Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

XP Bonus Chains

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    • 2130 posts
    June 3, 2017 5:32 PM PDT

    @Kargen

    What does that have to do with the topic of this thread, though? Playing your class the opposite of the way it's intended to be played will get you kicked from 95% of groups regardless of if the proposed system is implemented.

    • 279 posts
    June 3, 2017 6:07 PM PDT

    Agreed, if you are doing some off kilter build and it is not effective why on earth would anyone keep you around. Let alone it's quite disrespectful to the entire group of people that invited you. Their time has a value, if you are being ineffective you are in effect wasting their time. 

    You want to role play and such or do odd builds, do that on YOUR time, not 5 other peoples. That is a major part of teamwork, if you are a pitcher they aren't inviting you to play firstbase.

    • 690 posts
    June 3, 2017 6:10 PM PDT

    Liav said:

    Biggest issue I see throughout this is entire thread has been citation of tenets on both sides. Read the tenets and perform mental gymnastics to find a way that they agree with your already formed opinions about how things should be, giving the illusion that the tenets actually aligned completely with you in the first place.

    There are other systems in reality that operate based on tenets and they seem to have this same phenomenon. Weird. Not the place for that discussion, though.

    I'm not ashamed to say I was a fan of the idea. Tenet waving is not arguing a system based on its merits, it's just muddying the waters. Pretty much all of these discussions are pointless and can be summed up by "I hope the devs agree with my specific mental model of what the tenets represent".

    I don't have the patience for that.

    Perceived "merits" are no more faulty than perceived views on tenets. They are both heavily based on the individual beliefs and values you seem to feel muddy the waters.

    To put it another way, noone can ever truly agree with each other in exactly the same way on what any concept whatseover truly means. Thus all arguments we make are pointless, including the argument that this sort of argument is pointless.

    Are you beggining to see how unhelpful posts like this really are to the Pantheon forums?

    In addition, every argument you make ever can be summed up by " I hope x agrees with my specific mental model of this concept". If it didn't, you wouldnt bother making the argument.

    For example, "I hope beaverbiscuit agrees with my perception that arguments using the tenets just muddy the waters because you end up doing mental gymnastics to make the tenets agree with your pre conceived opinions".

    ___________________

    This forums is for discussions on what makes Pantheon better, and hyping up the game.

    The tenets are basically what VR feels are merits for their game. By drawing your arguments from those tenets, you at least draw your perceived merits from their wording. 

    It also helps to draw from the requests and statements of the OP in a thread to ensure that your post fits in with his.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at June 3, 2017 6:47 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    June 3, 2017 6:31 PM PDT

    Kargen said:

    OMG please no... This would detract highly from the entire social aspect of the game that Brad is working towards. He wants you to stop on occasion and chat with your group, talk about upcoming mobs, about lore, about anything but grinding speed..

    This game is meant to be an exploritory adventure game, not a korean grindfest..  Take your time, look around, jump off the side of a castle.. just because you can **cough kilsin cough**.

    If I am judged on my qualiifications in a group entirely by the hardcore nature and playstyle of my class, then the creativity and immersiveness is ruined for me. I want to play a palidan that heals instead of tanks, a druid that nukes instead of heals, a shaman that is allergic to dogs, a wizard with better 2hb skills than evocation, a rogue with high pick pocket. I want to try it all! not just what is best for an ideal group.

    Korean grindfest ... really?  FFXI basically wrote the book on class diversity.  If someone wanted to create a healing paladin, nuking redmage, or a wizard samurai they could, and there were actually scenarios in the game where they were viable!  XP chains did not prevent people from messing around and having fun ... it was just one feature ... it's not like it was the primary focus of the entire game.  It was actually a pretty minor feature in the grand scheme of things as should be evident by the amount of time it took someone to actually bring it up on this forum.  I don't think I've ever seen a worse reaction to an idea being shared than what I have seen here.  FFXI is legendary if we're talking about exploratory adventure games that allowed players to mix it up.  Their sub-class system was second to none.  The leveling phase in that game was absolutely amazing and I would be thrilled to see another game deliver half as much awesomeness.  The amount of ignorance I have seen on this thread could fuel a nuclear reactor.  Just let this idea die with some dignity and I'll make sure not to bring up another Japanese inspired idea again.  I had an easier time communicating with people using a language translator in that game than I do speaking plain English on here.  Yeah, lock of the week indeed.

    • 1399 posts
    June 3, 2017 6:41 PM PDT

    Liav said:

    @Kargen

    What does that have to do with the topic of this thread, though? Playing your class the opposite of the way it's intended to be played will get you kicked from 95% of groups regardless of if the proposed system is implemented.

    "Opposite of the way it's intended" is in my opinion, nothing more than your opinion. Visionary Realms is creating the world it is for us to find our ways in it. Brad gave a number once of 15% of players that are raiders (ie. People that play the class the way you think they should) that is what I believe to be a vocal minority. Those are also the types that invest more time in game and in the forums and so they gave a louder voice. But they are not the majority.

    This coming from a player who's EQ Wizard had not only max 2hb but also maxed h2h skill. To ME that's how that class was intended to be played... ALL skills maxed. Not playing barbie doll dress up as I rushed to 50 and quit.


    This post was edited by Zorkon at June 4, 2017 7:25 PM PDT
    • 690 posts
    June 3, 2017 7:07 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Korean grindfest ... really?  FFXI basically wrote the book on class diversity.  If someone wanted to create a healing paladin, nuking redmage, or a wizard samurai they could, and there were actually scenarios in the game where they were viable!  XP chains did not prevent people from messing around and having fun ... it was just one feature ... it's not like it was the primary focus of the entire game.  It was actually a pretty minor feature in the grand scheme of things as should be evident by the amount of time it took someone to actually bring it up on this forum.  I don't think I've ever seen a worse reaction to an idea being shared than what I have seen here.  FFXI is legendary if we're talking about exploratory adventure games that allowed players to mix it up.  Their sub-class system was second to none.  The leveling phase in that game was absolutely amazing and I would be thrilled to see another game deliver half as much awesomeness.  The amount of ignorance I have seen on this thread could fuel a nuclear reactor.  Just let this idea die with some dignity and I'll make sure not to bring up another Japanese inspired idea again.  I had an easier time communicating with people using a language translator in that game than I do speaking plain English on here.  Yeah, lock of the week indeed.

    oneADseven said:

    ...If someone can point out how the idea goes against the established tenets of the game, they have my ear on why it has no business being in Pantheon.  That is something I have yet to see.  What I have seen, consistently on this forum for months, is "It's bad for this game because I don't like it."...

    You should forgive them man, not everyone is willing to post all of the tenets xp chaining can possibly apply to and show how xp chains may/will go agaisnt each one=)

    It took quite a long time for me to do. 

    Besides, the Japanese have lots of cool ideas, even xp chaining is cool if it actually fits the game it is in.

    @kargen

    Pantheon is going to be a really difficult game. With or without chaining it will be difficult to mess around.

    There is some hope for wonky character builds though, as Pantheon will also be a very situational game with characters changing themselves up all the time. 


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at June 3, 2017 7:17 PM PDT
    • 2130 posts
    June 3, 2017 8:05 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    "Opposite of the way it's intended" is in my opinion, nothing more than your opinion. Visionary Realms is creating the world it is for us to find our ways in it. Brad gave a number once of 15% of players that are raiders (ie. People that play the class the way you think they should) that is what I believe to be a vocal minority. Those are also the types that invest more time in game and in the forums and so they gave a louder voice. But they are not the majority.

    This coming from a player who's EW Wizard had not only max 2hb but also maxed h2h skill. To ME that's how that class was intended to be played... ALL skills maxed. Not playing barbie doll dress up as I rushed to 50 and quit.

    Pantheon is not a pure sandbox type of game.

    When the developers create a class, there's a relatively rigid design philosophy behind how that class will be played. EQ is that way, Vanguard was that way, Pantheon is that way.

    No one is talking about raiding or min maxing. The fact is that if you roll a Ranger and you don't equip a bow, the overwhelming majority of the playerbase will not group/whatever with you. Even something as trivial as a grind group isn't going to succeed with a Paladin who thinks only healing is a viable way to play the class.

    This is very off topic.

     


    This post was edited by Liav at June 3, 2017 8:20 PM PDT
    • 94 posts
    June 4, 2017 7:22 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Kargen said:

    OMG please no... This would detract highly from the entire social aspect of the game that Brad is working towards. He wants you to stop on occasion and chat with your group, talk about upcoming mobs, about lore, about anything but grinding speed..

    This game is meant to be an exploritory adventure game, not a korean grindfest..  Take your time, look around, jump off the side of a castle.. just because you can **cough kilsin cough**.

    If I am judged on my qualiifications in a group entirely by the hardcore nature and playstyle of my class, then the creativity and immersiveness is ruined for me. I want to play a palidan that heals instead of tanks, a druid that nukes instead of heals, a shaman that is allergic to dogs, a wizard with better 2hb skills than evocation, a rogue with high pick pocket. I want to try it all! not just what is best for an ideal group.

    Korean grindfest ... really?  FFXI basically wrote the book on class diversity.  If someone wanted to create a healing paladin, nuking redmage, or a wizard samurai they could, and there were actually scenarios in the game where they were viable!  XP chains did not prevent people from messing around and having fun ... it was just one feature ... it's not like it was the primary focus of the entire game.  It was actually a pretty minor feature in the grand scheme of things as should be evident by the amount of time it took someone to actually bring it up on this forum.  I don't think I've ever seen a worse reaction to an idea being shared than what I have seen here.  FFXI is legendary if we're talking about exploratory adventure games that allowed players to mix it up.  Their sub-class system was second to none.  The leveling phase in that game was absolutely amazing and I would be thrilled to see another game deliver half as much awesomeness.  The amount of ignorance I have seen on this thread could fuel a nuclear reactor.  Just let this idea die with some dignity and I'll make sure not to bring up another Japanese inspired idea again.  I had an easier time communicating with people using a language translator in that game than I do speaking plain English on here.  Yeah, lock of the week indeed.

    It seems like there is a bit of "greater than thou" going on meaning some ppl think they know better than others what is the right way to play a game. There is no right way. Its about fun remember? To me most of the ppl that are pushing the idea of the chain xp are also going to be the first ones to max level which is great for them. Big deal is what I say BUT then those same ppl will complain about there not being enough content and then quit the game if VR doesnt cater to their needs. I have seen that exact thing time and again so please dont tell me it wont happen or isnt true.

    This game is being made to be like EQ was when it first came out. There WERE no xp chains. IF Brad wants to make this game like EQ was with updates to some areas of course there wont be any xp chains. Personally I dont care one way or the other. I am just pointing out my own exp with ppl that level faster and in effect thats what you are saying/wanting with having xp chains. You want to be able to get more exp faster for what end result? To level faster. Get to end game content. Complain about lack of content. Leave the game when something isnt put in right away. Thats the progression I have seen most of the time by powerlevelers. A few stick around but most move on to another game. Then they rinse and repeat what I just said.

    • 3237 posts
    June 4, 2017 10:30 PM PDT

    sunstalkr said:

    oneADseven said:

    Kargen said:

    OMG please no... This would detract highly from the entire social aspect of the game that Brad is working towards. He wants you to stop on occasion and chat with your group, talk about upcoming mobs, about lore, about anything but grinding speed..

    This game is meant to be an exploritory adventure game, not a korean grindfest..  Take your time, look around, jump off the side of a castle.. just because you can **cough kilsin cough**.

    If I am judged on my qualiifications in a group entirely by the hardcore nature and playstyle of my class, then the creativity and immersiveness is ruined for me. I want to play a palidan that heals instead of tanks, a druid that nukes instead of heals, a shaman that is allergic to dogs, a wizard with better 2hb skills than evocation, a rogue with high pick pocket. I want to try it all! not just what is best for an ideal group.

    Korean grindfest ... really?  FFXI basically wrote the book on class diversity.  If someone wanted to create a healing paladin, nuking redmage, or a wizard samurai they could, and there were actually scenarios in the game where they were viable!  XP chains did not prevent people from messing around and having fun ... it was just one feature ... it's not like it was the primary focus of the entire game.  It was actually a pretty minor feature in the grand scheme of things as should be evident by the amount of time it took someone to actually bring it up on this forum.  I don't think I've ever seen a worse reaction to an idea being shared than what I have seen here.  FFXI is legendary if we're talking about exploratory adventure games that allowed players to mix it up.  Their sub-class system was second to none.  The leveling phase in that game was absolutely amazing and I would be thrilled to see another game deliver half as much awesomeness.  The amount of ignorance I have seen on this thread could fuel a nuclear reactor.  Just let this idea die with some dignity and I'll make sure not to bring up another Japanese inspired idea again.  I had an easier time communicating with people using a language translator in that game than I do speaking plain English on here.  Yeah, lock of the week indeed.

    It seems like there is a bit of "greater than thou" going on meaning some ppl think they know better than others what is the right way to play a game. There is no right way. Its about fun remember? To me most of the ppl that are pushing the idea of the chain xp are also going to be the first ones to max level which is great for them. Big deal is what I say BUT then those same ppl will complain about there not being enough content and then quit the game if VR doesnt cater to their needs. I have seen that exact thing time and again so please dont tell me it wont happen or isnt true.

    This game is being made to be like EQ was when it first came out. There WERE no xp chains. IF Brad wants to make this game like EQ was with updates to some areas of course there wont be any xp chains. Personally I dont care one way or the other. I am just pointing out my own exp with ppl that level faster and in effect thats what you are saying/wanting with having xp chains. You want to be able to get more exp faster for what end result? To level faster. Get to end game content. Complain about lack of content. Leave the game when something isnt put in right away. Thats the progression I have seen most of the time by powerlevelers. A few stick around but most move on to another game. Then they rinse and repeat what I just said.

    Except it's not.  Per the second question in the FAQ:

    1.0.1 It sounds like Pantheon is bringing back a lot of ‘older’ MMO game mechanics. Is Pantheon a clone of older games or a modern MMO?

    "Pantheon is most definitely a modern MMO with modern graphics and new and exciting features and mechanics. There are already emulators out there that are clones of earlier MMOs and Visionary Realms has no desire to make another emulator. That said, we also feel that many of the features and mechanics of previous MMOs have been abandoned in more recent games, resulting in a less challenging, compelling, deep, and social experience. Pantheon, therefore, will indeed bring back some of these conventional mechanics and ideas but with a fresh perspective, some tweaks and revisions. We also understand that while gamers’ tastes don’t fundamentally change over time, their situations, lives, and responsibilities do. Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involved inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose those which make sense and are needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game."

    There are plenty of folks in this community who come from different backgrounds than just Everquest.  Regardless of what game we played, most of us are here for the same reason.  We want to play something that can captivate us how some of the earlier MMO's did.  It's been communicated by VR through the FAQ and many other platforms that Pantheon will not be an Everquest clone.  VR will be evolving the genre with Pantheon, and as noted in the snippet from above, they will be drawing upon the heritage of several games.  There has been a stigma associated with anything non-EQ on here for awhile, and it's truly unwarranted.

    Also referenced, "some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMO's involved inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay."  FFXI used XP Chains to combat the "downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay" issue that plagued some of the other MMO's of that era, and the results were absolutely amazing.  Finally, "Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back 'everything' from the old days, but rather to pick and choose those which make sense and are needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game."  That said, this post was essentially an effort to make a case that XP Chains (or something like them) should be considered as one of the features that can help make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game.

    They made the game more fun.  They added a layer of challenge that could only be overcome with cooperation and strategy.  There are many folks who have chimed in, suggesting that those in favor of XP Chains want nothing more out of them than to be able to level faster.  This has been rebutted several times.  XP Chains do not have to speed up the overall leveling process.  They could be used in such a way that could actually slow down the leveling process across the board, and then allow players to use cooperation to overcome the challenges they create, earning them valuable bonus XP all while having a bunch of fun doing it.  The end result is basically the same, plus or minus the bonus variable.  Calculate the ceiling of the variable and configure it into the overall curve and then adjust as necessary to create the desired floor.  The leveling process is still just as difficult (if not more, depending on what the expectation is) and the players are able to enjoy a fun and flavorful feature that offers a reward that is commensurate with the risk and challenge.

    I don't want XP chains so that I can hurry up to max level, beat the game, and then complain about a lack of content.  I want them for when I reroll through Progeny ten times because they are super effective in removing the boring and overly repetitive gameplay that is often associated with grinding.  I understand that I won't be able to convince everybody just how awesome they were, but please do keep in mind that I wasn't really trying to.  I asked if they were going to be considered for this game, and then asked for the thoughts/opinions of other people who actually used the system.  It appears that the overwhelming majority of FFXI players enjoyed this feature very much, and I appreciate having reminisced with some of them on here and through various other channels.  I understand that this is an open forum and that everybody wants to chime in with their thoughts, but please don't be surprised when I call someone out for a preconceived notion based on logical fallacy or biased historical preference.  I would prefer that this thread be locked already because the same "Not Made in EQ" diatribe keeps coming up.

    For the record, 75% of my gaming experience was in either EQOA, EQ2, or Vanguard.  I wouldn't even consider myself an FFXI veteran.  But I did play it back in the day and some of my favorite MMO memories of all time were from that game.  I am only speaking up on this matter because several people in the community have asked me to continue championing this cause.  There seems to be this community vibe going on that our input doesen't matter, or that the game is already complete and that these kind of conversations are nothing more than a distraction.  I appreciate all of the hard work that has gone into Pantheon, and I'm sure it will be my favorite game all-time with or without XP chains.  That said, I think we owe it to ourselves to leave no rock unturned and to explore every option available as it will ultimately put us in the best possible position for success.

    I know I have come off rather strongly on this thread and even defensive in many cases, and I do apologize for that.  Just please remember that Pantheon is the last hope for all of us when it comes to making MMO's great again.  That "hope" is a collective ownership shared by everybody and it's very important that our community is not segregated based on what someone played or why they are here.  VR will be looking to attract a wide audience, including a bunch of new-age gamers that have never seen anything like what we were so very fortunate to enjoy.  Final Fantasy is a pretty popular RPG franchise and I see no harm in promoting it as such and welcoming it as a part of the heritage that helped inspire this game.  There are many people out there who will be able to relate to that franchise with great memories and we need to stop with the negative connotations that are commonly associated with anything "Not Built in EQ."

    To put things in perspective, I full-heartedly believe that there is little to no chance of seeing XP Chains in Pantheon.  I believe the game has already come along too far in development for them to be seriously considered for implementation.  Despite that, it's still an interesting conversation and you never know what can happen.  It's possible this discussion has lead to some sort of tweaking, revision, or another idea in general that could make it's way in Pantheon.  Maybe not now, maybe not during testing, maybe not until years down the road, maybe not ever.  But the keyword is maybe.  Maybe VR already has something else planned that could completely negate this entire conversation?  How would I know?  Until I can get in the game to test it, I have nothing more to go off of than the limited information that has been made available.

    I don't want these creative ideas being shared to be misconstrued as a lack of faith in VR's ability or commitment to making a wonderful game.  I'm just bored waiting.  I choose to spend my time thinking about how awesome Pantheon is going to be rather than spending my time playing something else, and as an outspoken individual, I like to yap off a bit ... but it's always with the best of intentions.  Please don't think that I don't respect the opinions of others.  I appreciate this community in it's entirety and understand how an outlandish idea could be perceived as an unneccessary risk to our baby, but once again ... I'm just trying to do my part.  Some may get upset with me about that and that's okay, I can handle it.  But don't think that I truly believe that my ideas are fool-proof or that my perspective is any more significant than the next guy.  I just have passion to spare and until I am actually testing in pre-alpha, I'll continue to put my best foot forward and make an effort to contribute on this forum and it's successor.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 4, 2017 10:32 PM PDT
    • 151 posts
    June 5, 2017 8:44 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    Biggest issue I see throughout this is entire thread has been citation of tenets on both sides. Read the tenets and perform mental gymnastics to find a way that they agree with your already formed opinions about how things should be, giving the illusion that the tenets actually aligned completely with you in the first place.

    There are other systems in reality that operate based on tenets and they seem to have this same phenomenon. Weird. Not the place for that discussion, though.

    I'm not ashamed to say I was a fan of the idea. Tenet waving is not arguing a system based on its merits, it's just muddying the waters. Pretty much all of these discussions are pointless and can be summed up by "I hope the devs agree with my specific mental model of what the tenets represent".

    I don't have the patience for that.

    Indeed.  As I mentioned previously, I'm actually opposed to adding the chaining feature to this game, but I gave my reason why.  Some of these reasons to oppose it that I'm seeing posted are just eye-rollingly bad and ridiculous stretches.  I'm surprised we haven't been told that chaining mobs lets the terrorists win.

    Anyway, heels are dug in and people won't change their opinions because gut reactions rule all for most people which gives us confirmation bias and all that.  It's easier for me to look past it since I'm actually opposed to this idea, but I can fully understand AD's frustration at some of the more ridiculous posts on here stretching very awkwardly to find ways this breaks every tenet of Pantheon imaginable.  In spite of what some believe, it was a good topic to bring up and I found it interesting as it was something I hadn't heard of since I never played FF11.

    • 151 posts
    June 5, 2017 12:47 PM PDT

    Searril said:

    Liav said:

    Biggest issue I see throughout this is entire thread has been citation of tenets on both sides. Read the tenets and perform mental gymnastics to find a way that they agree with your already formed opinions about how things should be, giving the illusion that the tenets actually aligned completely with you in the first place.

    There are other systems in reality that operate based on tenets and they seem to have this same phenomenon. Weird. Not the place for that discussion, though.

    I'm not ashamed to say I was a fan of the idea. Tenet waving is not arguing a system based on its merits, it's just muddying the waters. Pretty much all of these discussions are pointless and can be summed up by "I hope the devs agree with my specific mental model of what the tenets represent".

    I don't have the patience for that.

    Indeed.  As I mentioned previously, I'm actually opposed to adding the chaining feature to this game, but I gave my reason why.  Some of these reasons to oppose it that I'm seeing posted are just eye-rollingly bad and ridiculous stretches.  I'm surprised we haven't been told that chaining mobs lets the terrorists win.

    Anyway, heels are dug in and people won't change their opinions because gut reactions rule all for most people which gives us confirmation bias and all that.  It's easier for me to look past it since I'm actually opposed to this idea, but I can fully understand AD's frustration at some of the more ridiculous posts on here stretching very awkwardly to find ways this breaks every tenet of Pantheon imaginable.  In spite of what some believe, it was a good topic to bring up and I found it interesting as it was something I hadn't heard of since I never played FF11.

     

    I agree.  It seems some folks are leveling up their tolling skill. 187 keeps walking into like a drunk farmer into the barn door because he is so passionate about this project.

    • 1303 posts
    June 5, 2017 1:50 PM PDT

    Maximis said:

    I agree.  It seems some folks are leveling up their tolling skill. 187 keeps walking into like a drunk farmer into the barn door because he is so passionate about this project.

    Hehehe great visual. 

    It's worth it to point out the sentiment goes both ways though. By that I mean that people who passionately oppose a concept do so because they are equally passionate of the project as the presenter. 

    • 1778 posts
    June 5, 2017 2:03 PM PDT
    Perhaps we could warm folks up to the idea if we added chilie cheese fries instead of xp bounus? Or maybe we could have it be a cool mount? Like the Sharknado......only with laser beams and mind bullets.
    • 94 posts
    June 5, 2017 7:24 PM PDT

    Based on what I have seen and read the game is meant for ppl that want a CHALLENGE. not something handed to them on a silver plater. They have already said they will water the game down by not having level loss with dying. So now ppl also want another way to get exp to hurry up the leveling curve. There was no xp chain like i said in EQ and there doesnt need to be one in this game as far as I'm concerned BUT it wont kill it for me if they include it. Why? Because I am not a powerleveler/powergamer. I have NEVER felt the need to say, WOOT I was 1st to max level, as it gets me zilch, nada in RL. I guess its like ppl that need a trophy for finishing last to make them feel better.

    Question for you oneADseven. How much faster do you think you will level just because you just pull mobs faster and prob play more?

    2nd question for you. EQ2 had chains but they just gave buffs which could make fights shorter and in effect give more exp BECAUSE you got more fights in faster. Would you say that is the same thing as an xp chain? Reason I ask is i also never played final fantasy so cant comment on it.

     

    • 3237 posts
    June 5, 2017 7:41 PM PDT

    sunstalkr said:

    Based on what I have seen and read the game is meant for ppl that want a CHALLENGE. not something handed to them on a silver plater. They have already said they will water the game down by not having level loss with dying. So now ppl also want another way to get exp to hurry up the leveling curve. There was no xp chain like i said in EQ and there doesnt need to be one in this game as far as I'm concerned BUT it wont kill it for me if they include it. Why? Because I am not a powerleveler/powergamer. I have NEVER felt the need to say, WOOT I was 1st to max level, as it gets me zilch, nada in RL. I guess its like ppl that need a trophy for finishing last to make them feel better.

    Question for you oneADseven. How much faster do you think you will level just because you just pull mobs faster and prob play more?

    2nd question for you. EQ2 had chains but they just gave buffs which could make fights shorter and in effect give more exp BECAUSE you got more fights in faster. Would you say that is the same thing as an xp chain? Reason I ask is i also never played final fantasy so cant comment on it.

     

    EQ2 didn't have XP chains.  They used heroic opportunities.  Here is how the heroic opportunity is described per the EQ2 Fandom Wiki:

    "Opportunities begin when a group member uses their starter ability, then members of the group advance the starter chain to pick a table to roll an effect from, then advance the finishing chain to trigger the effect. Advancing chains is done by using spells and combat arts with particular opportunity symbols and sometimes in particular orders. The opportunity system uses symbols/icons which can be found in most spell and combat art examination windows as the second icon down on the right side. When the opportunity ring flashes a particular symbol, any spell or combat art that is represented by that symbol can be used to choose that option (for starter chains) or fulfill that requirement (for finishing chains). Valid abilities will flash on players' hotbars as well. Abilities that are used to advance the chain also cause their normal effects."

    Here is how an XP chain from FFXI is described per the FFXI Wiki:

    "Also known as an "EXP Chain" or simply "Chain", this term is used to describe the acquisition of an increased number of experience points from a monster's death due to the speed in which the monsters were killed. The bonus is obtained by defeating monsters that check as Even Match or tougher (EM+) within a time limit that starts when the last EM+ mob is killed. The percentage bonus earned increases as the chain becomes longer; however, a chain will be broken by failing to defeat an EM+ mob before the time allowance expires. Simply defeating a monster below Even Match will not break a chain (example: Beastmaster mob's pet), as long as the EM+ is killed within the allowed time, based on the last eligible kill. In party settings, bonuses are based on each individual member's level, so it is possible for mobs that check EM to lower level members to give experience chains, while the same mob will check Decent Challenge to a higher level member and not give a chain. The maximum experience bonus is 50%."

    Sorry, answering your questions in reverse order.  I'm not sure how to answer the first question.  How much faster, relative to what?  I'm not sure what my play-time has to do with XP chains.

    I'm going to paste an excerpt from my last post as it touches on several of your comments:

    "They made the game more fun.  They added a layer of challenge that could only be overcome with cooperation and strategy.  There are many folks who have chimed in, suggesting that those in favor of XP Chains want nothing more out of them than to be able to level faster.  This has been rebutted several times.  XP Chains do not have to speed up the overall leveling process.  They could be used in such a way that could actually slow down the leveling process across the board, and then allow players to use cooperation to overcome the challenges they create, earning them valuable bonus XP all while having a bunch of fun doing it.  The end result is basically the same, plus or minus the bonus variable.  Calculate the ceiling of the variable and configure it into the overall curve and then adjust as necessary to create the desired floor.  The leveling process is still just as difficult (if not more, depending on what the expectation is) and the players are able to enjoy a fun and flavorful feature that offers a reward that is commensurate with the risk and challenge."


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 5, 2017 7:48 PM PDT
    • 279 posts
    June 5, 2017 7:50 PM PDT

    All they would have to do is balance the XP rate around what an average party would do (they would get chains as well).

    At the end of day with or without chains the devs dictate roughly the amount of time it takes to get to 50 or 60 or whatever as a cap.

    The amount of time it takes 1ad7 to get to cap will be no different with or without chains. However, getting consecutive chains can be motivational, help pull you back into the game and make you on a personal AL level feel more invested in the success or failure of a group.

    ITs more about positive player feedback than it is about alleviating time constraints to hit cap.

    • 3237 posts
    June 5, 2017 8:15 PM PDT

    Sunmistress said:

    All they would have to do is balance the XP rate around what an average party would do (they would get chains as well).

    At the end of day with or without chains the devs dictate roughly the amount of time it takes to get to 50 or 60 or whatever as a cap.

    The amount of time it takes 1ad7 to get to cap will be no different with or without chains. However, getting consecutive chains can be motivational, help pull you back into the game and make you on a personal AL level feel more invested in the success or failure of a group.

    ITs more about positive player feedback than it is about alleviating time constraints to hit cap.

    The chains could have an impact on how fast we level, but not what VR establishes as the minimum baseline, or floor.  XP chains are essentially a feature that provide strategic windows of opportunity that reward players who are able to demonstrate exceptional teamwork, coordination, and combat awareness to overcome them.  Nothing is given, everything is earned.  The minimum time to achieve max level can increase as a result of their implementation, but they would allow players to use tact and skill to narrow the gap.  They definitely pull you into the game, keep you engaged, and allow all members to have an enhanced impact on the success rate of the group.  They serve as an excellent method to combat the repetitive type of gameplay that is often associated with grinding.  I would recommend that anybody in the community who has not used them personally to reach out to a former FFXI player and gauge their input.  They were a well loved feature in a hardcore MMO that many have compared to EQ1.

    • 175 posts
    June 5, 2017 8:38 PM PDT

    sunstalkr said:

    ... They have already said they will water the game down by not having level loss with dying.

    This is still open to decision. They've said they won't make a final decision on the death penalty until probably well into beta. They want to get lots of testing info on it before they make any firm decisions. Expect it to vary a bit during testing to get some real feedback.

    sunstalkr said:

    ... So now ppl also want another way to get exp to hurry up the leveling curve...

    I think the xp-chaining is meant more as an idea to help with the monotony of combat and to encourage better team play (i.e. faster pulls/kills require better team mechanics, etc.). Personally, if combat is that monotonous, they need to add something more to the combat itself.

    Same with the team play. I'd love to have some truly interactive skills/mechanics, but something that is more visual and less "I see the debuff, let me hit my skill." It would for sure take some effort. This is where I think dispositions are going in sort of a reverse manner. Instead of focusing on your team mates so much, you have to react to the mob behaving in different ways which could require some coordinated skill usage in the end.

    sunstalkr said:

    2nd question for you. EQ2 had chains but they just gave buffs which could make fights shorter and in effect give more exp BECAUSE you got more fights in faster. Would you say that is the same thing as an xp chain? Reason I ask is i also never played final fantasy so cant comment on it. 

    Many games were supposed to have extensive skill interactions but they all ended up just some simple mechanic like the EQ2 skill chains. To be fair, each of those mechanics (GW2 has combo effects, LOTRO has fellowship maneuvers, VG used the weakness system, etc.) requires group coordination and does affect the speed of combat and hence the speed of levelling.

    Xp-chaining accomplishes the same thing through giving you a bonus to each mob killed within a time period. The more kills, the more the bonus and the more the time decreases. Both FFXI and FFXIV have this. Not quite as prominent in FFXIV as there are better ways to get xp than mob kills (at least while levelling to 50).

    In the end, I'm not a fan of any system of such to date as they feel more like some tacked on feature someone put together over the weekend and doesn't address the real problem as stated above.


    This post was edited by Archaen at June 5, 2017 8:39 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    June 5, 2017 8:49 PM PDT

    Heroic opportunities were basically a dud in EQ2.  They weren't engaging at all.  It was just a matter of hitting abilities when they were flashing on your screen.  It felt very dumbed down in the sense that they couldn't be used strategically.  They were basically an RNG freebie buff if you could click flashing buttons.  XP chains on the other hand were nothing like any chaining system I have seen in any other game.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 5, 2017 8:49 PM PDT
    • 2130 posts
    June 5, 2017 11:40 PM PDT

    I just don't understand why people keep citing skill chains as if it has anything to do with XP chains.

    I might as well post pictures of chain armor for the relevance it has to the topic at hand.


    This post was edited by Liav at June 5, 2017 11:40 PM PDT
    • 279 posts
    June 6, 2017 10:32 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Sunmistress said:

    All they would have to do is balance the XP rate around what an average party would do (they would get chains as well).

    At the end of day with or without chains the devs dictate roughly the amount of time it takes to get to 50 or 60 or whatever as a cap.

    The amount of time it takes 1ad7 to get to cap will be no different with or without chains. However, getting consecutive chains can be motivational, help pull you back into the game and make you on a personal AL level feel more invested in the success or failure of a group.

    ITs more about positive player feedback than it is about alleviating time constraints to hit cap.

    The chains could have an impact on how fast we level, but not what VR establishes as the minimum baseline, or floor.  XP chains are essentially a feature that provide strategic windows of opportunity that reward players who are able to demonstrate exceptional teamwork, coordination, and combat awareness to overcome them.  Nothing is given, everything is earned.  The minimum time to achieve max level can increase as a result of their implementation, but they would allow players to use tact and skill to narrow the gap.  They definitely pull you into the game, keep you engaged, and allow all members to have an enhanced impact on the success rate of the group.  They serve as an excellent method to combat the repetitive type of gameplay that is often associated with grinding.  I would recommend that anybody in the community who has not used them personally to reach out to a former FFXI player and gauge their input.  They were a well loved feature in a hardcore MMO that many have compared to EQ1.

    The existence or lack would not functionally affect the rate of players that usually zip through content, unless there is a major aspect of emergent gameplay the devs overlook (EQ charm or as launched spinstun as my examples) is what I should have said.

    • 94 posts
    June 6, 2017 8:20 PM PDT

    Liav said:

    I just don't understand why people keep citing skill chains as if it has anything to do with XP chains.

    I might as well post pictures of chain armor for the relevance it has to the topic at hand.

    I honestly dont know how you cant understand that an xp chain IS bonus exp. IF the chain wasnt there would you get the same exp? Obviously no ergo the name xp chain.

    • 94 posts
    June 6, 2017 8:33 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Heroic opportunities were basically a dud in EQ2.  They weren't engaging at all.  It was just a matter of hitting abilities when they were flashing on your screen.  It felt very dumbed down in the sense that they couldn't be used strategically.  They were basically an RNG freebie buff if you could click flashing buttons.  XP chains on the other hand were nothing like any chaining system I have seen in any other game.

    We did them at times just to try them out and see if we could actually get them done, some were impossible if you didnt have the right class, and what they did. As you said they didnt change our play style and we never went out of our way to use them. I honestly never knew anybody who did but that doesnt mean they werent out there. As to the xp chains no matter how you want to wrap it or sugarcoat it its extra exp for killing the same mob other ppl kill without the chain. As I said I dont care if they were in the game or not BUT like I said before IF they were significant enuf exp to make them relevant then whoever does them on a regular basis SHOULD level faster which is what those ppl want or they wouldnt be so adamant about it. I understand about having fun in a game. Its why we all play them but honestly I always had fun, even on deaths in eq, as you had the corpse retrieval which in some places was more exciting than the actual fights in that location. Hate was one heh. 

    The game was fun enuf as it was and you always had to watch for everything in case of trains etc. What I can see with these chains is ppl camping the same spot over and over because they know its full of blues and greens, which you can kill faster than even or yellow cons, then doing it till you outlevel that area. Then move to the next area and rinse and repeat. To me it seems like that would become boring doing the same thing over and over. I know for myself pulling the same mobs to level up for hours can get very boring and I dont see that xp chains would do anything to alleviate that except give you more exp than the next guy who does the exact same thing but doesnt care about the xp so levels more slowly. I think some ppl here believe that because ppl dont want xp chains it means they cant do them as well as those who are adamant about them. There are plenty of ppl who are good enuf gamers I am sure than can do them as well as the next guy but just dont care. They would rather play the game and enjoy the ride. Instead of a quarter mile drag race they are in it for the long haul like a marathon. Plenty of ppl that WERE power gamers that dont have the time to play as much now are examples of ppl who I think would be just as good but just dont care.  Its about life choices and like i said earlier, all I see are those ppl who get to max in a short time as not having anything to do then moving on. I guess we shall see.

    btw if the progeny system doesnt give you a bang for your buck I am betting those that level to max, then try out that system, will quit and move on. Some ppl are just never happy OR always want to see what the next game brings.


    This post was edited by sunstalkr at June 6, 2017 8:41 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    June 6, 2017 9:07 PM PDT

    First rule of XP Chains, they only work on even con or higher mobs.

    • 2130 posts
    June 7, 2017 4:29 AM PDT

    sunstalkr said:

    Liav said:

    I just don't understand why people keep citing skill chains as if it has anything to do with XP chains.

    I might as well post pictures of chain armor for the relevance it has to the topic at hand.

    I honestly dont know how you cant understand that an xp chain IS bonus exp. IF the chain wasnt there would you get the same exp? Obviously no ergo the name xp chain.

    We're not even talking about the same thing.

    Pressing buttons in a specific order to unlock an additional effect is not an XP chain, it's a skill chain, and it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread despite the fact that I've seen it cited several times, often as an argument against the mechanic.

    They are literally, fundamentally different things.