snocap said:I think too many people are jumping to conclusions about what this is going to turn into. An armored CR may not be easy at all, as others have pointed out, so stop thinking you know it's a dumb idea. Long story short: wait, test, and give feedback! Some of the responses here have been "omg this game is definitely going to suck now, no more pledges from me, I don't even want to play it!". Lighten up people. Jeez.
I think that the currently proposed system will still have death sting. XP loss freakin' stings, man! Did you ever die during a hell level in EQ without a rez, thus having to recap what was probably several hours worth (and probably more) of xp? Don't tell me that xp loss doesn't sting. Don't tell me you won't be wanting your corpse that has all your bags, potions, clickies, secondary weapons, etc. A lot of people assume the durability cost will be like in WoW with a small fee. We don't know!
I don't agree (and think it is ridiculous) that death only stings if we have permanent item loss, or people able to loot your corpse, or if it takes hours upon hours to get back to what you were doing because you died. I think that this would cause a steep decline in subscribers quickly after launch, which results in a dead game. I do not want a dead game... I want a thriving game. We don't need to cater to the millions, but we don't need to cater to a few dozen hardcore "death should hit like a truck" people in the crowd.
I agree with this. I think that it is too early to state that "this system lacks impact", or that "it was designed with the casual player base in mind" without understanding how other systems could come into play and the magnitude of which they come into play. The only way to be able to accurately access and judge this system is to experience it first hand, and even then some people are probably going to voice their unhappiness even if it does prove to be a challenging system in practice.
I also agree that a permanent loss of items on death is ridiculous. Maybe it would be cool on a special server with those rules but it's not something I personally would want to experience in general. I think that for a good number of people this would be a concept that would drive them away from the game, and that is not good for the overall health of the game and the size of its community.
snocap said:Most people are just saying that they want deleveling and are concerned that non-naked CRs equals a painless death.
Well, that's where I agree with them (to an extent). I don't think the concern is that there is entirely painless death, the concern is that death may not sting enough in light of what was revealed. I look forward to hearing more about it. While I personally can see why we will be respawning with gear due to the climate system, let's not kid ourselves that respawning with your gear and weapons is a huge benefit on death. That's why I think the risk of deleveling/exp-loss accumulation is needed to help counter that immense benefit. Not only does that fulfill balance and compromise, it keeps a decent incentive for rez/corpse run despite respawning with your gear and weapons.
Syrif said:snocap said:Most people are just saying that they want deleveling and are concerned that non-naked CRs equals a painless death.
Well, that's where I agree with them (to an extent). I don't think the concern is that there is entirely painless death, the concern is that death may not sting enough in light of what was revealed. I look forward to hearing more about it. While I personally can see why we will be respawning with gear due to the climate system, let's not kid ourselves that respsawning with your gear and weapons is a huge benefit on death. That's why I think the risk of deleveling/exp-loss accumulation is needed to help counter that immense benefit. Not only does that fulfill balance and compromise, it keeps a decent incentive for rez/corpse run despite respawning with your gear and weapons.
I think a lot of people are also overlooking how the deposition/manifestation system plays in here, Yeah spawning with your gear is an advantage but if you die to a mob that has a wizard hunter disposition and that mob is able to drop you 60-70% hp with armor (based from the streams) then it really would be impossible to get to your body without any gear and even in a group, you would still be instantly killed if that mob got off a spell which would lead to even more exp loss. If you look at the bloodthirsty disposition, this is yet another potential combat situation which it might be near impossible to make it back to your body without having access to your gear.
I support the notion of de-leveling because I think it is the counterbalance to spawning with your gear, and my understanding was that before this change there would only be exp debt and no de-leveling capabilities. I don't think that traditional naked corpse runs are needed to facilitate a painful death though given that death could occur in an area with multiple dispositions and the respawn of other mobs/dispositions in the surrounding area.
Iksar said:XP loss and level loss has to be part of it. The death penalty is the only counterbalance to give meaning to the multitude of ways players gain/progress in an MMO. Loss must be something that stirs emotion in players, something that gives real value to the gains and drums up actual tension. Without losing experience and levels then so much meaning and richness is lost, the game quickly becomes a far more empty system of just chasing from one reward to the next with no real risk involved. Content is consumed at a far more rapid pace as players can throw themselves against any challenges endlessly until they succeed, the challenges often reduced less to a question of if but rather when.
This post basically sums up why balance and compromise to "riskVSreward" is so important for death in an mmorpg of this feat. Anyway, excellent post.
Also (not sure if it's been said, but I tried to skim through everything) without the posibility of losing levels you could simply do a naked run into any zone you feel like exploring. If you die, so what? Just leave your corpse there and no loss because nothing was on it. If you're level 50 and you want to see how this certain mob starts off a fight just get naked, go start the fight and last 5 seconds, see how it goes, no loss.
Basically any time you are worried that travelling from here to there is risky toss everything you own into the bank and do the travelling naked. If you make it to your destination find another bank and re-equip.
You get the idea. Short story long, I'd definitley vote for de-leveling rather than exp debt.
Edit - I was using the example of being completely naked and then realized that you don't even need to be naked, just empty your inventory. "Here friend, hold my stuff for a minute while I go try to solo this thing. If I die, no biggy, you'll hand my stuff back afterwards." Or just leave everything of value in the bank or equipped. Oh man, this goes on and on. Just please keep the risk of losing levels in the game.
More Edits - At the start of every group, pug, guild group, raid, or otherwise, people are always going to say "hold on, gotta put everything in the bank in case we die in a bad spot." Or worse yet, after your group does kill a difficult boss and he drops something awesome, whoever wins it is going to say "well, I gotta go put this in the bank just in case we die later." Then everyone else gets to either wait for them to come back or /kick them and get a replacement. I just don't want that to be an option. Make us retrieve our corpses.
@Ranarius That's really true. Good points you make!
My dissapointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.
Seriously though, I wish it was naked CR with an optional somewhat local spawn point and no deleveling, but a negative xp bar if you just kept dying. Now it is just another crack up there with respecs and the fashion show... could be worse...
edit: Added the word somewhat since right outside the zone is not the same as not needing a teleport to the continent.
the whole concept of "respawning with gear you were wearing to make CR possible / equal for gear dependent classes" is ludicrous.
early video with Brad he stated "important to have backup gear in the bank" - which helps the economy from deflation as some items are kept / traded just for that purpose.
or crafted backup gear, for CR's.
I did that in EQ1 for years and loved the thought of it.
The other option (was it vanguard that did this ?) - you could choose to "soulbind" an item to have it respawn with you - but then also unsellable. and have a HUGE cost to unsoulbind an item - could be money or a changing quest based on level so that you don't want to soul bind / not able to sell everything.
it's called planning and fear. What fool brings all their best bags and all their money on a dungeon run. potions etc are cheap and replaceable, hard earned gear not somuch. (unless you count bagged clickies i suppose).
Maybe they can create a hard core server where there are different rules on death so the few who want it extra hard can play.
This is honestly the best thing I have read in the forums. +1 since I can't thumbs up your post.
Giving a "hardcore" server for those who want to stab their eyes out when they die and a "Normal" server for those looking for a challenge and punishment but not be De-leveled or have perminant loss of character/items/or whatever.
dorotea said:First we suck them in - then when they love the game we gradually introduce a few things that are essential to long-term enjoyment but may be a discouragement to the uninitiated.
So... bait and switch. You show them this awesome game and once they get invested then you serve them the **** sandwitch and hope they eat it and come back for more xD ...
Yaz87x said:Maybe they can create a hard core server where there are different rules on death so the few who want it extra hard can play.
This is honestly the best thing I have read in the forums. +1 since I can't thumbs up your post.
Giving a "hardcore" server for those who want to stab their eyes out when they die and a "Normal" server for those looking for a challenge and punishment but not be De-leveled or have perminant loss of character/items/or whatever.
You've got to be kidding. The reason this doesn't work is one can just as easily say they should make "easy peasy" servers for the "very casual" who want to be 'served on a plate' and be able to kill raid mobs 'as a duo' oh you know... just because. Do you see why what I say is just as absurd but in the other direction? Lol. Plus, easy peasy already exists like WoW.
Or, there can be a meaningful death penalty with balance and compromise to riskVSreward with exp-loss/deleveling instead, especially after what's been revealed. I have not seen anyone say they want permanent loss of chars/items as you claim.
Man, more than 20 years later and here we are yet again and again having to express the importance of upholding the tenets. It just gets to be mind-boggling after a while. Anyway, having "easy peasy" servers and "hardcore servers" is obviously not the answer imo. Having compromise and balance to death is.
Euther said:Brad he stated "important to have backup gear in the bank" - which helps the economy from deflation as some items are kept / traded just for that purpose.
or crafted backup gear, for CR's.
Yep. Crazy isn't it.
What's next? Another revelation of "Oh, there won't be risk of deleveling from death exp-loss" after the announcement of respawning with gear/weapon. Let's hope not. VR really should have clarified this part of death too. Smh
Syrif said:Boulda said:Maybe they can create a hard core server where there are different rules on death so the few who want it extra hard can play.
I really think you are missing the point. It's not about wanting it extra hard or extra easy (either should be irrelevant). It's about the riskVSreward tenet; it's about compromise.
The risk vs reward is what they have already described. People seem to want the risk to be much more severe, so more of a penalty. We haven't even played it yet. For all we know the xp loss from dieing could equate to having to play 5-8 hours extra just to get back to where you were. Now that is a penalty if you die 3 times trying to get your origianl corpse back so there is a weeks worth of playing to recover the xp.
I think we should just wait till it is availble in the alpha's and beta's before everyone jumps up and down. Even if it is in right now for pre-alpha it is bound to change during the course of development.
Boulda said:The risk vs reward is what they have already described. People seem to want the risk to be much more severe, so more of a penalty.
What people want is for there to be compromise and balance to death in light of what was just revealed (you know, like respawning with your equipped gear and weapons). Respawning with all that is quite literally a huge benefit on death, so death needs to reflect that. That's why the risk of deleveling from exp-loss needs to be there. Contrary to what you say, the loss on death in this revelation just does not uphold the risk factor to death like how the benefit factor of respawning with your gear/weapons does on death. That is what the concern is. It's called riskVSreward, which is supposed to be a tenet of Pantheon.
Boulda said:I think we should just wait till it is availble in the alpha's and beta's before everyone jumps up and down. Even if it is in right now for pre-alpha it is bound to change during the course of development.
Respawning with your gear and weapons was already definitely announced recently despite it being in pre-alpha. That's why clarification on exp-loss and deleveling is needed from the devs about why deleveling should also be in Pantheon.
Boulda said:Syrif said:Boulda said:Maybe they can create a hard core server where there are different rules on death so the few who want it extra hard can play.
I really think you are missing the point. It's not about wanting it extra hard or extra easy (either should be irrelevant). It's about the riskVSreward tenet; it's about compromise.
The risk vs reward is what they have already described. People seem to want the risk to be much more severe, so more of a penalty. We haven't even played it yet. For all we know the xp loss from dieing could equate to having to play 5-8 hours extra just to get back to where you were. Now that is a penalty if you die 3 times trying to get your origianl corpse back so there is a weeks worth of playing to recover the xp.
I think we should just wait till it is availble in the alpha's and beta's before everyone jumps up and down. Even if it is in right now for pre-alpha it is bound to change during the course of development.
Not true... some people have played in the other PA's... just don't know who...
So some people are pure speculation and others have more insight... and even others draw experiences from other games..
Yaz87x said:Maybe they can create a hard core server where there are different rules on death so the few who want it extra hard can play.
This is honestly the best thing I have read in the forums. +1 since I can't thumbs up your post.
Giving a "hardcore" server for those who want to stab their eyes out when they die and a "Normal" server for those looking for a challenge and punishment but not be De-leveled or have perminant loss of character/items/or whatever.
There are a number of features that this has been suggested for. As I alluded to in a previous post individuals stress vs dopamine response is different. What may be exciting for one person is torture for another. Some players may relish the pain of needing to do a naked corpse run if for no other reason then it really sucks. If there isn’t a very painful consequence to failure then they wont get their dopamine.
Conversely there are a fair number of gamers who are there to relax and socialize and the aggravation of a naked corpse run is too much. This gets doubly important when you consider the 2 hour play time target. Some naked runs can take hours to complete. If you are at the end of your game time and you die you basically only have the option of leaving your corpse where it is. The next time you have time to play you start naked, without a group. That customer is fairly likely to just log back off.
There is also the possibility of having different content areas having different death penalties. Those who do not want to risk those penalties can choose to do lower risk content.
Either way “one size fits all” is not the only option and certainly is not the best option.
Possible Hardcore Server Features:
Naked, delevel, durability damage deaths
No auction house
No global chat channels
No mounts
Small localize banks
No visual alterations of dropped loot
Trasak said:Possible Hardcore Server Features:
Naked, delevel, durability damage deaths
No auction house
No global chat channels
No mounts
Small localize banks
What are the features for Easy Peasy Servers? And for Pantheon-Lite Servers? And for Normal Servers?
Syrif said:Trasak said:Possible Hardcore Server Features:
Naked, delevel, durability damage deaths
No auction house
No global chat channels
No mounts
Small localize banks
Then what are the features for Easy Peasy Servers? And for Pantheon-Lite Servers? And for Normal Servers?
I think this would be something that VR could pole for closer to launch. If they can use the same base game to appeal to multiple groups then they have broadly expanded their cost effectiveness just by manipulating certain quality of life toggles. It could be pushed all the way to having a FTP server with a cash shop and the other direction to a premium subscription server with multiple hired GM/story tellers wandering around running events.
Perhaps it's better if we are in the same world with balance and compromise instead. ;)
Ranarius said:Basically any time you are worried that travelling from here to there is risky toss everything you own into the bank and do the travelling naked. If you make it to your destination find another bank and re-equip.
Banking will be local though, or was that changed too? So while your idea works for testing things out near your home town, it won't help when traveling. Unless you put replacement stuff into every local bank..
I think a fair summary of most (not all by any means) of the discussion in this thread is:
1. There is a lot of concern that the death penalty may be too mild.
2. Most of us recognize that we don't have enough information to judge. Not because VR is holding out on us but because the details haven't been worked out yet. So mixed in with the concern is hope that the final result will be a penalty that hurts enough even at maximum level for most of us to be happy. Those of us in various testing stages will certainly be keeping an eye out for this when the happy day comes.
3. Most comments here whether they say so or not are intended to encourage VR to go in the direction the poster wants - with many inevitable exaggerations of how good or bad things are to encourage that.
dorotea said:I think a fair summary of most (not all by any means) of the discussion in this thread is:
1. There is a lot of concern that the death penalty may be too mild.
2. Most of us recognize that we don't have enough information to judge. Not because VR is holding out on us but because the details haven't been worked out yet. So mixed in with the concern is hope that the final result will be a penalty that hurts enough even at maximum level for most of us to be happy. Those of us in various testing stages will certainly be keeping an eye out for this when the happy day comes.
I agree to an extent (I definitely agree death appears too mild in announcement and what you say about levels even max levels). In my case I do not want to test Pantheon because for me that spoils much of the excitement of it being a new experience at launch. Testing was where I had faith in VR. I will have to think about this :/
dorotea said:3. Most comments here whether they say so or not are intended to encourage VR to go in the direction the poster wants - with many inevitable exaggerations of how good or bad things are to encourage that.
Yes, each poster's personal direction should be irrelevant. What it comes down to is VR upholding their own tenet of riskVSreward; and no matter how anyone spins it, respawning with all your valuable, equipped gear and weapons is a major benefit after death. If VR is to uphold the tenet, then the penalty from death needs to be harsher such as what Joppa and people here have said: risk of deleveling and exp-loss after death. Perhaps player-crafter (not npc) could help with some of it too. I have advocated for VR upholding their own tenets. Their tenets are the one thing that should not change since Pantheon was announced. In my personal opinion, I can live without full-naked CR's in understanding the relation of gear-to-climate, but the tenets of Pantheon must still be upheld to match it especially after significant announcements are made such as this one.
I will form an opinion once I have had a chance to experience the penalties myself and seen how they affect other group members' attitudes.
Generally speaking, though, harsher penalty means fewer deaths, and vice versa! Worth to remember, when arguing about this essential mechanic.
Syrif said:Perhaps it's better if we are in the same world with balance and compromise instead. ;)
Compromise leaves everyone a little unhappy by definition. Different toggles will allow more people to be +95% satisfied. We will already need multiple servers (hopefully dozens) as each server may only be able to support 3k users at one time. There could be a range of servers from FTP, Challenge lite (faster leveling, lower death penalty, lots of group finder tools), "Normal servers", RP servers, Hardcore Servers, faction pvp, free for all pvp, GM guided servers, and even one life servers.
If every time one server type becomes filed a new one of the same type opens then players will get to decide with their play time what type of server they want. If hardcore is most popular then it will have the most servers.