Chogar said:I must be remembering corpse recovery differently than others in EQ.
While originally death hurt (especially if you were above the curve in levels or if the server crashed and you where running through a new area) after the level curve started to reach level 40+ corpse recoveries where a joke (even naked). Since there where no instanced dungeons SOL B and Lower Guk were empty of enemies during primetime and off-hours to an extent (Did not play much off-hours that I can remember). You had parties camped at each named camp and pulling anything they could for XP (or to nab a named that does not have a party sitting on the spawn). The worst part about dying at this point was another group taking your spot or pulling all the mobs in your "camp" while the party headed back to regroup.
Raiding was a different issue with corpse recovery; however, there were enough classes (Monk/Rogue) to gather corpses not sitting under the boss to get enough people geared to distract the boss so the remaining corpses could be recovered. This method changed after summon corpse was introduced (and of course as more people reached level 50 the raid mobs did not stay alive for long anyway).
As to the argument, the death penalty is weak sauce because people start with their worn gear after dying... How many classes were affected by this all the time?
- Bard: Could invis song or pacify enemies to get past. Trickier then other classes if invis song is not an option, but possible.
- Cleric: Invis vs Undead
- Druid: Camouflage, SoW, Evac
- Enchanter: Invis (Both), mez, pacify, etc (lots of tricks)
- Magician: Invis
- Monk: Feign Death
- Necromancer: Invis vs Undead, Feign Death
- Paladin: Invis vs Undead
- Ranger: Camouflage, SoW
- Rogue: Stealth
- Shadow Knight: Invis vs Undead, Feign Death
- Shaman: Invisibility, SoW
- Warrior: ....
- Wizard: Invis, Evac
While Monk and Rogue where the best at corpse recovery, other classes had the ability to get their corpse back, without help, to some degree (excluding Warriors). Having all non-equipped items stay on your corpse is an incentive to make you want to retrieve your corpse.
As to the XP and losing a level Will have to wait until I see it in action. XP loss (with or without losing a level) affects people differently and I am OK with either because the kind of XP loss that would scare me from dying would make everybody else leave the game. I play the game to have fun: grouping and killing the enemy is fun for me. So having to spend an extra 30 hours of killing stuff is not a punishment if I die 1 time (and got a rez) to recoup the XP lost from that death. To others, that might make them quit the game.
I remember it the same way... not a big deal just ask for help, often time you're asked ahead of time if you want help, simply say "yes please"
I wanted to thank you for compileing this list.. it clearly shows the only class that really needed to respawn with something was a Warrior, nobody ever (ok very few) actually fought back down to their corpse, thats nonsence. Maybe a better solution is every clas has some perc, invis, sow, camo, ect except a War.... maybe a War should respawn with some or all it's weapons, Maybe some sort of Boost to H2H or while H2H be able to Knock (mez) a mob.
Syrif said:Chogar said:the kind of XP loss that would scare me from dying would make everybody else leave the game. I play the game to have fun: grouping and killing the enemy is fun for me. So having to spend an extra 30 hours of killing stuff is not a punishment if I die 1 time (and got a rez) to recoup the XP lost from that death. To others, that might make them quit the game.
And others on the other end might quit because you respawn with your full set of gear and weapons with no naked CR. Either perspective won't be satisfied, so the only solution is the compromise of death. Many people have expressed the death penalty does not do that in the announcement. That's why we need more clarification from VR on death, which we likely will. Plus, the people you mention who may quit because of losing experience at least have an mmorpg (like WoW) to choose from where there is no exp-loss and deleveling. The others don't.
I agree as to what you say about the classes being so different from each other and some being better at corpse retrieval than others, that's the WHOLE POINT. It's called class-interdependency, a tenet. It's true: corpse retrieval with these abilities was not very difficult in Classic EQ. I thought Brad said decisions weren't being made just for the sake of 'appealing to the masses.' I thought the tenets that made people pledge in the first place (like riskVSreward) were to be upheld.
You keep saying Risk Vs Reward and yet skip over the point of my post: Being naked to retrieve your corpse did not matter after the server level curve reached the 40's. After the server reached a certain point (average level-wise) there was 0 risk from dying and not getting your corpse back. All you had to do was reach the dungeon you died in and walk to your corpse (or take the easy way and get a res, no walking needed).
The time involved to get your corpse (running from bind spot, searching for a port, etc) was the worst part (unless you bound at the dungeon entrance, then no worry at all in that regard). When the game was new and the servers were young the naked corpse run had a sting, after that... not so much. Sadly no game will ever have that feeling again (thanks internet and technology)
You speak of wanting a compromise on death. Is that not what Pantheon has done? Naked corpse run Vs No corpse run: Spawn with equipped gear; however, everything else is left on the corpse. Still leaves a desire to retrieve your corpse (not as much of a desire as being naked, but people will still want their corpse back). From my understanding that is a compromise.
If I appear naked after I die or only with equipped items will not matter to me because I will still want to get my corpse.
Chogar said:You keep saying Risk Vs Reward
You speak of wanting a compromise on death. Is that not what Pantheon has done?
Chogar said:If I appear naked after I die or only with equipped items will not matter to me because I will still want to get my corpse.
Goodness. As people have said, if you are respawning with the *benefit* of your full set of gear and weapons, then the RISK of death needs to compromise that. Many people do not think the RISK does that in the announcement (I’d think we will get feedback). The only thing that would be on your corpse is non-banked inventory while Your full set of gear, weapons, and banked inventory would not. If that’s not a major benefit, then I don’t know what is. The incentive would obviously need to be higher for corpse retrieval than to only just retrieve non-banked inventory. The risk of deleveling and significant exp-loss keeps the incentive high for getting your corpse and seeking a rez (class-interdependency).
It’s really not that hard to see, and that is for VR to respond to (not me). I did respond to you though - if you still can’t see this concept, then I agree to disagree lol. I have no more to say.
Syrif said:Chogar said:You keep saying Risk Vs Reward
You speak of wanting a compromise on death. Is that not what Pantheon has done?
Chogar said:If I appear naked after I die or only with equipped items will not matter to me because I will still want to get my corpse.
Goodness. As people have said, if you are respawning with the REWARD of your full set of gear and weapons, then the RISK of death needs to compromise that. Many people do not think the RISK does that in the announcement (I’d think we will get feedback). The only thing that would be on your corpse is non-banked inventory while Your full set of gear, weapons, and banked inventory would not. If that’s not a major benefit, then I don’t know what is. The incentive would obviously need to be higher for corpse retrieval than to only just retrieve non-banked inventory. The risk of deleveling and significant exp-loss keeps the incentive high for getting your corpse and seeking a rez (class-interdependency).
It’s really not that hard to see, and that is for VR to respond to (not me). I did respond to you though - if you still can’t see this concept, then I agree to disagree lol. I have no more to say.
The confusion here is that the normal use of Risk vs Reward is the risk involved for the content you are fighting vs the reward of the loot/exp That content can provide. So in the context of this thread the risk would be having to do a geared CR to get your inventory items + some exp back versus the reward of what that dungeon/camp/whatever potentially drops.
This still means from your view Syrif that the risk is not high enough. But describing the reward as items you earned from many different places doesn't go with the standard use of the term.
Anyway we don't know how high the exp penalty will be. It's possible the exp penalty will be high enough that you would feel the risk is high enough. (most likely on some sort of scale so that it feels right for the levels). I mean hell levels in EQ the sting was absolutely about Exp loss and not about the CR because you never really lost your corpse. You did not want to lose that exp you are grinding out in a hell level!
As to the many posts about inventory being cheesed or not being worth getting I still don't buy it. How often did this happen in EQ vanilla? Did you see people banking their good bags before a dungeon? I sure never did. Why wouldn't you want to be able to carry more loot from this dungeon that is so dangerous you are scared of a CR? (Meaning that dungeon will have good loot for you, Risk vs Reward, and you will want to have your best bags to carry as much as possible). If this cheese thing is such a concern why didn't it happen all the time in EQ? Different generation? What about the loot you got before you died? You're going to leave that too even if you did cheese your bags?
Edit: Thinking about EQ the banks were so far from the dungeons you didn't even want to travel that far until you really needed to. I suppose that will have a large effect as has been stated, such as if we really have local banks or not.
Lastly as has been said plenty, CR are rarely as hard as some make it out to be. As if every time you die you will never be able to get your corpse. /shrug it just didn't work that way with naked CR even. Unless you were like early days lost your corpse in Fear and no one was raiding it in time before decaying
All that said I am for the strongest death penalty that VR is willing to implement :)
GeneralReb said:But describing the reward as items you earned from many different places doesn't go with the standard use of the term.
This thread is about the riskVSreward of the corpse run and death penalty; not about the riskVSreward for hunting for gear in the world. They are two different features and two different topics.
GeneralReb said:This still means from your view Syrif that the risk is not high enough.
Thanks for your thoughts
To be fair, many people have stated they feel the risk involved with death and CR in announcement is not high enough vs respawning with your full set of gear and weapons. We will just have to see how VR clarifies death risk from what was stated.
Syrif said:GeneralReb said:But describing the reward as items you earned from many different places doesn't go with the standard use of the term.
This thread is about the riskVSreward of the corpse run and death penalty; not about the riskVSreward for hunting for gear in the world. They are two different topics.
I was only trying to point out the way you are using the term is confusing. I think that classifying respawn with gear as a reward is inaccurate. A reward for dying would be like a title that says "of the 100 reincarnations" or a reward of a summon corpse clicky after 1k deaths, THAT is a reward. Spawning with gear is not a reward, it is a game mechanic. It is a term that goes back quite a ways for MMO and the reward in riskVSreward has always meant that the reward is what you gain from the current content you are consuming versus the risk of death/CR that content poses to you.
EDIT: The risk is too low is what you are really meaning, but calling the death mechanic a reward is off, it's not a reward it is LESS risk.
GeneralReb said:I think that classifying respawn with gear as a reward is inaccurate.
Then call it a significant benefit? What else would it be? Mind you, I'm not against it; I do agree the risk needs to be higher now. The reward in this case is the recovered experience from CR & rez. The reward of recovered-exp is high if the risk of deleveling and exp-loss is also high. It seems the benefit of respawning with full gear and weapons means the risk of death should be high. Thanks for discussion, that's all I've got.
Syrif said:GeneralReb said:I think that classifying respawn with gear as a reward is inaccurate.
Then call it a significant benefit? What else would it be? Mind you, I'm not against it; I do agree the risk needs to be higher now. The reward in this case is the recovered experience from CR & rez. The reward of recovered-exp is high if the risk of deleveling and exp-loss is high. It seems the benefit of respawning with full gear and weapons means the risk of death should be high. Thanks for discussion, that's all I've got.
It's a reduced Risk. You're meaning the Risk of death is too low. The reward part in riskVSreward is loot/exp.
Let's put it this way. Say that the death penalty is you perma lose All gear, it is deleted instantly upon death. Now let's say I want a death penalty that is only Armor is perma deleted but you keep weapons. Your semantic is that keeping weapons is a reward. Mine is that death is a lower risk. Losing ANY items is a penalty and not a reward, so losing less is still a penalty.
Doing a geared CR is still a penalty, it's Less of a penalty than naked CR, but is Not a reward. What you want is More risk (being the penalty), reward is in what you get from the content.
Sorry bro these are semantics and I'm actually on your side of harsh death penalties! :)
Xxar said:It me or is this game starting to get more watered down from the original vision that we backed or what ?
Its just you. You envisioned some strange hard-core game that would scare away 10s of thousands of people. That was never the direction. Bazgrim made a great video highlighting a post made by Brad back in like 2016 or something where he said the death penalty would be somewhere between vanilla eq and vanilla VG
I may be dense, but nobody has been able to explain the disparity in the difficulty of dying and appearing at your bind spot with or without your equipped items.
In EQ once the server level was in the 40's what difference did it make if you died and appeared at your bind spot with equipped items or without? Even a Warrior (the only class that could not solo get their corpse (no invis, FD, etc) could travel back to the dungeon and walk to recover their corpse.
I am all for harsh death penalties. I do not want people dying as a means for a quick port on a regular basis. However, people jump on the idea that dying without equipped items vs with equipped items are more "risky," when a Warrior could solo recover their corpse with zero problems. That is the question I have been asking and nobody has been able to answer: what makes recovering your corpse more difficult without equipped items vs with equipped items? Depending on the class it would be zero difference or wait for the dungeon to be over camped; either way, you could solo get your corpse back in EQ. In both cases, the equipped items you have will not help or hinder your progress in recovering a corpse solo.
Hokanu said: Just the added stats of ac / mana / dps that your equipment give. Could be the difference between making a zone line and not I'd say @Chogar. That's about it. Doesn't make a difference when you can bypass all the mobs though and ensure no hits come your way which sounds like what your saying
That is exactly what I am saying. People have a fondness to believe that when you die in EQ that your corpse may never be recovered and all items are lost. That is not what happened in EQ, especially as the server got higher in level. The Warrior (the most affected by being naked) could walk to their corpse solo and retrieve all of their items (on a continual basis). What happened at that point? Dragging the corpse to the zone line and asking for a rez.
For the record, I want corpse runs.
What I do not see is a group of players making it more or less difficult by having their equipped items. Why? Because most groups pulled to a "safe" location (AKA: where mobs did not wander or spawn). If things went south the Cleric would camp so they could re-log in 3-4 minutes and start the resurrection cycle (and today wait in Discord for the all-clear). The majority of corpse runs were not fighting back to your corpse but having friends, groupmates, or other players get your corpse. In either case, having your equipped items (or not) would not change anything because most corpse recoveries in EQ did not involve fighting back to your corpse.
I know a lot of people here won't take it into consideration and honestly, given it's only one poll this question was asked, that's not enough history to form a good concept as to what people generally want. That's even with a good sample size. With that said, this was what was found...
Questionaire #7
Sample Size: 467
Value Distribution (Death Penalty): 1 Extremely Mild; 10 Extremely Punishing
Multimodal = 5, 6, 7, 8
Median (elimination method) = 39 remaining @ value of 7
Mean = 6.42
This means by that bar graph alone, you're looking at 6.42 which fits as a bit less punishing than what is currently considered by Joppa.
Chogar said:Hokanu said: Just the added stats of ac / mana / dps that your equipment give. Could be the difference between making a zone line and not I'd say @Chogar. That's about it. Doesn't make a difference when you can bypass all the mobs though and ensure no hits come your way which sounds like what your saying
That is exactly what I am saying. People have a fondness to believe that when you die in EQ that your corpse may never be recovered and all items are lost. That is not what happened in EQ, especially as the server got higher in level. The Warrior (the most affected by being naked) could walk to their corpse solo and retrieve all of their items (on a continual basis). What happened at that point? Dragging the corpse to the zone line and asking for a rez.
For the record, I want corpse runs.
What I do not see is a group of players making it more or less difficult by having their equipped items. Why? Because most groups pulled to a "safe" location (AKA: where mobs did not wander or spawn). If things went south the Cleric would camp so they could re-log in 3-4 minutes and start the resurrection cycle (and today wait in Discord for the all-clear). The majority of corpse runs were not fighting back to your corpse but having friends, groupmates, or other players get your corpse. In either case, having your equipped items (or not) would not change anything because most corpse recoveries in EQ did not involve fighting back to your corpse.
I don't think that first part is true... If the dungeon or zone was full of people and everyone was killing everything then yes they could just walk back to their corpse... but, when everyone is past that dungeon or zone it becomes way more difficult then just walk back to corpse... I know there was another guy saying once you get past the curve it becomes a lot easier to get your corpse and I will definatley agree with that.... especially for some classes not all
Now to your second point... with the cleric camping... Yes 100% agree...
Nephele said:Yesterday, Joppa stopped by the unofficial Discord server for Pantheon and shared what the team is leaning towards for Pantheon's Death Penalty. Here is what he said:
When you die:
- Return to your bind spot
- Lose X% of current experience towards next level
- Large durability hit to worn equipment (if we implement durability, which we probably will)
- Respawn with the gear you were wearing when you died still equipped.
- All general inventory remains on corpse, must be looted to retrieve. This includes money.
- Resurrection abilities will return an amount of lost exp. All priest classes will boast the same exp return for their rezzes.Obviously, things can still change between now and launch but there are a lot of implications to all of this and it is probably worthy of discussion. Since no one else created a thread yet, I figured I would get that started.
PS: If you are a Crafter or even just want to talk about durability and how crafters are involved, there is a thread specifically for that in the Crafting section: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12175/crafter-s-roundtable-death-durability-and-repairs/view/post_id/237538
So after yesterday's stream Joppa explained that based on the difficulty involved in returning to your corpse while naked, even as a full group, would be impossible. The ability to safely drag corpses will also be very limited.
I suspect this means that mob density will be fairly high, evasion technics will be pretty low, and bind points will be fairly distant. Character power level, even for casters, will also be highly dependent on the gear you wear and therefor a lack of gear will be a disadvantage far larger than EQ for any class other than warrior.
Joppa also implied that they will be looking for feedback on the Exp loss and the potential to delevel. Until we actually experience the flow of Pantheon personally picking at the exact nature of death penalties is premature.
Hokanu said: @Xxar I think when Joppa cited the 2 hour play time with some meaningful progress today with regards to death penalty, everything clicked into place for me re naked corpse runs.
This exemplifies why I think that the 2-hour session target is a poor decision and makes it virtually impossible to recreate what many of us have been missing for a long time.
I just don't see how you can expect people to find/organize a group, travel to an agreed-upon location, fight your way to the core content -- with pauses long enought to socialize and bond -- and get safely out again in two hours without making travel and dungeon crawling too fast, and therefore trivial. If, on the top of that, you penalize death by forcing players to do something tedious and time consuming enough to make them be more careful next time, the 2 hours become a ridiculously short time.
I want a death penalty as severe as anybody, but the 2-hour "tenet" seems to make that a delusion. I could go on about why I think the idea that the target player is now older and have RL commitments is a misconception, but that's not this thread.
Ranarius said:Yeah, my only issue with it at this point is people using the death mechanics to explore freely, experiment freely, port out freely, etc. Without de-leveling in the game it seems like death will be used in those ways regularly.
This is a great point you make Ranarius, thank you. Alas, de-leveling risk needs to be there, especially at higher levels to keep higher levels engaged and avoid that 'permanent cushion' at end game. De-leveling helps with compromise and keeping people engaged at all levels. This concept should not be difficult for VR to comprehend. I am not against respawning with full gear-set & durability, but I also recognize Pantheon still needs to be different from WoW and the like.
Jabir said:Hokanu said: @Xxar I think when Joppa cited the 2 hour play time with some meaningful progress today with regards to death penalty, everything clicked into place for me re naked corpse runs.This exemplifies why I think that the 2-hour session target is a poor decision and makes it virtually impossible to recreate what many of us have been missing for a long time.
I just don't see how you can expect people to find/organize a group, travel to an agreed-upon location, fight your way to the core content -- with pauses long enought to socialize and bond -- and get safely out again in two hours without making travel and dungeon crawling too fast, and therefore trivial. If, on the top of that, you penalize death by forcing players to do something tedious and time consuming enough to make them be more careful next time, the 2 hours become a ridiculously short time.
I want a death penalty as severe as anybody, but the 2-hour "tenet" seems to make that a delusion. I could go on about why I think the idea that the target player is now older and have RL commitments is a misconception, but that's not this thread.
I think you are hitting on one the key secondary contributors to what makes a death penalty painful.
In the context of 4-6 2 hour sessions a week, losing 2 hours’ worth of exp and needing to travel and fight back to your corpse ends up costing you a huge portion of your weekly play time. Doubly so if you need to spend more than 15 of those 120 minutes just finding a group to begin with and another 15 to arrive in the desired zone.
In the context of someone playing 6-10 hours a day 7 days a week though losing 3 hours of grinding between exp loss and extra combat required travel is not as significant. It is the same amount of loss but from the perspective of the player it’s a much lower percentage of available play time.
What will be brutal for one group will be a speed bump for the other and what will be brutal for the second group will likely lead to the first unsubscribing.
Trasak said:What will be brutal for one group will be a speed bump for the other and what will be brutal for the second group will likely lead to the first unsubscribing.
I am in your first group and I can say that the only reason I could ever expect anyone to unsubscribe due to death penalties is if the game is not fun at all levels. If your only goal in the game is to reach max level then yes, people might get mad enough when dying to unsubscribe. My goal will be to have fun at all levels, even when dying. I plan to play 2-3 hours a night 5 nights a week. If I die (which I will) and that "erases" my progress from a previous session that will only extend how long I end up enjoying the game.