@ Crazzie ... It boils down to one thing, disrespect to everyone but yourself. "A dont give a damn attitude" doesnt work with seasoned EQ players... i will warn you now if you try it.
I have a question , and do not take this offensive. Do you think that eq1 players are the only ones following this game ?
This is not EQ , this is Pantheon. I expect a ton of diffrent type of gamers to be here from damn near all the major titles be it FFXI , EQ1 , EQ2 , Rift, GW2, Vanguard and so on so forth.
With that being said , the mindset of the eq1 player will need to adapt this is not a EQ1 revamp.
I expect things to be very diffrent then EQ1 when it comes to social interaction and game fundemental's at a core level.
Until we know more about what the devs have planned it's really hard to throw in my 2 cents. Speculating on what might happen is a waste of time until then I think.
They have stated that they plan to go back to the old school way so I think it might be safe to say that they plan on doing it very similar to how everquest was run. Kind of the Wild West.
Don't make enemies that you don't want to keep for a long time and remember to treat people right because they will remember you, spread word about you and it will end up in the ears of respective guilds and since guilds like having a good reputation you wont get in and if youre already in - you might get the boot, because nobody wants to be associated with you.
Also keep in mind there wont be name changes so once people know who you are it's over for you.... You might try and play an alt but you can never go back to your main without being judged my multiple players and even if you're on an alt your account might still end up on peoples ignore list so even going that route might not be an alternative.
I have a feeling this game is going to be a hard lesson for trolls out there, they might still have their fun occasionally but I've seen guilds come together to ruin a troll's day before and I'm sure we will see it again.
oneADseven said:I see people complaining about poopsocking (never heard of this term before but see people use it all the time here) and suggesting that people like me don't have lives ... it's pretty funny. I busted my ass for many years to create a business that provides residual income and gives me the flexibility to spend my time how I want when I want. I go on vacation, have a family, run a business, provide employment ... I like to think that I have a great life ... being available for an OTM or 3 am phone call doesn't mean I am a basement dwelling loser. I have a life that allows me to do the things I enjoy the most. I am a very competitive person. I run fantasy football leagues ... host monthly poker tournaments at my house ... I like going to the casino and playing in cash games at the poker tables. I love that stuff. But I get the biggest thrill of all by playing an MMO. So when Pantheon comes out ... I will probably slow down with poker and fantasy sports if it is able to fulfill my desire to play a fun and competitive game.
That's great that you have the time to do that. But the majority of the world does not. If Pantheon drops and has similar playstyles to EQ, it will decimate the already small playerbase because of this reason. Competition isn't just about racing to a mob to kill it at 3am before anyone else can. What does that show? Competition is playing against the best. So if that's what people really want, cool. Make the servers operate by time zone and spawn raid bosses only during prime time. I could live with that. But claiming to be the best because you have unlimited time available means nothing because you are only competiting with yourself.
This is the reason why the EQ TLP servers even went to giving instances of the raid bosses. Because 1 guild of people that truely have no life, can lock down each and every boss with ease. Once they do that for even a couple of weeks, competition is no longer a thing. They out gear everyone else by a long shot. DPS racing, etc, is no longer a competition because no one can hold a candle. It's an outdated and obsolete system that really needs to be done away with. It's honestly the entire reason I won't be making a decision about a guild until we have definite answers. It's also the reason why I have ~8 friends sitting on the fence right now. If they go with the EQ style, none of them will bother wasting time with the game.
Simple server issue fix.
One server with instancing only for select raid content (or a pick system that phases a new copy of the zone per x amount of players or similar).
One non instanced PvP server...You want to honestly prove you're the best, top of the food chain high baller, then a scripted AI isn't enough challenge to you (unless you're really just deluding yourself about why you need to be the best of the best...Skill vs insecurity complex). If you want the real challenge fight live players while racing for the AI and it's last few HP. Last team standing gets loot.
This thread really does remind me how the block member feature doesn't work here.
I don't think the raid issue will affect me at all as I don't plan to raid. It's fine with me if only a small amount of people can do the raid content.
On that subject, I think we see too many people trying to be moderators in games these days. Negative experiences are just as important to a game as positive ones IMO. How can you have an adventure if everything is safe and nice? Kill stealing is something that helps create the idea of a dangerous world. If all you have to worry about is the mobs it can get fairly dull. Having to worry about other players interfering with your gaming experience gives it that wild west type of feeling. A lawless world where you have little control and are trying to survive.
I can see some people are very competitive and they only care if they can get the best loot and beat the top bosses. Hopefully, this game will have hard content throughout and not just the raid content like in other games. That is what EQ is all about. You can find challenging content solo, group, or raid.
I'll likely be taking my time and just enjoying the fact that there are no maps/GPS and I have to explore and find everything on my own.
As for tagging mobs? I don't know. I never had any issues in EQ with the 51% rule but I know a lot of people did and the amount of trolls have increased over the years. Locking a mob also doesn't bother me, and that EQ2 system sounds pretty good. I'm sure it will be good no matter what they go with.
For raids I'll copy my respone in the Server Rulesets thread:
I love the challenge/difficulty of EQ, the grind and grouping. I absolutely loathe having to fight other guilds for limited raid spawns, as they will almost always end up locked down by a mega guild or two until GM intervention. It's also entirely unappealing to those of us who work during the day and can't be there when raid mobs pop, yet are willing to put in the effort and time to raid otherwise. I don't really have any ideas as to how to handle this aside from lockout timers and fast respawns of raid content but wanting to raid and being unable to should be a thing of the past and only serves to drive many people away, far more I'd imagine than such a system serves. The other option is raids are instanced and all the gear from them is No Drop. There has to be a better way.
Also, from the FAQ:
...Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involve inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose what makes sense and what is needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game.
I never claimed that having the most time translates to being the best. There were plenty of times where we wouldn't be the first guild there ... the competing guild would rush their pull because they saw us forming up and they would die. We never competed against ourself. Every mob was truly contested ... other guilds ALWAYS showed up. We had more experience with the mobs so we had a much better chance of killing them. It'seems one of the main reasons we killed the contested mobs as fast as possible. We didn't want other guilds to get experience with the encounter. I am not saying this is what I want in Pantheon. To be honest I have seen enough of the 3 am phone calls in my life to be perfectly happy with never seeing them again. I was just pointing out that people who throw a fit about "poop socking" and assume that people have no life are just wrong. It's just stereotyping hardcore players as no life basement dwellers. I do dwell in my basement ... but it's more like a mancave. It was designed to be a place that I can comfortably spend my time playing video games, poker, or whatever else I feel like doing.
I am a hard core gamer and will be looking to get the most out the time I spend playing Pantheon. Hopefully VR creates a game where cutthroat ruthlessness isn't encouraged. I always felt bad for the guilds who never had a chance to experience the content that my guild kept locked down. If that's how the game is designed though .... it will happen. If the world is kill or be killed ... I will be the one doing the killing. When it comes to people flaming the hardcore players and throwing out ignorant comments that suggest that hardcover = no life ... get a reality check. Not everybody who has a ton of playtime is a kid living in mom's basement. There are plenty of mean things I could say or assume about people who don't have the luxury of high playtime but I will not stoop to that level. Stereo typing/labeling players because of their playtime just sounds like a desperate reach to me.
I really do enjoy competition but ultimately I would prefer a system where we can compete without cutting each others throats. If the respawns are fairly short then competition should be embraced. If they only spawn once a week ... that's the hard part. It's an extreme case of supply vs demand, with the once per week raid boss being in very short supply, and the hundreds of players wanting to kill it being the very large demand. If first come first serve principals are implemented, it will be survival of the fittest. Again, I hope VR has come up with innovative solutions to address this very real concern ... but I also hope to see a consistent form of competition. How will that be achieved?
Liav said:I see.
I don't really agree with that definition of kill stealing. Imo, kill stealing is attacking a mob that is already engaged in combat with someone and dealing more than 50% of the total damage, effectively taking credit for it. If you're not engaged with the mob, it's fair game to me, even if it might be "rude". In other words, FTE, or first to engage, is the only relevant consideration in who a mob "belongs to" in my opinion.
As far as camping, yeah, I agree with that definition. I just see nerds all the time, 17 years later, arguing about whether or not their group is pulling from too far outside of what is considered "their camp" in zones.
so lets say I am camping a particular spot killing the named placeholders to get the named to spawn. Your telling me it's ok for you to run up and "steal" the named because it's not tagged yet? I for one would be heated about that. What if it took an hour or two to get the name to spawn in the placeholders spot? That is not cool at all sir.
Xilshale said:Simple server issue fix.
One server with instancing only for select raid content (or a pick system that phases a new copy of the zone per x amount of players or similar).
One non instanced PvP server...You want to honestly prove you're the best, top of the food chain high baller, then a scripted AI isn't enough challenge to you (unless you're really just deluding yourself about why you need to be the best of the best...Skill vs insecurity complex). If you want the real challenge fight live players while racing for the AI and it's last few HP. Last team standing gets loot.
This thread really does remind me how the block member feature doesn't work here.
This is a silly strawman argument , PVP and PVE are entirely diffrent beasts and entirely diffrent social structures .. no offense.
I am PvE player , everyone knows when you kill a dragon ... no one gives a **** when you kill Bob ..
I am open for suggestions that are constructive that pretain directly to the discussion. That being locks or tagging however you want to call it.
Also VR has already said , there against instancing content in multiple posts.
I also believe there must be more work involved , do not quote me but there must be more code and time invested.
So here is a combination of the two , that I have been thinking about perhaps a raid time based flag ? You engage xxx mob , lock the encounter , kill xxx mob and get a time based flag or a little X over the target on respawn?
This prevents top tier guilds from "owning" content , since they will have to wait til there kill flag is gone.... just a thought :)
shasta said:Liav said:I see.
I don't really agree with that definition of kill stealing. Imo, kill stealing is attacking a mob that is already engaged in combat with someone and dealing more than 50% of the total damage, effectively taking credit for it. If you're not engaged with the mob, it's fair game to me, even if it might be "rude". In other words, FTE, or first to engage, is the only relevant consideration in who a mob "belongs to" in my opinion.
As far as camping, yeah, I agree with that definition. I just see nerds all the time, 17 years later, arguing about whether or not their group is pulling from too far outside of what is considered "their camp" in zones.
so lets say I am camping a particular spot killing the named placeholders to get the named to spawn. Your telling me it's ok for you to run up and "steal" the named because it's not tagged yet? I for one would be heated about that. What if it took an hour or two to get the name to spawn in the placeholders spot? That is not cool at all sir.
The counter argument : I need said mob , why should I have to wait for you ? If you want to sit and camp a mob that is a choice, but a placeholder does not give the "right" to a named that multiple people might require.
Xilshale said:Simple server issue fix.
One server with instancing only for select raid content (or a pick system that phases a new copy of the zone per x amount of players or similar).
One non instanced PvP server...You want to honestly prove you're the best, top of the food chain high baller, then a scripted AI isn't enough challenge to you (unless you're really just deluding yourself about why you need to be the best of the best...Skill vs insecurity complex). If you want the real challenge fight live players while racing for the AI and it's last few HP. Last team standing gets loot.
This thread really does remind me how the block member feature doesn't work here.
Yeah the block feature would be pretty awesome I suppose. It'd be particularly useful when someone jumps into a strictly PVE related topic and starts spewing off on how the only way to be the best at PVE content is if the PVP element gets added to the mix. Was your goal to deflect the entire point of the conversation in hopes of getting a rise out of people, or did you think that insinuating delusion and insecurity complexes was actually a meaningful contribution to the thread? While I do enjoy some PVP from time to time, I want to play a PVE game. I'd like to think that there are possible solutions to the "tagging/stealing" conversation going on that doesen't require PVP. I for one hope that people can maintain their composure and not resort to mocking other players under their breath while the rest of us work together to uncover those potential solutions.
Xxar said:
The counter argument : I need said mob , why should I have to wait for you ? If you want to sit and camp a mob that is a choice, but a placeholder does not give the "right" to a named that multiple people might require.
I'm thinking this might be the first game that you learn that using "camp check" is required?
philo said:Xxar said:
The counter argument : I need said mob , why should I have to wait for you ? If you want to sit and camp a mob that is a choice, but a placeholder does not give the "right" to a named that multiple people might require.
I'm thinking this might be the first game that you learn that using "camp check" is required?
No , but with no system being in place it is something that is dated.
Xxar said:philo said:Xxar said:
The counter argument : I need said mob , why should I have to wait for you ? If you want to sit and camp a mob that is a choice, but a placeholder does not give the "right" to a named that multiple people might require.
I'm thinking this might be the first game that you learn that using "camp check" is required?
No , but with no system being in place it is something that is dated.
There was never a need for a system before. I can't help but make assumptions based on your point of view. It is a very "new school" attitude. Pantheon is taking a step back from that.
We have no idea . That is why , we are discussing it.
I played EQ1 from beta - GoD to give a little background.
I know what there intentions are , intentions and reality in game are entirely diffrent things . This being compiled without having a system in place makes for a valid discussion.
Also being a previous eq1 vet , I see MAJOR flaws in the line of thinking that it will be server policed or doing a /petition because someones feelings ended up hurt being my argument.
This directly will effect CS , Guides or anyone involved that can better use there time solving real problems , with having a system in place from the onset.
shasta said:so lets say I am camping a particular spot killing the named placeholders to get the named to spawn. Your telling me it's ok for you to run up and "steal" the named because it's not tagged yet? I for one would be heated about that. What if it took an hour or two to get the name to spawn in the placeholders spot? That is not cool at all sir.
Perhaps for every placeholder (assuming only one pops in the spot) of the named spawn you kill, you gain 3-5 seconds (up to 30 seconds max) of the named being "locked" to you/your group? It promotes people adhering to camps and not trying to steal. I don't see this as being punishing to anyone but those with intentions to steal.
Xxar said:philo said:Xxar said:
The counter argument : I need said mob , why should I have to wait for you ? If you want to sit and camp a mob that is a choice, but a placeholder does not give the "right" to a named that multiple people might require.
I'm thinking this might be the first game that you learn that using "camp check" is required?
No , but with no system being in place it is something that is dated.
Something in my gut tells me, since when in gaming did it become so dismissive to ask to join (or be asked to join) as a group to take down a named mob? Why is it okay to be so cutthroat? I speak of non-raid material, since that is what it seems is being discussed here.
Anyway, VR have stated that offering a sufficient amount of content should help immensely with this behavior. If you have 3-5 top, aggressive, competative guilds on a server and a half dozen areas of choice they can focus on then there shouldn't be much of a problem. But narrow that content to 2-3 areas and ...
The counter argument : I need said mob , why should I have to wait for you ? If you want to sit and camp a mob that is a choice, but a placeholder does not give the "right" to a named that multiple people might require.
OK what about common courtesy? So you're telling me if the shoe was on the other foot and you were sitting there for 2+ hours camping the placeholders amd the named spawns And I run up and take your mob you would be totally OK and happy with that right?
I would. But I'm from FFXI. And that's just the way it was. After a year of this either you got used to it or you didnt. That being said I recognize Pantheon community might go a more EQ etiquette approach. If so then I will go with that. And I have explained it before and won't go deep into it. But to the EQ folks. It wasn't considered rude. It was just how contested content was handled in XI. Different game culture is all. If anyone complained that was seen as being rude and you could lose face and be ostrasized by the community for not gracefully accepting you lost.
Lets tone it down a little bit folks, remember, someone's opinion doesn't make it fact, we can still discuss this in a mature fashion while still respecting each others opinion and being courteous.
shasta said:
The counter argument : I need said mob , why should I have to wait for you ? If you want to sit and camp a mob that is a choice, but a placeholder does not give the "right" to a named that multiple people might require.
OK what about common courtesy? So you're telling me if the shoe was on the other foot and you were sitting there for 2+ hours camping the placeholders amd the named spawns And I run up and take your mob you would be totally OK and happy with that right?
Yes, I might get pissed BUT I also come from games where if you are camping for 2 hrs then you better be prepared to pull so this does not happen.
That is contested content and the nature of the beast.
Also why , I am bringing this up.
I understand what you are saying :) But with no system in place being the point courtesy only gets you so far.
Courtesy is subjective. The greatest benefit of a lack of defined systems is that the community will form them, and in this case, what is considered courteous or appropriate behavior for KSing, camps, tagging etc. However, this is also contigent on the requirement to need the community and others. So, if Pantheon has grouping requirements for progression - players will adapt to the server norms of what is considered courteous. You don't see this in most newer MMos as you don't need others to progress.
I am not trying to debate the outcomes , I am debating the fact it can happen and will.
Do not get me wrong , I will fall in line to the games normal just making a point. It still needs to be taken into consideration.
I have seen it countless times in EQ1 to be fair be it the 6 man wizard burn groups or the guild litterly stopping progression for Time flagging.
I guess I have had my spill on the topic and provided food for thought :)