A rather very long wall of text debate, and when someone suggests they have a difference of opinion your quick to jump on that. Be a little less critical on others people, they have reasons for disliking some systems of old.
I was going to repond but got offended by some that clearly are just pushing there weights around forcing something down someones throat.
Oh well next topic i guess.
If you read the beginning of page 10 you'll see that it was Krixus jumping on Hackerssuck for having a "different opinion" where he was open to the idea. The response was a backlash that said quite plainly that the feature isn't needed, is garbage, crappy, fake, contrived, blah blah blah, yet the explanation given as to why it was all of those things was based on a completely different and unrelated feature. The reality is that there are a lot of people who won't post on this thread (anymore) because of the consistent derailment and head in the sand mentality. It's been stated countless times that XP chains are not the same thing as skill chains but the comparison continues to be made and defended.
As far as my response to Kaen, I only attempted to explain (in detail) that the pain points he brought up had already been discussed at length (on almost every previous page) and that they weren't actually issues at all. If I offended him in any way, I would be more than happy to apologize. I like Kaen. I have had several good conversations with him on other threads and seeing that he was on the fence about the idea I was willing to go out of my way to explain how the feature actually worked. Either way, I really wish this thread would get locked already. It was a failed experiment, and an embarassment. I take full ownership for anything I may have contributed toward that end. RIP XP Chains.
IMO the mechanic sounds interesting and would probably support the games tenets well. I hope however that truly continuous killing will be impossible due to limitations in mana/stamina regeneration, because that's something I believe many of us are also looking forward to: A more relaxed style of playing that allows (or better, enforces) breaks for conversation etc, instead of non-stop killing.
Liav said:If 1999 EQ launched with bonus XP for consecutive kills and an across the board 25% reduction in base XP to compensate, a lot of people would be praising how amazing it was and how it should definitely be a thing in Pantheon, because it's a "hardcore" mechanic that rewards skilled players over those darn instant gratification/participation trophy/millennial/gold star kids who play modern video games.
I'm clearly being a little over the top but I'm also being fairly serious.
My favorite quote from this thread.
oneADseven said:Just so you know Kayn, XP chains did not make XP'ing faster. That point has been refuted probably a dozen times on the earlier pages of this thread. The amount of time it takes to get to level cap is relative ... the design team could literally design it to be as fast or slow as they want, with or without XP chains. Implementing XP Chains basically rewards good behavior. One thing I have seen a lot of over the years is players saying that they have plenty of "skill" but not enough "time" -- XP chains are a good thing for those kind of players. Either way, let's use this hypothetical.
XP Chains do not exist, and the dev team designs a leveling curve that should take, on average, 1,000 hours to get to cap.
XP Chains do exist, and the dev team designs a leveling curve that should take, on average, 1,000 hours to get to cap for those who consistently utilize XP chains, or 1,200-1,300 hours for those who do not.
It doesn't speed leveling up in a vacuum. It adds fun and flavor to the grind because it gives you something to think about every time you pull a mob. A lot of people use the argument that they don't want to play a game that heavily influences them to play a certain way. Okay, so what about a really dangerous world that heavily influences you to play carfeul? How about a really social world that heavily influences you to go out and make friends? For some reason I think players seem to enjoy mechanics (or the lack of) that do indeed influence certain outcomes. XP chains influenced strategy, teamwork, and coordination. They also influenced socialization, and for players to help each other. I saw a comment on the reddit thread that players wouldn't tolerate people who didn't know how to chain in their groups. I found the opposite to be true.
The reason why is because the participation of every member in the group (especially from a teamwork perspective) directly influenced the overall productivity moreso than you see in your average MMO. Getting to a camp and setting up a group took time. Players had a vested interest in helping others. I had veteran Japanese players teaching me how to execute chains (using a generic language translator tool) when I was a total newb in the single digit level range and with crap gear and no sub-class. If people are jerks, judgmental, or unhelpful ... that's a player problem, not a game problem. XP Chains influenced players to help each other out, make lasting friendships ... and communicate. All of these things have been identified as important for Pantheon and that's why I think the feature would be a potentially good fit. Players had more of an incentive to properly strategize their session, donate food/drink, armor, weapons, or even explain some of the more intricate tricks to new players that only veteran players would know.
As far as the feature being immersion breaking, it definitely wasn't a huge flashing alert that popped up on your screen with capital letters. You saw a small timer window. It doesn't have to be any more intrusive than a clock that tells you the time of day. If someone wanted to, you could even turn it into a small hour glass icon where sand slowly starts fading away.
I will admit that the XP Chain feature did create a sense of urgency, but it didn't trump the fear of danger. It just gave you another element to think about. Pulling was more satisfying. Managing resources felt more rewarding if you managed to get to a chain of 5 after several chains of 4. At the end of the day, it was a tool that improved the efficiency of the average player. I don't see that as a bad thing. If we want a challenging game, there is nothing wrong with implementing a feature that allows a level of risk vs reward that would otherwise not be present. That's really all the feature was ... an ever present risk vs reward mechanism that encouraged emergent gameplay tactics and next level teamwork.Rather than looking at this feature as something that contributes to bottlenecks, why not consider another angle? When a feature like this exists, players could actually make better use of a less-than-ideal camp by properly strategizing their pulls. From what I remember in playing, there were definitely certain camps that were better than others(this will be true with or without the feature), but even moving around as a group would still fetch you a pretty good amount of XP if you were pulling off chains. Rather than groups just gobbling up every possible mob they could find and contributing to "more competition" they would be a little bit more selective with what they pulled, and when they pulled. They would generally leave the weaker mobs in an area to a lower level group because they wouldn't help with their chain. I could go on and on. The feature was amazing.
oneADseven said:
As far as my response to Kaen, I only attempted to explain (in detail) that the pain points he brought up had already been discussed at length (on almost every previous page) and that they weren't actually issues at all. If I offended him in any way, I would be more than happy to apologize. I like Kaen. I have had several good conversations with him on other threads and seeing that he was on the fence about the idea I was willing to go out of my way to explain how the feature actually worked. Either way, I really wish this thread would get locked already. It was a failed experiment, and an embarassment. I take full ownership for anything I may have contributed toward that end. RIP XP Chains.
Haha, no worries. I'm always open to civil discussions, and I found your explanation to be enlighening. No offense taken.
@Kaen -- You make a great point about efficiency, especially as it pertains to boxing. This feature would definitely compliment the following excerpt from the FAQ:
10.4 Will multi-boxing be allowed in Pantheon?
Our reaction to multi-boxing is to try something first before we even entertain the idea of artificially restricting it. We want to make combat, especially mid and higher level combat, so tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive and the timing of many abilities crucial, that multi-boxing is extremely difficult if not impossible and likely far inferior to having an actual real person in your group.
Your last point also has plenty of merit, but when you think about it, it also reinforces the above. In a truly challenging game, most players will want people in their groups who are paying attention, playing tactically and responsively, etc. I don't remember multi-boxing being an issue at all in FFXI and a lot of that was due to how tactically intense the standard combat was. The timing and coordination that was required to execute chains was very engaging and demanding. The best effect of all, IMO, was how well this feature combated the monotony of grinding. It allowed grinding to feel fun and rewarding in ways that no other game I have ever played has been able to do. Like you said, some people will throw tantrums no matter what.
On the other side of the coin, some people will naturally go out of their way to help others. I found myself experiencing the latter, on both the giving and receiving end, very consistently in that game. This game didn't suffer from the woes of dungeon-finder syndrome where players were treated as a commodity. If you had someone in your group, it was worth spending your time (and resources) to help them achieve their highest potential. Anyway, I'm glad you were able to give the idea another look. I would still love the system if there was no actual timer on screen ... hell, I might even like it better!
From what I can remember in FFXI, they used an XP curve that was quite a bit different from what I have seen in other MMO's. Rather than NPC's having a flat value that scaled as they grew in level, the XP was based on the level disparity between the NPC and the total level of the group engaging it. From what I can recall, the maximum amount of XP awarded for any single creature was 300 prior to any XP chain bonus being factored in. Rather than balancing a scaling attribute for both XP awarded for a kill and XP required to level, the only part that scaled was the XP required to level.
For example, at level 10, the most XP you could possibly gain for any challenging fight was 300. Let's assume the amount of XP required to level from 10-11 was 18,000. Now let's assume that you are level 20. The most XP you could possibly gain for any challenging fight was still 300, but the requirement for going from 20-21 was somewhere around 48,000. The higher your level, the wider the gap would grow. Leveling from 30-31 might have required 124,000 XP. I don't remember the exact figures but I do remember there being a very consistent sense of XP gained throughout the entire game.
It's been a long time since I played but for whatever reason, I really did enjoy the consistency. There were still over-cons and under-cons just like you would see in Everquest. The XP chain mechanic was used to great effect as it allowed players to influence their XP gain with strategy. You could analyze a room and formulate a plan based on what was available. You would usually try to save the most difficult mobs for the end of the chain in order to maximize the bonus. For each additional link in the chain, the bonus would scale. I think it was 10% per link up to 50% maximum.
The risk vs reward implications were something that definitely had to be considered. The idea of saving the most powerful NPC's for last to maximize a bonus may sound like a simple strategy but you have to remember that when you get to this stage of the chain, your resources are probably low. Engaging the most powerful NPC in the area poses it's own risk but doing it while you're low on resources and working within a limited window of opportunity felt like a work of art. A lot of folks have mentioned that being efficient is the same thing with or without chains but I would argue that there is a higher skill cap when you add these other variables to the equation and that played a big role in why the grind ultimately felt more fun, challenging, and risk vs reward oriented.
Was interesting reading the various comments for this thread...some more constructive than others. First let me state that a) Im an old EQ player b) I did play FFXI but not for very long In one of the early posts on this thread someone mentioned that XP Chaining naturally lead to group members being kicked if they were not keeping up/maximizing the groups Chaining/XP gain...which on face value seems to be at odds with one of the core values of Pantheon....and that is community. I understand that there is always a degree of natural selection in any mmo community, but I would generally argue that we should push for challenging mechanics that increase fun, while not negatively impacting player interactions/community. Chaining may be challenging/fun...but it negatively impacts group play/player interaction...see comment above + impacts chatting/interaction since it places emphasis on speed. The difficulty of the game overall will be the greatest selection agent/quality control ....if someone has reached a given lvl they should have attained a certain degree of skill...if Pantheon is what the developers are saying it will be. I would rather see mechanics that promote group cohesion and interaction. While xp bonuses for grouping is simplistic, it seems to do more to promote the values and design philosophy of Pantheon.
I am of the mindset that XP chains reinforce community in the sense that players would have a vested interest in helping one another. I think it's important to keep in mind that there was still downtime in FFXI. It's not like groups were just constantly chain pulling and not communicating. You had to communicate if you wanted to pull off the higher chains. Speed was a factor but it's not like players were forced to focus on button mashing more than actual performance. The idea behind it was to get players communicating and coordinated to the point where they could perform at the highest level possible. If there is room for improvement, it's worth spending some extra time working out the kinks for the next chain attempt. Even if you were already playing at a high level, downtime was consistent, and tactical. When I played FFXI, it was on a console. We didn't have voice chat. I used a translator tool with mostly Japanese players to learn the ropes and coordinate and it worked out fine ... that should say something. Without XP chains, I don't think we would have had that same incentive to try and coordinate things. XP chains encouraged team play rather than detracting from it.
I did mention the emphasis on speed, but you could say the same thing about healing. If you are fighting something that hits really hard, speed is a consideration with how fast you cure debuffs, heal other players, taunt mobs off of other players, CC adds, etc. It was another layer on top of all those things. For me, it seemed to be more about efficiency than actual speed. If speed was the primary factor groups would just pull anything/everything as fast as possible. That isn't how it worked. Managing cooldowns, being selective with what/when you pull, and plenty of other things were on the table. My understanding of Pantheon isn't that they just want to slap people together and call it a social experience. I always thought the idea was to creating challenging content where risk vs reward is ever present, and then use the kind of cooperative gameplay that can only be had in an MMO as the glue that keeps everything together. XP chains worked like a charm in that regard. FFXI had the best grind of any game out there and a large part of that was due to the emphasis on consistent strategy and tactical gameplay.
Rather than thinking that they detract from community, I think players should consider how they actually add to the value of playing with others. If anything, they make boxed accounts less than ideal. I like to think that the majority of players have a higher attention span and quicker reaction speed than what can be achieved from a single person boxing multiple accounts. Players, and their ability to communicate/coordinate were the most precious resource in the FFXI world. When it comes to combat in Pantheon, I like to look at the quote where I referenced multi-boxing from the FAQ. The goal is to have so much going on that having a boxed account in group would be inferior to a real person. XP chains compliment that excerpt in so many ways. The argument that they take away from community does not resonate with me at all. I managed to communicate at a high level using a language translator and a controller. I am confident that they could be used to great effect in a next gen MMO that may end up having a built-in voice client. I know not everybody is going to agree but whenever I see comments that suggest that this kind of feature goes against the design philosophy of the game I can't help but shake my head. Challenging gameplay and risk vs reward are also a part of the design philosophy.
oneADseven said:Liav said:If 1999 EQ launched with bonus XP for consecutive kills and an across the board 25% reduction in base XP to compensate, a lot of people would be praising how amazing it was and how it should definitely be a thing in Pantheon, because it's a "hardcore" mechanic that rewards skilled players over those darn instant gratification/participation trophy/millennial/gold star kids who play modern video games.
I'm clearly being a little over the top but I'm also being fairly serious.
My favorite quote from this thread.
Why, because it's complete nonsense?
oneADseven said:I am of the mindset that XP chains reinforce community in the sense that players would have a vested interest in helping one another. I think it's important to keep in mind that there was still downtime in FFXI. It's not like groups were just constantly chain pulling and not communicating. You had to communicate if you wanted to pull off the higher chains. Speed was a factor but it's not like players were forced to focus on button mashing more than actual performance. The idea behind it was to get players communicating and coordinated to the point where they could perform at the highest level possible. If there is room for improvement, it's worth spending some extra time working out the kinks for the next chain attempt. Even if you were already playing at a high level, downtime was consistent, and tactical. When I played FFXI, it was on a console. We didn't have voice chat. I used a translator tool with mostly Japanese players to learn the ropes and coordinate and it worked out fine ... that should say something. Without XP chains, I don't think we would have had that same incentive to try and coordinate things. XP chains encouraged team play rather than detracting from it.
I did mention the emphasis on speed, but you could say the same thing about healing. If you are fighting something that hits really hard, speed is a consideration with how fast you cure debuffs, heal other players, taunt mobs off of other players, CC adds, etc. It was another layer on top of all those things. For me, it seemed to be more about efficiency than actual speed. If speed was the primary factor groups would just pull anything/everything as fast as possible. That isn't how it worked. Managing cooldowns, being selective with what/when you pull, and plenty of other things were on the table. My understanding of Pantheon isn't that they just want to slap people together and call it a social experience. I always thought the idea was to creating challenging content where risk vs reward is ever present, and then use the kind of cooperative gameplay that can only be had in an MMO as the glue that keeps everything together. XP chains worked like a charm in that regard. FFXI had the best grind of any game out there and a large part of that was due to the emphasis on consistent strategy and tactical gameplay.
Rather than thinking that they detract from community, I think players should consider how they actually add to the value of playing with others. If anything, they make boxed accounts less than ideal. I like to think that the majority of players have a higher attention span and quicker reaction speed than what can be achieved from a single person boxing multiple accounts. Players, and their ability to communicate/coordinate were the most precious resource in the FFXI world. When it comes to combat in Pantheon, I like to look at the quote where I referenced multi-boxing from the FAQ. The goal is to have so much going on that having a boxed account in group would be inferior to a real person. XP chains compliment that excerpt in so many ways. The argument that they take away from community does not resonate with me at all. I managed to communicate at a high level using a language translator and a controller. I am confident that they could be used to great effect in a next gen MMO that may end up having a built-in voice client. I know not everybody is going to agree but whenever I see comments that suggest that this kind of feature goes against the design philosophy of the game I can't help but shake my head. Challenging gameplay and risk vs reward are also a part of the design philosophy.
Everything you define can be done with normal gameplay without the need for some kind of fake "exp chain". People who are better communicators, know their own class AND every other class the best, know the zones and the mechanics of the game will have skill and knowledge and execution based advantage, wihtout, yes, a fake mechanic that serves no purpose that the game itself can't already fulfill.
Krixus said:Why, because it's complete nonsense?
etc.
I agree with you, If EQ had xp chaining all sorts of things about it could have been different, including it not getting the fan base it has at all.
Still though the tone of this thread is already negative enough man, lets be respectful here=).
Krixus said:oneADseven said:SNIP
Everything you define can be done with normal gameplay without the need for some kind of fake "exp chain". People who are better communicators, know their own class AND every other class the best, know the zones and the mechanics of the game will have skill and knowledge and execution based advantage, wihtout, yes, a fake mechanic that serves no purpose that the game itself can't already fulfill.
I understand that you like to keep things simple. Some people enjoy depth. I think repeatedly calling a feature fake, contrived, crappy or garbage is out of line if you don't have real experience with it. You had a very similar stance on the acclimaton thread. You are entitled to your opinion to not like something but you should make an effort to not derail the thread. You told Hackerssuck that part of his argument was short sighted and responded with a counter argument against skill chains. Let's take a look at some of the previous comments on this thread that you seem to have missed:
"Not referring to skill chains."
"For the record, XP chains are completely different than skill chains."
"You mention that prior games tried skill chaining and that it was underwhelming. Okay, this isn't skill-chaining."
"I just don't understand why people keep citing skill chains as if it has anything to do with XP chains.
I might as well post pictures of chain armor for the relevance it has to the topic at hand."
"We're not even talking about the same thing.
Pressing buttons in a specific order to unlock an additional effect is not an XP chain, it's a skill chain, and it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread despite the fact that I've seen it cited several times, often as an argument against the mechanic.
They are literally, fundamentally different things."
"Skill chains and XP chains are more different than alike despite the fact that they fulfill a small amount of the same criteria."
"This is entirely ignoring the fact that numerous posts in this thread express outright confusion about what an XP chain is to begin with, then proceeds to criticize something like Heroic Opportunities from EQ2. If that isn't derailing, I don't know what is."
"As someone who has used both XP/Skill chains extensively, I can tell you that they are nothing alike."
"XP chains on the other hand were nothing like any chaining system I have seen in any other game."
"With skill chains, you would essentially hit a flashing button. With XP chains, you could do whatever you wanted."
"You would never see a message on your screen that required you to use a "boot" attack for tanks, a "coin" attack for scouts, a "hammer" attack for healers, etc."
"EQ2 didn't have XP chains. They used heroic opportunities.
Here is how the heroic opportunity is described per the EQ2 Fandom Wiki: (SNIP)
Here is how an XP chain from FFXI is described per the FFXI Wiki: (SNIP)"
Things have been spelled out ad nauseam. Seeing you call someone else short sighted while simultaneously derailing the thread that several people have made a valiant effort to keep on track is enough for me to question your motives and willingness to rationalize. It's impossible for a new person to read the thread and enjoy any kind of consistent on-topic dialogue when this continues to happen. I'm sorry that you don't see value in the feature. I hope there are other topics that will better resonate with you.
oneADseven said:Snip
Apparantly calling someone short sighted is bad, but calling someone's serious post "a good laugh" isn't.
Again I may need to remind you that your posts can look every bit as ridiculous/rude to the guys on the other side of the table, as their posts look to you.
I'll say it as many times at it takes; the similarity/difference between skill chains and kill chains IS dictated by debatable opinions. Your assertions that they are highly different are no more valid than assertions that they are highly similar.
My personal feelings eb towards "highly similar". The only significant difference I see between the two is that kill chaining takes place over multiple battles and skill chaining usually takes place over one. Meaning that skill chaining is very slightly preferable (but still not a great idea imho).At least it will usually allow you to chat, harvest, explore, and strategize in between individual fights if you need to do so.
This is MY opinion on it. No matter how much I or anyone else parrots it, my opinion does not become fact.
It is the same thing for your opinion on them being different because they take place over different timeframes and character actions, have different on screen prompts, and have different levels of player responsibility attached to them.
P.S. In fact, considering how this thread is titled "xp bonus chains", someone would be perfectly within their rights to think you are talking about skill chains which grant bonus XP.
BeaverBiscuit said:oneADseven said:Snip
Apparantly calling someone short sighted is bad, but calling someone's serious post "a good laugh" isn't.
Again I may need to remind you that your posts can look every bit as ridiculous/rude to the guys on the other side of the table, as their posts look to you.
I'll say it as many times at it takes; the similarity/difference between skill chains and kill chains IS dictated by debatable opinions. Your assertions that they are highly different are no more valid than assertions that they are highly similar.
My personal feelings eb towards "highly similar". The only significant difference I see between the two is that kill chaining takes place over multiple battles and skill chaining usually takes place over one. Meaning that skill chaining is very slightly preferable (but still not a great idea imho).At least it will usually allow you to chat, harvest, explore, and strategize in between individual fights if you need to do so.
This is MY opinion on it. No matter how much I or anyone else parrots it, my opinion does not become fact.
It is the same thing for your opinion on them being different because they take place over different timeframes and character actions, have different on screen prompts, and have different levels of player responsibility attached to them.
P.S. In fact, considering how this thread is titled "xp bonus chains", someone would be perfectly within their rights to think you are talking about skill chains which grant bonus XP.
You called the post we are both referencing a failure and admitted that several people thought you were trolling. If you're trying to make it out like my "had a good laugh" comment was rude, please consider the context of the message I responded to and how my comment pales in comparison to the negative undertone that you acknowledged having for your own message. This feels like another reach to me, similar to you calling someone out on the "No Random Loot Boxes" thread and pointing out how their suggestion that there won't be any cash shops or in-game purchases in Pantheon was incorrect based on the fact that multi-boxing will exist.
P.S. -- You're reaching, again. My previous post was basically a plea to get things back on-topic and I'm disappointed that you couldn't resist the temptation to not only further derail it, but grasp for straws on why you or others could justify doing it. I'm done responding to strawman fallacy. Maybe someone else will indulge you.
For the record, I never acknowledged any negative undercurrents, only that it was hard to understand. Within the rules of this forum, it is still your responsibility to reach out to me or Krixus before posting something highly offensive. It is still your responsibility to respect the fact that we have opinions, even if you personally feel that your contrary opinions are fact, and ours are derailments.
I have never reached nor put up a strawman, nor justified any uncouth behavior. I even called down Krix when he got a little overpassionate.
It is not derailing to counter your statements that legitimate opinions on the topic are derailments. It is an attempt to get us back into a state of professional debate.
As for trying to reach out to you in several situations, my apologies for trying and failing. I hope that despite your VIP status, Kilsin considers removing all of your disrespectful, sarcastic, and noninformative/repetitive posts on this thread, as well as my failed and repetitive attempts at convincing you to take a step back and see what you've been doing.
In FFXI XP chains (along with skill chains and a couple other twists) added some spice to an otherwise slow-paced combat system. This spice inlcuded:
- encouraging groups to perform the best they can, leading to a heightened sense of accomplishment.
- enhancing the combat experience by adding time-to-kill as a variable; an important addition to a slow-paced system
- providing a tangible way of measuring group performance.
The points above are stating the obvious, but there are more subtle ways in how it played out. For those who never played FFXI, let me paint a picture of how XP chains enhanced the combat.
Let's say we've killed a sequence of mobs and we're now pulling for XP chain #4. We have 120 seconds from the time of the last mob's death to pull it off.
- the mages immediately rest after the last mob's death while the thief runs off to find another mob to pull.
- with a new mob found, the thief now has to make a decision on whether or not the mages have enough magic points to win the fight.
- he descides they do, pulls the mob to camp.
- the white mage (healer) knows that he doesn't have enough MP to heal through this fight, plus conserve enough MP for XP chain #5, so he stays resting while the tank starts to take a beating.
- the red mage (jack of all trades magic class) notices that the white mage is still resting, so he provides secondary heals to the tank.
- tank almost dies.
- white mage stops resting to blast off a couple of well-timed heals, then immediately starts resting again to get MP for chain #5.
- thief disengages when mob isn't yet dead, looking to make a perfectly-timed pull for chain #5.
- chain #4 mob dies just as the thief arrives back at camp with chain #5 mob.
- chain #5 fight starts, with different variables at play (white mage MP half full, red mage MP almost gone, black mage MP almost gone, etc.), creating different conditions than the previous fight.
The above example could have gone many different ways. Perhaps in chain #5 the white mage had almost full MP, while the other mages had very little. Perhaps the black mage (squishy damage dealer) pushed a little too hard in his eagerness to get chain #5 and pulled hate, throwing the group into scramble mode.
Without the incentive that XP chains provide, it is much more likely that the average PUG would take the conservative, kill-one-thing-slowly-and-rest-up-fully, non-emergent sad-face :( method of snoring combat. I'm only joking, of course - nothing is wrong with fighting that way - but I think that these systems should be designed in a way to encourage the kind of combat outlined above, as it undoubtedly makes for a more engaging and replayable system.
The point is, XP chains encourage truely emergent gameplay, where down-to-the-wire player made judgements/decsicions (facilitated by the XP chain time restraint) make the difference between a group-wide wipe and a very successful XP party. This helped to transform the slow-paced combat system in FFXI into a dynamic, not-really-sure-what's-going-to-happen-next system.
My championing of FFXI's combat system is a bit surprising considering I come from a compeititive FPS background. I suppose that says the devs got something crucially right, especially considering the years of involvement of the hundreds of thousands of players who participated in its seemingly molasses-slow combat. Seriously, if you watch old videos of FFXI the combat seems to move like molasses. But, with a well put together group who were pushing against the boundaries of what was possible (encouraged to do so by the XP chain system), it didn't feel like molasses!
EDIT: For the love of God, why was my post's formatting butchered?!?! YAAAAAAAARGGGGGGGGGGGGGg
Plenty of great points Eriugena, thanks for contributing to the discussion. I think the major issue that some folks have when it comes to this system is that they view the mechanic as "fake" or "contrived" or they feel it forces players to act a specific way. You shared a great example that could have, as you said, gone plenty of different ways. That engaging/dynamic style of emergent play is what allowed "the grind" to feel fun, flavorful, and have insanely high replay value. It took a monotonous snore inducing aspect of an MMO and turned into something special ... but because it's "contrived" to do that, it gets dragged through the mud. I appreciate the in-depth explanation you offered on what any given combat sequence could feel like and truly hope I get to enjoy that kind of thought provoking risk vs reward element of combat again in the future. Cheers!
I never played FF, so I'm going purely off of what I've read here, but there are definitely pros and cons to the xp chain system
On one hand if you have a good group you'll be rewarded and that's always a plus. On the other there's the potential that people will discriminate against bad/slow pullers, or leave groups if people aren't playing to their liking. This would probably be incentive to get better at your class, but not everyone has the time or even the ability to get "good enough". I know it probably didn't necessarily happen in FF but that doesn't mean it couldn't or wouldn't in Pantheon; I would just hate to see a system that's good on paper to fail or cause the game as a whole to fail due to the hardcore playerbase.
Furthermore there's the issue of boxing - if the ability to 6 box is there (which it very much could be) then people could just chain their own xp unless the time between kills to continue the chain is extremely low.
@uneko Please check my 3'rd post near the top of this page (there are also several posts on pages 5, 6, and 7) as I touched on both points that you bring up. XP Chains were a major deterrent to boxing. Also, Eriugena shared a combat scenario above that I think is a pretty fair representation of why multi-boxing would be severely inefficient in a game that utilizes XP chains. I never saw a single boxed account during combat in all the time I played FFXI. Not once. FFXI utilized a few other features such as skill chains and the sub-class system that also served as pretty major deterrents.
IMO, this sounds like a system that would be a great candidate for testing and player feedback during alpha/beta. Technically I don't think it would be too much implementation effort (start a timer when the current mob dies, add bonus exp to next kill if timer not null yet, keep track of timer and bonus exp). Shouldn't be too difficult to add it, or remove it if people really don't like it.
Would love to say I'm surprised this thread is still going but I'm not. >.<
I've played around 12 years between EQ1 and VG and about 10 of those years were as a Bard and as main puller. I LOVE pulling. I love CC. I love keeping my group safe while constantly pulling mob after mob after mob, bringing more mobs before the current mobs are even dead. When I join a group its members experience, easily, an increase in XP (in other words they feel a bonus to their XP) when compared with many to most other pullers they've grouped with. And I've made plenty of friends in the process. Have been made main bard in plenty of top tier raiding guilds. I've done this all without a mob-chaining XP bonus modifier. Never needed one for incentive.
I stopped posting on these forums for a while because too many ppl here don't know how to handle other ppl's opinion (amidst other reasons). And I'm not one to bite my tongue so then eventually I clash hard with some of you. What I would love to say is that I'd love for some of you to look at how you hoard your ideas like they're golden treasure and if another opposes your ideas you think they are trying to steal away your shine but I won't because I don't care. Because I know some of yous don't care what others have to say. So thus, I am going to refrain my best from giving any opinion that agrees or disagrees. I am simply going to share my experiences of my 20+ years of MMO gaming. Just remember...it's the ideas that will help shape Pantheon not the fighting.
I'll end with this; I could care less if this XP bonus mechainc is in Pantheon. It's the least of my worries. From my experience graphics for these types of mechanics can usually be toggled off and I will continue to pull as I always have. Giving the group a heaping of extra XP.
edit. Re-read this and felt it was possible it came off as negative. Just know that people can oppose each others ideas without becoming enemies. I am a very direct and blunt person. I value honesty and as long as you are honest with me I could care less if you don't agree with me. This way we know where each other stands and from here we can discuss things like grown adults rather than throwing barbs and insults at one another.
Good day to yous