Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

XP Bonus Chains

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    • 175 posts
    June 7, 2017 6:25 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    sunstalkr said:

    Liav said:

    I just don't understand why people keep citing skill chains as if it has anything to do with XP chains.

    I might as well post pictures of chain armor for the relevance it has to the topic at hand.

    I honestly dont know how you cant understand that an xp chain IS bonus exp. IF the chain wasnt there would you get the same exp? Obviously no ergo the name xp chain.

    We're not even talking about the same thing.

    Pressing buttons in a specific order to unlock an additional effect is not an XP chain, it's a skill chain, and it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread despite the fact that I've seen it cited several times, often as an argument against the mechanic.

    They are literally, fundamentally different things.

    The reason skill-chaining (or perhaps skill coordination is a better term) has been brought up is because it accomplishes much of the same goal as xp-chaining but in a different way. Regardless of the effectiveness, both ideas are supposed to help with improved teamwork, faster killing (and by extension more xp), reduced monotony.

    • 2130 posts
    June 7, 2017 7:47 AM PDT

    Yes, but the same can be said of at least a dozen other ideas/threads.

    A thread about voice communication being built in to the game to improve communication during more stressful content fulfills all of those criteria, however, it has no place in this thread. Skill chains and XP chains are more different than alike despite the fact that they fulfill a small amount of the same criteria.

    This is entirely ignoring the fact that numerous posts in this thread express outright confusion about what an XP chain is to begin with, then proceeds to criticize something like Heroic Opportunities from EQ2. If that isn't derailing, I don't know what is.

    • 3237 posts
    June 7, 2017 8:27 AM PDT

    As someone who has used both XP/Skill chains extensively, I can tell you that they are nothing alike.  With skill chains, you would essentially hit a flashing button.  With XP chains, you could do whatever you wanted.  Skill chains felt forced and contrived whereas XP chains did not.  The biggest difference, of course, is that XP chains never limited your kit in anyway.  You would never see a message on your screen that required you to use a "boot" attack for tanks, a "coin" attack for scouts, a "hammer" attack for healers, etc.  The timer functionality was the only part that felt imposed in some ways because it could technically encourage you to perform actions that you otherwise might not have had it not been there, but it never really felt "forced."  It didn't feel like a gimick to me.  It more or less felt like an inherent challenge designed within the combat mechanics.  With heroic opportunities, there was no rhyme or reason to executing the skill chain.  With XP Chains, that rhyme or reason was entirely up to you.

    The world was tough, the NPC's were challenging.  Groups would very rarely fight lower con mobs because they wouldn't qualify for the bonus, and this caused groups to always fight the more difficult encounters and the camps never lasted quite as long.  I definitely understand how someone might anticipate the system feeling fake based on how it sounds, but in real experience, it never felt that way.  It's tough to explain.  Killing multiple difficult mobs was always a challenge in and of itself, and with the way that game worked, they recognized that.  They knew it was challenging for groups to kill even con or higher mobs in succession and they felt a reward was appropriate.  They pulled it off in very slick fashion and unfortunately that's the best description I can provide.  My favorite grinding sessions were in that game and just speaking from personal experience, an MMO veteran that has spent thousands of hours doing it in a large variety of games, that means something to me.  I never really minded grinding in the other games ... even with it being repetitive.  XP Chains just made it more interesting, more fun, more rewarding ... and definitely less monotonous.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 7, 2017 8:32 AM PDT
    • 1778 posts
    June 7, 2017 10:16 AM PDT
    Would real life experience chains be the things that tie us down with obligations as we mature and become aware of our responsibility to family, friends and society? What would be the bonus?
    • 175 posts
    June 7, 2017 10:21 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    Yes, but the same can be said of at least a dozen other ideas/threads.

    A thread about voice communication being built in to the game to improve communication during more stressful content fulfills all of those criteria, however, it has no place in this thread. Skill chains and XP chains are more different than alike despite the fact that they fulfill a small amount of the same criteria.

    This is entirely ignoring the fact that numerous posts in this thread express outright confusion about what an XP chain is to begin with, then proceeds to criticize something like Heroic Opportunities from EQ2. If that isn't derailing, I don't know what is.

    The specific topic is xp-chains. The reason given for having them was team-work, reduced monotony and bonus reward (xp, faster killing, etc.). Therefore, anything that works within this same framework is open for discussion. The merits of xp-chains do not exist in a vacuum. Is there a better way to accomplish the same result? Could they work in tandem? Why did other games not add xp-chaining and instead work more toward skill coordination? These are all valid questions given the topic.

    As for voice chat or any other idea that may have a significant impact on xp-chaining, why wouldn't they be open for discussion? Many of us who don't want xp-chaining do see the merits of the results it may offer. We want more team work, we want reduced monotony, we want bonus rewa... well, maybe not this one. Just because we don't like xp-chaining doesn't mean we don't have experience with it. Many of us do and are not a fan of the mechanic. We're offering alternatives to accomplish the same goal. Nothing wrong with that in this thread.


    This post was edited by Archaen at June 7, 2017 10:22 AM PDT
    • 2130 posts
    June 7, 2017 10:48 AM PDT

    >97% of articles on Wikipedia will eventually link to the Wikipedia page on Philosophy. However, discussion about philosophy is generally considered off topic and bizarre to bring up in a discussion about which pair of shoes you should buy. If you want to be pedantic you can argue that every single ounce of human reasoning is intrinsically philosophical in nature. I'd argue that's an interesting philosophy. Also you should buy the Adidas.

    I can't really come up with a better way to illustrate my point. Either way, this thread has run its course in my opinion.

    • 3237 posts
    June 7, 2017 1:46 PM PDT

    Brad wrote up a really nice blog post on grinding last year:

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/173/grinding-good-or-bad

     

    It's a really good read and I would recommend that anybody interested in the grinding topic have a look at it.  That said, based on my intrepretation of that blog entry, it would appear that XP chains could help serve as a context to alleviate the monotony of grinding.  I don't think they are the end-all be-all solution, but I have personal experience using them and the ideal grind he alludes to in his entry was something that could be achieved in FFXI, and most former FFXI players would agree with that.  Just ask them for yourself!  I think NPC dispositions can go a long way toward combating the boring and repetitive gameplay often associated with the grinding of yesteryear.  I'm really looking forward to them.  Beyond that, though, could chaining serve a purpose?  It wouldn't have to be exactly how it was in FFXI.  Maybe "XP Chains" could be something that only opens up in certain situations.  Maybe players are only allowed to utilize 2-3 hours of "XP Chain Opportunity" time per day.  I don't know, just tossing some ideas out there.

    Again, I've spent thousands of hours grinding in a wide variety of games.  FFXI provided the most consistently enjoyable grind sessions of all the games I played.  The main reason why is because they added an extra layer of purpose behind the grind.  They added strategic windows of opportunity that allowed players to make important choices that would directly affect the efficiency of their time.  One could argue that this happens organically without XP chains, and I would agree.  Regardless of outside variables, I always put together an ideal group when the opportunity was available.  However, XP chains expanded upon the value of tactical gameplay and offered a deeper layer of risk vs reward.  They were engaging.  They required exceptional teamwork to pull off where player choice was king.  There were no contrived pop-ups on your screen saying that you had to use this ability to unlock this effect.  The path was simple; fight challenging mobs as efficiently as possible.

    Defeating challenging encounters in that game was difficult in it's own right, but doing it in rapid succession was what made it really fun.  Believe it or not, XP Chains would occassionally create downtime for players.  Rather than engaging the first mob you see, as soon as you see it, a group might wait for other respawns in the area to pop up, ensuring they will have enough mobs available to continue linking their chain.  Situational awareness was always at the forefront of your mind.  It was never a matter of advancing from Point A to Point B and killing everything in your path.  It was advancing from Point A to Point B while maximizing the potential value of that movement in the process.  That's what made it fun ... analyzing an area, formulating a plan, and then executing it.  The best part is that you always wanted to make a plan to accomodate the biggest challenge possible.

    Another important factor was just how much it rewarded good behavior.  I have seen plenty of players make the argument that they wanted to play a game that rewarded skill more than just play-time.  XP Chains delivered that.  They didn't require a group to have the best gear in the game to pull them off.  One group pulling off successful chains could earn more XP in 2 hours than a haphazardly thrown together group could in 3 hours.  That's what made them feel so rewarding ... knowing that your decisions had a direct impact on your success.  Again, that can be achieved with or without chains, but chaining made it feel more significant due to the extra risk/reward potential.  The window of opportunity is there but it's up to you to make the most of it.  I'll take that in any aspect of gameplay I can get it.  I want it with aggro as well.

    Example:  With aggro method A, I spam taunt and maintain aggro.  With aggro method B, I spam taunt but also time certain abilities (Successfully interrupt or silence an enemy spell cast) to generate extra threat to earn bonus aggro.  At the end of the day, the result is the same.  I maintain aggro in both examples but example B required an extra layer of coordination to achieve the bonus threat.  That layer wasn't necessary to maintain it, but it was there anyway, further solidfying the aggro I had on that mob.  At any given point in time, I prefer dynamic combat mechanics that reward or penalize player choice.  XP Chains provided that opportunity to groups  --  you don't need them to advance, but the game recognizes that they are difficult to pull off and rewards you accordingly.

    What it comes down to at the end of the day is what is more fun for a player.  Brad alluded to there being two kinds of player choices when it comes to grinding, going down path 1 that is more fun, challenging, and engaging, but less efficient with XP.  Path 2 was overly repetitive but more efficient.  Statistically, players will go down the more efficient path even if it's less challenging, fun, or engaging.  For me, personally, XP Chains make it to where the path that is more fun, challenging, and engaging is also the path that is most efficient for XP!  Some players might not feel the same way and I respect that.  Again, this might not sound great on paper but it felt awesome in real time.  Players were always looking to push the envelope.  If you wanted to attain the bonus, it required even con or higher mobs (challenge)  and exceptional coordination/teamwork (engaging/fun).

    When I think about NPC Dispositions, and the monkey wrenches they will inevitabley toss into our grinding program, they make XP Chaining sound even more engaging and challenging!  There would be more choices that we would have to make, and those choices could continue to change with every new set of respawns.  Now that sounds like fun!  I could stay at the same camp for hours, but with each new wave of respawns, there is the potential for a different tactical path for maximum efficiency?  Learning the different dispositions and their tendencies will be a challenge in it's own right.  Weaving in and out of combat, prioritizing this mob over the next, and making the most of this ever changing combat landscape ... that's about 100x more engaging than the 10 hours I spent at orc camp that one night.

     

    *As a quick edit, I just want it to be clear that I am not demanding that XP chains be used in Pantheon.  I am not a game developer.  I am a fan of the genre and am only sharing my personal perspective on what makes a fun, challenging, and engaging grind.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 8, 2017 8:20 AM PDT
    • 94 posts
    June 8, 2017 6:09 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    First rule of XP Chains, they only work on even con or higher mobs.

    Who said? For sake of argument why not let them work on ALL mobs? Because you say so or another game did it that way doesnt make it right. Its just how that game did it.

    • 94 posts
    June 8, 2017 6:17 PM PDT

    Archaen said:

    Liav said:

    sunstalkr said:

    Liav said:

    I just don't understand why people keep citing skill chains as if it has anything to do with XP chains.

    I might as well post pictures of chain armor for the relevance it has to the topic at hand.

    I honestly dont know how you cant understand that an xp chain IS bonus exp. IF the chain wasnt there would you get the same exp? Obviously no ergo the name xp chain.

    We're not even talking about the same thing.

    Pressing buttons in a specific order to unlock an additional effect is not an XP chain, it's a skill chain, and it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread despite the fact that I've seen it cited several times, often as an argument against the mechanic.

    They are literally, fundamentally different things.

    The reason skill-chaining (or perhaps skill coordination is a better term) has been brought up is because it accomplishes much of the same goal as xp-chaining but in a different way. Regardless of the effectiveness, both ideas are supposed to help with improved teamwork, faster killing (and by extension more xp), reduced monotony.

    As I said before no matter how you wrap it up or call it, sugar coat it whatever, its bonus exp for killing mobs. Regardless of the fact that it reduces monotony its bonus exp for killing mobs. IF the only bonus you got was BECAUSE you killed faster so got more exp then that would be dif. Since its not and you DO get extra exp then its a bonus amount of exp. I dont understand how ppl cant understand that basic truth. I know some ppl on here desperately want these chains it still doesnt change that simple fact.

    • 279 posts
    June 8, 2017 6:53 PM PDT

    Sure it's a bonus off of base, in a vacuum.

    But if your group gets 3 chains in an hour period, but the devs balance the time taken to get to cap based around an average group getting 5 chains per hour, it then becomes a penalty because you have fallen below the developers perceived baseline. It results in you taking longer to get the same amount of work done.

    With or without chains devs decide roughly the /played it's going to take too hit level cap.

    And I haven't seen anyone explain why bonus XP is inherently bad though maybe I missed it.

    • 3237 posts
    June 8, 2017 7:31 PM PDT

    sunstalkr said:

    oneADseven said:

    First rule of XP Chains, they only work on even con or higher mobs.

    Who said? For sake of argument why not let them work on ALL mobs? Because you say so or another game did it that way doesnt make it right. Its just how that game did it.

    Well, you said this:

    "What I can see with these chains is ppl camping the same spot over and over because they know its full of blues and greens, which you can kill faster than even or yellow cons, then doing it till you outlevel that area. Then move to the next area and rinse and repeat."

    And I simply responded to let you know that it was never a problem to begin with and I don't see why it ever should be. You mentioned it as potential pain point but now want to consider it for the sake of argument?  Sorry you don't like the idea, thanks for the feedback.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 8, 2017 8:00 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    June 8, 2017 7:49 PM PDT

    Sunmistress said:

    Sure it's a bonus off of base, in a vacuum.

    But if your group gets 3 chains in an hour period, but the devs balance the time taken to get to cap based around an average group getting 5 chains per hour, it then becomes a penalty because you have fallen below the developers perceived baseline. It results in you taking longer to get the same amount of work done.

    With or without chains devs decide roughly the /played it's going to take too hit level cap.

    And I haven't seen anyone explain why bonus XP is inherently bad though maybe I missed it.

    A lot of games have bonus XP.  Some offer bonus XP weekends.  Some give bonus XP for not logging in for awhile.  Some give bonus XP when you purchase their bonus XP potions.  None of those options really make sense for a hardcore MMO.  Rewarding players for exceptional teamwork, coordination, and skill though?  I could get down with that.

    • 9115 posts
    June 9, 2017 3:31 AM PDT

    Again, just reminding everyone that this is not something we will be doing in Pantheon and by dragging the thread out and arguing over opinions, just pushes it closer to being closed and removed from the General Pantheon subforum as it doesn't relate to our game.

    It was an idea, an answer has been given and apart from a few questions and experiences, this thread should have ended pages ago, so please be mindful of dragging threads and topics like this out as these are the exact threads/topics that get closed because people are incapable of discussing them without arguing even though it won't be in Pantheon!

    • 18 posts
    June 12, 2017 12:27 PM PDT

    Reminding on there are FFXI Players they are still loving Pantheon Development ... just want to say: FFXI gameplay matters in many ways .... @devs: Please read this again and do not forget these pretty and polish mechanics. Thanks alot!! https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxi/comments/4n6dbv/upcoming_mmo_for_fans_of_ffxi_everquest_pantheon/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=comment_list

     

    PS: and sorry for my bad english ... i cant diskuss deeply with you guys in english, but i just wanted to say "FFXI was great and many will be happy to see some of these mechanics in Pantheon"


    This post was edited by lentik at June 12, 2017 12:35 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    June 12, 2017 2:07 PM PDT

    Thanks for chiming in Lentik.  There are some interesting comments in there.  Two that are particularly disturbing:

    "The problem I have with pantheon is that it is way more favoring the designs and biases of the everquest crowd (somewhat expected considering Brad). The community there is practically hostile towards ffxi players and pretty much anything that deviates from their ideal of everquest even in the slightest amounts.

    I know this from experience as I used to be pretty active there but I grew tired of dealing with their crap.

    It still seem like the closest thing to a modern offering like older ffxi so I will probably still try it. I just have lost a lot of faith that even being as close as it is to my wants, that it will truly be a new mmo home for me."

    and

    "Yeah, several people including myself were there from the ffxi community and several/many of the eq fans would repeatedly spout false information about ffxi trying to discredit it from discussion. Despite the fact that I am looking for all of the "tent poles" or w/e they're called of pantheon (basically the primary points of the game) I was basically told again and again that the game wasn't for me even though I frequently agreed (and more importantly, agreed on underlying goals) on much of the topics of discussion."

    I have noticed these exact issues as well despite Brad having been very clear that Pantheon is NOT an Everquest clone.  I know a lot of people who have made similar comments and it's a real shame.  These comments are from over a year ago but it doesen't seem like anything has changed regarding that anti-anything-not-made-in-eq-mentality is concerned.  Having played both the EQ and FF franchises, I was able to enjoy the best of both worlds and they had more in common than people think.  I'd like to know which features/systems/concepts for Pantheon were inspired by any game other than EQ or Vanguard.  I hear stuff all the time about "This is similar to what you saw in EQ or Vangard" but have literally never seen "This is like what you saw in FFXI."

    The FF audience is bound to make it's way here (many already have) and I feel like we should be trying to capture them and make them feel at home instead of ostracizing and making them feel like outsiders.  I've seen it play out dozens of times on here and it's very offputting/unsettling.  Our community is better than that but a select few EQ zealots seem to go out of their way to make others feel uncomfortable and I really hope there is a genuine effort to put an end to that sort of thing as soon as possible.  FFXI veterans are going to love Pantheon because of the core tenets ... they represent a game/world that would feel very similar to how Vanadiel from FFXI felt.  That entire player base is basically ripe for the taking as there is no other game out there that can offer what Pantheon will and it's as close as anybody will ever get to reliving the golden days from FFXI.

    Another good read from the FFXI community:  https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxi/comments/4mfcwt/if_you_restarted_the_game_recently_what_is_it/


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 12, 2017 2:18 PM PDT
    • 26 posts
    June 12, 2017 2:46 PM PDT

    This thread must be dead cause it keeps draging on and on.

    • 94 posts
    June 12, 2017 5:03 PM PDT

    Ohanko said:

    This thread must be dead cause it keeps draging on and on.

    Agreed. Its dead per Kilsin.


    This post was edited by sunstalkr at June 12, 2017 5:04 PM PDT
    • 18 posts
    June 15, 2017 1:08 PM PDT
    • 26 posts
    June 15, 2017 1:11 PM PDT

    /facepalm

    • 18 posts
    June 15, 2017 1:33 PM PDT

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJuAc4iInAw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCHTZDMZTpU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AwlBgAbWfw

     

    These 3 videos explaining the greatness of gear swapping and show the best red mage there was ever in FFXI (old times). He soloed many endgame contents, normally you need many ppl to fight against these mobs.

    This was a time, where one player could get legendary, not only why he had the best gear ingame, no he was the best because he played over hours without errors. With a high playerskill it was possible to grow outgrow everything ... a great time for mmos and i hope pantheon will bring these days back. Pantheon can learn from ffxi, thats for shure and maybe one developer will be inspirating by that great videos ...


    This post was edited by lentik at June 15, 2017 2:18 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    June 15, 2017 4:19 PM PDT

    Lentik, thanks for posting.  I see you have been in the community for over 3 years.  I'm glad to see that this thread lead to you finally jumping into the conversation.  FF was a great game.  Feel free to PM me anytime!

    • 3237 posts
    September 7, 2017 7:39 AM PDT

    Seeing as "XP Chains" won't be in Pantheon, I hope VR considers other alternatives that can accomplish the same goal.  The XP ratio should be significantly higher for mobs that are yellow con or higher  --  this rewards players for fighting "challenging" content and will also reduce monotony with camps.  Rather than sticking to a single camp for a full day, players would generally leave it as soon as the mobs no longer con as challenging.  Additionally, I like the idea of an "on fire" mechanic where certain classes may get stronger the longer they are in combat.  Something like that could allow players to strategically pick their fights and attempt to have a player or two "on fire" prior to engaging a boss or pulling a large AoE group.  Many players have voiced opposition to the idea of "an arbitrary mechanic" such as XP chains, although I feel people would warm up to it if they were actually able to experience it first-hand.  I doubt we'll see an "on fire" mechanic but I am just tossing it out there as a possible idea.

    • 2752 posts
    September 7, 2017 11:11 AM PDT

    Maybe we'll see a berserker class at some point (I hope) and it will have a battle fever "on fire" mechanic. 

     

    "How time seemed to blur and slow and even stop, how the past and the future vanished until there was noting but the instant, how fear fled, and thought fled, and even your body. You don’t feel your wounds then, or the ache in your back from the weight of the armour, or the sweat running down into your eyes. You stop feeling, you stop thinking, you stop being you, there is only the fight, the foe, this man and then the next and the next and the next, and you know they are afraid and tired but you’re not, you’re alive, and death is all around you but their swords move so slowly, and you can dance through them laughing." ~A Clash of Kings, Chapter 61, Tyrion XIV

    • 470 posts
    September 9, 2017 2:54 AM PDT

    MordreadRN said:

    I don't think it is needed. Back in EQ the skill of your puller could make a huge difference in how fast the exp flowed and that is an "feature" I like better than a XP bonus thingy. I know the exp chain also requires a good puller but just feel it detracts from the game to get different amounts of exp in such a manner.

     

    Just my two cp :)

    Been a long time since I played it, but didn't Dark Age of Camelot have some kind of system that added an XP modifier to mobs the longer they were up and went unkilled to encourage players to tackle other dungeons and areas rather than sticking with the same old stuff? That sort of bonus for XP might be nice to have to encourage players to get out more a bit.


    This post was edited by Kratuk at September 9, 2017 2:54 AM PDT
    • 70 posts
    December 26, 2017 1:09 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    FFXI used an XP chain system.  Just curious if something like this would ever be considered for Pantheon?  It's not a huge deal to me either way but I enjoyed the added depth that it provided to the "grind"  --  it really paid off to have a great group composition and experienced players.  Would like to hear feedback from other FFXI players as well ... what were your thoughts on the XP chain feature?  Was it something you enjoyed?  I haven't seen anything quite like it in other games but it always stuck out to me as a feature I enjoyed while I played that game.  It was rather difficult to pull off consistent bonus XP chains but if you managed to do it, you could FEEL the difference on your progress bar.  It certainly turned pulling into an art and provided another layer of strategy to the flow of combat.

    I'm all for anything that makes the game more interesting.  I read a few of the posts of the naysayers, and honestly, I think some of these people just don't like change.  EQ didn't do it that way, so no game needs it.  What the heck?  I already played EQ for going on 18 years off and on.  I would like Pantheon to take mmorpgs to the next level, not just be EQ with a new skin.