I'd rather have corpses beeing summoned in the surrounding of dungeon entrances, someish graveyards, but having to run there naked than respawning full of gear.
Also I support exp/lvl loss to make experience meaningull outside of just having "debts" to mastery points at level cap.
I agree that durability loss is ...unimpressive ...as a penalty. Loss of money hurts a bit but we will rapidly learn to keep almost all money in the bank to be taken out as needed. Loss of items may or may not sting significantly. I assume items will include any back-up gear not actually being worn at the time of death and if we carry multiple sets of good gear for differing condidtions loss of all backups until after a corpse run will make a real difference.
The key thing is how large the experience point penalty is. By this I mean how much xp you lose getting resurrected and never visiting the corpse as distinct from how much you lose after a corpse run. If the difference is trivial, corpse runs will be few and far between unless they are very easy os something or real importance was in inventory.
I definitely don't like this being revealed on Discord and not here on the *official* forums. I have no problem with it being mentioned there first since that wasn't an intentional announcement - but couldn't someone have spent 5 minutes posting a few sentances here afterwards?
Trasak said:“If it is any different then EQ its crap” crowd (looks at Syrif and shakes his head)
This isn't the first time I've seen such nonsense *cough* BS from you. I stated my opinion just as you have. Why resort to personal attacks? If I am from 'a crowd' that you mention, then why have I on more than one occasion praised MULTIPLE former mmorpg's such as DAOC, Ultima Online, VG and Brad's Classic EQ Trilogy? I don't even like EQ (nor EQ2 for that matter, so your ridiculous claim is false lol). And replaying in P1999 just does not interest me. I am at least open-minded enough to realize that looking to Oldschool for some inspiration may be a good thing at a time when mmorpg's like WoW suck at the moment. I won't just shake my head at you (lol), but I will keep my thoughts to myself and not respond to you nor any other personal attacks on this thread again. How about keep the thread on topic - thanks.
Here are my own thoughts on the death penalty as currently outlined:
- I feel like it needs de-leveling in order for it to still matter as much at max level.
- I don't want to see free-form binding as in EQ. Would rather binding is only possible at specific places in-world, and leverages some sort of object that people can "attune" to, rather than an NPC or PC casting a spell. Binding needs to be a level playing field, casters should not have an advantage.
- Side note: I also think there should be a difference between a respawn bind vs. a "home" bind.
- Durability will need to be implemented carefully in order to be and remain effective, especially at high levels. Players should not be able to trivialize durability simply by carrying around repair kits or whatever, BUT it should be paced so that it's not crippling unless they ignore it completely for a long time. Will probably post a "What would Neph Design" theorycraft in the roundtable thread here soon: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12175/crafter-s-roundtable-death-durability-and-repairs
- Corpse Runs are good, will encourage people to leverage banks and not simply carry everything on them at all times. Have more thoughts on how bank space could/should work here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8997/crazy-idea-for-bank-space-money-sink-and-alts
Nephele said:Here are my own thoughts on the death penalty as currently outlined:
- I feel like it needs de-leveling in order for it to still matter as much at max level.
- I don't want to see free-form binding as in EQ. Would rather binding is only possible at specific places in-world, and leverages some sort of object that people can "attune" to, rather than an NPC or PC casting a spell. Binding needs to be a level playing field, casters should not have an advantage.
- Side note: I also think there should be a difference between a respawn bind vs. a "home" bind.
- Durability will need to be implemented carefully in order to be and remain effective, especially at high levels. Players should not be able to trivialize durability simply by carrying around repair kits or whatever, BUT it should be paced so that it's not crippling unless they ignore it completely for a long time. Will probably post a "What would Neph Design" theorycraft in the roundtable thread here soon: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12175/crafter-s-roundtable-death-durability-and-repairs
- Corpse Runs are good, will encourage people to leverage banks and not simply carry everything on them at all times. Have more thoughts on how bank space could/should work here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8997/crazy-idea-for-bank-space-money-sink-and-alts
Nice ideas! I agree deleveling has become essential now especially with what has been revealed. And thank you for posting this original thread.
Nephele said:- Durability will need to be implemented carefully in order to be and remain effective, especially at high levels. Players should not be able to trivialize durability simply by carrying around repair kits or whatever, BUT it should be paced so that it's not crippling unless they ignore it completely for a long time.
I always liked how Diablo (the first one) handled it; Any player could repair their own gear at any time using the Repair skill, but doing so permanently reduced the max durability of the item. Only repairing at the blacksmith NPC would maintain the item's full durability. To make such a system more MMO friendly perhaps full gear repair could be something afforded high level player smiths.
HemlockReaper said: ... I certainly think there’s room for a middle ground approach here, but if the death penalty has been softened, likely in favor of more marketability, and being kept secret, what other areas are being affected that haven't been leaked “unofficially”. How many Tenets are left in pantheon? Or should we expect to play World of Pantheoncraft.
and from the Discord in the past few days:
The current FAQ specifically states ".. death .. will also not involve losing .. levels ..".
So, while it's true the current FAQ may be wrong, it has been that way for many years.
If de-leveling is now on the table, that would be, I think, the largest shift in design on this subject, so far, as it's not enumerated in Joppas July 2020 list.
Brad revealed the respawn with gear in 2019, and aside from the possibility of some mechanic involving the word 'durability', the rest have been public design goals for a very long time.
vjek said:HemlockReaper said: ... I certainly think there’s room for a middle ground approach here, but if the death penalty has been softened, likely in favor of more marketability, and being kept secret, what other areas are being affected that haven't been leaked “unofficially”. How many Tenets are left in pantheon? Or should we expect to play World of Pantheoncraft.
If you were inclined to comparison.. (from the FAQ today:)
and from the Discord in the past few days:
The current FAQ specifically states ".. death .. will also not involve losing .. levels ..".
So, while it's true the current FAQ may be wrong, it has been that way for many years.
If de-leveling is now on the table, that would be, I think, the largest shift in design on this subject, so far, as it's not enumerated in Joppas July 2020 list.
Brad revealed the respawn with gear in 2019, and aside from the possibility of some mechanic involving the word 'durability', the rest have been public design goals for a very long time.
The fact that the Current state of the game is Not reflected by the website is a problem.
Loxxulus said:
The fact that the Current state of the game is Not reflected by the website is a problem.
The Devs did say a new website is coming. They probably didn't want to have a major overhaul of the current website if the new site with new information is just around the corner.
And thats been said for years......
vjek said:HemlockReaper said: ... I certainly think there’s room for a middle ground approach here, but if the death penalty has been softened, likely in favor of more marketability, and being kept secret, what other areas are being affected that haven't been leaked “unofficially”. How many Tenets are left in pantheon? Or should we expect to play World of Pantheoncraft.
If you were inclined to comparison.. (from the FAQ today:)
and from the Discord in the past few days:
The current FAQ specifically states ".. death .. will also not involve losing .. levels ..".
So, while it's true the current FAQ may be wrong, it has been that way for many years.
If de-leveling is now on the table, that would be, I think, the largest shift in design on this subject, so far, as it's not enumerated in Joppas July 2020 list.
Brad revealed the respawn with gear in 2019, and aside from the possibility of some mechanic involving the word 'durability', the rest have been public design goals for a very long time.
VR: more clarification on what was made public would be appreciated. Respawning with all your gear and weapons is significant. The death penalty of losing significant experience with the possibility of deleveling from death(s) is now more essential than ever. Significant needs to counter significant. Not only would this be different from games like WoW, I am surprised deleveling from exp-loss accumulation has not already been announced with this knowledge that was made public.
If we are going to respawn with all of our gear and weapons without the possibility of deleveling from accumulation of significant experience-loss, then that is concerning. More compromise and clarification is needed on death regarding this and the vision and tenets of Pantheon.
HemlockReaper said:And thats been said for years......
Bah, it's only been .. 4+ years? You need to adjust your expectations, clearly.. ;)
" ... on the new forums, when they are ready to go live, no set time or date as yet though. " - Feb 29, 2016
For everyone saying they'll miss naked corpse runs, nobody is stopping you from taking off all your gear when you die. You can be the eccentric one dragging the team's recovery down more than the carefully designed speedbump to progress it's meant to be. Maybe make a guild or something for naked CR zealots, so they don't get booted from groups...? (Call it Streakers?) I can picture some of these folks also getting upset when they die a second time in a particularly rough spot with no help to be found, and all their gear was in their bags (you know, when they get what they wanted, and it turns out it sucks worse than nostalgia accounted for).
Obviously, my 2cp are that I'm fine with VR's version of DP. Naked corpse runs always disproportionately affected different classes based on gear dependence, group make-up, whether a wipe saw a group stick together, and what friends/guildmates you had access to. At least this way you have a fighting chance of getting back to your corpse. And seriously, who is going to leave all their stuff in their bags to rot? If there's something like my Goblin Gazughi Ring, Fungus Staff, or Circlet of Shadow sitting in there, better believe I'm motivated to get that stuff back. Heck, I'd do it for empty bags, because... bags. Naked corpse runs weren't that difficult anyway - most classes just realized they weren't fighting anything until they got their stuff back, with help if necessary. CR has always been a form of "punishment" that revolved around a loss of gainful play/time while still roping you into the game. If VR wants a play session to be doable around 2 hrs, that poor warrior who died soloing behind that respawned front gate may wait that long for help dragging his corpse out, depending on various factors. Fuuu-uuun, when all they wanted was to get a small chip of exp while sick at home during non-peak hours. CR should always be a speedbump, not a trainwreck.
These design decisions seem geared towards VR's ideas on play session length, a tweakable money sink (repairs) to help manage the economy, and a simple nudge to keep people from perma-camping content by necessitating repairs. Remember, this is not EQ, and EQ wasn't perfect, folks. That may not be enough to mollify the extreme masochists, but they're never happy anyway (and also simultaneously happy about that).
I like that compromise corpse run. It's a hard enough trek when you're properly geared for adventure, never mind nekid. So I like that you still have a CR, but you have a fighting chance of getting back to your corpse and recovering the rest of your loot. It'll also keep you mindful of what loot you're carrying around.
Nephele said:When you die:
- Return to your bind spot
- Lose X% of current experience towards next level
- Large durability hit to worn equipment (if we implement durability, which we probably will)
- Respawn with the gear you were wearing when you died still equipped.
- All general inventory remains on corpse, must be looted to retrieve. This includes money.
- Resurrection abilities will return an amount of lost exp. All priest classes will boast the same exp return for their rezzes.
"Bind point", thats expected
"Lose X% experinace" very few care
"Large Durability hit" few coin to ignore that
"Respawn with Gear" So your saying no corpse run
"All general inventory remains on corpse" so we drop a sacrificial corps at the entrance to hold all our stuff, to be rezed, looted on the way back out.
"All priest classes will boast the same exp return for their rezzes" lol normalize all healing classes.. equal but different names. shows us whats in store for the DPS classes as well I suppoe.
I am not amused, sound like there totally selling out to main stream MMO's
Well see I suppose.
Qulash said:aah, those days in EQ1 when you died deep in a the dungeon and reappear naked. The risk of losing everything you worked so hard for lost in an instant! That was a terrifying scenario that made you scared of dying.
But this scenario can turn into a nightmare when you die just before you have to leave the game or the people who could get your corpse had to leave or your internet connection fails before giving consent. You do not want that nightmare scenario. Then the loss is out of control and the damage is really huge.
I really enjoyed the thrill a dungeon crawl with the 'being naked' as death penaly as long the nightmare scenario never happened. I was never afraid of Xp loss, that was maybe a nuisance at best to me.
Pantheon should really make sure that there is a really big need of getting your corpse back. Appearing naked is one of them. But try to avoid the nightmare scenario where everything is really lost due to forces beyond a players control. For example having the gear you lost automatically returned within 12 hours and/or return it with the durability almost 0%.
My thoughts exactly. Things can really go bad, and this will cause a CS incident if you lose stuff because of situations beyond your control. There doesn't have to be an automatic returning of stuff, but there definitely should be a way to "appeal to the gods" to return your items. Maybe pray at an altar in big cities or something like that. Of course this should only work after a long time - IMO even 24h would be too short. More like a few days should have to pass before a player can regain their items this way. EDIT: Maybe this could also only work for items of a certain quality. Meaning you will lose trash items, but would get back your valueable quested items.
But yeah, the main questions for me are:
- De-leveling is out, right (that's how I interpret it at least)?
- If item degradation is in, how many times can you die before your gear becomes un-usable?
- That question asked...does gear turn un-usable or can it be destroyed? Meaning you would have to constantly monitor your equipment status?
- And of course the topic mentioned above: Will corpses disappear after a time? If so, will there be a way to regain items if you can't make it to your corpse in time?
So what's it going to be VR? Is there going to be deleveling with experience-loss accumulation alongside this respawning with 'all your gear and weapons?' Or not? Respawning with all of that was announced. Will there be an appropriate compromise to death of equal value? Or not? Announcing the direction on whether there will be deleveling from accumulation of experience-loss would also be appreciated.
Zorkon said:"All general inventory remains on corpse" so we drop a sacrificial corps at the entrance to hold all our stuff, to be rezed, looted on the way back out.
"All priest classes will boast the same exp return for their rezzes" lol normalize all healing classes.. equal but different names. shows us whats in store for the DPS classes as well I suppoe.
I am not amused, sound like there totally selling out to main stream MMO's
Well see I suppose.
Because no one ever needs their actual inventory. No one needs bags/relics/tools/potions/clickies/whatever else, no one loots any items or money when grouping.
XP Rez is a core function of the healer role. It was not enjoyable in the least to sit around waiting specifically for a cleric in EQ (often paying them) to recover from a death, not to mention being a cleric forced to play on /anon so you don't have tells flooding you all the time. The mere existence of an XP rez if it were single class exclusive (or even just better on one) would mean one healer would be highly prioritized over the others, much the same as if only one tank class had access to taunt. Let's not pretend this is some great slight or homogenization.
Zorkon said:I am not amused, sound like there totally selling out to main stream MMO's
Well see I suppose.
This is my concern now as well. I don't understand their silence on deleveling from exp-loss accumulation with this announcement. I know I won't be upgrading my pledge until there is more clarification on the direction of death penalty and other tenets. I guess we'll just have to see what happens in the coming year(s). If the death penalty is really just what's in OP, then that will be huge let-down imo in light of what was announced.
Alot of you are forgetting about the Atmosphere's.
Remember, Atmosphere acclimation runes will be hard to come by iirc from previous dev streams. Dieing with damaged armor- even damaged acclimated armor- will make getting your stuff and coin a challenge.
It is not yet defined what is inventory or not. This could be just bags, it could also be primary and secondary and ranged items, it could also be all of those and non-vis items like rings and earrings, that would stop the corpse creators to leave a body for bag storage, but they would have to go back for the lore item for the quest if they died inside.
XPloss to level? perfect, that sounds like the same loss of level to me. Unless thats exp debt? I prefer loss of level/exp, or is that too "draconian" as Aradune once put it- like naked corpse runs which never really were an issue- were it not for the new issue of atmospheres.
Also bear in mind, this is a tested mechanic. This is part of PA4 that a VIP spilled a bean (shame! *rings bell*) so they know this works. This is complete and if complete I wonder if it can then be tweaked harsher or made unique in specific areas.
I support the new changes but like a few others have stated I think that the concept of de-leveling probably needs to implement to maintain systematic balance with the new changes.
I will say that I hate the concept of losing access to abilities that have been learned, even though it makes sense. Maybe a system that nerfs the potency of abilities if you de-level from the required training level could be considered (sorta like how the armor system works). However, even if a system like this wasn't considered I would be ok with temporary having restricted access to these abilities until the level was reobtained.
Manouk said:Alot of you are forgetting about the Atmosphere's.
Remember, Atmosphere acclimation runes will be hard to come by iirc from previous dev streams. Dieing with damaged armor- even damaged acclimated armor- will make getting your stuff and coin a challenge.
It is not yet defined what is inventory or not. This could be just bags, it could also be primary and secondary and ranged items, it could also be all of those and non-vis items like rings and earrings, that would stop the corpse creators to leave a body for bag storage, but they would have to go back for the lore item for the quest if they died inside.
XPloss to level? perfect, that sounds like the same loss of level to me. Unless thats exp debt? I prefer loss of level/exp, or is that too "draconian" as Aradune once put it- like naked corpse runs which never really were an issue- were it not for the new issue of atmospheres.
Also bear in mind, this is a tested mechanic. This is part of PA4 that a VIP spilled a bean (shame! *rings bell*) so they know this works. This is complete and if complete I wonder if it can then be tweaked harsher or made unique in specific areas.
Yes, I get that some don't like naked CR. And there will be the climate/atmosphere system where gear is needed - I get that too. That part makes sense. What I don't get is their silence on deleveling from accumulation of exp-loss with what was revealed. I agree that accumulation of exp-loss and deleveling is an appropriate compromise of death penalty to the 'respawning with all your gear' that was announced. I wish they would clarify their stance on this part of it.