Wellspring said:This is a complicated topic, and one that hopefully they can tweak after alpha feedback.
Personally, I will be playing on the PvP server, so kill stealing isn't going to really be an issue when you can simply attack the person(s) trying to steal your mob.
However, I do feel that the EQ1 dps race system was fair.
I do not like games that lock mobs to groups. That in my opinion can create much worse griefing scenarios than the dps race situation. With locked mobs, you open up small groups to being able to steal from big groups. For instance, a big raid clears to a boss, but before they can engage a group of 3 players walks up and tags the boss and either:
- Takes their time and kills it slowly over a long period of time (while the raid group must watch and hope the griefers wipe),
- Kites the mob around endlessly, or until more friends can show up (while the raid group must watch and hope the griefers wipe).
I don't advocate for a tagging system. There are better ways to handle things. As I've said in many posts, this won't be a huge issue in the small content outside of say rare spawn Epic Quest type stuff which they can always change around and have the bottle necks for those quests be something different. The general campable content won't be what is affected by the majority of these issues.
The issues are going to arise on raid mobs. Especially if there is a system where you need to kill x, y, z mobs to key in order to get to the next tier ones.
An easier way to handle raid mobs would be to drastically shorten the spawn time and give all of the raid involved a lockout for X amount of days. Some will say that this will allow too much loot into the economy but that again is an easy fix. Lock the majority of raid mob loot to BoP with a few of the rare drops being tradeable. The lockouts wouldn't prevent them from being able to kill the mob again but if they did they would not receive any loot for it. This would kill the "need" to get to the mobs first and if a guild really wants to consistantly block others, then they do so without getting loot for it.
Wellspring said:This is a complicated topic, and one that hopefully they can tweak after alpha feedback.
Personally, I will be playing on the PvP server, so kill stealing isn't going to really be an issue when you can simply attack the person(s) trying to steal your mob.
However, I do feel that the EQ1 dps race system was fair.
I do not like games that lock mobs to groups. That in my opinion can create much worse griefing scenarios than the dps race situation. With locked mobs, you open up small groups to being able to steal from big groups. For instance, a big raid clears to a boss, but before they can engage a group of 3 players walks up and tags the boss and either:
- Takes their time and kills it slowly over a long period of time (while the raid group must watch and hope the griefers wipe),
- Kites the mob around endlessly, or until more friends can show up (while the raid group must watch and hope the griefers wipe).
To this point, it's why my recommendation has been one of two things, regarding training, KS'ing, and so on.
1) If you FD and ARE SUCCESSFUL, you are hit once by each mob you trained, before those mobs return to their pathing back activity. You must also remain FD, IF SUCCESSFUL, for a minimum of 30 seconds / 1 minute. Then you can stand up.
2) For every mob you are on a hate list of, but have not damaged, you are snared 10%. Or a sliding scale like 10% for the first, +20% for the second, +25% for the third, then +50% for every one after that, very rapidly approaching 100% . The values could also vary based on indoor/outdoor zones. (outdoor zones maybe the values being half)
The goal? If you're trying to escape, you might outrun one patroller or one random wolf chasing you. But if you are trying to drag an entire zone, camp, room or floor to maliciously train? You're gonna die snared. And there's no exceptions. No tricky I'm going to DA train out. No. You gate, use Origin, or you fight out. That's it. ( ESPECIALLY BARDS and any FD classes. ) Also, increase the stun rate and crit rate when your back is turned to more than one mob, up to 100% when the number is appropriate to meet the design goals.
I've seen one Bard train 75% of the plane of Fear onto one small guild trying to get their first Wizard his Epic. Just because he could. Should never be possible. Should never happen. Bad design, and being designed into Pantheon. /me is concerned.
And to those who will jump to VR's defense, and say " But But but... they would NEVER design that ". Ok, right now, training and KS'ing are in Pantheon. Brad and potentially others in VR are intimately familiar with original EQ, and at least he was involved in that original ks'ing/training design, and fully supported that design in the past. Every post and video they have ever made on these topics gives complete confidence that malicious no-leash-length trains and KS'ing will be possible in every zone in the game. Awesome, right? (No, not really)
And to VR? If that is NOT the design goal, tell us exactly how you plan to address it. If you don't have even the most hazy nebulous outline of a plan to address these toxic community issues that you can share NOW, it WILL happen. Just like it happened and continues to happen every day in EQ1, 17 years later.
Frankly? Today, I don't care about the animations, the zone sizes, the graphics, the assets, the weather, the colors, the particle effects or any of that. Address the problems made 17 years ago, and I'll be impressed with Pantheon. How? Example: Tell us leash lengths won't be infinite. Tell us all dialog NPC's involved in lore, plot, epic, skill or spell quests will be in private instances or invulnerable. Then I'll be impressed.
vjek said:In the past three months in TLP EQ, I've personally seen with my own eyes:
Again, I'll re-iterate it for those that didn't read all that:
Today, on TLP EQ1, people cannot complete Epic Quests because other players kill Epic Quest turn-in mobs maliciously and out of ignorance.
Today, on TLP EQ1, people cannot complete normal run-of-the-mill average quests, because other players kill NPC's that need to be interacted with or talked to for less than 5 seconds to complete that quest.
For hours, days, and weeks at a time. Not just a few minutes or hours. Continuously. If you want this in Pantheon, the niche for this game is extremely narrow indeed.
You cannot use the current status of an old, mature game such as EQ to justify what you believe will happen in Pantheon. EQ has been out for so long, most the real players have left. It's pretty much bots and farmers now, especially the TLP servers.
vjek said:Frankly? Today, I don't care about the animations, the zone sizes, the graphics, the assets, the weather, the colors, the particle effects or any of that. Address the problems made 17 years ago, and I'll be impressed with Pantheon. How? Example: Tell us leash lengths won't be infinite. Tell us all dialog NPC's involved in lore, plot, epic, skill or spell quests will be in private instances or invulnerable. Then I'll be impressed.
If this is what you want, I do not think you will like Pantheon.
They have said many times that this game is not for everyone. I hope you choose to stay and enjoy the game that will be, but I do not think it will meet your list.
Riply said:Not exactly a fair comparison between a game in its twilight hours, that has been sold off twice, turned into a cash shop, with little to no support by Daybreak....and a new game in which Brad has already expressed an interest in dedictated GM and Guide support.
I don't know if you played early EQ1 but it did very much have a GM/Guide system that would actively handle disputes, if and when they happened. That's what they are there for, to help the community. Heck I remember even having an arguement with a GM over rights to a boss mob.....entire guild was ported to Plane of Hate without notice, we wiped but learned a little.
The entire point is to allow people to make mistakes and learn from them. Putting handrails on everything for the sake of preventing your feelings from being hurt does nothing but water down the game as a whole.
Exactly. So much doom and gloom on these forums. I have hope for this game and the community. I am going to give it the benefit of the doubt first.
Casual kill stealing from groups working there way through an open dungeon is acceptable and going to happen. Competition between guilds for raid mobs is going to happen and should be encouraged. The only thing that should be stopped is the intentional and on-going griefing by one set of people against another. That is where the community steps in.
Lets give the community a chance to do its job before we declare it impotent and disfunctional. That is the only time additional systems are necessary.
If you want instanced content, this game is probably not what you are looking for.
Enitzu said:Feyshtey said:And what avenue is employed for grievences?
If there was no complaint made to the developer, it's on you.
There is no way to complain when it was stated before the server launched that devs/gm's would not handle disputes in these cases. They do not have the manpower to cover all of the grievances caused by players. It would be a full time job for 20-30 people easily to handle these things and sort through right and wrong. Needs to be something in place to stop alot of the non sense without involving GMs every couple hours
Sorry, but I dont buy your angle here for a second.
First, when the game is in alpha and then beta, there will be a few thousand people playing. Not tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands. Particularly in a closed alpha/beta where people have put forth notable sums of money, they tend to have a much more polite and mature posture. This forum is (usually) a case study in that assertion. People are (usually) fairly curteous and have adult discussions. Hell, these forums are proof that one guy (Kilsin) can and will monitor and intervene when necessary without becoming overloaded.
Second, while I know you think KS'ing is something that runs rampant and there are a dozen cases an hour on a particular server shard, the reality is that its fairly infrequent that GMs/Guides actually get tickets to review when the outcome of those tickets is unpleasant to the offenders that were the catalyst for the ticket. When there is action taken, potentially strong action depending on the scale of a particular instance, then those tickets dwindle rapidly because people learn that it isnt tolerated. Or better yet, the ***hats are removed entirely. Word spreads. People stop being stupid, for the most part.
Third, if there's a guide program than all the first tier stupidity can be handled by volunteers, not paid GMs. People with bugs, stuck movement, etc, can be assisted by those volunteers, and they can kick the jerks up the line to people who are paid to deal with it. Given that this game is supposed to be designed with socialization and competition in mind, it's not a leap of imagination to consider that VR has budgeted for staff for this type of game. Hell, Brad ran this type of game and knows full well what it looks like. I think he can handle it.
Fourth, comparing anything to a game like modern EQ is asinine. Daybreak has all but abandoned EQ except in the case of some fruity little gimmick to drain more coin from your pocket. They dont appear to give a crap about the quality of experience so long as a constantly rolling stream of F2P people will buy a bunch of power while playing for a few weeks before quitting and moving on. The fact that they (and Sony before them) don't police the playerbase at all anymore shouldnt really come as a shock to anyone, and that game in its current state is certainly isnt remotely evidence of how a well run game is deployed.
why is it always just most %damage% that gets the loot? why not highest average of %damage% %healing/damage taken% etc... or just %hate generated%?
also in your example of shareing the loot between the 2 groups that did enough damage would it be like.. group A and group B did (say the requirement was 45% damage) 49 and 51% respectively... the mobs item has 50% drop rate so group A has 23% chance at it and group B has 27% or would each have maybe 40 or even 50%?
pendragen said:why is it always just most %damage% that gets the loot? why not highest average of %damage% %healing/damage taken% etc... or just %hate he 2 groups that did
I don't think hate would work, assuming there are positional taunts.
I like idea of combining healing and such, but that would have to be determined at the mob level, which I believe usually only tracks healing as hate generated.
If there were no positional taunts, hate would work equally well as DPS, I think.
pendragen said:why is it always just most %damage% that gets the loot? why not highest average of %damage% %healing/damage taken% etc... or just %hate generated%?
also in your example of shareing the loot between the 2 groups that did enough damage would it be like.. group A and group B did (say the requirement was 45% damage) 49 and 51% respectively... the mobs item has 50% drop rate so group A has 23% chance at it and group B has 27% or would each have maybe 40 or even 50%?
What problem does that even solve? It's the exact same thing as the most damage, except if someone wanted to kill steal your mob, then they would bring tanks and healers to spam heal and taunt.
Splitting the reward based on damage dealt is not a good idea either. That would flat out give everyone the ability to kill steal. If they do 10% of the damage, they get a 10% chance of the loot... yikes!
Some of these ideas are just needlessly complicating the mechanic, without solving any issues. And many introduce even more problems.
Keep it simple IMO.
Jimmayus said:So I remembered something from school when reading the last few posts, and I thought you guys might be amused by the knowledge that the U.S. justice system itself disagrees with "time spent camping" as a metric for ownership: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierson_v._Post
I know it's comparing apples to ambulances but it's just funny how these arguments are universal.
That's funny and all, but it's also false equivalence as you pointed out. In EQ, clearing an area and setting up camp was more analogous to a farmer clearing a plot of land, and waiting for crops to sprout and having someone stroll up and eat them, than it is contending for random game in the wild.
I don't care how many people cite an eastern title where kill stealing was part of some proud warrior culture, it's quite plainly stealing by western ethics. There are exceptions of course, like mobs on long timers, but when a group of people are actively working to clear an area and spawn a mob, they logically and ethically have the rights to it over someone that strolls up having not put in the time.
Wellspring said:What problem does that even solve? It's the exact same thing as the most damage, except if someone wanted to kill steal your mob, then they would bring tanks and healers to spam heal and taunt.
Splitting the reward based on damage dealt is not a good idea either. That would flat out give everyone the ability to kill steal. If they do 10% of the damage, they get a 10% chance of the loot... yikes!
Some of these ideas are just needlessly complicating the mechanic, without solving any issues. And many introduce even more problems.
Keep it simple IMO.
well it would let the healers and tank in the normal group help in keeping the kill over the all damage group? And if it was a normal group vs a normal group the 1st one there if they are at the same level/gear would mean that they would have a better chance..
I never said that was my idea i was just asking if that was what op was suggesting... also what in what i said someone that did 10% would not get a 10% chance at the cut. There would be a threshold of say 40% required..
Honestly, there are going to be massive complaints of KSing no matter what system you use and the community team better be prepared for that as the more ambiguous the rules the more people will attempt to cheat others. Camps are going to be attempted and ignored/respected. It's the players not the rules that will be the problem. Majority will rule in the end so we'll see what is considered 'just' in Pantheon it may not be what you think it is with the mixing of new and old.
Personally I'm going to follow my own code of honor under the game rules as stated. I will play to win and compete as needed to get my group/guild what it needs to progress and have fun. I don't expect anything less from anyone else.
OK fine so somone explain to me how many times in a row Im I expected to walk away when I do a camp check and its continuously occupied? 2 days? 5? A month? At what point do play nice rules wear thin?
Also what if the Named spawns for the other group and they kill it. Does my group then step in, or does the first group get to keep camping the named for as long as they want?
Amsai said:OK fine so somone explain to me how many times in a row Im I expected to walk away when I do a camp check and its continuously occupied? 2 days? 5? A month? At what point do play nice rules wear thin?
Also what if the Named spawns for the other group and they kill it. Does my group then step in, or does the first group get to keep camping the named for as long as they want?
WTF does that have to do with kill stealing? Unless you're suggesting that only the group with the greatest power/most friends gets to own the spawn?
Amsai said:OK fine so somone explain to me how many times in a row Im I expected to walk away when I do a camp check and its continuously occupied? 2 days? 5? A month? At what point do play nice rules wear thin?
Also what if the Named spawns for the other group and they kill it. Does my group then step in, or does the first group get to keep camping the named for as long as they want?
Im not entirely sure how this has anything to do with kill stealing but more so a question on how camps work.
If Pantheon works out anything like EQ1 did, there should be multiple camp areas in a given zone and you would /ooc LFG or /ooc Camp check to see whats available. If the camp you want to be at is occupied, you ask to be put on the list for the next spot that comes available.
To you second question....thats pretty subjective, we are not talking a WoW type game where the mob will spawn every five minutes, it could be really rare, meaning hours or days. Obviously most people will not be at the camp for days, but if it is good exp and the potential to make some money, then yes they will stay for hours. That is the entire point of a camp....to stay in one spot, not move and continuously gain exp/money from said camp until the group splits up. Also, factor in a mobs loot table, its very possible that more then one member of a group needs/wants an item from the loot table, obviously they are going to want to stick around and attempt to get the named to appear again for other members of the group. But really, this isnt all bad, groups lose members on a regular basis due to whatever reason, get your name on the list and may end up taking someones spot in no time. If you do not have the kind of patience needed to wait your turn I really think this style of MMORPG is going to drive you nuts down the line.
Keep in mind one of the things the Devs are trying to achieve with this game again is to create an sense of achievement and uniqueness again, part of that is not giving everyone their participation price sword, drops are going to be hard to get, some really hard. We have really side tracked the conversation on KSing, but I will add that if there are enough camps available, in enough zones of a particular level range....and you are somewhat flexable in your goals, you should be able to have meaningful group time regardless of said named mob camp. We always had several very appealing camps that people wanted to be in for whatever reason, so if you did not get into the one you wanted specifically, you ended up in another good camp.
Dullahan said:Jimmayus said:So I remembered something from school when reading the last few posts, and I thought you guys might be amused by the knowledge that the U.S. justice system itself disagrees with "time spent camping" as a metric for ownership: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierson_v._Post
I know it's comparing apples to ambulances but it's just funny how these arguments are universal.
That's funny and all, but it's also false equivalence as you pointed out. In EQ, clearing an area and setting up camp was more analogous to a farmer clearing a plot of land, and waiting for crops to sprout and having someone stroll up and eat them, than it is contending for random game in the wild.
I don't care how many people cite an eastern title where kill stealing was part of some proud warrior culture, it's quite plainly stealing by western ethics. There are exceptions of course, like mobs on long timers, but when a group of people are actively working to clear an area and spawn a mob, they logically and ethically have the rights to it over someone that strolls up having not put in the time.
Uhm........ Farmers own their land. So this argument doesn't work here.
While we each play Pantheon....... We each don't own anything. It is the sole property of VR. We dont even own our characters so how could we possible own a mob or camp. This is why KS is not a problem at all. Sure players should respect one another and take a look at all situations before taking action. That would be the adult thing to do. But in the end I always say.... Let's all have fun and remember that VR has already pointed out a lot of times that this game will not be for everyone. Some will absolutly not like some mechanics that are placed into the game and leave because of it.
I for one am all for KSing mechanics. Not because I'm someone who would abuse them but because I dont like games controlling everything we/I do. Please give us/me the options to play as I see fit. I dont need to be corralled like an animal.
~Pyde
@Feyshtey
Im not implying anything other than I dont understand the rules of engaegment. Answer me like you would someone who never played EQ, you know because I never did..... As to how it relates. I dont want to get on the bad side of the community. Maybe some of you think its my intent to be a troll or cause trouble? But as Ive said before there are different game cultures. And I dont know the ins and outs of EQs invisible rules. So I would like examples of what to do in specific cases as it relates to Named. Like I said earlier in the example above is it my turn after a mob spawns or not. If I claim it after they get a shot at it would that still be considered KSing or my turn?
@Riply
Your answer started off somewhat helpful, but then seemed to trail off into what type of game I may or may not be suited for. So redirecting the same thing I just said to Feyshtey above. Also about this list. Is that a player thing or a GM thing? Just in case you werent aware, FFXI had 4, 6, 8, 16, 24, 48, and 72 hour respawns. They also have a few that were lottery spawns off of place holders that could be a couple of hours or could be randomly between 2-17 hours after Named death. So Im pretty familiar with waiting on spawns while camping Named. But what that usually entailed was camping against others. Not waiting on others. I was asking specifically how long I am to wait. For instance I get home every day at 5PM, my group goes to Named X. But your group is there already, just like you have been for the past 4 weeks in a row and you camp it all night every night. And all this time I have done a camp check and moved on. I have asked to be on this list you speak of but our turn to camp never comes. And lets say its an 8 hour spawn. Im perfectly fine camping an 8 hour spawn. What I am apprehensive of is indefinitely moving aside for others and never even getting the chance to camp an 8 hour spawn even once because of play nice rules. Or as I said to Feyshtey, maybe I just dont understand EQ play nice rules. Maybe you guys are giving the overall idea but not giving enough of the minor details?
Pyde said:I for one am all for KSing mechanics. Not because I'm someone who would abuse them but because I dont like games controlling everything we/I do. Please give us/me the options to play as I see fit. I dont need to be corralled like an animal.
There's a stark line between mechanics that prevent freedom within the game, and allowing anarchy and griefing. I personaly side with you in the former, but I sincerely hope that repeated KSing and griefing (one and the same, IMO) results in a ban.
Amsai said:@Riply
Your answer started off somewhat helpful, but then seemed to trail off into what type of game I may or may not be suited for. So redirecting the same thing I just said to Feyshtey above. Also about this list. Is that a player thing or a GM thing? Just in case you werent aware, FFXI had 4, 6, 8, 16, 24, 48, and 72 hour respawns. They also have a few that were lottery spawns off of place holders that could be a couple of hours or could be randomly between 2-17 hours after Named death. So Im pretty familiar with waiting on spawns while camping Named. But what that usually entailed was camping against others. Not waiting on others. I was asking specifically how long I am to wait. For instance I get home every day at 5PM, my group goes to Named X. But your group is there already, just like you have been for the past 4 weeks in a row and you camp it all night every night. And all this time I have done a camp check and moved on. I have asked to be on this list you speak of but our turn to camp never comes. And lets say its an 8 hour spawn. Im perfectly fine camping an 8 hour spawn. What I am apprehensive of is indefinitely moving aside for others and never even getting the chance to camp an 8 hour spawn even once because of play nice rules. Or as I said to Feyshtey, maybe I just dont understand EQ play nice rules. Maybe you guys are giving the overall idea but not giving enough of the minor details?
I want to first appologize if I came off rude or condescending in any way, I absolutely think it is vital to have people interested in Pantheon that did NOT play EQ1, just for a different perspective. With that being said I don't always agree with others opinions but always respect them.
Anyway.....More of what I was trying to get at is the fact that you may never get "X" named mob or his drops, thats the nature of an open contested world. With enough time and persistence your probability of getting said drop goes way up. But one of the magical things about early MMOs such as EQ1 was diversity of items found on players across the game world. Some items were obtained by persistance in the form of camping, others through sheer luck (happened to be right place right time) and others were acuired via a barter system. I mention the barter system specifically because it also provides a means for those who cannot get a named mob or where not lucky enough to get the loot they wanted from a name mob, when they were camping it, a way to obtain the item from other players. This concept is important to the over all camping idea, if you cannot get into the camp you really want, maybe you can camp something else and potentially sell the items from that camp as a means to barter for the one you really want. That idea is also exactly why some people will sit in certain camps longer then you would like them to, they have items they want and cannot obtain for whatever reason. These type of barter interactions are very important as there are many reasons we may not be able to camp the exact named mob we really want. For example we may have a very limited play time and our real life dictates we play at non-peak play times, at least a portion of our time online. Maybe it makes more sense at that point to farm something slightly less challenging. that requires maybe a two person group instead of a full group, just so we can take those items and sell them and get what item we really wanted.
I know there is not a perfect answer for the feeling of frustration from not being able to get an item you really want, but I feel that also drives the feeling of accomplishment once you do obtain that item, or something better. From playing modern MMOs I personally have no desire to play another that litterally every (insert class type) looks exactly the same, with the same gear. Part of fixing that issue entails being frustrated at times and the possibility that I may ultimately never get said item. I think the key to this and the balancing act that the developers must play, is to offer enough other "carrot on the stick" items, that you always can work towards something and achieve success in some way.
Pyde said:I for one am all for KSing mechanics. Not because I'm someone who would abuse them but because I dont like games controlling everything we/I do. Please give us/me the options to play as I see fit. I dont need to be corralled like an animal.
You really think that rules mean you're being "controlled like an animal"? This logic just doesn't hold up.
You claim you won't personally violate rules, therefor no rules are necessary? Please.
Amsai said:@Feyshtey
Im not implying anything other than I dont understand the rules of engaegment. Answer me like you would someone who never played EQ, you know because I never did..... As to how it relates. I dont want to get on the bad side of the community. Maybe some of you think its my intent to be a troll or cause trouble? But as Ive said before there are different game cultures. And I dont know the ins and outs of EQs invisible rules. So I would like examples of what to do in specific cases as it relates to Named. Like I said earlier in the example above is it my turn after a mob spawns or not. If I claim it after they get a shot at it would that still be considered KSing or my turn?
@Riply
Your answer started off somewhat helpful, but then seemed to trail off into what type of game I may or may not be suited for. So redirecting the same thing I just said to Feyshtey above. Also about this list. Is that a player thing or a GM thing? Just in case you werent aware, FFXI had 4, 6, 8, 16, 24, 48, and 72 hour respawns. They also have a few that were lottery spawns off of place holders that could be a couple of hours or could be randomly between 2-17 hours after Named death. So Im pretty familiar with waiting on spawns while camping Named. But what that usually entailed was camping against others. Not waiting on others. I was asking specifically how long I am to wait. For instance I get home every day at 5PM, my group goes to Named X. But your group is there already, just like you have been for the past 4 weeks in a row and you camp it all night every night. And all this time I have done a camp check and moved on. I have asked to be on this list you speak of but our turn to camp never comes. And lets say its an 8 hour spawn. Im perfectly fine camping an 8 hour spawn. What I am apprehensive of is indefinitely moving aside for others and never even getting the chance to camp an 8 hour spawn even once because of play nice rules. Or as I said to Feyshtey, maybe I just dont understand EQ play nice rules. Maybe you guys are giving the overall idea but not giving enough of the minor details?
@Amsai let me help a little here. Im just going to use my individual past experiences.
Amsai said " Like I said earlier in the example above is it my turn after a mob spawns or not " Pyde says " Its anyones turn who is at said named mob or mob" No one owns the mob/camp or zone. Now there is some underlying factors here. For instance if you just logged in and ran with a group to a bottom of a cleared dungeon where you find another group clearing the last mob to a named. I would out of sheer consideration and kindness not run in and attack the named. Knowing this group has cleared / done all the hard work to get to said named. Now personally, I draw the line at.... We are both in the zone clearing mobs around this named and it pops. At that point it is going to be a race. My group against yours as to who gets the loot/kill credit. (DPS Race) This second experience is the one that I have seen the most confusion about in the past. The group that doesn't get the credit is infurriated. (I have been on both sides of this) As a group member / generally honorable player of the community I have always tried my best to diffuse these situations. There is really no fix all to this second experience. There are plenty of more experiences I have had and I will share another example. I have been in lower level groups grinding out dungeons to get to a named or two when a really high level player comes along as you are clearing the last couple of trash to a named and kills it. This is the point where I have always reached out to the player/community depending on the attitude of the player. Example
1. Sent tell to high level player
2. High level player responds with " Sucks to be you "
3. Sent tell to guild leader of his guild.
4. Guild leader says " We will take care of this "
5. Receive tell from guild leader apologizing
6. Receive tell from player " Where do you want to meet and ill give you the loot "
7. Problem solved by community.
This Scenario is just one of many I have dealt with over 2 decades of playing MMO's not just EQ. And it can go many different ways. But this is one example of how the community does help and band to gether when needed. We just need to communicate with one another.
I personally believe that Kill Stealing (Not sure I like that term) is a good thing that 98% of the time promotes healthy competetion in a PvE game. It adds excitement, at least it does for me.
I also want to add that over the years there have only been a handful of times that this has actually affected me. And only a couple of those turned out sour.
@Amsai
On your second question. I kinda answered it in my first example of my past experiences. No mob / zone is owned by anyone. If a group is there everynight for eons. Just run in and kill stuff till the named spawns and fight for it. There are no nice rules at that point. Its a competition that you and they dont want to lose. Hence why they will continue to camp that named for the next eon to get:
A) Plats
B) More Loots
C) What ever they are after
This example happens a lot in high tier areas where all the higher level players are farming loot. It's just going to boil down to a competition. Thats the excitment I mentioned earlier (At least for me). I would hope this group of players or guild of players that has been camping this area you want to be in for so long would understand that they are going to have competition no matter what. This is also what makes getting that item or items so rewarding.
I just want to add that all of this is just my experiences and my thoughts.
~Pyde
Liav said:Pyde said:I for one am all for KSing mechanics. Not because I'm someone who would abuse them but because I dont like games controlling everything we/I do. Please give us/me the options to play as I see fit. I dont need to be corralled like an animal.
You really think that rulse mean you're being "controlled like an animal"? This logic just doesn't hold up.
You claim you won't personally violate rules, therefor no rules are necessary? Please.
Hey Liav..... Please remind me to never group with you in-game. Just saying...... Everytime I post something you seem malicous.
This is the last time I respond to anything you post.
I will end with..... Live long and prosper !
Pyde said:Hey Liav..... Please remind me to never group with you in-game. Just saying...... Everytime I post something you seem malicous.
This is the last time I respond to anything you post.
I will end with..... Live long and prosper !
Lacking agreement isn't maliciousness.
Liav said:Pyde said:I for one am all for KSing mechanics. Not because I'm someone who would abuse them but because I dont like games controlling everything we/I do. Please give us/me the options to play as I see fit. I dont need to be corralled like an animal.
You really think that rulse mean you're being "controlled like an animal"? This logic just doesn't hold up.
You claim you won't personally violate rules, therefor no rules are necessary? Please.
Lol the same logic could be used against you.....You claim enough people will violate the rules to the point that everyones game experience will be negatively affected, therefor we must implement rules to govern people. You do realize that modern society does not generally implement laws until there is a precedent for doing so. I would argue that Pantheon is a new society in which you have no precedent to add additional rules to govern behavior that has yet to occur.
Pyde said:Example1. Sent tell to high level player
2. High level player responds with " Sucks to be you "
3. Sent tell to guild leader of his guild.
4. Guild leader says " We will take care of this "
5. Receive tell from guild leader apologizing
6. Receive tell from player " Where do you want to meet and ill give you the loot "
7. Problem solved by community.
This Scenario is just one of many I ha
~Pyde
It must be nice to continue living in 1999. If you think for a second that's how things will be now a days you're in for a very rude awakening. Example:
1. Send tell to high lvl player.
2. Player says "Lol better luck next time"
3. Send tell to guild leader.
4. Guild leader says "Sorry bro it's whoever does the most dmg per the game rules. Get better"
5. Complain in world chat about so and so and his guild.
6. World chat doesn't give 2 sh*ts tells you to suck it up.
7. If this was a new player he now either rage quits or begins the same type of attitude.
This is not 1999 and the community is not in any way the same it used to be. Now a days the majority of gamers are entitled little shits that grew up on CoD and WoW. Expecting them to police themselves is never going to happen. If what you guys want actually goes through I can assure you I'd be running the biggest guild of douchebags ever because I wouldn't let my guild members or myself be walked on. This is a disaster waiting to happen and thinking back to pre velious EQ and wanting that back is NEVER going to happen. Hell it couldn't even happen on P99 wtf makes you people think it's going to magically happen here??