.  Seeing people who have zero experience with the system call it crappy makes me think of a person who found oil hundreds of years ago and considered it some sort of disgusting contrived by-product of Planet Earth.

    So you laugh at my post, which goes against your opinion, and skoff at krixus, who goes against your opinion. 

    I realize you don't like posts that go against your opinion, but please realise we are writing that WHILE xp chains can do all of these wonderful things for us, we feel that there are better ways, truer to Pantheon's tenets.

    • 3237 posts
    January 31, 2018 10:53 AM PST

    Beaver, I'm not scoffing at anybody.  I'm pointing out how Krixus made several points on swirling markers that tell you when to use certain abilities, and how he referred to that as "garbage gameplay" and "a crappy thing."  In reality, his points aren't even remotely related to how XP chains work.  It's thread derailment, plain and simple.  I don't care if someone disagrees with an opinion but this entire thread is full of examples where people confuse this feature with something that it is not, and then set up strawman arguments against it based on their own delusional misunderstanding of how it actually worked.

    To be fair, yes, I laughed at your post when you attempted to demonstrate how XP chains would violate every tenet of the game.  Some of the examples were such a desperate reach that it was indeed comical ... as was your attempt to call the mechanic a "hand holding feature."  Again, I don't care if people disagree.  I do care when people start calling the feature garbage or crappy, especially when their reasoning is based on fallacy.  From what I have observed, the vast majority of players who actually have experience with XP Chains really enjoyed them.  FFXI had the best grinding experience of any game I have played and it's not even close.  One man's garbage is another man's treasure.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 31, 2018 11:12 AM PST
    • 82 posts
    January 31, 2018 11:03 AM PST

    I love chaining i was a bard in ffxi and with good merit partys we where chaining into the 200s it took ahell of a long time to get that high like all day, I would really love if pantheon had them it was one of the things that made me enjoy ffxi more then everquest.

    • 82 posts
    January 31, 2018 11:03 AM PST

    double post


    This post was edited by Ultra at January 31, 2018 11:03 AM PST
    • 690 posts
    January 31, 2018 11:12 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    Beaver, I'm not scoffing at anybody.  I'm pointing out how Krixus made several points on swirling markers that tell you when to use certain abilities, and how he referred to that as "garbage gameplay" and "a crappy thing."  In reality, his points aren't even remotely related to how XP chains work.  It's thread derailment, plain and simple.  I don't care if someone disagrees with an opinion but this entire thread is full of examples where people confuse this feature with something that it is not, and then set up strawman arguments against it based on their own delusional misunderstanding of how it actually worked.

    To be fair, yes, I laughed at your post when you attempted to demonstrate how XP chains would violate every tenet of the game.  Some of the examples were such a desperate reach that it was indeed comical ... as was your attempt to call the mechanic a "hand holding feature."  Again, I don't care if people disagree.  I do care when people start calling the feature garbage or crappy, especially when their reasoning is based on fallacy.  From what I have observed, the vast majority of players who actually have experience with XP Chains really enjoyed them.  FFXI had the best grinding experience of any game I have played and it's not even close.  One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

    XP chains and skill chains ARE both mechanics which reward you for focusing on doing a bunch of something in a row. We feel that focusing on this "something" detracts from how Pantheon should be played. 

    "garbage gameplay", in Krixus's case, could refer equally to both a number which goes up as you chain skills (and somehow pushes you to chain skills better), and a number which goes up as you chain kills (and somehow pushes you to chain kills better).

    There could be no strawman here, for him they really are the same thing, even if you disagree.

    _________________________________

    You're not the only one who felt my post was trolling and I acknowledge it was poorly written, as I wanted to at least mention every tenet and how xp chaining COULD effect it (negatively or inefficiently). Alas, my wording was bad, my structure was bad, it was a failure.

    Even so, the ideas remain the same. I truly feel challenging gameplay at base can remove the need for kill chains, and be more enjoyable than kill chains. I truly feel that kill chains may divert player attention from many of the game values listed in Pantheon tenets.

    I truly don't feel your arguments contrary to this made any arguments here into strawmen. 

    __________________________

    I should point out that the majority of people who played for a long time on ff11 probably enjoyed it's features. If you assume that the only people with experience regarding xp chains are those who really got into a game with xp chains, then of course your sample size will mainly include people who enjoy it. 

     


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at January 31, 2018 11:38 AM PST
    • 3237 posts
    January 31, 2018 11:22 AM PST

    Last I heard, skill chains were actually being considered for Pantheon.  I get that you and him may not like this sort of thing, but it's actually a primary draw, for me.  I look forward to an extra layer of timing, coordination, and teamwork.  To be clear, this is a strawman:  "What's next, a prompt that says "SNARE NOW" when a mob reaches the HP level they run at?  No, use your own eyes and ears and experience with the game to be a better player. Being explicitly told what to do to flies in the face of what this game is about."


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 31, 2018 11:33 AM PST
    • 690 posts
    January 31, 2018 11:43 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    Last I heard, skill chains were actually being considered for Pantheon.  I get that you and him may not like this sort of thing, but it's actually a primary draw, for me.  I look forward to an extra layer of timing, coordination, and teamwork.  To be clear, this is a strawman:  "What's next, a prompt that says "SNARE NOW" when a mob reaches the HP level they run at?  No, use your own eyes and ears and experience with the game to be a better player. Being explicitly told what to do to flies in the face of what this game is about."

    To me, it looks like he is drawing a line between the "snare now" prompt, and a prompt which tells you what your kill chain is. Both tell you what to do (snare now or kill more stuff to keep up the chain), and potentially draw player's eyes and ears away from the actual game around them. 

    Being able to chain lots of kills can be an indicator of a better player. But it is not the exclusive show of a better player. A game which allows/requires you to tactically rest between fights without worrying about the chains is truer to real challenge, imo of course.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at January 31, 2018 11:47 AM PST
    • 2752 posts
    January 31, 2018 11:50 AM PST

    I think the real argument is that skilled players/groups are already rewarded with more XP by virtue of being more efficient/faster, so why seek further reward? Why push players into a set style of grouping, racing against a ticking time clock measurement? 

     

    XP Chains really mess with the flow of grouping/how a camp works. Instead of fighting hard and breaking in a camp you simply don't break in a camp at all as now you need to wait until a good number of spawns have repoped lest you miss that precious XP chain bonus. Areas with the highest mob density become king. 

    • 3237 posts
    January 31, 2018 12:06 PM PST

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    oneADseven said:

    Last I heard, skill chains were actually being considered for Pantheon.  I get that you and him may not like this sort of thing, but it's actually a primary draw, for me.  I look forward to an extra layer of timing, coordination, and teamwork.  To be clear, this is a strawman:  "What's next, a prompt that says "SNARE NOW" when a mob reaches the HP level they run at?  No, use your own eyes and ears and experience with the game to be a better player. Being explicitly told what to do to flies in the face of what this game is about."

    To me, it looks like he is drawing a line between the "snare now" prompt, and a prompt which tells you what your kill chain is. Both tell you what to do (snare now or kill more stuff to keep up the chain), and potentially draw player's eyes and ears away from the actual game around them. 

    Being able to chain lots of kills can be an indicator of a better player. But it is not the exclusive show of a better player. A game which allows/requires you to tactically rest between fights without worrying about the chains is truer to real challenge, imo of course.

    It's still a strawman.


    straw man
    ˌstrô ˈman/
    noun
    noun: strawman
    1.
    an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

    He's using capital letters as a prompt that tells people to perform a function that will give them a combat advantage over what they are fighting.  XP Chains do not work like that.  If anything, it would be more similar to a debuff showing up on your screen that you then have the option to cure, based on the situation.  You would have a small timer appear on your screen that indicated how much time you had left to kill another even con or higher NPC to qualify for the next link in the chain.  It wasn't a prompt that told you what to do.  It was information that you would analyze and then factor into your overall decision making process based on where you were, what was around you, the resources of your group, etc.  Downtime was quite common when I played FFXI.  As Lodge pointed out, a good group could consistently execute chains of around 3-4 whereas a great group could execute chains of around 5-7 before needing to regen.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 31, 2018 12:09 PM PST
    • 3237 posts
    January 31, 2018 12:16 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    I think the real argument is that skilled players/groups are already rewarded with more XP by virtue of being more efficient/faster, so why seek further reward? Why push players into a set style of grouping, racing against a ticking time clock measurement? 

     

    XP Chains really mess with the flow of grouping/how a camp works. Instead of fighting hard and breaking in a camp you simply don't break in a camp at all as now you need to wait until a good number of spawns have repoped lest you miss that precious XP chain bonus. Areas with the highest mob density become king. 

    Because it rewards teamwork, skill, coordination, etc, etc, etc, etc.  The same way your health bar and mana bars are used as a measurement to base your decisions off of.  The same way that debuffs need to be considered.  The same way that enemy NPC's health, mana, buffs, debuffs need to be considered.  It was another factor to consider that allowed for more tactical gameplay.  It reinforced the value of having a mana battery, of utilizing a good puller, establishing a strong foothold, or pushing your limits (for every class).  Rather than mindlessly grinding the same content for hours on end (monotonous), you had small windows of opportunity where you could achieve a mini victory(engaging).  It's the same concept as "actively" curing, blocking, dodging, interrupting, stunning, etc.  It rewards awareness and group cohesion.  It allowed good players to stand out and earn a more meaningful reputation.  Areas with high mob density sounds like a risk vs reward factor that I would very much appreciate being a consideration.  You mention a period of waiting.  Yes, there is "some" downtime built into the feature ... but it's tactical.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 31, 2018 12:31 PM PST
    • 690 posts
    January 31, 2018 12:38 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    It's still a strawman.


    straw man
    ˌstrô ˈman/
    noun
    noun: strawman
    1.
    an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument. At most, you are simply providing related examples.

    He's using capital letters as a prompt that tells people to perform a function that will give them a combat advantage over what they are fighting.  XP Chains do not work like that.  If anything, it would be more similar to a debuff showing up on your screen that you then have the option to cure, based on the situation.  You would have a small timer appear on your screen that indicated how much time you had left to kill another even con or higher NPC to qualify for the next link in the chain.  It wasn't a prompt that told you what to do.  It was information that you would analyze and then factor into your overall decision making process based on where you were, what was around you, the resources of your group, etc.  Downtime was quite common when I played FFXI.  As Lodge pointed out, a good group could consistently execute chains of around 3-4 whereas a great group could execute chains of around 5-7 before needing to regen.

    Under the impression that skill chains and kill chains are ultimately the same, there is no longer any intentional misrepresentation, nor need to avoid an opponent's real argument. At most, skill chaining becomes a related example to further support the argument.

    You claim that xp chains don't tell you what to do. To me, XP chaining gives you a number you want to increase in order to be most efficient. Thus, it tells you what to do (kill as much as you can before taking a break).

    To put it another way: In a chaining system, "great groups" tend to be the ones who get great chains, because they get the best...whatever the reward for chaining is. Thus in order to be a great group, you MUST chain well.

    Even if xp chaining had no reward whatseover, it would then be a pointless number on your screen which potentially draws your attention away from the world around you (and probably be called "kill chains" instead). I'd bet some would even mistake it as the only true show of skill, and then push their groups to get big chains. 

    As a side note, I feel that any game which allows a good group to chain 7 "challenging" mobs together, without breaks or waiting for nearby mobs to pop, may rely too much on the artifical chaining system, and not enough on their own ability to make challenging, rewarding fights. It's not guaranteed that this is the case but...the message it sends is just one I don't like.

    _______________________________________________________________________

    Downtime isn't the only possible issue in a kill chaining situation.  You may focus on killing the mob quickly rather than efficiently. You may decide to kill a mob your group doesnt want to kill, for faction reasons or otherwise. You may pass up a mob or entire area because you feel it would be innefficient for your xp chains. You may pass up giving a guildie an immediate reply to his question because you are mid-chain, rather than simply in the middle of a tough individual battle. You may even choose to park your group in a spot to maximize xp chains, rather than moving forward in the dungeon to other locations.

    Sure; groups might choose to do any of these things anyways, and they arent necessarily bad things to do. But I don't like having an unneeded mechanic to push my decision one way or the other. A truly good game should push my decisions enough with actual gameplay mechanics like mob abilities/stats, and environment.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at January 31, 2018 12:59 PM PST
    • 49 posts
    January 31, 2018 12:47 PM PST

    im confused beaver u said xp chains reward you for doing something in a row but tell me an mmo where you didnt kill a bunch of mobs in a row to level up?

    • 690 posts
    January 31, 2018 12:55 PM PST

    Lodgedogg said:

    im confused beaver u said xp chains reward you for doing something in a row but tell me an mmo where you didnt kill a bunch of mobs in a row to level up?

    Chains reward you for doing things a certain way in a row. My bad on bad wording there.

    Yes every game makes you kill lots of stuff. But that does not mean it necessarily means you must kill mobs at least  two minutes apart from each other. With no chains, you don't have any artificial system to determine which mobs around you you kill when, and which you do not.

     


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at January 31, 2018 12:56 PM PST
    • 3237 posts
    January 31, 2018 1:06 PM PST

    Sigh.  Skill Chains and XP Chains are not the same thing.  Using your logic, "curing" would also be the same thing and further support the argument.  Your ability to perform functions goes up when you have an impairment cured.  You see a debuff on your screen that informs you that you have a debuff that can be cured.  Healing would also be the same thing.  Your ability to stay alive goes up when you receive consistent healing.  By seeing your HP go down, by your own logic, you admit that the game is telling you to seek out a heal, right?  Again, using your own logic, groups might choose to do these things anyway.  Maybe debuff impairments showing up on screen are also an unneeded mechanic as they push you to make a decision one way or another?  Maybe XP bars are also an unneeded mechanic since groups will naturally try to advance their characters and seeing an XP bar to remind them of progress could be misconstrued as a tool that is telling them what to do?

    You mention how in order to be in a great group you MUST chain well.  Okay ... and?  In order to be in a great group, you must tank well, heal well, pull well, and DPS/CC well too, right?  I don't see why people are up in arms to have another factor to consider.  It enhances gameplay by giving players another thing to think about.  From what I have heard about EQ, people could dual box a main tank and main healer while falling asleep watching a soap opera.  I'm sorry, but I actually enjoy mechanics that require reaction, adaptation, and tough decisions.  I enjoy having "yet another" thing to consider while I play.  It keeps me engaged.  It keeps me immersed.  It allows me to continue having fun and constantly enjoy the sensation of risk vs reward in situations that would otherwise be boring and monotonous.  By the way ... I said good groups could consistently chain 3-4 "challenging mobs."  Only the great groups could chain 5-7.  From what I have heard, some solo players could kite around entire armies of mobs in EQ.  Please elaborate on how challenging and rewarding the fights were in the game that you would like to see combat modeled after.

    Better yet, don't.  You will never appreciate the value of XP Chains.  It is a lost cause, as far as you are concerned.  That's fine.  You have made it clear that you are willing to go out of your way to elaborate on how bad this feature would be for Pantheon yet you don't even have actual experience using it.  My examples of what could be done in EQ are just as bad since I didn't get to experience them first-hand.  Does that make them right or wrong?  I probably shouldn't have brought them up but I will leave you with this:  https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/7u7lxj/what_is_going_to_make_this_games_combat_unique/

    There is a recent thread on Reddit where another former FFXI player attests to how amazing the combat system was in FFXI.  There was something magical about it.  This isn't the first post like this and it definitely won't be the last.  The FFXI fanbase is pretty massive and I think Pantheon could be a great home for all of it.  That said, I think XP chains at least being entertained as an option would be a major draw to players from that franchise.  It would give them something to relate to.  It would bring back the epic gameplay that many of us miss.  I'm not saying that they have to be in the game but I would like to know why they have been ruled out or if they were even actually considered in the first place.  What tenet do they violate?  What devs on the VR team actually played FFXI, and what are their thoughts on the feature?  I can think of a 100 reasons why they belong in a game like Pantheon and if the best features from prior MMO's are truly being considered then I can't for the life of me figure out why they don't belong in this game.  I feel like if corpse runs were removed from the equation for Pantheon some sort of explanation would be given.  If XP chains have actually been considered, and officially ruled out, I would very much appreciate having some insight on how/why that decision was made.  If that's too much to ask for, so be it ... but it's worth a shot.  I know there are a lot of people who would have a vested interest in a topic like this.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 31, 2018 1:26 PM PST
    • 690 posts
    January 31, 2018 1:28 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    Sigh.  Skill Chains and XP Chains are not the same thing.  Using your logic, "curing" would also be the same thing and further support the argument.  Your ability to perform functions goes up when you have an impairment cured.  You see a debuff on your screen that informs you that you have a debuff that can be cured.  Healing would also be the same thing.  Your ability to stay alive goes up when you receive consistent healing.  By seeing your HP go down, by your own logic, you admit that the game is telling you to seek out a heal, right?  Again, using your own logic, groups might choose to do these things anyway.  Maybe debuff impairments showing up on screen are also an unneeded mechanic as they push you to make a decision one way or another?  Maybe XP bars are also an unneeded mechanic since groups will naturally try to advance their characters and seeing an XP bar to remind them of progress could be misconstrued as a tool that is telling them what to do?

    You mention how in order to be in a great group you MUST chain well.  Okay ... and?  In order to be in a great group, you must tank well, heal well, pull well, and DPS/CC well too, right?  I don't see why people are up in arms to have another factor to consider.  It enhances gameplay by giving players another thing to think about.  From what I have heard about EQ, people could dual box a main tank and main healer while falling asleep watching a soap opera.  I'm sorry, but I actually enjoy mechanics that require reaction, adaptation, and tough decisions.  I enjoy having "yet another" thing to consider while I play.  It keeps me engaged.  It keeps me immersed.  It allows me to continue having fun and constantly enjoy the sensation of risk vs reward in situations that would otherwise be boring and monotonous.  By the way ... I said good groups could consistently chain 3-4 "challenging mobs."  Only the great groups could chain 5-7.  From what I have heard, some solo players could kite around entire armies of mobs in EQ.  Please elaborate on how challenging and rewarding the fights were in the game that you would like to see combat modeled after.

    Healing is something that actually happens in the game, representing your character, who was recently damaged in an actual fight, having that damage removed by a spell. Debuffs are things that show an actual effect on your character which you must deal with. The XP bar is a direct representation of your character's power, and further gain of experience to gain more power.

    The XP chain is a show of an artificial idea that quickly killing a bunch of mobs in a row is somehow rewarding to your character. Why would killing two spiders with short breaks inbetween be that much different than killing two spiders one after the other? Why would my character want to pass up on a particularly tough enemy to instead kill one with lower hp, ONLY because he recently killed something else? Why would my character ever risk such things as faction or his life to fight multiple enemies in a row, when taking a break is not only safer but more realistic for acrual of skill and muscle?

    Hence, healing, xp, and debuffs are actual game mechanics. The XP chain is an artificial mechanic designed to either shortcut or benefit actual game mechanics, like difficult enemies.

    Furthermore, I feel that though xp chaining CAN benefit actual game mechanics, pouring actual time into the base game mechanics, as VR seems to be doing, is a far better option. It feels much more real, and base mechanics, like character power vs enemy mob power, run much less chance of hurting the game tenets than chaining does.

    To be blunt, I don't care how difficult or not difficult eq is, I care about how difficult Pantheon will be, and can be if VR takes the time to make it that way. 

    _______________________

     

    oneADseven said:

     

    Better yet, don't.  You will never appreciate the value of XP Chains.  It is a lost cause, as far as you are concerned.  That's fine.  You have made it clear that you are willing to go out of your way to elaborate on how bad this feature would be for Pantheon yet you don't even have actual experience using it.  My examples of what could be done in EQ are just as bad since I didn't get to experience them first-hand.  Does that make them right or wrong?  I probably shouldn't have brought them up but I will leave you with this:  https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/7u7lxj/what_is_going_to_make_this_games_combat_unique/

     

    There is a recent thread on Reddit where another former FFXI player attests to how amazing the combat system was in FFXI.  There was something magical about it.  This isn't the first post like this and it definitely won't be the last.  The FFXI fanbase is pretty massive and I think Pantheon could be a great home for all of it.  That said, I think XP chains at least being entertained as an option would be a major draw to players from that franchise.  It would give them something to relate to.  It would bring back the epic gameplay that many of us miss.  I'm not saying that they have to be in the game but I would like to know why they have been ruled out or if they were even actually considered in the first place.  What tenet do they violate?  What devs on the VR team actually played FFXI, and what are their thoughts on the feature?  I can think of a 100 reasons why they belong in a game like Pantheon and if the best features from prior MMO's are truly being considered then I can't for the life of me figure out why they don't belong in this game.  I feel like if corpse runs were removed from the equation for Pantheon some sort of explanation would be given.  If XP chains have actually been considered, and officially ruled out, I would very much appreciate having some insight on how/why that decision was made.  If that's too much to ask for, so be it ... but it's worth a shot.  I know there are a lot of people who would have a vested interest in a topic like this.

     

    First off,

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    I should point out that the majority of people who played for a long time on ff11 probably enjoyed it's features. If you assume that the only people with experience regarding xp chains are those who really got into a game with xp chains, then of course your sample size will mainly include people who enjoy it.

    I should also point out that experiencing a thing is NOT necessary to understand it quite well. There are miraculously small differences between empathy and sympathy, look it up sometime if you like.

    Finally, I did play ff11. I quit once I hit a high enough level to group because I didn't consider it fun enough to merit monthly payments. 


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at January 31, 2018 1:41 PM PST
    • 3237 posts
    January 31, 2018 1:38 PM PST

    "The XP bar is a direct representation of your character's power, and further gain of experience to gain more power."  Yeah, that's kind of how the XP Chain indicator works as well.  Weird how one is an actual game mechanic while the other is artificial.  It's artificial to you.  To me, it's actual.  As far as 'why this, that, and the other' ... it's called tactical gameplay.  I would argue that it makes sense that players can gain "more experience" by doing things in rapid succession.  If you are working on your free throws ... what feels more like a learning experience?  Taking 100 straight shots as soon as you get the ball so that you can get in a groove, or taking short breaks in between each one?  You make it out like XP Chains were literally the law of the land ... that people would be willing to risk their faction or their life at every possible opportunity if it meant squeezing out one more link in the chain.  The point is ... it's a factor to consider.  There is no rule that states that you always do anything.  That's what made it so rewarding.  It was tactical.  You had to consider your options constantly ... the game did not tell you what to do.  It was up to you, the player, to analyze the risk vs reward for your group and collectively make a decision when possible.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 31, 2018 1:40 PM PST
    • 690 posts
    January 31, 2018 1:48 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    "The XP bar is a direct representation of your character's power, and further gain of experience to gain more power."  Yeah, that's kind of how the XP Chain indicator works as well.  Weird how one is an actual game mechanic while the other is artificial.  It's artificial to you.  To me, it's actual.  As far as 'why this, that, and the other' ... it's called tactical gameplay.  I would argue that it makes sense that players can gain "more experience" by doing things in rapid succession.  If you are working on your free throws ... what feels more like a learning experience?  Taking 100 straight shots as soon as you get the ball so that you can get in a groove, or taking short breaks in between each one?  You make it out like XP Chains were literally the law of the land ... that people would be willing to risk their faction or their life at every possible opportunity if it meant squeezing out one more link in the chain.  The point is ... it's a factor to consider.  There is no rule that states that you always do anything.  That's what made it so rewarding.  It was tactical.  You had to consider your options constantly ... the game did not tell you what to do.  It was up to you, the player, to analyze the risk vs reward for your group and collectively make a decision when possible.

    I feel that your example is not correct

    An XP chain is more like taking 700 straight shots without taking time to share notes with peers, get drinks, or rest your muscles. Tearing them to dangerous levels, as well as tiring your mind beyond a point where it can efficiently learn.

    100 straight shots is more like one single, challenging fight. I'm not opting for 3 second battles, I'm opting for immersive and challenging individual battles. 

    In addition, the rest time after straining yourself that hard would make you rest longer. If you took the time to rest inbetween rounds once you have grown tired, then you would theoretically get it all done in the same amount of time anyways. It makes no sense to me that my character would absolutely need to put off any and all resting to the last second in order to gain the most experience.

     

    And yes you are correct, I do feel that if chaining is available, it will become necessary. When there is a thing that makes you level faster, or look more skilled, players will do it and expect it of other players. 

    A good example of this is gear scores. There are many things in many games you can do while undergeared just fine. But it is not efficient to field people with less than par gear, so more groups than not require you to reach their standard. 

    Sure you could find the occasional group who doesn't care, but being innefficient will NOT ever be the norm in any progression based game. 


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at January 31, 2018 2:00 PM PST
    • 3237 posts
    January 31, 2018 2:07 PM PST

    An XP Chain is like taking 7000 straight shots?  Really?  This was based on realism, according to you.  An XP Chain of 6-7 kills would usually take less than 15 minutes so the 100 shot example I gave would be more accurate, if we're still aiming for realism which is what I thought your original point was based around.  For the record, there were no "3 second battles" in FFXI.  The first rule of XP chains is that only even con or higher mobs qualify for the chain.  As far as inefficiency never being the norm in any progression based game goes, I wouldn't expect otherwise from a hardcore MMO which is what Pantheon has been dubbed to be.  The more comments you make, the more justified I feel in my thought process.  You can reach as far as you want.  Like I said, it's a lost cause, I don't care anymore.  I agree to disagree with you.  You can think XP chains are bad, fake, immersion breaking, whatever.  It's fine.  Thank you for sharing.

    • 690 posts
    January 31, 2018 2:11 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    An XP Chain is like taking 7000 straight shots?  Really?  This was based on realism, according to you.  An XP Chain of 6-7 kills would usually take less than 15 minutes so the 100 shot example I gave would be more accurate, if we're still aiming for realism which is what I thought your original point was based around.  For the record, there were no "3 second battles" in FFXI.  The first rule of XP chains is that only even con or higher mobs qualify for the chain.  As far as inefficiency never being the norm in any progression based game goes, I wouldn't expect otherwise from a hardcore MMO which is what Pantheon has been dubbed to be.  The more comments you make, the more justified I feel in my thought process.  You can reach as far as you want.  Like I said, it's a lost cause, I don't care anymore.  I agree to disagree with you.  You can think XP chains are bad, fake, immersion breaking, whatever.  It's fine.  Thank you for sharing.

    7000 was a typo, its more like 700

    I say it's so high because fighting and killing things is theoretically harder than shooting goals.

     ___

    It really is true that short breaks are quite efficient realistically though.

    I don't think a system should be put in place to push people towards doing all their resting at once vs just resting a little bit inbetween fights, unless the fighting is boring enough that we need to risk adding new mechanics.

     ____

    I don't mind being forced to be efficient, I just don't want to do it for something as artificial and potentially gamebreaking as XP chains.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at January 31, 2018 2:17 PM PST
    • 258 posts
    January 31, 2018 3:01 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    I think the real argument is that skilled players/groups are already rewarded with more XP by virtue of being more efficient/faster, so why seek further reward? Why push players into a set style of grouping, racing against a ticking time clock measurement? 

     

    XP Chains really mess with the flow of grouping/how a camp works. Instead of fighting hard and breaking in a camp you simply don't break in a camp at all as now you need to wait until a good number of spawns have repoped lest you miss that precious XP chain bonus. Areas with the highest mob density become king. 



    I never played a game that had XP chain bonuses, so I'm certainly on the outside looking in on this one... But I tend to not enjoy mechanics that force (or heavily influence) me to play a particular way. And, of course, every group will want to streamline XP, so there's really no choice there. XP chain bonuses not only become a huge part of game play, but also a huge part simply in determining where to go to XP (another thing creating camp bottlenecks). I'm also a big fan of immersion, so I really don't like any sort of pop-ups while fighting. Don't know how it worked in FFXI or whatever, but if notifications were popping up all the time to let you know how far into a chain you are or what not... I would absolutely hate that.

    Overall, I'm not sure I would enjoy XP chain bonuses. Besides, I want leveling to be slow, as I plan to play the game for a very long time, so the slower the XP is for everyone the happier I am lol. So, I guess that makes two things I really don't want to see (faster XPing, heavily influencing playstyle and camp choice), plus the question of annoying pop-ups.

    Just my 2c

    • 3237 posts
    January 31, 2018 3:54 PM PST

    Just so you know Kayn, XP chains did not make XP'ing faster.  That point has been refuted probably a dozen times on the earlier pages of this thread.  The amount of time it takes to get to level cap is relative ... the design team could literally design it to be as fast or slow as they want, with or without XP chains.  Implementing XP Chains basically rewards good behavior.  One thing I have seen a lot of over the years is players saying that they have plenty of "skill" but not enough "time"  --  XP chains are a good thing for those kind of players.  Either way, let's use this hypothetical.

    XP Chains do not exist, and the dev team designs a leveling curve that should take, on average, 1,000 hours to get to cap.

    XP Chains do exist, and the dev team designs a leveling curve that should take, on average, 1,000 hours to get to cap for those who consistently utilize XP chains, or 1,200-1,300 hours for those who do not.

    It doesn't speed leveling up in a vacuum.  It adds fun and flavor to the grind because it gives you something to think about every time you pull a mob.  A lot of people use the argument that they don't want to play a game that heavily influences them to play a certain way.  Okay, so what about a really dangerous world that heavily influences you to play carfeul?  How about a really social world that heavily influences you to go out and make friends?  For some reason I think players seem to enjoy mechanics (or the lack of) that do indeed influence certain outcomes.  XP chains influenced strategy, teamwork, and coordination.  They also influenced socialization, and for players to help each other.  I saw a comment on the reddit thread that players wouldn't tolerate people who didn't know how to chain in their groups.  I found the opposite to be true.

    The reason why is because the participation of every member in the group (especially from a teamwork perspective) directly influenced the overall productivity moreso than you see in your average MMO.  Getting to a camp and setting up a group took time.  Players had a vested interest in helping others.  I had veteran Japanese players teaching me how to execute chains (using a generic language translator tool) when I was a total newb in the single digit level range and with crap gear and no sub-class.  If people are jerks, judgmental, or unhelpful ... that's a player problem, not a game problem.  XP Chains influenced players to help each other out, make lasting friendships ... and communicate.  All of these things have been identified as important for Pantheon and that's why I think the feature would be a potentially good fit.  Players had more of an incentive to properly strategize their session, donate food/drink, armor, weapons, or even explain some of the more intricate tricks to new players that only veteran players would know.

    As far as the feature being immersion breaking, it definitely wasn't a huge flashing alert that popped up on your screen with capital letters.  You saw a small timer window.  It doesn't have to be any more intrusive than a clock that tells you the time of day.  If someone wanted to, you could even turn it into a small hour glass icon where sand slowly starts fading away.  I will admit that the XP Chain feature did create a sense of urgency, but it didn't trump the fear of danger.  It just gave you another element to think about.  Pulling was more satisfying.  Managing resources felt more rewarding if you managed to get to a chain of 5 after several chains of 4.  At the end of the day, it was a tool that improved the efficiency of the average player.  I don't see that as a bad thing.  If we want a challenging game, there is nothing wrong with implementing a feature that allows a level of risk vs reward that would otherwise not be present.  That's really all the feature was ... an ever present risk vs reward mechanism that encouraged emergent gameplay tactics and next level teamwork.

    Rather than looking at this feature as something that contributes to bottlenecks, why not consider another angle?  When a feature like this exists, players could actually make better use of a less-than-ideal camp by properly strategizing their pulls.  From what I remember in playing, there were definitely certain camps that were better than others(this will be true with or without the feature), but even moving around as a group would still fetch you a pretty good amount of XP if you were pulling off chains.  Rather than groups just gobbling up every possible mob they could find and contributing to "more competition" they would be a little bit more selective with what they pulled, and when they pulled.  They would generally leave the weaker mobs in an area to a lower level group because they wouldn't help with their chain.  I could go on and on.  The feature was amazing.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 31, 2018 4:19 PM PST