I'm relieved that you will spawn with your gear. This means the game will be more likely to survive the first year.
Naked CRs is "one of" the biggest reasons why EQ went free-to-play, and the only reason people still play it today is because they now spawn with their gear equiped after death. You should never ever ever have to petition an employee as a guild to continue "playing" a "game" (that you pay for) because the intentional game mechanics has made it impossible for you to continue playing without GM intervention. That is a recipe for loss subscriptions which would = staff reductions, which = suffered development, which = loss subscriptions, which = free-to-play model with micro transactions or dead game.
I preferr geared respawn to microtransactions or a failed game due to the inability to maintain subscriptions any day; Fortunately VR appears to understand that subscriptions (and pledges) matter more than the opinions of the minority. If you can't pay your devs, you have no game, and I have yet to see a good free-to-play game without micro-transactions. Please keep the game subscription based.
Just because you spawn with your equipment does not make this "WoW 2.0" as some people have commented... that is still nothing like WoW (where you can just return to your corpse with 0 danger).
I'm curious about the gear degradation on death. Or to be more precise, how it will be repaired. On death, will a player need both a healer to return exp AND a crafter to repair their gear before they can return to action? Or will the crafters make and sell repair kits that can be purchased anytime and carried in the players inventory or stored in banks. Or, will it be an NPC doing the repairs like WoW. I know these are things that aren't decided on yet, just curious what it will end up being.
Darch said:I'm relieved that you will spawn with your gear. This means the game will be more likely to survive the first year.
Naked CRs is "one of" the biggest reasons why EQ went free-to-play, and the only reason people still play it today is because they now spawn with their gear equiped after death. You should never ever ever have to petition an employee as a guild to continue "playing" a "game" (that you pay for) because the intentional game mechanics has made it impossible for you to continue playing without GM intervention. That is a recipe for loss subscriptions which would = staff reductions, which = suffered development, which = loss subscriptions, which = free-to-play model with micro transactions or dead game.I preferr geared respawn to microtransactions or a failed game due to the inability to maintain subscriptions any day; Fortunately VR appears to understand that subscriptions (and pledges) matter more than the opinions of the minority. If you can't pay your devs, you have no game, and I have yet to see a good free-to-play game without micro-transactions. Please keep the game subscription based.
Just because you spawn with your equipment does not make this "WoW 2.0" as some people have commented... that is still nothing like WoW (where you can just return to your corpse with 0 danger).
What you say about EQ is just wrong. You may be surprised to learn that naked corpse runs were a big part of the Classic Everquest Trilogy (you know, the era of EQ that Brad was a part of). You may also be surprised that it was during this time of EQ that saw great increases in subscriptions. It was after this period when subscriptions began to decline due to poor decisions and crappy changes (just like the ones you mention). Brad was long gone when that happened of course - duh! The golden era of EQ was indeed the Classic Trilogy that Brad made. It was also in this era where naked corpse runs were central to EQ. Davos: sorry, but you could not be more incorrect on what you stated. Also, the less Pantheon is like WoW the better imho.
I've always been a strong proponent of naked corpse runs as I saw this as the only way people would truly fear death and therefore respect the world around them. When I first saw this I was quite disappointed but then it was pointed out that, unlike in EQ, the challenge level may be so difficult that getting back to your corpse without gear would not be possible. If that turns out to be the case then this seems like a decent compromise. That is why testing will be so important to fine tune this extremely important mechanic. I would still prefer to see loss of xp and possible level loss than xp debt but I can live with what is proposed.
The people here asking for naked corpse runs in order to bring back hard gameplay and the glory of yore are asking for some weak half-measures. Spawning with your equipped gear may be like flea bites but doing the same corpse run naked sure as hell isn't a bear mauling your back, it's more like getting slapped in the face.
If you actually want the proverbial bear mauling your back when you die and you really want to feel a Death Penalty, then you need to:
-Completely abolish PvE realms, full loot PvP everywhere (except inns and banks) is the only option
-Remove gear durability, gear or items can be destroyed when you die and not all may drop
-No restrictions on who you can attack, this includes guild members
-Major cities and starter areas have NPC guards as a punitive measure, not protective
-Remove any possible play nice policies
-Only rule in-game is no IRL death threats and no permacamping people unless it (camping) gives you a financial or other advantage
-Inns are the only possible bind points, remove any and all abilities that let you bind somewhere else
-Introduce skill loss on death (this includes both combat skills like daggers, swords, and so on and also in addition crafting skills) but we're not completely unreasonable so let's say you lose 15% of your experience points across the board per death
-Skill loss on death can be countered by purchasing a soul vial from an innkeeper (only one at a time per character, these cannot stack and cannot be traded since it's not actually a physical item)
-Due to dropping all your gear, coin and other items in your inventory, you will have to go into debt when purchasing the soul vial and you will have to make it back to your bank to repay the innkeeper (or alternatively have someone trade you cash in the inn)
-You cannot make any purchases when in debt, including soul vials
-It is possible to delevel back to lvl 1 if you're not competent enough to survive
-If you are advocating for hard and punishing gameplay yet disagree with any of the above, you are a coward and mentally deficient
When all of the above is implemented we can enjoy a nice, social, and cooperative experience that we yearn for. Dedicated scouts will be worth their weight in platinum and intelligence channels will be bustling with activity day and night. Drama abound on forums as entities sort out their disagreements and spies are seeded into both ranks. Before long guilds start forming alliances and eventually alliances merge into coalitions. Coalitions will police their territories and quickly form to defend themselves against any outside incursion. A sandbox heaven, truly.
However, if we stop contending about flea bites and bear maulings we can instead be content in this user friendly themepark that doesn't require us to sacrifice our non-virtual lives. I'll play either but I don't want to get slapped in the face.
Thorndeep said:I've always been a strong proponent of naked corpse runs as I saw this as the only way people would truly fear death and therefore respect the world around them. When I first saw this I was quite disappointed but then it was pointed out that, unlike in EQ, the challenge level may be so difficult that getting back to your corpse without gear would not be possible. If that turns out to be the case then this seems like a decent compromise. That is why testing will be so important to fine tune this extremely important mechanic. I would still prefer to see loss of xp and possible level loss than xp debt but I can live with what is proposed.
Thorndeep - good point. I agree that the death penalty should be significant since respawning with all your equipped gear is significant. The experience-loss should be substantial and deleveling should definitely be possible now with what Joppa has revealed. The incentive to get back to your corpse should be more significant than what is in OP. This would be a fair compromise since respawning with all your gear after death will be significant in its own right!
Could be worse, but still disappointing. I would have rather seen the original EQ1 Death/Delevel penalties kept. I thought the class interdependence of corpse recovery mechanics was definitely a key part of the social and dynamic EQ1 experience. For corpse recovery alone, it made Rogues important. It made Feign Death classes like Monks and SKs unique and important. It made Bards and other classes with Invis and Invis vs Undead important. It gave corpse summoning mechanics to SKs and Necros to aid in corpse recovery as well, which gave them further importance and unique expertise. Corpse dragging and recovery was an art form for some, especially in highly dangerous dungeons. I would have liked to have seen Pantheon emphasize even more these creative ways for various classes to specialize in helping others recover from wipes, this just de-emphasizes those unique talents and classes. It does make the game less difficult and less social though. Now the group just runs back and fights back down, no different then respawning as a ghost in WoW and zoning back into your instance to fight back down. I feel like they missed the boat on giving certain classes even more corpse recovery techniques as a way to make CRs in general more manageable.
As for deleveling, why in God's name would you take that out? At max level and with raiding it made dying matter. Eventually, sometimes sooner than later, even with the 90% rezzes, it forced you to get back out in the world to group up and level grind for a bit. I get that they are doing AA points which have a similar effect, but at some point people will have those maxed as well. Everytime they shift this game to the left further and further away from EQ1, it just makes me sad.
Tabian said:The people here asking for naked corpse runs in order to bring back hard gameplay and the glory of yore are asking for some weak half-measures. Spawning with your equipped gear may be like flea bites but doing the same corpse run naked sure as hell isn't a bear mauling your back, it's more like getting slapped in the face.
If you actually want the proverbial bear mauling your back when you die and you really want to feel a Death Penalty, then you need to:
-Completely abolish PvE realms, full loot PvP everywhere (except inns and banks) is the only option
-Remove gear durability, gear or items can be destroyed when you die and not all may drop
-No restrictions on who you can attack, this includes guild members
-Major cities and starter areas have NPC guards as a punitive measure, not protective
-Remove any possible play nice policies
-Only rule in-game is no IRL death threats and no permacamping people unless it (camping) gives you a financial or other advantage
-Inns are the only possible bind points, remove any and all abilities that let you bind somewhere else
-Introduce skill loss on death (this includes both combat skills like daggers, swords, and so on and also in addition crafting skills) but we're not completely unreasonable so let's say you lose 15% of your experience points across the board per death
-Skill loss on death can be countered by purchasing a soul vial from an innkeeper (only one at a time per character, these cannot stack and cannot be traded since it's not actually a physical item)
-Due to dropping all your gear, coin and other items in your inventory, you will have to go into debt when purchasing the soul vial and you will have to make it back to your bank to repay the innkeeper (or alternatively have someone trade you cash in the inn)
-You cannot make any purchases when in debt, including soul vials
-It is possible to delevel back to lvl 1 if you're not competent enough to survive
-If you are advocating for hard and punishing gameplay yet disagree with any of the above, you are a coward and mentally deficientWhen all of the above is implemented we can enjoy a nice, social, and cooperative experience that we yearn for. Dedicated scouts will be worth their weight in platinum and intelligence channels will be bustling with activity day and night. Drama abound on forums as entities sort out their disagreements and spies are seeded into both ranks. Before long guilds start forming alliances and eventually alliances merge into coalitions. Coalitions will police their territories and quickly form to defend themselves against any outside incursion. A sandbox heaven, truly.
However, if we stop contending about flea bites and bear maulings we can instead be content in this user friendly themepark that doesn't require us to sacrifice our non-virtual lives. I'll play either but I don't want to get slapped in the face.
PVP or PVE ruleset is a separate issue than Death penalty. Open world PVP would most certainly be a more difficult environment to survive in, but that doesn’t effect the death penalty, even though it may increase the frequency of death.
That said, your suggestions, even if satire, are better than the ones in the OP, that in my opinion violate the game tenets posted on this very website, and shows that Pantheon is moving away from old school thinking (niche crowd) and towards modern mmo thinking (Mass appeal).
Game Tenets
An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.
https://pantheonmmo.com/game/game_tenets/
I certainly think there’s room for a middle ground approach here, but if the death penalty has been softened, likely in favor of more marketability, and being kept secret, what other areas are being affected that haven't been leaked “unofficially”. How many Tenets are left in pantheon? Or should we expect to play World of Pantheoncraft.
aah, those days in EQ1 when you died deep in a the dungeon and reappear naked. The risk of losing everything you worked so hard for lost in an instant! That was a terrifying scenario that made you scared of dying.
But this scenario can turn into a nightmare when you die just before you have to leave the game or the people who could get your corpse had to leave or your internet connection fails before giving consent. You do not want that nightmare scenario. Then the loss is out of control and the damage is really huge.
I really enjoyed the thrill a dungeon crawl with the 'being naked' as death penaly as long the nightmare scenario never happened. I was never afraid of Xp loss, that was maybe a nuisance at best to me.
Pantheon should really make sure that there is a really big need of getting your corpse back. Appearing naked is one of them. But try to avoid the nightmare scenario where everything is really lost due to forces beyond a players control. For example having the gear you lost automatically returned within 12 hours and/or return it with the durability almost 0%.
I think some people are over-reacting based on personal assumptions, but that's normal I guess.
It is an important topic and a concern. Death penalty is fundamental to the feel of the game.
Before I comment, I want people to know I want a *hard* death penalty, but, like any feature, I don't want it to necessarily match EQ/VG just 'because'.
I want death to be feared enough such that it reinforces the slow pace of the game. So that groups *can't* rush because it is too dangerous/frightening/worrying to do so. I want to feel geniune excitement when I dice with death in Pantheon.
That said: -
- Return to your bind spot
We don't know how punishing this will be in itself. Depends on how flexible 'binding' is. Might, at best, take you all the way back to a nearby city every time as far as we know. Might take you to another continent if you couldn't manage to (or forgot to) get bound locally before you died.
- Lose X% of current experience towards next level
I know the wording kinda indicates no level loss, but do we know that for sure? Also, we don't know how much.
- Large durability hit to worn equipment (if we implement durability, which we probably will)
We don't know how large. If we will have to go to a town NPC for repairs every 3 or 4 deaths that will be punishing. I personally find the concept a bit of a mundane tedium, but I'm willing to accept it as part of the sting of death.
- Respawn with the gear you were wearing when you died still equipped.
- All general inventory remains on corpse, must be looted to retrieve. This includes money.
At anything but low level no one wants to lose their bags. In EQ, Evil Eye bags and the like were as prized as much of your gear, never mind the contents. To want to regain XP is motivation enough for some. To need to regain one's bags, clickies, potions, etc is going to be less desperate than one's gear, sure, but I really doubt anyone will be leaving bags behind.
Will people sometimes, when going into an unknown area, plan ahead and not take their most precious baggage, clickies, potions in case they need to abandon a corpse? Yes. Is that bad? I kinda like the idea of travelling light when making dangerous 'probing' journies into the unknown. It's another aspect of meaningful planning. I also kinda like the idea of going to town to prepare for an extended 'adventure' trip. Do some banking, get some repairs, decide which equipment to take instead of just leaving yourself loaded down with as much of your stuff as possible.
The most important aspect of this idea is VR can happily balance encounters and travel to be consitently hard. That is a huge reason to be happy for this.
Also it means GMs won't need to be responding to petitions for 'irretrievable' corpses anywhere near as much. You disconnected while running through a lava cavern deep in a dungeon? Oh well. You've got your gear. Get in a group and go get your equipment or just take the hit of losing your bags (surely you weren't carrying anything too precious through such a dangerous place?).
Also, we don't know whether corpses will be as easy to retrieve as they were in EQ. Will they be draggable? Even while climbing? Will there be summons? Will teleporting and invisibility be as functional?
- Resurrection abilities will return an amount of lost exp. All priest classes will boast the same exp return for their rezzes.
We don't know how much this will be. Were it me, I would never allow resurrections to get anywhere near to 96% like they did in classic EQ. Resurrection should be a little bit of XP (much like returning to your corpse yourself), but, if it's like EQ, the fact that it teleports you to your corpse is a large reason to do it in itself. Low level rez should be *worse* than returning manually, XP-wise. High level rez should be better XP, but not much. There should maybe be degrees of rez 'sickness'.
When you got to high level in EQ, death penalty, including the naked corpse run, was largely trivial. There were a ton of ways to achieve it and the after-effects were next-to-nothing. I would want it harder than that.
Lastly: People should bear in mind that this is one of those mechanics that VR have consistently said will need to be tested and tuned according to community feedback. Pantheon non-naked corpse runs could be tuned to be much more punishing generally and consistently through the levels than EQ ever was.
Darch said:
Naked CRs is "one of" the biggest reasons why EQ went free-to-play, and the only reason people still play it today is because they now spawn with their gear equiped after death.
You really gotta get a way to stop exposing your opinion as facts. No source, no proofs, not even true then.
This topic has been highlighted as part of my CM content, please respect the forum guidelines and continue the discussion.
"Hot Topic - Death Penalty - With more details revealed from our very own Joppa, what are your thoughts? https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12176/pantheon-s-death-penalty-joppa-reveal-from-july-25th#MMORPG#CommunityMatters"
Nephele said:...
- Return to your bind spot
- Lose X% of current experience towards next level
- Large durability hit to worn equipment (if we implement durability, which we probably will)
- Respawn with the gear you were wearing when you died still equipped.
- All general inventory remains on corpse, must be looted to retrieve. This includes money.
- Resurrection abilities will return an amount of lost exp. All priest classes will boast the same exp return for their rezzes....
It is still subject to change and will undergo testing. So for me, it doesn't make sense to shoot it down before it's experienced.
-When bind spots are far in between. The time traveling from that point to your corpse will chew away a good chunk of your dungeoncrawl. (therefore not negatively influencing the mood of your game session)
-Quickly you think about end game. losing xp is just one of the several things that occurs when dieing. If one can create a xp depth that is a bottomless pit, well. Even at end content, I wouldn't want to die too often. Or when new content is added, it would take me a lot longer to actual get to that first new level. And this "penalty" can be perceived as really important for those that really want to progress in the game. You just might be working to clear your debt for weeks to come, if you take dieing at end content lightly. That seems severe enough for me. I don't need a downleveling on top of that.
- Durability loss can really be felt when gear can break down completely after losing full durability. The actual details of this is still unknown (to me at least). If items cannot break but just lose durability, they can still become un-equippable untill repaired. This again, can be experienced as being quite severe, because this means that at some point you might not be able to get your corpse back, because you need to repair your worn-down gear (notice: not broken). I find that still a good penalty. I might be ok dieing a couple of times, but I wouldn't want to risk losing my inventory if I can't make it back in time.
- Having equipped gear on you when reviving, that makes sense, especially with the increased challenge within this game. It just might be near impossible to get your corpse without gear. And that's a good thing.
- I enjoy the approach about inventory dropped on death. If it's bags included, you'll want to go back. I'm curious to see what kind of timer they will be setting on it. Perhaps based on ingame time, it could be several hours. I wouldn't want to see corpses laying there for 24 hours. And if your corpse deteriorates after certain time has passed, it will be an extra motivator to make that corpse run and it rises in the priority list a bit more. I like that money is also dropped. If you're not careful, it's a good moneysink and players will really be impacted by dieing too often and not doing corpse runs (for example when grinding xp).
- Rezzes with xp return. I'm not sure why that's needed to be fair. Even in a group or raid, I want to prevent dieing at all costs. I just hope it's not a big return. Also when you reach your corpse, that recovery of xp should not be that big either. In fact, I would choose to have priests return more xp than if you're catching your own corpse. Because at the very least, you've contacted someone within the game. And that tiny touch, means community is still interacting with one another. It's one of many subtle ways to stimulate player interaction. Every bit helps. Overall, I find that if xp can be returned, you're removing the sharp edge of the death penalty. And my remark here would be, why do you want to remove that? You can just work out an algorithm that calibrates different rates of xp loss, when dieing under various circumstances. Fighting solo? XP loss = %, fighting in group? xp loss = % fighting in raid? xp loss =% dieing by environment xp loss x%, dieing by mob xp loss x%, death by a mob lower then your level? xp loss x %, equal to your level? xp loss x%, heroic mob or raid mob ? similar approach. The more reckless the more xp you'll lose would be my approach.
Is there any recent info on possibility of deleveling from experience-loss? Again, respawning with all your armor and held items is significant, which should equate to the death penalties being significant (what is in OP does not equate to being significant). I can live with there being no naked CR's, but the death penalties would need to make corpse recovery much more worthy than what is in OP.
Visionary Realms: It's about tenets and compromise. Myself and others are open to compromise, but the death penalties need to be harsher now especially with what Joppa has revealed about respawning with all your equipped gear and weapons. The experience lost from death should be quite more significant than what was first thought, and deleveling from death should definitely be possible now. Let's see more compromise.
"- Lose X% of current experience towards next level"
Does that mean there won't be de-leveling?
If so, I think that's a huge mistake. Once you hit max level, the death penalty goes out the window. There won't be any incentive to get rez'd. This is how it was in Vanguard, and people didn't care about dieing and let their exp debt max out when they hit 50. The exp loss made no difference since they never raised the level cap. And if they ever happened to raise the level cap in Vanguard, it wouldn't have taken long to get out of exp debt.
The death penalty / game should get harder at max level. Not easier...
Wellspring said:"- Lose X% of current experience towards next level"
Does that mean there won't be de-leveling?
If so, I think that's a huge mistake. Once you hit max level, the death penalty goes out the window. There won't be any incentive to get rez'd. This is how it was in Vanguard, and people didn't care about dieing and let their exp debt max out when they hit 50. The exp loss made no difference since they never raised the level cap. And if they ever happened to raise the level cap in Vanguard, it wouldn't have taken long to get out of exp debt.
The death penalty / game should get harder at max level. Not easier...
It would be more interesting if it worked the other way, indeed.
At max level, any death could drop you back to the previous level!
None of that 'comfortable end-game' feeling!
The purpose of a death penalty is to make combat exciting. If there are no consequences for failure, then failure is not to be feared. You are often encouraged to do risky things as the gains of doing challenging content far out weight the consequence of failure. This tends to lead to boredom and complacency as even failure is just a slight delay before you can continue so there is no excitement.
On the other hand if there are sever penalties for failure then players will play more conservatively and will be forced to be more attentive. This will often lead to a dopamine response when things go pear shaped. That dopamine response is what gamers are often after and what keeps people coming back, dopamine is very addictive.
From a game design perspective triggering a dopamine response is a numbers game. Not every player will have a dopamine response from the same experience. Not all players are even interested in playing a game with high enough stress levels to induce a dopamine response, they play to relax not amp up. Therefor designing content needs focused on the largest percentage of your target audience and just allow the outliers to be a bit dissatisfied, you can’t please everyone any time or anyone all of the time.
One way to handle this difference might be creating content with a sliding death penalty rather than just a higher likelihood of death. In beginner areas the penalty can be fairly light as mistakes happen when you are learning the game. The first real boost in difficulty can be where you start seeing permeant losses when you fail. High challenge and or endgame could be amped up to a whole new level. The divisions could be by zone, mob type engaged, character level or even a manual toggle.
For example:
Death lvls 1-20:
Death lvls 21-40:
Death lvls 41-50:
The above assumes that;
Raids or specific zones could add additional penalties on top of level tier penalties unique to the situation:
Along side increase risk of dying and increased penalty for dying the reward should also increase but not as fast as the danger.
HemlockReaper said:That said, your suggestions, even if satire, are better than the ones in the OP, that in my opinion violate the game tenets posted on this very website, and shows that Pantheon is moving away from old school thinking (niche crowd) and towards modern mmo thinking (Mass appeal).
My suggestions were only partially satire. What I fear would happen if naked corpse runs were implemented is that one of the three following scenarios occurs:
1) Gear gives such a minuscule boost to your character's power that it doesn't matter if you are even wearing it in the first place. Maybe your time to kill is slightly higher naked than it is fully geared but the gear is ultimately not needed. MMORPGs most often are gear treadmills so what's the point of acquiring that badass looking weapon or piece of gear if it does next to nothing?
2) Gear is actually needed and the mobs are difficult enough that there is no way you could fight your way back to your corpse naked, even with a full group. Another fully geared group is needed to clear the path or you will need a necromancer to summon your corpse (or some other means of remote corpse retrieval).
3) No one actually does group content as a single group, everything is zerged. Penalty for dying is deemed too high so the standard practice is to bring two groups, or more, for content that is designed for a single 6-man party. This of course makes the game more social but the difficulty aspect vanishes.
Of those three the second is, in my opinion, the desired scenario. However, this goes directly against their stated wish to have you be able to accomplish something of significance in the game in chunks of two hours or less. This wouldn't be an issue if your average game session lasted six hours on a Saturday afternoon but alas, that is often not the case. Fighting the death mechanics for half, or more, of your play session instead of fighting virtual dragons probably isn't what attracts enough people for a healthy playerbase. Could Pantheon survive as the niche game you and some others strongly desire? I don't know. Neither am I at all sure if the proposed corpse run change (equipped gear stays on you, inventory drops to your corpse) is enough to turn this into something that appeals to the masses.
HemlockReaper said:I certainly think there’s room for a middle ground approach here, but if the death penalty has been softened, likely in favor of more marketability, and being kept secret, what other areas are being affected that haven't been leaked “unofficially”. How many Tenets are left in pantheon? Or should we expect to play World of Pantheoncraft.
I was going to write that their current tenets are copy-pasted directly from their 2014 Kickstarter but upon further inspection that is not exactly true. "An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward." was worded in the Kickstarter as "An expectation that the path of least resistance should also be the most entertaining.", which to me sounds a bit weird. But anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of those tenets had gotten axed over the years and/or during leadership change (if you can call it that in this instance...) because there are things listed on the Pantheon Difference page that most likely are not going to end up in the game--colored mana, anyone?
I don't know how strongly we should even lean on the game tenets, FAQ, or any other section the website either. For example on their pledge page (my favorite topic!) it is still stated that the $10k Ascendant's pledge gives you an invitation to spend two days on-site at their California HQ. This sounds rather odd considering they publicly stated earlier this month that VR doesn't do any business in California anymore and that the company is based in Delaware. This was discussed in a thread earlier this month but our Australian forum god locked it, citing negative topic title as the reason before hitting delete mere moments after. Do they even have a physical office anymore, or did they ever? At least their California address has stuff like Supercuts and Thai Pasta, can't see a VR logo anywhere on google maps street view. Delaware's registered agent information has the address to Corporation Service Company. Makes me wonder where they'll have all the dozen whales go to for a tour.
Euther said:This just about ruined all hope for a "next level" MMO. it's WoW 2.0 , not "the next mmo you've been waiting for".
EQ1 was horribly rough on death because everyone was on dial up (mostly) and dropped packets / game link dead was a constant issue with the servers and local players. the randon disconnect and death is NOT nearly as much of an issue - time to stop panding to the lowest common denominator makes that game lowest common denominator.
one of the things about EQ1 was (up to PoP) : you grouped with level 30+, you KNEW you had good players with you who weren't inconsiderate jerks (for the most part).
These plans make it so that no matter how bad you suck, you still win.
There so many incredible things wrong with the below
- Lose X% of current experience towards next level
Fear of death greatly lessened. and even worse at max level, you can just run around lower levels training everyone. The respect for raiding and raiders and raid loot = out the window, for me at least - not like you lost levels.
- Large durability hit to worn equipment (if we implement durability, which we probably will)
Like in WoW - where worst case you don't get the bonus stats, but never, ever lose gear ? unless it's a durability system like Dark age of camelet where after 1-2 years, you might have to replace your gear (hello crafters = valuable). Laughable penalty. LAUGHABLE. been there done that, and LOL.
- Respawn with the gear you were wearing when you died still equipped. What happened to the planned need of backup gear in the bank ???
go to a dungeon, equip some cheap bags, and when you wipe and die, no fear, no revenge, no groups required , no respect for the environment that ...gives you some exp debt and costs a bit of gold WoW style for repairs - laughable again.
EQ1 did this a few years into the game, levle 1-6 = respawn with gear. that's fine.
The entire tenant of respect the possible dangers of your environment ? it will be the rare case where you bag an item, don't wear it for yourself or a friend, and NEED to go back for your body or rez. laughable.
For Raid mobs and attempt at raid mobs - a kick of your body to the zone (or some other group grave restoration place : for an in game money fee) is very appropriate and doesn't affect EVERYONE not raiding.
and then if you can invis / sneak - no fear of death, run in with no bags or money and go to town, never having earned the levels or experience you should have to seek out and explore new dungeons or named.
Bard and necro locate corpse,
necro or shadowknight coffin summon,
mage call of hero after you run deep in and get your corpse
Plus corsedrag from rogues, monks, invis to undead or invis classes, higher level character
another group to escort you back to your corpse.
caster classes with pets in the group to tank while you carefully get back to your corpse / group wipe.
letting you keep your weapon only after death to do dps to help the group fight back. Mana from casters is there.
An average recover from a group wipe in EQ1 was 15-20 minutes to get to the dungeon, and 30 minutes to fight back. and that's without external help, asking for help / giving help to a wiped group was very engaging, it's what made EQ1 social and fun - this removed all sense of that.
Terrible ideas Chris. Simply Gawd aweful terrible. We have ways to get corpses back, if you don't make them required 50+ (but around level 15+) then the player base can be friendly and challenged at the same time without quitting the game.
Im with this guy... he seems more upset about it then I but none the less I dont like it for all the reasons he listed....
I do not like item decay... that i am adamant about....
Nytman said:Euther said:This just about ruined all hope for a "next level" MMO. it's WoW 2.0 , not "the next mmo you've been waiting for".
EQ1 was horribly rough on death because everyone was on dial up (mostly) and dropped packets / game link dead was a constant issue with the servers and local players. the randon disconnect and death is NOT nearly as much of an issue - time to stop panding to the lowest common denominator makes that game lowest common denominator.
one of the things about EQ1 was (up to PoP) : you grouped with level 30+, you KNEW you had good players with you who weren't inconsiderate jerks (for the most part).
These plans make it so that no matter how bad you suck, you still win.
There so many incredible things wrong with the below
- Lose X% of current experience towards next level
Fear of death greatly lessened. and even worse at max level, you can just run around lower levels training everyone. The respect for raiding and raiders and raid loot = out the window, for me at least - not like you lost levels.
- Large durability hit to worn equipment (if we implement durability, which we probably will)
Like in WoW - where worst case you don't get the bonus stats, but never, ever lose gear ? unless it's a durability system like Dark age of camelet where after 1-2 years, you might have to replace your gear (hello crafters = valuable). Laughable penalty. LAUGHABLE. been there done that, and LOL.
- Respawn with the gear you were wearing when you died still equipped. What happened to the planned need of backup gear in the bank ???
go to a dungeon, equip some cheap bags, and when you wipe and die, no fear, no revenge, no groups required , no respect for the environment that ...gives you some exp debt and costs a bit of gold WoW style for repairs - laughable again.
EQ1 did this a few years into the game, levle 1-6 = respawn with gear. that's fine.
The entire tenant of respect the possible dangers of your environment ? it will be the rare case where you bag an item, don't wear it for yourself or a friend, and NEED to go back for your body or rez. laughable.
For Raid mobs and attempt at raid mobs - a kick of your body to the zone (or some other group grave restoration place : for an in game money fee) is very appropriate and doesn't affect EVERYONE not raiding.
and then if you can invis / sneak - no fear of death, run in with no bags or money and go to town, never having earned the levels or experience you should have to seek out and explore new dungeons or named.
Bard and necro locate corpse,
necro or shadowknight coffin summon,
mage call of hero after you run deep in and get your corpse
Plus corsedrag from rogues, monks, invis to undead or invis classes, higher level character
another group to escort you back to your corpse.
caster classes with pets in the group to tank while you carefully get back to your corpse / group wipe.
letting you keep your weapon only after death to do dps to help the group fight back. Mana from casters is there.
An average recover from a group wipe in EQ1 was 15-20 minutes to get to the dungeon, and 30 minutes to fight back. and that's without external help, asking for help / giving help to a wiped group was very engaging, it's what made EQ1 social and fun - this removed all sense of that.
Terrible ideas Chris. Simply Gawd aweful terrible. We have ways to get corpses back, if you don't make them required 50+ (but around level 15+) then the player base can be friendly and challenged at the same time without quitting the game.
Im with this guy... he seems more upset about it then I but none the less I dont like it for all the reasons he listed....
I do not like item decay... that i am adamant about....
Actually, come to think of it, I am too.
Syrif said:Nytman said:Euther said:This just about ruined all hope for a "next level" MMO. it's WoW 2.0 , not "the next mmo you've been waiting for".
*snip*
Terrible ideas Chris. Simply Gawd aweful terrible. We have ways to get corpses back, if you don't make them required 50+ (but around level 15+) then the player base can be friendly and challenged at the same time without quitting the game.
Im with this guy... he seems more upset about it then I but none the less I dont like it for all the reasons he listed....
I do not like item decay... that i am adamant about....
Actually, come to think of it, I am too.
Carebears. You just want a game that only has time loss as a penalty. Real hardcore players want there to be opportunity costs as well. EQ was too easy mode as you were just a cleric epic click away from getting right back to it with virtually no loss of time or opportunity.
*sarcasm off*
It is funny seeing what some people view as too little and too much penalty. Outside of the “If it is any different then EQ its crap” crowd (looks at Syrif and shakes his head), everyone has their own limits based on personal experience.
Durability that is really just a cash sink that is handled by a single click of an NPC is fairly lack luster of a penalty and I think we can do without. Durability damage that can result in destroyed items would need to be paired with a higher item drop rate and possibly an expensive way to rebuild damaged items through PC crafters. Functional item penalties based on item durability that can only be reversed through player crafter actions will actually drive player interdependency. If that action also requires farmed materials it is even more challenging.
All death penalties should be on the table until the right balance is found for Pantheon.