Feyshtey said:oneADseven said:Feyshtey said:oneADseven said:And again, the system doesen't necessarily make the game pass by more quickly. That's totally subjective to the grand total of hours that ends up being the goal. XP chains don't need to speed anything up. They can slow it down considerably if you start thinking outside the box instead of being consumed by a preconceived notion that everything is suspect or doomed for failure.
So it's an XP bonus that doesn't make you level faster?
Exactly.
So what's the point? If it truly doesnt make you level faster its not an XP bonus. It's simply an atta-boy pat on the back, good job gold star?
The point was, if you read my whole post, right at the end. Not a pat on the back but a loot drop increase. Or some other benefit to chaining pulls that wasn't an XP boost. I was trying to open another avenue to develop the idea of a chain killing bonus. Still a reward for those that like the idea, just not XP.
I was trying to be diplomatic and see what other options we could explore with the same idea. Please don't be so defensive. Just trying to promote the discussion a bit.
I am not against it per se, but i find myself agreeing with Zorkon to some degree... I am not a fan of bonus XP/ Arbitrary increases in any of their many guises, despite my growing lack of playing time and former penchant for powergaming.
I believe the benefits of having an extremely efficient group are quite evident without the need for an additional "mechanic", be it from being able to take & hold the most difficult camps to the increased rate of xp gain due to a constant stream of kills And i know from personal experience that people i enjoyed playing with became regular fixtures in my groups and were swiftly added to my friends lists, where they remained for many years..
I never experienced this system first hand, so maybe am not in the best position to comment, however as a long time player of UO and EQ I think what made the original mmorpgs so memorable was that they " just" created a world, and plonked you into it...there was no need for gear scores/ DPS meters ( although they existed)/ numerous mechanics and the like... that idiot that decided to AFK for three hours would just never get a group with me again..
I think my point is, if the guys and gals building this world find themselves with a load of extra time, then crack on...but personally, i would rather they prioritise building a memorable world full of memorable characters, and let us fill in the gaps...
Either way, i'll be grouping with decent people who play their classes competently but more importantly, that make me laugh and whose company i enjoy; i've had my fill of "speed runs" and groups that kick people because of some number that means very little as to how "good" that player is...hopefully with mobs that don't just wilt and die at the sight of a player and some real risk, people will get back to appreciating what really mattered.
Feyshtey said:oneADseven said:Feyshtey said:oneADseven said:And again, the system doesen't necessarily make the game pass by more quickly. That's totally subjective to the grand total of hours that ends up being the goal. XP chains don't need to speed anything up. They can slow it down considerably if you start thinking outside the box instead of being consumed by a preconceived notion that everything is suspect or doomed for failure.
So it's an XP bonus that doesn't make you level faster?
Exactly.
So what's the point? If it truly doesnt make you level faster its not an XP bonus. It's simply an atta-boy pat on the back, good job gold star?
Several people who played FFXI commented on this thread and vouched for the effectiveness of this system. I have provided more than enough examples on how it works. It rewards skill rather than just time spent. To give you an example, it was totally realistic that a well rounded group full of skilled players could earn more XP in 2 hours than another mismatched and not-so-skilled group of the same level fighting the exact same things could in 3 hours.
Before you try spinning this around, assume that the amount of XP gained by that good group in 2 hours fits in perfectly with what the design team intended as the going rate of XP for a group at that level. This also assumes that the game promotes the idea of having well balanced groups and rewards the collective skill of said group accordingly. There are many tenets that would support this mindset. It doesen't need to speed up the game. The XP chains don't need to be considered a "bonus" -- if the game is designed to be challenging, they could be implemented in a way where they are expected. That's how they worked in FFXI. If you weren't pulling XP chains then there was room for improvement and groups would actively strive to do what was necessary to get to the point where they could.
If 1999 EQ launched with bonus XP for consecutive kills and an across the board 25% reduction in base XP to compensate, a lot of people would be praising how amazing it was and how it should definitely be a thing in Pantheon, because it's a "hardcore" mechanic that rewards skilled players over those darn instant gratification/participation trophy/millennial/gold star kids who play modern video games.
I'm clearly being a little over the top but I'm also being fairly serious.
Liav said:If 1999 EQ launched with bonus XP for consecutive kills and an across the board 25% reduction in base XP to compensate, a lot of people would be praising how amazing it was and how it should definitely be a thing in Pantheon, because it's a "hardcore" mechanic that rewards skilled players over those darn instant gratification/participation trophy/millennial/gold star kids who play modern video games.
I'm clearly being a little over the top but I'm also being fairly serious.
Great point, couldn't have said it better myself.
oneADseven said:NoobieDoo said:oneADseven said:
Archaen said:Never was a fan of the "chaining" system for FF.
First off, we don't need Yet-Another-System that has no real impact on the game, and is more detrimental than helpful. I'd rather the focus of my gaming be on the world rather than if I'm adhering to some arbitrary system.
Second, a system like this only speeds up the levelling for good players. They don't need it. The game doesn't need it. Let's not spend time on it.
Doesen't have an impact on the game? Did you not just read how it directly reinforces good teamwork behavior and skilled pulling? Is that not something that should be promoted? Who cares if something "speeds up leveling for good players." Wouldn't that be a good thing for good players who don't have a lot of time which is something we see players asking for, ALL the time? It would be a system that rewards SKILL, not time. But yeah ... we don't need anything like that ... please no ... let's not waste time entertaining an idea that rewards skilled players ... that's blasphemy! The premature dismissal of ideas based on personal agendas (or vendettas in some cases) is something running absolutely rampant on this forum. It's laughable indeed.
I kind of agree with Archaen. Obviously it has an impact on the game. But you don't need an xp bonus thing to promote good teamwork and skilled pulling because it's common sense that chain pulling faster rewards the group with faster xp which is what I think he was talking about.
I prefer Pantheon to behave as realistically as possible hence the title 'virtual world' that they are aiming for. Of course it can't function exaclty like the real world because for 1) that would probably be boring and 2) there are some things that just don't fit/work when crossing over from real-world mechanics to video game (MMO) mechanics. But things like this feel gimmicky to me and aren't really needed. I just want a world to jump into that doesn't hold me by the hand. A world where everything within the game happens organically.
What's wrong with reinforcing, promoting, or even rewarding players who excel at displaying common sense?
It's not that anything is wrong with it. In some games it would work fine for me, I just prefer it not to be in an MMO. It's too gimicky and I like MMOs to behave more realistically because I prefer MMOs that aim at being more of a 'virtual' world than a 'game' world if that makes sense.
I prefer players to be rewarded for using their common sense within the world such as 'hey, if we kill faster by chaining these pulls we will get awesome xp', rather than the game having a feature such as 'hey, if we kill faster by chaining these pulls the game will give us an xp bonus and we will get awesome xp'. I just prefer the world to behave as realistically as possible without all the gimmicks.
Not a FF player...but in reading comments from Brad and company, they may think that might take away some of the socialization factor of what they are looking to do. It wouldn't matter to me either way as that type of play can be quite fun at times. It wouldn't be something I would look for all the time though.
Gimmick vs. non-gimmick is entirely subjective. I personally don't see much value in realism past a certain point. Realism in graphics is as far as I go. Animations, trees, skybox, character models, etc.
As long as we're being rewarded with experience in the form of numerical values with a predetermined possible level cap and various other very unrealistic mechanics, it seems bizarre to me to draw the line at rewarding people with more experience for killing things in more rapid succession. If anything it could even be argued to make more sense, because your efficiency at killing things is a side effect of being more experienced.
NoobieDoo said:oneADseven said:NoobieDoo said:oneADseven said:
Archaen said:Never was a fan of the "chaining" system for FF.
First off, we don't need Yet-Another-System that has no real impact on the game, and is more detrimental than helpful. I'd rather the focus of my gaming be on the world rather than if I'm adhering to some arbitrary system.
Second, a system like this only speeds up the levelling for good players. They don't need it. The game doesn't need it. Let's not spend time on it.
Doesen't have an impact on the game? Did you not just read how it directly reinforces good teamwork behavior and skilled pulling? Is that not something that should be promoted? Who cares if something "speeds up leveling for good players." Wouldn't that be a good thing for good players who don't have a lot of time which is something we see players asking for, ALL the time? It would be a system that rewards SKILL, not time. But yeah ... we don't need anything like that ... please no ... let's not waste time entertaining an idea that rewards skilled players ... that's blasphemy! The premature dismissal of ideas based on personal agendas (or vendettas in some cases) is something running absolutely rampant on this forum. It's laughable indeed.
I kind of agree with Archaen. Obviously it has an impact on the game. But you don't need an xp bonus thing to promote good teamwork and skilled pulling because it's common sense that chain pulling faster rewards the group with faster xp which is what I think he was talking about.
I prefer Pantheon to behave as realistically as possible hence the title 'virtual world' that they are aiming for. Of course it can't function exaclty like the real world because for 1) that would probably be boring and 2) there are some things that just don't fit/work when crossing over from real-world mechanics to video game (MMO) mechanics. But things like this feel gimmicky to me and aren't really needed. I just want a world to jump into that doesn't hold me by the hand. A world where everything within the game happens organically.
What's wrong with reinforcing, promoting, or even rewarding players who excel at displaying common sense?
It's not that anything is wrong with it. In some games it would work fine for me, I just prefer it not to be in an MMO. It's too gimicky and I like MMOs to behave more realistically because I prefer MMOs that aim at being more of a 'virtual' world than a 'game' world if that makes sense.
I prefer players to be rewarded for using their common sense within the world such as 'hey, if we kill faster by chaining these pulls we will get awesome xp', rather than the game having a feature such as 'hey, if we kill faster by chaining these pulls the game will give us an xp bonus and we will get awesome xp'. I just prefer the world to behave as realistically as possible without all the gimmicks.
I don't think it's gimmicky that players earn more XP by actually becoming more experienced with how to pull, manage their mana, or kill fast enough to obtain the chain. XP chains were difficult to pull off. It got to the point where people would post on the forums asking how to obtain some of the higher chains because they just couldn't do enough DPS or because they would run out of mana. If you wanted to pull off the great chains, you needed experience and skill to do it. I don't want the game to be as realistic as possible. I really hope that I don't have to take my character to the bathroom in the middle of every dungeon lest he crap his pants. I'd rather not have to pay city taxes for having my character live in Kingsreach. I'd rather not get subpoena'd for jury duty while I'm in the middle of crafting. If you don't like systems, I would guess you would rather level up and grow stronger, but without having an interface to explain how? No XP bar. No updated toolkit to show you how much more powerful you are ... you just nuke stuff and notice it dies quicker.
I don't know man, I just disagree. I want to play in a fantasy world. Throw the realism out the door. It has a time and place sure, we don't need anything totally off the wall ... but to dismiss an idea because it's a "feature?" What are your thoughts on acclimation? It's essentially a feature that tells you that "Hey, if you have X amount of acclimation gear, the game will allow you to make it through this windstorm." Faction? Resists? So it's okay to pick and choose when features are appropriate? To each their own then ... and I pick XP chains as a feature I like. It's okay to disagree though. I'm willing to bet, though, had you played FFXI you probably would have enjoyed this feature.
I get that XP chain bonus rewards good groups for playing well, but faster XP is already a byproduct of efficient groups farming XP, so if the game has a XP chain bonus or not makes absolutly no different at all because the game will be balanced the way VR wants so in both situations it will be exactly the same, but one of them will say (+ X bonus XP).
jpedrote said:I get that XP chain bonus rewards good groups for playing well, but faster XP is already a byproduct of efficient groups farming XP, so if the game has a XP chain bonus or not makes absolutly no different at all because the game will be balanced the way VR wants so in both situations it will be exactly the same, but one of them will say (+ X bonus XP).
Did you play FFXI? If not, I guess it's pointless trying to explain how cool of a feature it was. It's like trying to tell someone how exhilirating ice fishing for pike can be. You can't fully appreciate it unless you are there ... and of course, have a thing for fishing. I have a thing for rewarding players for skill. I've played plenty of MMO's where mass chain pulling rewarded significantly better XP than the alternatives. (First level 70 tank worldwide in EQ2) and I understand that being more effective is absolutely that ... being more effective. But sometimes I like things to be deeper than that. There is a difference between a back massage and a really good back massage although both can be very gratifying. XP chains were a layer that added value to the notion of rewarding players for skill. I appreciated that layer ... just like I appreciate getting a "really good backrub" as opposed to just a good one.
jpedrote said:I get that XP chain bonus rewards good groups for playing well, but faster XP is already a byproduct of efficient groups farming XP, so if the game has a XP chain bonus or not makes absolutly no different at all because the game will be balanced the way VR wants so in both situations it will be exactly the same, but one of them will say (+ X bonus XP).
One is more rewarding to optimal play. With any properly implemented chain bonus, your net XP is going to be higher than average under optimal circumstances.
It makes a difference in that it incentivizes people to play better and achieve better results. Players who are lazy and/or not as good at the game will not be impacted, players who play their best and have good mechanical skills will be rewarded for their efforts.
To me, chain XP bonus reduces the monotony of a grind by giving you an added layer of depth and/or another underlying objective to keep things fresh. In addition, the better players get rewarded more because their relative XP rates compared to the base rate are higher.
@oneADseven @Liav
"One is more rewarding to optimal play. With any properly implemented chain bonus, your net XP is going to be higher than average under optmal circumstances."
Didn't think about this, breaking the XP chain is indeed a thing to avoid if you're trying to max out XP/hour.
I don't believe players need extra motivation to try and improve, they either want to improve or they don't.
I personally don't care if it's in the game or not, because it will make no difference in the end we will still be getting XP at the rates VR wants us too.
The EQ zealotry that I have seen on this forum has been obnoxious and truly goes against Brad's vision for this game. It isn't supposed to be EQNext and people need to get over that. There are other good games out there that had good features or ideas. FFXI was one of them. There are many FFXI veterans who follow Pantheon and I challenge any one of them to comment on this thread with their thoughts on XP chains. They added value to the game ... especially in the leveling phase, something Brad said he doesen't want to feel quite so monotonous. XP chains helped solve that problem for FFXI ... unless you were there, you wouldn't know. I hear that same stuff all the time on why I wouldn't understand why this or that made EQ special. I understand that EQ was an awesome game and am glad that some of it's heritage will make it's way to Pantheon ... but it would be downright criminal if FFXI was ignored for it's contributions to the MMO genre. Square Enix was one hell of a company ... they totally failed with FFXIV but FFXI was downright amazing.
At this point, I mostly want to hear from other FFXI players. If you had experience using the system, please share your thoughts. They are both meaningful and valuable as it pertains to this discussion. If you didn't play, but can still engage in dialogue with an open-mind not consumed by paranoia or minimization, I'll be happy to respond to you as well. But if you have it convinced in your mind that XP chains are worthless, they provide no value, they're nothing but detrimental, they don't belong in Pantheon, blah blah blah blah blah ... I'm done responding to you. I'm spending my time here reminiscing on what I personally observed as an awesome feature, and one that I enjoyed. I'm tired of hearing people crap all over it when they truly don't even understand how it works. If you are curious ... we will explain it. We can get there ... we can show you the way! We can share the wisdom! But keep an open mind ... don't come trotting negativity or I will seriously turn a cold shoulder. I don't have it in me to combat the unending waves of negativity anymore. XP chains were flat out awesome as far as I'm concerned and I'd be willing to spend some time enlightening anybody who would care to know why and how they were special.
I'm not even an FFXI veteran, I'm an EQ kid. However, I've also played well over a dozen MMOs and can see plenty of valuable mechanics and lessons to be learned from just about every game I've played.
EQ's grind was "enjoyable" but you can only stomach so many years of it. XP chains are a good way of guaranteeing that any amount of grinding through the life of the game doesn't feel stale. Shouting to find competent groups specifically for the purpose of efficiently grinding out a level cap increase is pretty positive for community building in my eyes.
Most importantly, this mechanic to me adds depth to an otherwise irredeemably monotonous part of the game.
Liav said:I'm not even an FFXI veteran, I'm an EQ kid. However, I've also played well over a dozen MMOs and can see plenty of valuable mechanics and lessons to be learned from just about every game I've played.
EQ's grind was "enjoyable" but you can only stomach so many years of it. XP chains are a good way of guaranteeing that any amount of grinding through the life of the game doesn't feel stale. Shouting to find competent groups specifically for the purpose of efficiently grinding out a level cap increase is pretty positive for community building in my eyes.
Most importantly, this mechanic to me adds depth to an otherwise irredeemably monotonous part of the game.
And I really do appreciate your stance Liav. I know you can be quite the vocal fellow yourself and I respect you for being able to hold an intelligent, meaningful dialogue without getting caught up in the notion that there is only one single way to do something. You're open to possibilities ... reconsideration ... it's all really good stuff. It's like a breath of fresh air in a stale and dusty tunnel. There are plenty of folks who provide that same breath of fresh air when they post but it seems like many have been chased off by all the negativity. They pop up here and there but it's infrequent because it's almost a guarantee that they'll be disparaged for their ideas or opinions. It takes a lot of stamina to deal with the constant crab mentality and I appreciate your efforts in this battle. I hope to see more posts from you in the future ... and from those who are lingering in the shadows, unsure of whether or not it's okay to embrace creativity or something as taboo as XP chains.
It's not blasphemy guys ... it's just a cool concept that worked really well, in a really awesome game. As Liav pointed out, it's a mechanic that adds depth to an otherwise monotonous part of the game. That depth is something I am willing to fight for ... it doesen't have to come in the form of an XP chain, but damn, please, let's spice things up a little bit. Let's not write something off because it's considered "feature creep." Let's think outside the box and realize that most challenges can be overcome when you put your think box to work. Let's not kill the conversation because VR already has a plan. We know they do. That's why we have pledged to this game. I have faith in their plan but am open to the possibility that maybe some contributions from the community have enough merit to earn potential consideration in the future. It's really not that farfetched of a concept ... we should be encouraging each other, not shooting each other down. There are plenty who encourage me ... thank you, it's really appreciated.
oneADseven said:It's not blasphemy guys ... it's just a cool concept that worked really well, in a really awesome game. As Liav pointed out, it's a mechanic that adds depth to an otherwise monotonous part of the game. That depth is something I am willing to fight for ... it doesen't have to come in the form of an XP chain, but damn, please, let's spice things up a little bit. Let's not write something off because it's considered "feature creep." Let's think outside the box and realize that most challenges can be overcome when you put your think box to work. Let's not kill the conversation because VR already has a plan. We know they do. That's why we have pledged to this game. I have faith in their plan but am open to the possibility that maybe some contributions from the community have enough merit to earn potential consideration in thefuture. It's really not that farfetched of a concept ... we should be encouraging each other, not shooting each other down. There are plenty who encourage me ... thank you, it's really appreciated.
As long as they don't have hell levels, I'll be estactic. I'll actually moderate my comment about the socialization aspect...I keep forgetting voice chat. I should get that tattooed on my hands. I'm getting old. But as I mentioned, it is something I would look to do at time, that can be fun..other times, not so much.
Liav said:jpedrote said:The main way VR is trying to combat stale XP grinding is by implementing random dispositions in the mobs.
I like that idea as well. Both combined would be amazing.
Agreed. Random NPC dispositions would make XP chains even more interesting than they were in FFXI. That would be absolutely awesome.
Not a fan of XP chaining as I am not a fan of bonus experience in general. I agree with some who have said that a good group already has it's reward just by being better than average, meaning they kill faster and with longer chains of mobs before rest. If they are killing 1.5 mobs for every 1 an average group is then they are already getting 50% more exp/hr, which comes out to the 2 hours xp for a good group is 3+ hours xp for an average group. I don't believe it is "crab mentality" of "if I can't have it, neither can you" so much as people just disagreeing or saying "I just don't want it", and they have every right to have a different opinion and to voice their own concerns.
That said I am not against the idea of mob chains doing something beneficial for a solid group, perhaps it coaxes named mobs in a camp to spawn faster/more frequently or the further into a chain the greater the chance regular mobs have to drop the more uncommon/rare items from their loot table. Some bosses could be spawned exclusively by chaining even, say a room has 8 linked mobs and if you can manage to chain through them all in one fell swoop or within x amount of time of the first one dying then the boss comes charging in.
jpedrote said:The main way VR is trying to combat stale XP grinding is by implementing random dispositions in the mobs.
I like this idea a lot too. The base they showed in the last stream has me hopeful of different interactions to keep groups on their toes and exp grinding interesting with different mob dispositions.
Just because someone doesn't agree with you that doesn't mean they are wrong. Or that they are right. It just means that they don't agree and might not find a thing that you find to be great, fun or whatnot to be great, fun or whatnot :) I loved the way a good group in EQ could do amazing things, escpecially if it was a "non perfect combo" group. I was not a fan of the FFXI way, but that doesn't mean that EQ was better than FFXI, it just means that I liked it better :) In fact, I didn't like the EQ2 way of doing things either. I loved Ciry of Heroes. Different games, different ideas. Some loved it, some didn't - So just trying to say, we are all diffferent and there will (most likely) never be anything that we can all agree on, the important thing is to try to find the one thing that gets close to what you like. If it is not in place A, it might in place B. Or C. Or Z :)
@Iksar
I like your ideas for chaining mobs a lot, but I hope the game doesn't tell you what to do in a blatant way (ie: via chat messages), to discover the spawn "formula" for a rare maybe you need to talk with someone that knows the dungeon, there's a book somewhere that hints a the possibilty of a rare spawning if you kill his guards within the time limit, or maybe an NPC mentions it.
