oneADseven said:I often see remarks on this forum like "I don't think something like that is needed in Pantheon." Are necromancers "needed" in Pantheon? Is progeny "needed?" It isn't a matter of whether something is "needed" or not ... and unless an idea directly contradicts the established game tenets, these opinions on what is or is not needed are irrelevant to me. It's a matter of flavor. It's a matter of whether or not a feature would help reinforce the tenets that are the foundation that the game has been built on. There are several tenets that would suggest that XP chains could make sense and none that say it would not.
There are some here who will automatically reject anything that doesn't increase the amount of tedium in the game. That became apparent to me a long time ago. Just keep posting your ideas. Whether I agree with you or not it's still fun to think on them, and you never know when a particular idea will spawn a different idea in a dev's head. It happens for me at work all the time.
Zorkon said:It would seem if your in a good enough group to chain pull nonstop, that would be the bonus itself. Also I thought they were looking for ways to slow things down not speed them up.
Just wanted to have my voice heard then I will leave you all back to your debating. I'm not in favor of any type of Bonus Experience, be it this or rest exp or "special" weekends, whatever it might be.
The concepts of "slow down" and "speed up" do not exist within a vacuum. Everything is relative. You can have bonus XP from chain pulls while still having an overall very slow rate of XP.
Following this logic, XP should just be based on time played, because pulling/killing faster is essentially bonus XP.
Bonus XP doesn't mean hitting level 50 within a weekend, it just means that relative to your base rate XP, there is an incentive to refine your playing ability to optimize your XP gain. Even without bonus XP, optimal group configurations, grind spots, killing methods, etc. will emerge through gameplay that will lead to a likely much higher XP rate than what the devs envision. If it gets nerfed, so be it. If it gets left alone, so be it.
However, can it really be argued that offering deeper ways for people to optimize their gameplay is a bad thing? I'd really love to see that argument.
Adding XP chains wouldn't necessarily "speed anything up." If there is an amount of hours that has been decided upon as fair for the grind to max level, adding XP chains to the mix doesen't need to reduce that number. It just adds a variable to the overall equation. Adding XP chains could actually slow down the overall rate of XP as most players probably wouldn't be able to pull them off on a consistent basis. So if you go in with the expectation that performing XP chains consistently is a part of the estimated "x amount of hours grinding until max level" number, in theory, it would probably slow down leveling considerably as only skilled and well balanced groups would be able to use them to maximum effect. This system wasn't designed to speed up leveling ... it's designed to reward skill, experience, and a well balanced group composition.
Searril said:There are some here who will automatically reject anything that doesn't increase the amount of tedium in the game. That became apparent to me a long time ago. Just keep posting your ideas. Whether I agree with you or not it's still fun to think on them, and you never know when a particular idea will spawn a different idea in a dev's head. It happens for me at work all the time.
Another way to put this is, "There are some here that don't see how making the experience of the game pass by more quickly makes the game better, or contributes to its longevity, and any system that is predominantly meant to do so is automatically suspect."
Searril said:oneADseven said:I often see remarks on this forum like "I don't think something like that is needed in Pantheon." Are necromancers "needed" in Pantheon? Is progeny "needed?" It isn't a matter of whether something is "needed" or not ... and unless an idea directly contradicts the established game tenets, these opinions on what is or is not needed are irrelevant to me. It's a matter of flavor. It's a matter of whether or not a feature would help reinforce the tenets that are the foundation that the game has been built on. There are several tenets that would suggest that XP chains could make sense and none that say it would not.
There are some here who will automatically reject anything that doesn't increase the amount of tedium in the game. That became apparent to me a long time ago. Just keep posting your ideas. Whether I agree with you or not it's still fun to think on them, and you never know when a particular idea will spawn a different idea in a dev's head. It happens for me at work all the time.
That "some" number has grown to about 6-7 people who have literally rejected every single idea I have ever shared on this forum. The ironic part is that I never see them posting their own ideas to be critiqued. This buzzkill mentality is an absolute shame and I'm surprised that the more creative and open-minded portion of our community hasn't stepped in to reclaim the reigns around here. The Debbie-Downer stuff rears it's head on just about any creative thread you'll ever see ... it's called the crab mentality.
Here it is in a nutshell according to Wikipedia:
Crab mentality, sometimes referred to as crabs in the bucket (also barrel, basket or pot), is a way of thinking best described by the phrase, "if I can't have it, neither can you."[1] The metaphor refers to a bucket of crabs. Individually, the crabs in the story could easily escape from the bucket, but instead they are described as grabbing at each other in a useless "king of the hill" competition which prevents any from escaping and ensures their collective demise.[2][3][4][5] The analogy in human behavior is claimed to be that members of a group will attempt to negate or diminish the importance of any member who achieves success beyond the others, out of envy, spite, conspiracy, or competitive feelings, to halt their progress.
Some people literally just go out of their way to enforce the "No idea will ever be good enough!" mindset. Tsk tsk.
First off I have to say that this thread will probably get closed. I could be mistaken but I think this topic might have been brought up in the past (could have been old forums though?) I honestly cant remember what VRs stance on this is though.
Also I just want to make it very clear that while I was a huge fan of FFXI (about 10 years), I dont even care so much about the topic so much as the responses.
@Zewtastic
Im sorry if it came out sarcastic. I love FFXI and dont like to see people who know nothing about it making condescending comments about it. Like the cute little WoW comment you made. Which again is not accurate. FFXI had more in common with EQ than WoW. So that comment was just about as offensive as you possibly could have been. I mean Im here arent I? Obviously I dont want WoW. And as oneADseven pointed out, just getting an xp bonus for existing in a group sounds less challenging.
@Dorotea
Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for misunderstanding what you meant.
@OneADseven
You have done a great job of explaining it and showing how good it can be. Very good post!
@Sunmistress
Thank you for your input. The only person in the entire thread that seems to be giving neutral answers and feedback
@Everyone
Im withdrawing from this thread as I think OneADseven has said everything that I would have regarding the topic. Also, as I said before, if we are going to justify things based on whether something is needed or no, then we could come up with reasons to justify the removal of just about anything from the game. Kicking Snakes anyone? I mean that sounds like a fun bit of nostalgia that as a FFXI player I will never understand. But I dont feel the need to crap on it everytime I see it pop up in a thread.
Off topic:
I really like this game and cant wait for it. I love most of the community and think in most aspects you guys are great. A little sarcasm or heated debate is fine. But one thing I just dont understand is the constant and consistant (since Kickstater days) attitudes of some memebers of the community that prove very caustic and dismissive of anything not in their experience. Ive seen very often in threads where people will say things "Pantheon doesnt need this" or similar comments attempting to de-ligitimize something seemigly with "logic". But in most cases it just ends up being someones opinions or expectations based on what this game did or didnt do. And in other cases jumping to conclusions (as Brad warned against) based on a bad implementation or incorrect/skewed knowlegde.
So as a non-EQ player to EQ players (thats who is mostly here). Try to be a bit more open minded about other members experiences. Because as of right now (and for a long time now) some people (not most) have been extremely unwelcoming to outsiders. And that can be a huge turn off to existing members that didnt play EQ as well as potential new members. Be respectful, not dismissive and condescending. Afterall, this game isnt going to be EQ nor FFXI or any other game other than Pantheon.
Lastly I think its perfectly fine to just say you dont like something. Just because you dont like the way it looks, smells, feels, etc. In fact I would rather people do that than try to dismiss something based on false logic of "X is not needed". Because that is just insulting honestly.
Feyshtey said:Searril said:There are some here who will automatically reject anything that doesn't increase the amount of tedium in the game. That became apparent to me a long time ago. Just keep posting your ideas. Whether I agree with you or not it's still fun to think on them, and you never know when a particular idea will spawn a different idea in a dev's head. It happens for me at work all the time.
Another way to put this is, "There are some here that don't see how making the experience of the game pass by more quickly makes the game better, or contributes to its longevity, and any system that is predominantly meant to do so is automatically suspect."
And again, the system doesen't necessarily make the game pass by more quickly. That's totally subjective to the grand total of hours that ends up being the goal. XP chains don't need to speed anything up. They can slow it down considerably if you start thinking outside the box instead of being consumed by a preconceived notion that everything is suspect or doomed for failure.
Never having experienced the type of skill chain you are referring to, I can only speculate that if they provided a significant bonus the folks who didn't participate in that play style would be ostrecized.
I did enjoy the "combo" system employed by EQ2. The issue with it was unless you were doing your solo chains while soloing it was almost imperceptable in the benefit it gave. Also, making healers heal or buff when they dont need to is never a good idea.
Maximis said:Never having experienced the type of skill chain you are referring to, I can only speculate that if they provided a significant bonus the folks who didn't participate in that play style would be ostrecized.
I did enjoy the "combo" system employed by EQ2. The issue with it was unless you were doing your solo chains while soloing it was almost imperceptable in the benefit it gave. Also, making healers heal or buff when they dont need to is never a good idea.
Not referring to skill chains.
You kill another enemy within n seconds after another and you gain bonus experience as a result. This bonus generally grows in size the more mobs you kill consecutively, although it obviously has to have a hard cap. It's simply an incentive to play more optimally. A group farming named will probably not care as much.
A group who levels slowly and plays far from optimally wouldn't be harmed by this, the same way that bad players simply aren't invited to top tier raiding guilds. This would probably benefit tight knit groups more than pugs, but even solid pugs could take advantage of the system if you aren't hard carrying a bunch of players, which you probably shouldn't be doing anyway.
For the record, XP chains are completely different than skill chains Maximis. And yes, part of the point of having them is to promote effective group compositions, skilled pulling rotations, overall teamwork and group synergy. If players don't participate or contribute to those very important aspects of what was designed as an engaging group mechanic, then no, they would not benefit from the system. One important thing to realize though is that when skill is required for optimal performance, players will catch onto that and actively attempt to improve their game. Not everybody will shun players for not being skilled ... I would argue that there are plenty of folks in this community who would go out of their way to help others improve their performance. XP chains would definitely go a long way toward setting the bar higher ... and the higher the bar, the more inclined everybody will be to step up their game. I think that's a good thing and something I definitely miss from my days of playing FFXI.
oneADseven said:
Archaen said:Never was a fan of the "chaining" system for FF.
First off, we don't need Yet-Another-System that has no real impact on the game, and is more detrimental than helpful. I'd rather the focus of my gaming be on the world rather than if I'm adhering to some arbitrary system.
Second, a system like this only speeds up the levelling for good players. They don't need it. The game doesn't need it. Let's not spend time on it.
Doesen't have an impact on the game? Did you not just read how it directly reinforces good teamwork behavior and skilled pulling? Is that not something that should be promoted? Who cares if something "speeds up leveling for good players." Wouldn't that be a good thing for good players who don't have a lot of time which is something we see players asking for, ALL the time? It would be a system that rewards SKILL, not time. But yeah ... we don't need anything like that ... please no ... let's not waste time entertaining an idea that rewards skilled players ... that's blasphemy! The premature dismissal of ideas based on personal agendas (or vendettas in some cases) is something running absolutely rampant on this forum. It's laughable indeed.
I kind of agree with Archaen. Obviously it has an impact on the game. But you don't need an xp bonus thing to promote good teamwork and skilled pulling because it's common sense that chain pulling faster rewards the group with faster xp which is what I think he was talking about.
I prefer Pantheon to behave as realistically as possible hence the title 'virtual world' that they are aiming for. Of course it can't function exaclty like the real world because for 1) that would probably be boring and 2) there are some things that just don't fit/work when crossing over from real-world mechanics to video game (MMO) mechanics. But things like this feel gimmicky to me and aren't really needed. I just want a world to jump into that doesn't hold me by the hand. A world where everything within the game happens organically.
oneADseven said:And again, the system doesen't necessarily make the game pass by more quickly. That's totally subjective to the grand total of hours that ends up being the goal. XP chains don't need to speed anything up. They can slow it down considerably if you start thinking outside the box instead of being consumed by a preconceived notion that everything is suspect or doomed for failure.
So it's an XP bonus that doesn't make you level faster?
NoobieDoo said:oneADseven said:
Archaen said:Never was a fan of the "chaining" system for FF.
First off, we don't need Yet-Another-System that has no real impact on the game, and is more detrimental than helpful. I'd rather the focus of my gaming be on the world rather than if I'm adhering to some arbitrary system.
Second, a system like this only speeds up the levelling for good players. They don't need it. The game doesn't need it. Let's not spend time on it.
Doesen't have an impact on the game? Did you not just read how it directly reinforces good teamwork behavior and skilled pulling? Is that not something that should be promoted? Who cares if something "speeds up leveling for good players." Wouldn't that be a good thing for good players who don't have a lot of time which is something we see players asking for, ALL the time? It would be a system that rewards SKILL, not time. But yeah ... we don't need anything like that ... please no ... let's not waste time entertaining an idea that rewards skilled players ... that's blasphemy! The premature dismissal of ideas based on personal agendas (or vendettas in some cases) is something running absolutely rampant on this forum. It's laughable indeed.
I kind of agree with Archaen. Obviously it has an impact on the game. But you don't need an xp bonus thing to promote good teamwork and skilled pulling because it's common sense that chain pulling faster rewards the group with faster xp which is what I think he was talking about.
I prefer Pantheon to behave as realistically as possible hence the title 'virtual world' that they are aiming for. Of course it can't function exaclty like the real world because for 1) that would probably be boring and 2) there are some things that just don't fit/work when crossing over from real-world mechanics to video game (MMO) mechanics. But things like this feel gimmicky to me and aren't really needed. I just want a world to jump into that doesn't hold me by the hand. A world where everything within the game happens organically.
What's wrong with reinforcing, promoting, or even rewarding players who excel at displaying common sense?
Feyshtey said:oneADseven said:And again, the system doesen't necessarily make the game pass by more quickly. That's totally subjective to the grand total of hours that ends up being the goal. XP chains don't need to speed anything up. They can slow it down considerably if you start thinking outside the box instead of being consumed by a preconceived notion that everything is suspect or doomed for failure.
So it's an XP bonus that doesn't make you level faster?
Exactly. To clarify, let me illustrate a point. Let's say that VR determines that 1,000 hours is a fair amount of time to get to max level without XP chains having ever been considered. Now they are considered, but we're still looking at that 1,000 hour timeline. So the 1,000 hour timeline is still in effect but with the added variable that you need to execute a fair amount of XP chains to get there. If you play poorly and are not capable of pulling off these chains, that 1,000 hour timeline could grow to 1200 or 1300 hours. XP chains absolutely positively do NOT need to speed up the leveling process. If anything, they reward players for effective group compositions, skilled pulling, and teamwork ... points I've annunciated many times on this thread.
Searril said:Sunmistress said:Whether or not there is a group XP bonus some folks are absolutely going to discriminate against bad/slow players, it's almost inevitable with how the MMO gaming community is in 2017. Not sure this particular mechanic would make that any better or worse.Bad/slow players were rightly descriminated against back in 1999, too. That's a big reason in saying your reputation matters.
Reputation is about more than simply being a nice person. It also matters if you're a nice person who doesn't use excuses like "I need to catch my breath" after every pull to excuse your slowness (one of the most idiotically overused expressions in the history of MMOs.)
Lol do people honestly say I need to catch my breath.
And that's what I was getting at, people are going to find someway whether there's meters or xp chains or whatever to quantify and segregate the good from the bad.
I don't see anything wrong with that personally. It's how these games work.
My question would be...Why are we trying to rush through the game? Do we really want systems or items granting bonus XP? Isn't the point of this game to be enjoying the whole game and not rushing to the max XP level?
Personally I understand the worry about this system forcing out hybrid or support classes and favoring dps classes. But really that is more on the development team to design the game so that heavy dps class groups simply dont' work as well as groups with a combination of classes and roles. And I have faith they can do that.
If you really like the idea of some sort of chaining bonus what would you think of something like a loot drop % bonus?
Dreaclnought said:My question would be...Why are we trying to rush through the game? Do we really want systems or items granting bonus XP? Isn't the point of this game to be enjoying the whole game and not rushing to the max XP level?
The term "rush" never occurred until you mentioned it. How are we supposed to have a conversation about this when we're not even on the same page about what is being discussed?
oneADseven said:Feyshtey said:oneADseven said:And again, the system doesen't necessarily make the game pass by more quickly. That's totally subjective to the grand total of hours that ends up being the goal. XP chains don't need to speed anything up. They can slow it down considerably if you start thinking outside the box instead of being consumed by a preconceived notion that everything is suspect or doomed for failure.
So it's an XP bonus that doesn't make you level faster?
Exactly.
So what's the point? If it truly doesnt make you level faster its not an XP bonus. It's simply an atta-boy pat on the back, good job gold star?
oneADseven said:Feyshtey said:oneADseven said:And again, the system doesen't necessarily make the game pass by more quickly. That's totally subjective to the grand total of hours that ends up being the goal. XP chains don't need to speed anything up. They can slow it down considerably if you start thinking outside the box instead of being consumed by a preconceived notion that everything is suspect or doomed for failure.
So it's an XP bonus that doesn't make you level faster?
Exactly. To clarify, let me illustrate a point. Let's say that VR determines that 1,000 hours is a fair amount of time to get to max level without XP chains having ever been considered. Now they are considered, but we're still looking at that 1,000 hour timeline. So the 1,000 hour timeline is still in effect but with the added variable that you need to execute a fair amount of XP chains to get there. If you play poorly and are not capable of pulling off these chains, that 1,000 hour timeline could grow to 1200 or 1300 hours. XP chains absolutely positively do NOT need to speed up the leveling process. If anything, they reward players for effective group compositions, skilled pulling, and teamwork ... points I've annunciated many times on this thread.
What? if it takes 1300 hours to get max level while playing poorly, and using XP chain only takes 1000 hours, XP chain makes you level faster.
Dreaclnought said:My question would be...Why are we trying to rush through the game? Do we really want systems or items granting bonus XP? Isn't the point of this game to be enjoying the whole game and not rushing to the max XP level?
Personally I understand the worry about this system forcing out hybrid or support classes and favoring dps classes. But really that is more on the development team to design the game so that heavy dps class groups simply dont' work as well as groups with a combination of classes and roles. And I have faith they can do that.
If you really like the idea of some sort of chaining bonus what would you think of something like a loot drop % bonus?
It's funny you mention that about hybrid classes because what started this conversation was me talking about bards and redmages in FFXI and how integral they were for groups to pull off successive XP chains in FFXI. They were both support classes in that game and you would almost always want at least one in your group. This system reinforces the need for support classes ... it doesen't undermine them at all.
jpedrote said:oneADseven said:Feyshtey said:oneADseven said:And again, the system doesen't necessarily make the game pass by more quickly. That's totally subjective to the grand total of hours that ends up being the goal. XP chains don't need to speed anything up. They can slow it down considerably if you start thinking outside the box instead of being consumed by a preconceived notion that everything is suspect or doomed for failure.
So it's an XP bonus that doesn't make you level faster?
Exactly. To clarify, let me illustrate a point. Let's say that VR determines that 1,000 hours is a fair amount of time to get to max level without XP chains having ever been considered. Now they are considered, but we're still looking at that 1,000 hour timeline. So the 1,000 hour timeline is still in effect but with the added variable that you need to execute a fair amount of XP chains to get there. If you play poorly and are not capable of pulling off these chains, that 1,000 hour timeline could grow to 1200 or 1300 hours. XP chains absolutely positively do NOT need to speed up the leveling process. If anything, they reward players for effective group compositions, skilled pulling, and teamwork ... points I've annunciated many times on this thread.
What? if it takes 1300 hours to get max level while playing poorly, and using XP chain only takes 1000 hours, XP chain makes you level faster.
Read the part about 1,000 hours already being the agreed to baseline prior to XP chains ever being considered. They don't allow you to level "faster" -- they can be implemented in a way that allows you to level "on schedule" and if you aren't maximizing their effect, it would actually slow down the leveling process. So yes, skilled groups would level faster than un-skilled groups but what's wrong with that? It doesen't need to speed up the "baseline goal" ... whatever arbitrary number that ends up being.
Maximis said:Never having experienced the type of skill chain you are referring to, I can only speculate that if they provided a significant bonus the folks who didn't participate in that play style would be ostrecized.
I did enjoy the "combo" system employed by EQ2. The issue with it was unless you were doing your solo chains while soloing it was almost imperceptable in the benefit it gave. Also, making healers heal or buff when they dont need to is never a good idea.
These are the things I don't really care for. Was the EQ2 heroic combo system thing fun? I don't know, I suppose. But it was gimmicky and was hand-holding and I feel the same way about the FFXI xp bonus thing. The xp bonus thing holds players hands by way of directing them to get faster xp. And you get the same result either way with or without.
EQ2s combo thing I like for the sake of having combos. No reason why players in a group can't coordinate attacks to do more damage or to gain some sort of benefit. But not in the EQ2 way where the game engine itself holds you and your groupmates hands in order to pull off a combo. I prefer VGs method of group combos with its simpathetic system. At least iIrc that's what it was called. Basically players could place weaknesses upon mobs via abilities and spells and another groupmate could expose that weakness with their own set of skills and do extra damage. But there was no in-game UI that pops up for your group to complete the combo. You just have to pay attention to complete the combo and that's how I feel things should work in an MMO, especially one aiming to be a 'virtual world'. Was VGs group combo system perfect? Not at all but it was handled well and with a few improvements could have been really good.
oneADseven said:Dreaclnought said:My question would be...Why are we trying to rush through the game? Do we really want systems or items granting bonus XP? Isn't the point of this game to be enjoying the whole game and not rushing to the max XP level?
Personally I understand the worry about this system forcing out hybrid or support classes and favoring dps classes. But really that is more on the development team to design the game so that heavy dps class groups simply dont' work as well as groups with a combination of classes and roles. And I have faith they can do that.
If you really like the idea of some sort of chaining bonus what would you think of something like a loot drop % bonus?
It's funny you mention that about hybrid classes because what started this conversation was me talking about bards and redmages in FFXI and how integral they were for groups to pull off successive XP chains in FFXI. They were both support classes in that game and you would almost always want at least one in your group. This system reinforces the need for support classes ... it doesen't undermine them at all.
Exactly that's why I specifically said that I understand where the worry about that comes from but I have faith that the deveopers will design the game so that a balanced group was better. I actually was agreeing with you on that point...
oneADseven said:Read the part about 1,000 hours already being the agreed to baseline prior to XP chains ever being considered. They don't allow you to level "faster" -- they can be implemented in a way that allows you to level "on schedule" and if you aren't maximizing their effect, it would actually slow down the leveling process. So yes, skilled groups would level faster than un-skilled groups but what's wrong with that? It doesen't need to speed up the "baseline goal" ... whatever arbitrary number that ends up being.
I was just confused, because you said it was an XP bonus that didn't make you level faster.
There's nothing wrong with skilled groups leveling faster, but that happens with or without XP chain bonus.
edit: also leveling on schedule doens't invalidate the fact that XP bonus will make you level faster compared to other, but you also level faster if you pull faster and have a good group.