Liav said:That isn't how it worked in Vanguard. Once you tagged a mob and it was locked to you, you couldn't even physically attack the mob.
Ohhh interesting, yea I never tried Vanguard.
That's a cool idea and would stop offensive classes from powerleveling but would also stop saving/friendship from happening between offensive classes, not sure how I feel about it.
BeaverBiscuit said:Ohhh interesting, yea I never tried Vanguard.
That's a cool idea and would stop offensive classes from powerleveling but would also stop saving/friendship from happening between offensive classes, not sure how I feel about it.
Yeah, I should clarify that Vanguard also had leashing mechanics unlike EQ so you couldn't drag mobs across entire zones, so saving people was seldom a necessity. I'm not sure how well it would work in Pantheon.
Iirc Brad already stated that more important (open world raid?) content will already be locked like this just to avoid the drama that generally occurs.
Liav said:Bannable lol.
Camping is too ambiguous to define. That's why the EQ devs never did, and never really enforced it too terribly.
Who decides what mobs are part of a specific camp? If my group kills fast enough I could probably pull two "camps" at once. Am I going to be punished then?
Jeeze.
Well griefing/Harassing others is bannable and always was in EQ. You must remember the play nice rules? You cant just go around causing problems for others. I am sure they will announce a system here too. Just because Sony gave up on enforcing rules, I know for a fact when Brad was in control his team did enforce them in the beginning.
Nobody cared about fighting mobs, but dont cause problems for others. It was a simple rule? are you forgetting that one? maybe you didnt play long enough?
If i fought 3 lets say, you came up and started to KS constantly, it is harassment. I am sure it will be enforced here too.
Camps are a very different matter from kill stealing or griefing.
Kill stealing to me is where I am obviously set up to attack a mob, perhaps standing in front of it buffing, and someone else runs in, sees this and pulls the mob first. In games with a mechanic giving the mob to the puller that is really all kill stealing CAN be since once you pull it can't be taken away from you (ignoring things like yells for help). If the game has a mechanic giving the mob to whoever does more damage and NOT giving the puller quest credit or loot rights kill stealing is someone taking the mob away from me by doing more damage when I don't need help to kill it. I'm focusing on semantics here and giving no value judgment on whether kill stealing is right or wrong.
Griefing is where someone does pretty much anything at all with the obvious intention of making the game less pleasant for others rather than doing the thing to benefit him or her self. Often, in fact usually, only time and a pattern of activities shows whether something is accidental, intended to benefit the person doing it or intended to hurt someone else. Kill stealing may not be griefing. Camping may be griefing (for example if I camp mobs I don't need with the clear intention of preventing anyone else from completing a quest that they are needed for).
Camping to me is establishing a relatively fixed presence in an area for the purpose of killing mobs that are found in that area. I don't consider wandering around and now and then returning to a spot to be camping - camping should be obvious to anyone coming by. It also needs to be active - if I go afk more than briefly I have no complaint if someone else pulls mobs they may need. This was a major topic of discussion in the early days of Dark Ages of Camelot where the community at least on the pve server had a rather strong bias against camp stealing as long as the person holding the camp was reasonable. For example if I needed a few kills to complete a quest and asked before pulling the camper was expected to say yes unless there was a strong reason not to.
Griefing when proven was grounds for discipline up to and including banning depending on the circumstances. Both in DAOC and quite a few other MMOs. Properly so.
Kill stealing was ground for discipline when it amounted to griefing - if done occasionally and without the known intention of targeting other people it was a matter for the community to self-police if it wanted to. I don't recall a specific prohibition on it - and how do you prove that someone else saw you in front of the mob buffing before they pulled?
Camping stealing was explicitly allowed. It was not a violation of the terms of service it was just rude.
I see.
I don't really agree with that definition of kill stealing. Imo, kill stealing is attacking a mob that is already engaged in combat with someone and dealing more than 50% of the total damage, effectively taking credit for it. If you're not engaged with the mob, it's fair game to me, even if it might be "rude". In other words, FTE, or first to engage, is the only relevant consideration in who a mob "belongs to" in my opinion.
As far as camping, yeah, I agree with that definition. I just see nerds all the time, 17 years later, arguing about whether or not their group is pulling from too far outside of what is considered "their camp" in zones.
Hello folks. There is no favorable answer. Patheon is based on grouping, community driven. Hopefully on that, if and when mistakes happens, accidents or such, group/guild and individuals will somehow work it out so that future problems will not happen (yeah right). So we hope, some of us. There will be jerks, some rotten apples in a barrel and folks who just want to do what they do. Vanguard had a good system (miss Vanguard), if you/group were the first to hit/engage it, that target/mob is yours. No other group can help or steal kill it. What about have a level range difference. Lets say you or your group engage in a mob and a higher level player or group comes along and knowingly decides to steal kill the mob. If they are five level high then the mob, they get no exp no loot, but share the faction hit (if any). You, your gruop gets the exp and loot (and any faction hits). If they are within five levels, then its who does the most damaged, and this is where community comes in, GM or guild leader(s) etc. As for raid, unless its open raid where ANY person, group can join its free for all, fine. If it was part of a storyline, quest arch, should go towards that guild or group of people who is/are doing it. Lets say, 22 of the 24 people in raid group died (because some of their ISP/router disconnected) and here comes player X or group X just happens to be nearby, going in for the kill, getting the exp and loot. Knowing the fact that other group was engaging in it, bringing it down. If its part of storyline, questarch, questline surely people can get together and work it out, guild team up or something, it its open free for all like Rift where anyone can join, fine, everyone gets equal share of exp and loot. Person or group that does most damage, gets extra loot and exp or something. Am speaking for PvE, as for PvP no clue.
Player A engage skeleton, taking it down to 40% player A is at 90% health. Player B comes along and sees skeleton is just almost at halfway mark, decides for easy kill, runs in and finish off the skeleton, doing 55% of the damage. Walks away with exp and loot and faction hits (if any). (hence creating future "i will train on you...just you wait" and the cycle starts or continues).
Player A engage skeleton taking it down to 40% player A is at 70% health. Here comes Player B, sees Player A engaging skeleton and is somewhat hurt, ask player A hey do you need help? Player A quickly repies typing, no i am good thanks. Player B walks on looking for mob to engage (wishful thinking senario).
Player A engage skeleton...gets it down to 40%, player A is at 5% health and about to die soon. Player B is neaby and sees this, comes running in and kills skeleton. No time to type "hey you need help".
There are many examples. Insert skeleton with any mob name or boss. Insert player A with group or guild, or player.
Am going to asume that when we engage a target/mob, when we fail/die, the target/mob will reset to full health? Or will they stay at the health mark where they were? Which makes some folks just waiting for player/group to fail and go in to finish it off. For now the devs according to recent streams, who ever does most damage. With this in mind, will there be level restriction? Player A who is level 5 and a Player B who is level 30.
Granted that if you do help another player/group you run the risk of aggro. As a cleric (among other classes) I at times heal folks when i run from one city to the next or quest, and that gets the attention of mob(s).
In my opinion, the only right anwser is to lock the target to the player or group who attaked first. Should another player or group wish to help or come to the aid if asked, they can do so knowing its not going to get them loot or credit. I typicaly wont help unless asked, because its often seen as rude, but i could also just let them die and take the mob myself once its unlocked. :)
"Tagging" a mob and gaining uncontested rights to it is just a lazy mechanic. EQ had it right, I hated claiming in VG and EQ2. Use damage to guage who the mob belongs to.
If people really want "tag and claim" on Pantheon, I hope VR will not push it through on the PvP server.
Beefcake said:Unfortunately, the kill stealer that is dedicated to taking your mob as soon as it spawns will always be faster to tag than the group that camped for 30 minutes waiting for it to spawn.
Yes, but is the KSer dedicated enough to survive the train after a monk feigns death next to them?
VicNuggets said:Beefcake said:Unfortunately, the kill stealer that is dedicated to taking your mob as soon as it spawns will always be faster to tag than the group that camped for 30 minutes waiting for it to spawn.
Yes, but is the KSer dedicated enough to survive the train after a monk feigns death next to them?
Which is exactly how I plan to get rid of KSers in the areas I am in.
Beefcake said:Unfortunately, the kill stealer that is dedicated to taking your mob as soon as it spawns will always be faster to tag than the group that camped for 30 minutes waiting for it to spawn.
But I dont consider that kill stealing. If a repeated action I might consider it camp stealing in certain cases, but I would not consider it so when camping a Named. Open world contested content. The contest being that I grabbed it first.
If I am standing in an area in front of a named mob and not attacking it, than you are welcome to take it. But, if I am there waiting for the mob to spawn, you see I am there, and try to take it from me before I can click after its immediate spawn, that is KSing to me and you will be treated the same.
Part of an open contested world is camping, waiting for spawns. Part of an open contested world is #}{]#% who try to cut in and steal the mob when it spawns.
Luckily there are plenty of ways to solve this within the community and there will always be those willing take time out of their day to help teach the KSers a lesson or five. My friends and I definitely will.
Greattaste said:Seriously, just let natural selection work. Majority damage wins. Claiming takes the adrenaline out of the fight.
If its really that big of a problem on PvE servers then put tagging in, but PLEASE dont put tagging in on the PvP server.
I agree with you on PvP servers. Im not sure anyone would disagree. It just wouldnt make any sense on a PvP server. The point being though that in PvP you can at least fight over the mob, if it comes to it. Which might be a reason for me to join the PvP servers. But I think differently for PvE.
That bolded part though. Thats your opinion. In FFXI there was plenty of adrenaline with this kind of system. Imagine 5 Guilds all camping a named on a 17 hour respawn with a 5% drop rate. And then all of the sudden the Mob spawns and everyone comes alert and are scrambling to get the first skill/spell landed. I believe in a groups/raids choice in strategys. If they claim it they should get a shot at it. If they want to kite it around and chip at it then awesome. If they want to face tank it great. If they want to do a dps burn so be it. I dont think anyone should rob them of that chance or challenge. That being said, if they fail then walk over their corpses and show them how winners do it. And to show no hard feelings you could rez them afterwards.
Aside from that another point is this game isnt supposed to be all about the dps. There are 3 other roles and unless they can calculate that into the equation, straight dps % sounds........... flawed... to me.
Beefcake said:If I am standing in an area in front of a named mob and not attacking it, than you are welcome to take it. But, if I am there waiting for the mob to spawn, you see I am there, and try to take it from me before I can click after its immediate spawn, that is KSing to me and you will be treated the same.
Part of an open contested world is camping, waiting for spawns. Part of an open contested world is #}{]#% who try to cut in and steal the mob when it spawns.
Luckily there are plenty of ways to solve this within the community and there will always be those willing take time out of their day to help teach the KSers a lesson or five. My friends and I definitely will.
Im sensing a little aggression here and I want to stop it before it starts. Part of this is different game cultures. But in FFXI what you just described would make you the rude one, and you would loose respect/face in the community. It was normal and natural to claim first as soon as a Named spawned. And was just part of the contest. If you bitched about it you'd loose face, particularly with the Japanese community who were just as likely to blacklist you as ignore you for whining about it. Let alone seek out vengeance for normal behavior in open world content.
That being said, FFXI also had instanced content too. So if you didnt want to put up with camping and all that comes with it you could just focus on the instanced stuff. And I acknowledge that EQ did things differently. And Im not going to say I wont follow that etiquette. Perfectly willing to give it a try, but have severe doubts about it and what people say will happen (community rep, etc.) and what will actually happen. At which point VR would need to step in anyway and fix the issue, or Ill reserve the right to go to a PvP server which is the only case I would have no doubts about community policing having teeth and mattering. But hey I could be wrong and as Ive said I hope to be wrong.
Hope that better spells out my side here and you understand it is not my intent to be a rude player that trolls and griefs for fun. But in my experience the only KSs were people that gamed the system and tricked FFXIs first claim/tag system so that they could gain control of a mob that beloned to someone else. Which did happen sometimes and people got shunned by the community for it or they themselves became server wide grief targets.
There is no hostility, just different points of view on what is acceptable behavior and what is not. Even within this game, different servers may have different community standards.
If the community on my servers decides that it is perfectly acceptable to steal a mob from those that have been sitting and waiting for their shot by being the first to tag, so be it. I will not do anything about it unless it is a clear trolling/harassment issue.
However, I hope that is not the case.
Greattaste said:Seriously, just let natural selection work. Majority damage wins. Claiming takes the adrenaline out of the fight.
If its really that big of a problem on PvE servers then put tagging in, but PLEASE dont put tagging in on the PvP server.
For PvP servers go for it. You have ways to combat a potential KS.
For PvE, You are essentially assigning value that DPS Classes > than everything else. Choosing to be a DPS class grants you inherent advantages right from the start. Example, You have a tank class and support class fighting a mob. Then a pair of DPS classes come in and essentially do more damage and steal, regardless of the length of time the healer/tank have been engaged with a mob. I think it is just as lazy to say damage wins all.
Amsai said:That bolded part though. Thats your opinion. In FFXI there was plenty of adrenaline with this kind of system. Imagine 5 Guilds all camping a named on a 17 hour respawn with a 5% drop rate. And then all of the sudden the Mob spawns and everyone comes alert and are scrambling to get the first skill/spell landed. I believe in a groups/raids choice in strategys. If they claim it they should get a shot at it. If they want to kite it around and chip at it then awesome. If they want to face tank it great. If they want to do a dps burn so be it. I dont think anyone should rob them of that chance or challenge. That being said, if they fail then walk over their corpses and show them how winners do it. And to show no hard feelings you could rez them afterwards.
Aside from that another point is this game isnt supposed to be all about the dps. There are 3 other roles and unless they can calculate that into the equation, straight dps % sounds........... flawed... to me.
Exactly my thoughts as well. Why wouldn't a "difficult", "engaging" "truly Dynamic" game want to promote various strategies in combat, group play and progression. Pushing Damage over everything and expecting gameplay to result around dps arms race seems to diminish the possibilities that come with a "Quaternity" philosophy.
I agree that >50% sucks, but first tag tag sucks just as much. My group MAY have a chance to do enough DPS to get it back, but I cannot beat twitcher to first tag.
I don't like either option, but I don't have a better way to solve it either.
With their limited budget, I think they will concentrate on things that will effect the community more and hope the community solves the problem on its own. If we can't, they will. But don't expect it at launch.
Amsai said:Beefcake said:Unfortunately, the kill stealer that is dedicated to taking your mob as soon as it spawns will always be faster to tag than the group that camped for 30 minutes waiting for it to spawn.
But I dont consider that kill stealing. If a repeated action I might consider it camp stealing in certain cases, but I would not consider it so when camping a Named. Open world contested content. The contest being that I grabbed it first.
So two waiters are working in the same restaurant. One waiter is working a table for 30 minutes, and that table drops the check. The other waiter takes the check. The first waiter who worked the table for 30 minutes says "what gives"? The second waiter says "open world contested conent, i grabbed it first, so it's mine".
I get that other people have different opinions, but this REALLY doesn't seem bad to you?
Yes because thats not a contest thats a job. And the second waiter is stealing from the first and likely the employer. You cant really make a fair comparison with a job in the real world vs an adventure in a fantasy world. Hell even if it was a job in a fantasy world that would still be wrong, but an adventure is a bit more about skill and the luck of the draw I think.
Indiana Jones and Dora the Explorer both enter a ruin. They are both hunting for a relic of the ancient god Kuu Kuu Kachoo. Dora grabs it first. They both spent hours crawling through the ruin, but Dora found it first. Its a forgotten ruin, no one owned it, and Dora found it first. There is no theft on something that wasnt owned or owed.
But as I said I do realize things were done differently in EQ. That doesnt make it right or better, just different. And at one time over 500k subscibers agreed that the way FFXI did it was perfectly fine. It was just the way things were.