Raidan said:Courtesy is subjective. The greatest benefit of a lack of defined systems is that the community will form them, and in this case, what is considered courteous or appropriate behavior for KSing, camps, tagging etc. However, this is also contigent on the requirement to need the community and others. So, if Pantheon has grouping requirements for progression - players will adapt to the server norms of what is considered courteous. You don't see this in most newer MMos as you don't need others to progress.
Perhaps this was only pertinent to the way some of us, (not sure all did this) played EQ. Gaming etiquette, call out "camp check" to find out who was at what camp, you move on and check again for another camp. Or you invite someone to group, needing the same mob to complete whatever mission they are doing. I realize that perhaps in other games, particularly those modern MMOs this wasn't even a thing that people did. If we have some old school gamers in Pantheon, perhaps that will be a thing again, all depends what kind of community we end up with. Those of us who practiced these things, can try setting the "good example" maybe it will catch on, maybe it won't.
CanadinaXegony said:
Perhaps this was only pertinent to the way some of us, (not sure all did this) played EQ. Gaming etiquette, call out "camp check" to find out who was at what camp, you move on and check again for another camp. Or you invite someone to group, needing the same mob to complete whatever mission they are doing. I realize that perhaps in other games, particularly those modern MMOs this wasn't even a thing that people did. If we have some old school gamers in Pantheon, perhaps that will be a thing again, all depends what kind of community we end up with. Those of us who practiced these things, can try setting the "good example" maybe it will catch on, maybe it won't.
I would like to see us band together as a community and make sure camp checks are relevant again.
That is something that we can agree to prerelease and make happen starting in testing. If the precedence is set, and it becomes the norm, others will have to follow suit.
Is that something others are in favor of?
Xxar said:I agree , I just was trying a more proactive approach ... after all these are development forums. This is where we get to debate the Iffys :P
Except we don't truly know if this is an "iffy" subject. It's quite possible (even probable) that VR already has a system in mind with how all of this is going to be handled, and no amount of input from the community is going to change whatever decision they have in mind. I would love a monthly roundtable where "iffy" subjects are identified and presented to the community. As time goes on, those "iffys" can be upgraded to "solids" and then we can move on to the next "iffy" topic. As it stands right now, do we as a community know of any single concept that isn't set in stone, where the developers are actively looking for feedback? Pantheon has a very passionate fanbase with many people that are very eager to help in any way they can, and I think some extra guidance from VR could help point us in the right direction to maximize our efforts and contributions. Personally, I am not that into crafting. It's just not something I have ever been that interested in ... but if VR made a post on the front page saying that they were debating on X, Y, or Z crafting features, I would go out of my way to engage in those conversations rather than the myriad of others available to me.
Or, rather than a roundtable focused on hot topics, I'd even be okay with a graveyard section where many dead horses lie. This section would be filled with various gameplay elements that are pretty set in stone. It wouldn't be necessary for VR to provide their plan on these topics either ... just letting us know that there IS a plan in place would be perfectly sufficient. For example, Kilsin recently commented on the Recruit a Friend topic and said that VR had some ideas in mind on how they were going to handle it, adding that further speculation wasn't really going to make a difference on what they planned on doing. I appreciate that information because it was basically just checking something off the list for me. I think the FAQ update will help a lot in this regard and I'm really looking forward to seeing it.
Preamble:
In any 'open world' there will contesting of resources... it is inevitable. However, VR will have the advantage of having seen how this played out (in EQ, VG and other games) and so work to ensure the open world of Terminus is subject to as few of the more egregious issues as possible without having to sacrifice the 'Vision' (TM). This is a development forum and so we need to keep the big picture in mind. Our discussions are, I feel, useful to VR so as to help them see all the possible arguements on both sides of any given issue and a set of possible solutions.
My 2 cents (about 1 and a half-pence)
Pantheon is not 'EQ', or even 'VG', but it does plan to have some things from these, front and centre:
A strong Community derived from the need to band together vs the environment
... Just ask anyone who played EQ from 1999-2003 about the strength of the community.
Pantheon, alone of all the modern PvE MMOs, is setting the challenge high. This will mean :
progression will need grouping in most cases,
reputation will have impact on player interactions,
the community will set the level of expectations.
I strongly suspect these will act to curb more and more of the player-base as they rise in levels. The existence of many veteran players salted throughout Terminus will help gel the community in the early days, acting to percolate these ideas of community and reputation outwards into the newer player-base. That being said, there will still need to be mechanics in place to ensure the community can enjoy the content while actively contesting it!
Mechanics to streamline contested content:
1. Multiple versions of 'best' gear for each level range
2. Crafting alternatives to contested drops (of 'near similar' value)
3. Robust tagging mechanics
4. Challenging content (Number/Strength/AI)
5. Early induction into grouping (perhaps by level 4)
6. Early 'taster' dungeon content (level 20 or lower)
7. Variations in more 'Epic' quests (more than 1 pathway to gain)
8. Robust death penalty
9. Journal/Note area to track reputation/information.
I only did 9, since #10 is a secret!
Evoras, knows the secret!
philo said:CanadinaXegony said:
Perhaps this was only pertinent to the way some of us, (not sure all did this) played EQ. Gaming etiquette, call out "camp check" to find out who was at what camp, you move on and check again for another camp. Or you invite someone to group, needing the same mob to complete whatever mission they are doing. I realize that perhaps in other games, particularly those modern MMOs this wasn't even a thing that people did. If we have some old school gamers in Pantheon, perhaps that will be a thing again, all depends what kind of community we end up with. Those of us who practiced these things, can try setting the "good example" maybe it will catch on, maybe it won't.
I would like to see us band together as a community and make sure camp checks are relevant again.
That is something that we can agree to prerelease and make happen starting in testing. If the precedence is set, and it becomes the norm, others will have to follow suit.
Is that something others are in favor of?
Goes along with my idea of making sure newbies get the help they need when first starting up with Pantheon. We did this in Saga of Ryzom (European game 2004ish) some of us would sit in the General Chat and answer questions, helpful advice that sort of thing. I used to do this from time to time. :) Promotes community and encourages people to stick around. :)
Xxar said:I do see the point you are making , in essence we are talking for the point of talking.
I think seeing the FAQ updated and or things that need to be debated from a dev might be helpful.
I do have a concern that even with the updated FAQ, we could still run into the same issue. Let's say for example that one of the questions in the FAQ is whether or not an AH will be implemented. Let's assume they say yes, and that it will be localized to be more closely aligned with how they want banking to be done. Once we get to that point, then what? If we know an AH is going to be in the game, does that mean the topic is considered a closed case, and that they have a definitive plan on how they are going to implement it? Or should we speculate on ideas that could improve/innovate the AH experience? I'm sure VR has their reasons for being so ambiguous with things ... it definitely adds to the mystery of the game. At the same time, I have seen quite a few examples where Kilsin or someone from the dev team would comment on a thread and help us understand that they have a particular vision in mind that they want to try out before even considering any kind of alternative. Another good example is the "name reveal thread." I would love to see a list that compiles as many of these "settled" topics as possible. I think we would all have a broader understanding of their vision and we could also spend our time more efficiently when it comes time to decide which conversations we choose to participate in or what areas of gameplay we would want to share ideas on.
Beefcake said:Kilsin regularly comes into many of these topics, like he did a while ago with this one, and tells us it is already settled.
But, we still stay and argue. We don't seem to get the picture.
I often need to check if my GM invis is still on when I post on these forums in some of these threads!
The more info we release the better understanding people will have but in the meantime, I don't know where all of this opinion based arguing is coming from, it really is mind boggling.
I cannot wait until we move from these "development based" forums to the new "game based" forums, I think that shift in mentality will help drive it home and people can just enjoy the hard work we have done over the last 3 years using all of the information and feedback we have received on these forums and just enjoy the results of that cooperation and information we release instead of trying to analyse, pick apart and write essays on "why they think there is a problem with X system, Y mechanic or Z feature..." when in actual fact they are basing it off a severe lack of information, opinions/preferences or 10-20-year-old experiences with other games that are not related to Pantheon. ;)
We are making a game that we want to play and we really think you will all enjoy it, but we are not taking feedback on a lot of things anymore as they have already been implemented with the communities help over the years, there is no more room to change many of the things that have already been discussed on these development forums, it is now time for us to push forward into the first testing phase so we can test all of your ideas and suggestions out that we have worked hard to implement into our game! :)
If these threads continue to drift off topic and into opinionated arguments I will just end up closing them one after the other until there is nothing left to talk about! So it is in people's best interest to take a breath, take a break and just chill, you can have a different opinion than others and still continue on with life, nothing will blow up or cave in, it doesn't mean that we will implement their idea just to make you suffer in pain and torment until the end of days, it is just an opinion, everyone is entitled to one but that doesn;t make it right or better than yours or fact, it is just an opinion...
People need to relax :)
Kilsin said:We are making a game that we want to play and we really think you will all enjoy it, but we are not taking feedback on a lot of things anymore as they have already been implemented with the communities help over the years, there is no more room to change many of the things that have already been discussed on these development forums, it is now time for us to push forward into the first testing phase so we can test all of your ideas and suggestions out that we have worked hard to implement into our game! :)
Couldnt resist quoting this out of context. (Sorry Kils, see you guys when the ban is lifted :p )
Remember when joining a guild was a hard core interview with a sponser and a week of raiding with no chance of loot because you were an applicant? I wonder if todays method of inviting someone to the guild because they are breathing and willing is going to be the norm in pantheon or if the oldschool community will prevail. I just dont see the 16 - 25 crowd even understanding the thought process we had back then. Community is what will dictate actions and actions will dictate community. I just hope that the community I want is the same community everyone else wants.
dorotea said:>inviting someone to the guild because they are breathing and willing<
Not many guilds are this fussy anymore. One of these two is enough in most cases and some guilds don't bother with either.
The guild I co-ran with another person, in the original Guild Wars, had as a prerequisite that you had to have a sense of humor. We were a pvp guild. Sometimes we pvped with our armor off. (We were called The District Nudists (we were a guild that started in beta) in those days lol) Everything was done with a sense of fun. People had to submit an application to join. We (the guild) voted either yea or nay ..depending what the application said. I don't think there's anything wrong with people having to submit an application. As opposed to the "drive-by" guild and group invites that we see today.
And to bring this back to the thread we're in "We are making a game that we want to play and we really think you will all enjoy it, but we are not taking feedback on a lot of things anymore as they have already been implemented with the communities help over the years, there is no more room to change many of the things that have already been discussed on these development forums, it is now time for us to push forward into the first testing phase so we can test all of your ideas and suggestions out that we have worked hard to implement into our game! :) -end quote.
Duly noted, thanks Kilsin. :)
Kilsin said:Beefcake said:Kilsin regularly comes into many of these topics, like he did a while ago with this one, and tells us it is already settled.
But, we still stay and argue. We don't seem to get the picture.
I often need to check if my GM invis is still on when I post on these forums in some of these threads!
The more info we release the better understanding people will have but in the meantime, I don't know where all of this opinion based arguing is coming from, it really is mind boggling.
I cannot wait until we move from these "development based" forums to the new "game based" forums, I think that shift in mentality will help drive it home and people can just enjoy the hard work we have done over the last 3 years using all of the information and feedback we have received on these forums and just enjoy the results of that cooperation and information we release instead of trying to analyse, pick apart and write essays on "why they think there is a problem with X system, Y mechanic or Z feature..." when in actual fact they are basing it off a severe lack of information, opinions/preferences or 10-20-year-old experiences with other games that are not related to Pantheon. ;)
We are making a game that we want to play and we really think you will all enjoy it, but we are not taking feedback on a lot of things anymore as they have already been implemented with the communities help over the years, there is no more room to change many of the things that have already been discussed on these development forums, it is now time for us to push forward into the first testing phase so we can test all of your ideas and suggestions out that we have worked hard to implement into our game! :)
If these threads continue to drift off topic and into opinionated arguments I will just end up closing them one after the other until there is nothing left to talk about! So it is in people's best interest to take a breath, take a break and just chill, you can have a different opinion than others and still continue on with life, nothing will blow up or cave in, it doesn't mean that we will implement their idea just to make you suffer in pain and torment until the end of days, it is just an opinion, everyone is entitled to one but that doesn;t make it right or better than yours or fact, it is just an opinion...
People need to relax :)
You got jokes, Mr. Aaron Rodgers. You can't have the most anticipated MMO of 2017 and honestly expect people to relax, man! The hype train is real ... and the longer we go without having concrete updates, the more we suffer from pain and torment until they get here. You see what you can do about getting that new FAQ published and we'll see what we can do about taking a breath, taking a break and chilling. =D
In all seriousness ... I do agree that the shift to regular game forums will be very beneficial to all of us. When were those coming again? I kid, I kid. =D
Maximis said:Kilsin said:We are making a game that we want to play and we really think you will all enjoy it, but we are not taking feedback on a lot of things anymore as they have already been implemented with the communities help over the years, there is no more room to change many of the things that have already been discussed on these development forums, it is now time for us to push forward into the first testing phase so we can test all of your ideas and suggestions out that we have worked hard to implement into our game! :)
Couldnt resist quoting this out of context. (Sorry Kils, see you guys when the ban is lifted :p )
Remember when joining a guild was a hard core interview with a sponser and a week of raiding with no chance of loot because you were an applicant? I wonder if todays method of inviting someone to the guild because they are breathing and willing is going to be the norm in pantheon or if the oldschool community will prevail. I just dont see the 16 - 25 crowd even understanding the thought process we had back then. Community is what will dictate actions and actions will dictate community. I just hope that the community I want is the same community everyone else wants.
I do remember those days very well and have been on the end of some nervous waiting to find out my fate on whether I will be accepted or not before I took over and started leading guilds/raids but let's keep it on topic of Mob Tagging/Stealing, please :)
oneADseven said:Kilsin said:Beefcake said:Kilsin regularly comes into many of these topics, like he did a while ago with this one, and tells us it is already settled.
But, we still stay and argue. We don't seem to get the picture.
I often need to check if my GM invis is still on when I post on these forums in some of these threads!
The more info we release the better understanding people will have but in the meantime, I don't know where all of this opinion based arguing is coming from, it really is mind boggling.
I cannot wait until we move from these "development based" forums to the new "game based" forums, I think that shift in mentality will help drive it home and people can just enjoy the hard work we have done over the last 3 years using all of the information and feedback we have received on these forums and just enjoy the results of that cooperation and information we release instead of trying to analyse, pick apart and write essays on "why they think there is a problem with X system, Y mechanic or Z feature..." when in actual fact they are basing it off a severe lack of information, opinions/preferences or 10-20-year-old experiences with other games that are not related to Pantheon. ;)
We are making a game that we want to play and we really think you will all enjoy it, but we are not taking feedback on a lot of things anymore as they have already been implemented with the communities help over the years, there is no more room to change many of the things that have already been discussed on these development forums, it is now time for us to push forward into the first testing phase so we can test all of your ideas and suggestions out that we have worked hard to implement into our game! :)
If these threads continue to drift off topic and into opinionated arguments I will just end up closing them one after the other until there is nothing left to talk about! So it is in people's best interest to take a breath, take a break and just chill, you can have a different opinion than others and still continue on with life, nothing will blow up or cave in, it doesn't mean that we will implement their idea just to make you suffer in pain and torment until the end of days, it is just an opinion, everyone is entitled to one but that doesn;t make it right or better than yours or fact, it is just an opinion...
People need to relax :)
You got jokes, Mr. Aaron Rodgers. You can't have the most anticipated MMO of 2017 and honestly expect people to relax, man! The hype train is real ... and the longer we go without having concrete updates, the more we suffer from pain and torment until they get here. You see what you can do about getting that new FAQ published and we'll see what we can do about taking a breath, taking a break and chilling. =D
In all seriousness ... I do agree that the shift to regular game forums will be very beneficial to all of us. When were those coming again? I kid, I kid. =D
We give concrete updates with things that we have implemented or have enough to talk about but making games is a very hard and time-consuming process, a lot harder than people think. ;)
The FAQ is already beefed up compared to what it was man, we are just adding another chunk of questions/answers to make it even better, hopefully over the next week or two and the new forums are 75% done but that last 25% is time-consuming code, permission groups, HTML, account-based security, eCommerce etc. so there is no ETA other than we are working very hard on it as we want them more than you folks! :)