There are pros and cons to any death penalty and a sliding scale on the severity (from no death penalty to permadeath).
No developer will make everybody happy with the choice they decide. With the current version of the death penalty, I am happy and excited to test it out (once my pledge level is able to). There is a reason you want to get your corpse back (items left on the corpse) and you have the ability for the group to retrieve the corpses (still have worn items equipped).
The death penalty of EQ was not equal among classes (and I do not want them to be). If a group died in a dungeon there was zero concern from certain classes of getting their corpse back. They could be helpful and help retrieve the dead, or they could log off and gather their corpse when they were able to play again. With the current system, the same can be said. Some classes will have a better ability to get to their corpse then other classes; however, now classes that do not have any easy way of getting to their corpse (invis, stealth, feign death, etc) can at least fight their way (with a group) to their corpse to retrieve it without being at the mercy of others outside of the group or using a secondary set of equipment stored in the bank (which to be honest besides the tank, how many people kept a full set of armor/weapons in their bank for corpse recovery?).
While losing all items (worn and not worn) hurts more than not losing all items, there is still a desire to retrieve your corpse making corpse retrieval desired and therefore a death penalty.
When you die:
- Return to your bind spot. The severity of this will enterely depend on how many bind spots there are and how long it takes to travel back.
- Lose X% of current experience towards next level. This seems reasonable. The percentage will probably be adjusted quite a bit based on feedback from testing.
- Large durability hit to worn equipment (if we implement durability, which we probably will). I don't care too much for this, especially if it hits melee much harder, but we do need money sinks, and if it's a large hit to durability (such that 3 or 4 deaths makes the item unuseable), then I'm fine with it.
- Respawn with the gear you were wearing when you died still equipped. This is the one causing the most debate, but it seems necessary to me. We already know that there will be gear-dependant Acclimation, so logically they either give you your glyphs, or they require you to get two sets of them before you do content, not just one.
- All general inventory remains on corpse, must be looted to retrieve. This includes money. This seems like a good trade-off if the goal is to have corpse runs and the previous option isn't practical.
- Resurrection abilities will return an amount of lost exp. All priest classes will boast the same exp return for their rezzes. I favor having all three classes have the same return, though I hope it's not a large number, since if it is, that basically punishes healers (since they will be the ones least likely to get rez'd).
I think there are many other possibilites that haven't been considered but would be impactful. Some suggestions:
- Cause a couple of the powers that were on the LAS to become unuseable for 30 minutes
- Temporarily reduce the buttons available in the LAS by 2
- Impliment deleveling, but only for level 50 characters. When they die, they go down to level 49.8.
Punishing death should only be part of the equation, though. We also need motivation for staying alive. There should be bonuses we earn if we haven't died for a long time. This will also create the fear of death because you don't want to lose these:
- Scaling up movement speed bonus, such that the longer you go without dying, the better it is (up to a max).
- Make max level an actual range that you can still gain XP in until you get to level 50.99. Tie some level bonuses in as a sliding scale. For example, you would get an extra 99 HP for being level 50.99, but only an extra 50 HP for being level 50.5. Tie other bonuses into this sliding scale, and suddenly there is incentive to stay maxed out and not lose XP.
- Characters that haven't died for a long time should have some kind of visual reperesentation or title (like "the Immortal") so everyone can see that this character is hard to kill.
- If no one died, the loot drop rate is better.
I recognize that VR can't possibly make everyone happy. There are some people who want some very harsh death penalties. Perhaps VR should to post your name and credit card number on the Internet when you die or overclock your graphics card to the point it melts if you don't recover your corpse in 5 minutes. Regardless, it's important to remember that the sky isn't falling and that hyperbolic overreaction isn't helpful.
Counterfleche said:Punishing death should only be part of the equation, though. We also need motivation for staying alive. There should be bonuses we earn if we haven't died for a long time. This will also create the fear of death because you don't want to lose these:
I thought there already was motivation for staying alive. You have all your XP, equipment durability etc.
It's been interesting reading this thread for the peope who want it so tough that many people will just quit the game because it is too hard, to people who like most of the options.
Personally I like where they have landed. I played EQ1 for 10+ years and very rarely went on raids due to the corpse runs. Having to run across 4-5 zones just to get back to where your corpse was, wasn't fun but I guess it was fulfilling int he end though. I just played normal zones. I certainly would have quit the game a lot sooner based on some of the things people want in this thread. VR are trying to balance it between having only hard core people playing and having a large community playing.
Maybe they can create a hard core server where there are different rules on death so the few who want it extra hard can play.
Counterfleche said:- Impliment deleveling, but only for level 50 characters. When they die, they go down to level 49.8.
Why do you think that the risk of deleveling from death/exp-loss should only affect one level of the entire game? Perhaps a char is immune from deleveling in the first few beginner levels of adventuring while ppl are starting out. Or perhaps not immune to death penalty at any level at all. The riskVSreward regarding deleveling/exp-loss should exist at all levels now that it's certain chars will respawn with all their gear and weapons. I think this will keep the incentive high for corpse run and rez from priest classes. And if a char is unable to nor simply does not want to make the effort to retrieve corpse, then the char still has their equipped gear/weapons and other items + coin in the bank. But, the incentive for corpse/rez will likely be placed higher now after what was just revealed.
The climate/atmosphere system is unique, so it makes sense to me why we will respawn with all of our equipped and highly valued gear/weapons. But let's also not kid ourselves here, respawning with all our gear and weapons is a huge advantage too; I think deleveling/accumulation of exp-loss from multiple deaths is a worthy compromise to that.
Counterfleche said:Punishing death should only be part of the equation, though. We also need motivation for staying alive. There should be bonuses we earn if we haven't died for a long time. This will also create the fear of death because you don't want to lose these:
- Scaling up movement speed bonus, such that the longer you go without dying, the better it is (up to a max).
- Make max level an actual range that you can still gain XP in until you get to level 50.99. Tie some level bonuses in as a sliding scale. For example, you would get an extra 99 HP for being level 50.99, but only an extra 50 HP for being level 50.5. Tie other bonuses into this sliding scale, and suddenly there is incentive to stay maxed out and not lose XP.
- Characters that haven't died for a long time should have some kind of visual reperesentation or title (like "the Immortal") so everyone can see that this character is hard to kill.
- If no one died, the loot drop rate is better.
That would get a big no from me. There is no need for extra bonuses or benefits when you die less frequent or not at all. The indirect benefits are already there. Reputation, profits, experience, insight, knowledge, progress. There is no need to sugar coat a sweet. The sweet here, being the game as it's designed to be experienced by VR.
This may sound harsh, but to me, most of what you've suggested would hurt the game in the short or long term. Not only to the player itself but to the culture of the community.
Take some time to think about the possible consequences of your proposals and I'm certain you'll see why I'm so strongly opposed.
Boulda said:Maybe they can create a hard core server where there are different rules on death so the few who want it extra hard can play.
I really think you are missing the point. It's not about wanting it extra hard or extra easy (either should be irrelevant). It's about the riskVSreward tenet; it's about compromise. I am in favor of the climate system and the tools for it, but no matter how one spins it, what's revealed is quite an advantage to death. A worthy compromise is needed to counter that if Pantheon is to uphold the riskVSreward component. As Joppa mentioned, the risk of deleveling/exp-loss is likely necessary. I would think so, especially now that we will respawn with gear and weapons. I think the deleveling/exp-loss risk will help to balance that.
Syrif said:Counterfleche said:- Impliment deleveling, but only for level 50 characters. When they die, they go down to level 49.8.
Why do you think that the risk of deleveling from death/exp-loss should only affect one level of the entire game? I would think it's the other way around - a char is immune from deleveling in the first few beginner levels of adventuring while ppl are starting out. Or perhaps not immune to death penalty at any level at all. The riskVSreward regarding deleveling/exp-loss should exist at all levels now that it's certain chars will respawn with all their gear and weapons. I think this will keep the incentive high for corpse run and rez from priest classes. And if a char is unable to nor simply does not want to make the effort to retrieve corpse, then the char still has their equipped gear/weapons and other items + coin in the bank. But, the incentive for corpse/rez will likely be placed higher now after what was just revealed.
The climate/atmosphere system is unique, so it makes sense to me why we will respawn with all of our equipped and highly valued gear/weapons. But let's also not kid ourselves here, respawning with all our gear and weapons is a huge advantage too; I think deleveling/accumulation of exp-loss from multiple deaths is a worthy compromise to that.
I believe that if any level were to be free form de-leveling penalties it would need to max level. I believe that it is important to make the leveling experience a challenge and make it feel like an accomplishment when you finally complete that adventure. If anyone were to be immune (or experience some form of temporary immunity) to deleveling it should be the players who have scraped and climbed their way to the top. I'm not saying that this should or shouldn't happen, but if it were it would need to be these players getting this perk. It's also important to note here that we don't know the leveling of alternate advancements and exp allocation will work at the max level and it is possible that instead of losing physical level you lose progress towards that level up and the next mastery point gain.
I sorta agree with your point about lower levels, however, I honestly think that that is probably the best place for players to start experiencing the consequences of death. I don't think that the exp loss during these early starting levels should be as steep as the regular penalty past the starting zone, but I do think it should be there so players can fully understand the system very early. I think it would also help in preventing a mindset in new players of "Oh we were intentionally tricked and mislead so they could get our money. Once we got out of the starter zone (free trial) we started suffering harsh level penalties when we died and this wasn't our expectation.". Unfortunately, there are people out there who easily develop this pessimistic mindset.
P.S.: I saw your comment about my elegant writing. Thank you for the compliment, but don't really know if I would classify my writing as elegant.
((I believe that if any level were to be free form de-leveling penalties it would need to max level.))
And I feel precisely the opposite way. Up to level 5 or 10 it makes perfect sense to have reduced death penalties so as not to unduly discourage new players. First we suck them in - then when they love the game we gradually introduce a few things that are essential to long-term enjoyment but may be a discouragement to the uninitiated.
But why in the name of all the Gods would we want to take players that have become more than used to a death penalty and suddenly remove it. Obviously if you cannot lose a level at maximum level there *is* no death penalty. As least insofar as experience loss goes.
The only way I would see no loss of levels as being even remotely reasonable as a design would be if some new and significant penalty was introduced at level-cap to compensate. For example a chance - even if small - of permanently losing a piece of gear when you die. Yes I know the argument against this but we need *something* to make death sting as much at level-cap as it did before maximum level.
I posted my thoughts on durability here, this morning:
And the heart of it is:
((There is no durability number or percentage.
- Each time a character dies, worn items have a very low percentage chance to become "damaged".
- A "damaged" item loses some of its effectiveness. Think of the damage condition as a debuff on the item itself.
- Example damage conditions: "Nicked blade". "Dented". "Chipped". and so on.
- Damage conditions can be removed in one of two ways:))
My own view is somewhat different. I think there should be levels of brokenness ranging from a chip that reduces effectiveness slightly to being *broken* and thus unusable. Some special items may be immune - an epic sword may, as part of its epicness - not be subject to damage, for example. Fantasy is full of swords or armor or other items like that.
Since people truly hate pemanent loss of items, a "broken" item can be repaired by certain magic or crafting but until it is the item is useless. Cost of any repair ranging from the chipped item to the broken one (either NPC charges or the level of crafting needed or the cost of materials the crafter would use) would depend on the level and quality of the item. A level 1 tin helmet - not so much. A level 60 chestpiece +3 maybe a large amount.
If you're looking for a max level penalty (and one that applies equally at all levels), a solution from these forums is:
When you die, regardless if you're resurrected or not, you gain a stacking debuff.
This stacking debuff can only be removed by gaining adventure loop XP. (ideally, in Pantheon, in a group)
That's it. That's a solution. It's completely tune-able, makes death sting, discourages zerging, and works from level 1 to max.
There's optional features, but that's the core of a solution.
Add or remove all the other consequences you want, but if you have that, it logically fits the design goal of "death will sting" and strongly encourages a desireable emergent customer behavior.
vjek said:If you're looking for a max level penalty (and one that applies equally at all levels), a solution from these forums is:
When you die, regardless if you're resurrected or not, you gain a stacking debuff.
This stacking debuff can only be removed by gaining adventure loop XP. (ideally, in Pantheon, in a group)
That's it. That's a solution. It's completely tune-able, makes death sting, discourages zerging, and works from level 1 to max.
There's optional features, but that's the core of a solution.
Add or remove all the other consequences you want, but if you have that, it logically fits the design goal of "death will sting" and strongly encourages a desireable emergent customer behavior.
I like this idea, but how would the game account for a situation where an entire group accrued so many debuffs that they could no longer kill anything that would normally provide experience at their level? Would green con mobs start providing exp? Would each member have to break from the group and try to find separate parties to join that weren’t in this predicament in order to leach exp off those groups to get back to a point where they could rejoin each other and not have this issue? Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you are proposing?
GeneralReb said:[...]
Resurrection
In Vanguard each healing class could pass to their groups an item that could rez the healer. I feel like this is important. Not only to keep the pain of death equal for all players but I also feel this helps keep groups together having fun. As some have said the rez should be far less then 96% recovered. Even with a rez death should sting.
Have to disagree on this one even though I loved it when I dual boxxed in VG. I think if the healer goes down it should be a big moment in a dungeon. Healers can res their own corpse for exp right? Group should be doing all that is possible to get the healer back to them. Sounds like easy mode to me, healer dies meh no biggie we have 5 res stones. On the exp % I would wait for testing on this and see how tough things really are and what the leveling curve is like. If it is a bit more towards EQ1 hell level then perhaps a healer epic should be up there in the 90%. OR perhaps you get res at mid level and it never goes above X% so different versions don't matter and you have a better chance of always finding the best res?
[...]
It seems like a lot of people don't think bringing your best bags to a dungeon that perhaps has the best loot for you will be a thing due to the death penalty. I feel like you would want to bring as much weight/slots as you can for on level+ loot that is dropping from mobs that can wipe you. Sure I get it for an exploration / figure out strategies it would be a cheese deal. Same with your best clickies and potions, wouldn't you want the best to defeat the tough encounters that drop the good loot? Otherwise we are talking about places that probably Won't kill you anyways lol.
Commenting on ressurection stones, I wouldlike to see it as a clicky, maybe a quested clicky? maybe a graduated quested clicky with increasing %'s to max level with a very long recast time- like a day or 4 hours or something. The reason being is I like the shift in group dynamic that you learn in mid battle- unspoken!- when things go south.
For intance: normal pulls, one in camp fighting away, then you notice the healer is getting hit, alot. Unspoken! war remains on the main target, Caster turns and Nukes the mob hitting healer- grabbing aggro away from healer. Healer ignores caster for time being and caster knows this. Chanter tries to mezz add. Add is unmezzable. Caster going down, healer throws a small heal to caster, war is keeping main target busy, rogue shifts and tries to max DPS the main target down since war has alot of aggro, chanter adding nukes to main, caster begins separating herself a little. 2 more adds. Caster dies to 1st add, Chanter mezzes one of the two adds, war grabs aggro from all three, healer tries to keep war up, rogue has almost killed first target. 4th add comes. chanter gets huge aggro trying to mezz all, healer tries to keep chanter up, rogue stops, war taunts all targets not expecting to be healed waiting to die. Healer is waiting to see if only 2 are remaining unmezzed, if so war and rogue can finish first mob and work on second with chanter and healer while chanter maintains control, caster can wait or is running back. If this doesn't happen and war dies, healer pops DA and painfully and slowly begins to walk away as far as possible while the chanter tries to blur the mobs as the rogue hides, and waits. If the chanter cannot blur, all the mobs run after and kill the healer after killing the chanter. The rogue drags corpses to safe spot, Caster makes it back "where did those come from? " she asks
on bags: I would like to think there would be reasons to take nice weight reductions bags into dungeons, to carry needed heavy ores out without being encumbered.
vjek said:If you're looking for a max level penalty (and one that applies equally at all levels), a solution from these forums is:
When you die, regardless if you're resurrected or not, you gain a stacking debuff.
This stacking debuff can only be removed by gaining adventure loop XP. (ideally, in Pantheon, in a group)
That's it. That's a solution. It's completely tune-able, makes death sting, discourages zerging, and works from level 1 to max.
There's optional features, but that's the core of a solution.
Add or remove all the other consequences you want, but if you have that, it logically fits the design goal of "death will sting" and strongly encourages a desireable emergent customer behavior.
I do not like this solution because it discourages attempting raids without first looking up how to do them. If you get a debuff for dying than your second try would be even more difficult. I'd prefer to be in a group/guild that is willing to learn the encounter without looking up spoilers, and I'd like to be able to make more than one attempt on the night we decide to do that raid.
Nekentros said:I like this idea, but how would the game account for a situation where an entire group accrued so many debuffs that they could no longer kill anything that would normally provide experience at their level? Would green con mobs start providing exp? Would each member have to break from the group and try to find separate parties to join that weren’t in this predicament in order to leach exp off those groups to get back to a point where they could rejoin each other and not have this issue? Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you are proposing?
If they died 10-20 times in a row, there are other problems.
In other words, it's a tunable mechanic. What the debuffs are and how they affect the efficacy of action channeling the adventure loop are all things that can be adjusted.
But sure, it's possible a group, after a single wipe, might all decide to, as a group, together, return to slightly easier content (in the same zone) in order to work off the debuff debt.
dorotea said:((I believe that if any level were to be free form de-leveling penalties it would need to max level.))
And I feel precisely the opposite way. Up to level 5 or 10 it makes perfect sense to have reduced death penalties so as not to unduly discourage new players. First we suck them in - then when they love the game we gradually introduce a few things that are essential to long-term enjoyment but may be a discouragement to the uninitiated.
But why in the name of all the Gods would we want to take players that have become more than used to a death penalty and suddenly remove it. Obviously if you cannot lose a level at maximum level there *is* no death penalty. As least insofar as experience loss goes.
The only way I would see no loss of levels as being even remotely reasonable as a design would be if some new and significant penalty was introduced at level-cap to compensate. For example a chance - even if small - of permanently losing a piece of gear when you die. Yes I know the argument against this but we need *something* to make death sting as much at level-cap as it did before maximum level.
I think that this was a response to my post, but before I respond I just want to verify.
I'm generally going to be supportive of what the development team feels will make the most sense for the feel of the game as well as its long term success. If this is where we land, I'm good with it.
A few thoughts:
1. I'd hate to see a diminishing impact of a potential class feature. Say for example there was a class ability that allowed someone to summon your corpse to your location (old EQ Necro and SK), Those were class defining in a way. It was a relief to find one of these classes available to help with these critical CR moments. It helped build community in a positive way.
2. There could be a compromise by implementing something like "soulbinding" gear through a quest or crafting to have items persist through death. There are creative ways to limit this, and could give extra meaning to a crafting profession or rare drop. However, I wouldn't want to add more development to be added at this point, and this would go against #1 above.
3. On the plus side to spawning with gear - Getting trained by a 3rd party is less painful!
4. Kilsin may need to start an in game gofundme to help pay repair bills for train victims.
Thank you for reading.
vjek said:Or... you could make the attempt, go consume some group content, and then make a second attempt.. :)
I believe this solution was obvious with your initial suggestion (since that was the only way you suggested to remove the debuff). If that's the way the game ended up being then I'd obviously do that.
My preference though is to be able to plan an evening a week specifically for raids if I have a little more time than usual one night a week. I wouldn't want my "raid night" to turn into "normal content" night just because we died. This would lead to a player like me only being able to make an attempt on a raid once a week, and the pressure to get it right on the first try would be SO HIGH that it would be hard to not look up spoilers. I personally don't want to use spoilers and I don't want to be in a guild that does. But if that's how the game is designed it will almost be a requirement for people like me (and I know there are plenty of people like me that are under represented on the forums/discord).
Zuljan said: ultimately this decision must have been made for a quality of life type change for casual players.
Yep. I agree that is certainly obvious, even though the role in the climate system is understandable. I really hope that doesn't become the normal trend here as has happened up to Mainstream mmorpg's. Anyway, this is exactly why the death penalty needs to be harsher than what is revealed. I agree with Joppa that deleveling/exp-loss accumulation is needed. It is especially necessary now with what was revealed (not only just for balance, but also to uphold the riskVSreward tenet of Pantheon and keeping the incentive high for rez/corpse run).
Respawning with all our gear and weapons is most significant indeed. The death penalty needs to reflect that; deleveling should be a part of significant exp-loss accumulation. This is what I will be paying attention to when Joppa/VR follow up on this revelation.
I think too many people are jumping to conclusions about what this is going to turn into. An armored CR may not be easy at all, as others have pointed out, so stop thinking you know it's a dumb idea. Long story short: wait, test, and give feedback! Some of the responses here have been "omg this game is definitely going to suck now, no more pledges from me, I don't even want to play it!". Lighten up people. Jeez.
I think that the currently proposed system will still have death sting. XP loss freakin' stings, man! Did you ever die during a hell level in EQ without a rez, thus having to recap what was probably several hours worth (and probably more) of xp? Don't tell me that xp loss doesn't sting. Don't tell me you won't be wanting your corpse that has all your bags, potions, clickies, secondary weapons, etc. A lot of people assume the durability cost will be like in WoW with a small fee. We don't know!
I don't agree (and think it is ridiculous) that death only stings if we have permanent item loss, or people able to loot your corpse, or if it takes hours upon hours to get back to what you were doing because you died. I think that this would cause a steep decline in subscribers quickly after launch, which results in a dead game. I do not want a dead game... I want a thriving game. We don't need to cater to the millions, but we don't need to cater to a few dozen hardcore "death should hit like a truck" people in the crowd.
snocap said:I don't agree (and think it is ridiculous) that death only stings if we have permanent item loss, or people able to loot your corpse, or if it takes hours upon hours to get back to what you were doing because you died.
That is quite an extreme claim. I haven't seen people proposing that.
Syrif said:snocap said:I don't agree (and think it is ridiculous) that death only stings if we have permanent item loss, or people able to loot your corpse, or if it takes hours upon hours to get back to what you were doing because you died.
That is quite an extreme claim. I haven't seen people proposing that.
I have. A few back at the start of this thread went to some of those extreme places. Maybe some of it was missed sarcasm on my part. That was more of an aside and not my main point, though.
Most people are just saying that they want deleveling and are concerned that non-naked CRs equals a painless death. My main point was that we don't know how much a non-naked CR will sting, and we don't know for sure that deleveling isn't in the cards especially with testing and feedback. So until we know more and get further into testing, I just would like to ask people to not go into a "the sky is falling" mode.
Personally, I believe a heavy XP hit when XP is hard to come by is painful enough... without deleveling. However, I am going to wait to test whatever VR has in store before I decide if their approach is too heavy handed, too light, or just right.
XP loss and level loss has to be part of it. The death penalty is the only counterbalance to give meaning to the multitude of ways players gain/progress in an MMO. Loss must be something that stirs emotion in players, something that gives real value to the gains and drums up actual tension. Without losing experience and levels then so much meaning and richness is lost, the game quickly becomes a far more empty system of just chasing from one reward to the next with no real risk involved. Content is consumed at a far more rapid pace as players can throw themselves against any challenges endlessly until they succeed, the challenges often reduced less to a question of if but rather when.