Seems like another unneeded set of rules, im not a fan of adding rules and regulations for things like this, until it become an issue that cannot be managed by the community. I played EQ1 for 8 years and only experienced KSing a few times and they always got paid back by the community. I also played EQ2 from beta, hated...HATED the locked combat system, even more at release when you could not turn it off. Create systems to control player bahavior, after we really know its going to be a problem.
Sevens said:Just leave it as it is, in the 5 or more years I played EQ this was a problem only a handful of times. Most times someone attacks your mob is simply they didnt see you before they engaged....
...My whole point is, VR needs to just let the community police itself and stay out of it (their are of course exceptions to that where the GMs stepping in is needed but they are rare and not for a silly issue like KSing)
+1.
Kill stealing did/does exist. I heard all about it while playing, but in several years of playing I witnessed it perhaps four or five times. And in a few of the cases the KSer stole a trash mob from me. Unless it was a raid target, the damage was not really that bad. Dying at the bottom of a huge dungeon was much worse than having someone kill steal from you. Having somone train you was also much worse.
Why is having a negitive experience in a game a bad thing. They happen all the time in real life. This type of game is most definitely going to have bad experiences from time to time. Its something you learn from. There are going to be times where your group cant hold a camp and get pushed out. Where many people are fighting over the same rare spawn. **** happens just like in real life. If you choose to ignore just all the bad its just not realistic, I beleive that is the core problem with games today. There are no "Bad experiences" which creates cry babies when things get a little tough.
Beefcake said:The bad experiences make the good so much better. Like when a raid mob kicks your ass for a week and you finally kill it with 3/4 of the raid force dead. Or, when you have to work your ass off for a month to get the special weapon you want. You learn to appreciate it.
Or when you are finally strong enough to back to Qeynos Hills and just destroy that B**** Holly Windstalker!!! OMG I hated her!
Beefcake said:The bad experiences make the good so much better. Like when a raid mob kicks your ass for a week and you finally kill it with 3/4 of the raid force dead. Or, when you have to work your ass off for a month to get the special weapon you want. You learn to appreciate it.
Those are entirely different "bad" experiences to me. Others are implying I'm saying bad experiences are bad in totality which I am not. I agree with you. I hope you have to work for things. Spend time and effort. Those examples you listed are do the natural state of gameplay and not caused by others at your expense; unlike kill stealing.
kelenin said:Having had to deal with KSers in EQ1, I have no problems with the way EQ1 did it. The only thing I'd say is give a little bonus to whoever tagged the mob.
If you hit it first, there is your headstart.
'Tagging' is insufficient. Why? Because it discounts completely the actual readyness of the group/raid. I've seen guilds do this on raid mobs, sending in someone to tag the boss and kite it around while the raid sets up. Bullpucky on that garbage. Not ready to engage? Sucks to be you. My guild is ready and we're going to leapfrog your guild and 'steal' that boss from your kiting whatever. If you still think you own that mob, hop in and do 50%+1 damage to prove it.
I've seen in groups where someone is running around in a dungeon 'tagging' named and pulling them across entire zones to their awaiting group. Again, bullpucky on that nonsense. My group will steal that mob.
Gnog said:For raid encounters, I would support a first-to-tag system that involved mechanics compelling the raid that was first to tag to immediately engage the fight and either succeed or perish. For example, raid-encounter mobs could be designed to immediately detect (i.e., agro), and summon into a fixed radius, anyone in the zone who is part of the first-to-tag player's group or raid. The only way to be removed from the agro list would be to die or gate. The point being, basically, that if you are first-to-tag, you better be ready to complete the encounter, or you'll be doing corpse recovery while the next group tries.
The amount of exploits possible with that idea are about endless. Manytimes it is the getting to the raid spot which is difficult and can separate one guild from another. That guild which moves faster and more efficiently as one should have the upperhand compared to guilds who's members get lost or fall into lava or disconnect or whatever on the way to the raid.
It is quite simple, if you aren't actually attacking the mob when my group/guild goes by, that mob is fair game. If you are actively engaged in a fight with your group/guild (whether or not I think you will win) that mob in yours. I wouldn't hinder you, but I won't help you either. If you wipe we're going to step over your corpses and take that mob though. My advice? Get on it the istant it spawns and hit it like your want to hit your inlaws and you won't have any problems ensuring that mob and its loot is yours.
Vandraad said:kelenin said:Having had to deal with KSers in EQ1, I have no problems with the way EQ1 did it. The only thing I'd say is give a little bonus to whoever tagged the mob.
If you hit it first, there is your headstart.
'Tagging' is insufficient. Why? Because it discounts completely the actual readyness of the group/raid. I've seen guilds do this on raid mobs, sending in someone to tag the boss and kite it around while the raid sets up. Bullpucky on that garbage. Not ready to engage? Sucks to be you. My guild is ready and we're going to leapfrog your guild and 'steal' that boss from your kiting whatever. If you still think you own that mob, hop in and do 50%+1 damage to prove it.
I've seen in groups where someone is running around in a dungeon 'tagging' named and pulling them across entire zones to their awaiting group. Again, bullpucky on that nonsense. My group will steal that mob.
I agree, there is no perfect solution, and when I proposed mine I was thinking of exactly some of these. It doesn't give the tagger the mob automatically, just gives him a slight advantage. But like I said before, I'm completely happy with the way EQ1 did it as is.
I do remember at one point in EQ CS would get involved, and would watch guilds and if they tagged a mob and just held onto it long enough for their raid to arrive and set up, then the GM would give the mob to another raid that was already present. I remember this happening multiple times in Velious. While this is a perfectly doable thing, I really wish it could be resolved in game somehow.
Vandraad said:It is quite simple, if you aren't actually attacking the mob when my group/guild goes by, that mob is fair game. If you are actively engaged in a fight with your group/guild (whether or not I think you will win) that mob in yours. I wouldn't hinder you, but I won't help you either. If you wipe we're going to step over your corpses and take that mob though. My advice? Get on it the istant it spawns and hit it like your want to hit your inlaws and you won't have any problems ensuring that mob and its loot is yours.
You know what the crazy part is? I could actually go along with this. Only in the above scenario it would still be first claim/tag for me.
Vandraad said:kelenin said:Having had to deal with KSers in EQ1, I have no problems with the way EQ1 did it. The only thing I'd say is give a little bonus to whoever tagged the mob.
If you hit it first, there is your headstart.
'Tagging' is insufficient. Why? Because it discounts completely the actual readyness of the group/raid. I've seen guilds do this on raid mobs, sending in someone to tag the boss and kite it around while the raid sets up. Bullpucky on that garbage. Not ready to engage? Sucks to be you. My guild is ready and we're going to leapfrog your guild and 'steal' that boss from your kiting whatever. If you still think you own that mob, hop in and do 50%+1 damage to prove it.
I've seen in groups where someone is running around in a dungeon 'tagging' named and pulling them across entire zones to their awaiting group. Again, bullpucky on that nonsense. My group will steal that mob.
Gnog said:For raid encounters, I would support a first-to-tag system that involved mechanics compelling the raid that was first to tag to immediately engage the fight and either succeed or perish. For example, raid-encounter mobs could be designed to immediately detect (i.e., agro), and summon into a fixed radius, anyone in the zone who is part of the first-to-tag player's group or raid. The only way to be removed from the agro list would be to die or gate. The point being, basically, that if you are first-to-tag, you better be ready to complete the encounter, or you'll be doing corpse recovery while the next group tries.
The amount of exploits possible with that idea are about endless. Manytimes it is the getting to the raid spot which is difficult and can separate one guild from another. That guild which moves faster and more efficiently as one should have the upperhand compared to guilds who's members get lost or fall into lava or disconnect or whatever on the way to the raid.
It is quite simple, if you aren't actually attacking the mob when my group/guild goes by, that mob is fair game. If you are actively engaged in a fight with your group/guild (whether or not I think you will win) that mob in yours. I wouldn't hinder you, but I won't help you either. If you wipe we're going to step over your corpses and take that mob though. My advice? Get on it the istant it spawns and hit it like your want to hit your inlaws and you won't have any problems ensuring that mob and its loot is yours.
I don't think it would be impossible to design a raid-encounter system that forces anyone who tags a mob to actually engage it in an effort to kill (or lose the tag). But that's the only point on which I'll quibble with you here. I think you've persuaded me.
This discussion makes me want to roll on a PvP server.
@Gnog
I have had a similar urge after discussions over this very topic. Im willing to give the EQ way a try to see if community policing and reputation and EQ style Etiquette prevail. And I honestly hope it does. I want to be proven wrong. But I cant help but feel this is being naive about the realities of 2016 internet. Luckily for us Brad's comments in the AMA are still accurate to my knowledge.
So whatever the devs come up with, I will try a character on a PvE server. But if I dont like how lax the rules are and how empty the community policing is then Ill be on PvP servers only. Because I refuse to be helpless and do nothing as somebody steals my mob when this community policing fails. So while I would love a PvP and a PvE character, I would have to roll on PvP only because then at least the community policing would have teeth.
I only had this issue on the EQ TLP server. Live server was an overall positive experiences. My playstyle has always been "engaging content that is level appropriate" AND "completing content at the expected level". For me it is far more rewarding to farm gear when it is not trivial to me. I was turned away from TLP servers because that competition and the OP's scenario has happened to me, and it is incredibly infuriating to see a lvl 50 kill your lvl 24 named because of "DPS race, brah".
After scouring the internet for days trying to track down their real name and address, i simply realized that "Hey, doofus, you choose to play on a progression server then cry about competition? If you dont want to poopsock, you're going to be disappointed."
Lesson learned. I got the classic experience that I never expected.
Is this a real issue? I would say no.
If you're looking for a complex solution tho so you dont have to ever worry about it happening heres a scenario.
Tagged first and does at least 33% damage(you are gonna have to be engaged at least) gets loot, most damage gets experience. Loot on community assited mobs NEVER drops magical loot or gear, only tradeskill, trash and non-epic quest items, and all non-epic quests update.
Seems like locking a (named/rare)mob out to a person who has killed it for a period of time would solve most of the issues. Long enough to allow a few spawns to roll through. It wouldn't stop KSing but if two groups were fighting over the same mob, which in my experience is when most of the KSing happens, it would encourage one group to vacate the area after they got their kill.
Or a second idea would be to have a reputation tab when you inspect players. Other players reviews would be in there. Like an ingame Yelp. That way the community could keep tabs on trashy players and avoid them.
For the most part most players won't steal your pull on purpose, so if there weren't any rules applied I think it would be just fine.
VicNuggets said:Or a second idea would be to have a reputation tab when you inspect players. Other players reviews would be in there. Like an ingame Yelp. That way the community could keep tabs on trashy players and avoid them.
Good in theory, but I think it wouldn't work. People would end up paying for a good reputation if needed. OR the flip side, people could also pay to give certain people a bad reputation.
They kinds already talked about this maybe. Maybe this will be something in the whole Mentor system they have planned. Who knows.
VicNuggets said:Or a second idea would be to have a reputation tab when you inspect players. Other players reviews would be in there. Like an ingame Yelp. That way the community could keep tabs on trashy players and avoid them.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3134/in-game-reputation-system
Man I was terrible in that thread.
Regardless, sounds pretty abusable. Like Backin said, bribing for good rep.
Another thing that I can see happening is bandwagon mentality. It is impossible to avoid bandwagoning, even on these forums. I can easily see someone accumulating a hundred bad feedbacks in 5 seconds. There also no way to moderate it that is practical for the CS team without tons of staff. What's to stop 100 super sensitive people from leaving bad feedbacks over really innocuous things, or in their ignorance, leaving bad feedbacks for perceived slights?
If someone is doing something that really warrants "feedback", they can petition the CS team and get it handled.
Liav said:...
Regardless, sounds pretty abusable.
...
As I tried to argue in the rating thread, the only way abuse comes about is if it's a public rating system. If reviews/ratings are only visible by people you have an established personal connection with, then trolls will be trolling their friends as much as anyone else. While that reduces the scope of application, it all but removes abuse, and provides people with a mechanic that has already emerged (emergent gameplay alert) in the form of guild's blacklists.
Actually the arguments in the ratings thread is quite similar to the arguments in this mob tagging/stealing thread...
OP: There could be rampant abuse allowed by this mechanic(s).
Argument 1: Let the community handle it.
Argument 2: Let us develop a mechanic that prevents abuse.
While argument 1 is solid and just as valid as argument 2, it is based on anecdotal evidence and trust in the community. Argument 2 is much more difficult to explore, given that design is an iterative process and the forums aren't the greatest place for it. I applaud anyone who attempts to guide a design discussion in the forums and hope that all those participating will realize/respect how difficult it is to develop an idea in this format.
With all that said, I'm afraid I fall into the argument 1 camp with respect to kill stealing and it is indeed based on my personal anecdotal evidence and trust in this community overall.
In my opinion, the idea of introducing such a mechanic (rating system) undermines the idea of the community being able to handle itself. The tool would functionally exist to make up for inadequacies in community self-policing. However, that's off the topic of the thread.
I'm a fan of encounter locking as was done in Vanguard. First to engage essentially gets rights to the mob by default.
While I "have faith" in the tyranny of the community to control people's maliciousness, I'm not going to sit here and advocate for giving people avenues to be douchebags. There is no practical reason to allow kill stealing to even be possible from a mechanics perspective.
Liav said:I'm a fan of encounter locking as was done in Vanguard. First to engage essentially gets rights to the mob by default.
FFXI has this mechanic of locking an encounter to the soloer or group, but overall it was a major pain. All it takes is one party member to "yell for help" which unlocks the encounter for others to help, but nobody gets XP or loot drops. Countless times I remember fights where one partry member yells for help just when the mob was about to die. Sometimes by mistake others times just to troll the group.
Lovecraft said:FFXI has this mechanic of locking an encounter to the soloer or group, but overall it was a major pain. All it takes is one party member to "yell for help" which unlocks the encounter for others to help, but nobody gets XP or loot drops. Countless times I remember fights where one partry member yells for help just when the mob was about to die. Sometimes by mistake others times just to troll the group.
So don't add a "yell for help" option. Sounds like a pretty simple problem to solve, to me. We didn't have this issue in Vanguard.
I personally feel a very basic anti-kill steal mechanism won't do in a strong community. Community develops its own set of morals and people tend to follow them. I remember lots of times at lower levels in EQ high lvls accidentally took rare spawn mobs my group and I had worked hard to spawn-before we even attacked the mob. Despite having full rights to their kill, the high lvls often apologized profusely and offered to give us everything the mob dropped. Stopping people from stealing rare spawns is a whole other monster and I personally don't think its very possible unless you let people claim an entire camp.
If you tag a mob when you first hit it then you get credit for it even if someone does all the work for you. You don't get credit if another class, like an eq1 mage/pet combo, can usually hit the thing before your class can even start swinging/casting.
There is no risk reward for getting saved wtih simple tagging mechanisms(mob xp/gear vs. xp/time loss on death), and it certainly doesn't help anyone who doesn't like powerleveling. You could poke something and get full credit for it when your high lvl buddy kills it for you, (but I'm not sure about Pantheons current views on powerleveling).
In a way, simple anti-kill steal tagging type mechanisms make it harder for the community to be more engaged when working together.
BeaverBiscuit said:If you tag a mob when you first hit it then you get credit for it even if someone does all the work for you. You don't get credit if another class, like an eq1 mage/pet combo, can usually hit the thing before your class can even start swinging/casting.
That isn't how it worked in Vanguard. Once you tagged a mob and it was locked to you, you couldn't even physically attack the mob.