Zoltar, Riahuf22 and the rest of the pro-account-tagging folk:
1) You will never convince me that giving up my choice, my freedom (gratuitous July 4th reference for all those celebrating USA Independence Day) to play as I wish is a good thing. I don't need a "safe space" (nice derogatory wording by the way), I'm anything but anti-social, and I willingly support all my friends (in guild and out). I prefer shared loot, but that's not the topic of this thread (stay on target Gold Leader). Putting a tiny window in the corner and ignoring all tells won't cut it either. If everyone knows I am online in any form, they will rightly assume I am available to help.
I just occasionally want some free time to explore, craft, help out newbies, relax after a stressful day at work, whatever. It's a game, not a job.
2) I will never convince you that almost nothing is gained by exposing account tags. You offer offline status as one work around to compensate for taking away my privacy. You want accounts exposed, but wouldn't offline status shield the very people you want to have visible? So back to forcing everyone, always, to wear their account tag in plain sight. In your guild bank heist scenario how will seeing the culprit's account tag on a new alt make your life better (or theirs worse)? If they are enough of a sociopath to be willing to burn their guild I doubt they care about notoriety, or they could just buy a second account to receive the ill-gotten gains and defeat your account tagging altogether. Only VR customer service could ever restore your rare loot & lost plat or perma-ban the thief across all accounts. They won't, unless said reprobate is a repeat offender. I am truly sorry you got burned in the hypothetical, but just report it and move on, there's dragons to slay (so sayeth the Keeper).
My final words on the subject, have to prep for BBQ with family & friends - respect you all, but sincerely agree to disagree.
Kumu said:Zoltar, Riahuf22 and the rest of the pro-account-tagging folk:
1) You will never convince me that giving up my choice, my freedom (gratuitous July 4th reference for all those celebrating USA Independence Day) to play as I wish is a good thing. I don't need a "safe space" (nice derogatory wording by the way), I'm anything but anti-social, and I willingly support all my friends (in guild and out). I prefer shared loot, but that's not the topic of this thread (stay on target Gold Leader). Putting a tiny window in the corner and ignoring all tells won't cut it either. If everyone knows I am online in any form, they will rightly assume I am available to help.
I just occaisonally want some free time to explore, craft, help out newbies, relax after a stressful day at work, whatever. It's a game, not a job.
2) I will never convince you that almost nothing is gained by exposing account tags. You offer offline status as one work around to compensate for taking away my privacy. You want accounts exposed, but wouldn't offline status shield the very people you want to have visible? So back to forcing everyone, always, to wear their account tag in plain sight. In your guild bank heist scenario how will seeing the culprit's account tag on a new alt make your life better (or theirs worse)? If they are enough of a sociopath to be willing to burn their guild I doubt they care about notoriety, or they could just buy a second account to receive the ill-gotten gains and defeat your account tagging altogether. Only VR customer service could ever restore your rare loot & lost plat or perma-ban the thief across all accounts. They won't, unless said reprobate is a repeat offender. I am truly sorry you got burned in the hypothetical, but just report it and move on, there's dragons to slay (so sayeth the Keeper).
My final words on the subject, have to prep for BBQ with family & friends - respect you all, but sincerely agree to disagree.
No it doesn't because if they send you tells, or talk in an area you can hear them that you see who is talking to yku, so it doesn't shield them at all, so again how would it shield them, they have to talk or be near you for them to cause harassment right? Therefore when they are you know it is them.
Riahuf22 said:Yes I understand this but I also said for this system to have an offline function meaning if you make an alt and don't have him join the guild as you said they would never know you were online unless if they ran across your path, and is this matter with what you said even that wouldn't of done anything because you never told them about this certain alt.
I have literally gave you guys a way to basically avoid the system from bothering you completely, as in making a tell box and shove it in a corner, have an offline function, have an offline function to non friends, and everything else I've said but you still want more privacy? This functions write here is privacy you are literally hiding yourself from the world how in the world is that not privacy, next time you want to bind up privacy tell me how is showing up from the world not privacy?
So you could have just said, "I have covered this, add an option for people to turn it off.".
That's great. I approve. What exactly are you arguing about?
Others in this thread choose for participation in the system to be non-optional. Mandated. Forced. Inescapable. Why arent you badgering them about that position?
EDIT:
It's worthwhile to mention that if the system is largely intended to curb bad behavior, but a person can turn it off and choose not to participate, then the purpose for the functionality can be easily avoided by the very people its meant to impact. Another way to describe it would be : Pointless.
Feyshtey said:Riahuf22 said:Yes I understand this but I also said for this system to have an offline function meaning if you make an alt and don't have him join the guild as you said they would never know you were online unless if they ran across your path, and is this matter with what you said even that wouldn't of done anything because you never told them about this certain alt.
I have literally gave you guys a way to basically avoid the system from bothering you completely, as in making a tell box and shove it in a corner, have an offline function, have an offline function to non friends, and everything else I've said but you still want more privacy? This functions write here is privacy you are literally hiding yourself from the world how in the world is that not privacy, next time you want to bind up privacy tell me how is showing up from the world not privacy?
So you could have just said, "I have covered this, add an option for people to turn it off.".
That's great. I approve. What exactly are you arguing about?
Others in this thread choose for participation in the system to be non-optional. Mandated. Forced. Inescapable. Why arent you badgering them about that position?
If they aren't opting for an offline function I would, and I'm sorry I didn't realize people were to be honest, but yes, I want the tag to remain with an option to show offline, offline to non-friends and all of that , you can't really have this type of option without it, but even though you are offline if you go and reach out to people via tells, and such I would.like the tag to appear simply because you know who is talking to you.
Riahuf22 said:If they aren't opting for an offline function I would, and I'm sorry I didn't realize people were to be honest, but yes, I want the tag to remain with an option to show offline, offline to non-friends and all of that , you can't really have this type of option without it, but even though you are offline if you go and reach out to people via tells, and such I would.like the tag to appear simply because you know who is talking to you.
Showing as offline is not the same as not linking accounts. So it's not the same as being able to not participate in the system.
Feyshtey said:HemlockReaper said:I think maybe people are forgetting that Pantheon isn't being tailored for the solo experience, so if you feel the need to “hide” from your guild, are you moonlighting with another guild?
Pantheon is not being tailored to the solo experience. True statement.
It's also not being tailored to the "You get one guild and one set of friends and that's who you're allowed to interact" with experience.
Like 1AD7 was saying, I might really love 95% of the things about my guild. But what if that 5% of what I don't like is a rule that says if any guildmate needs someone to fill a slot in a group and you're not already in a guild group, you have to join that guildmate's group. (Not a made up scenario, btw.) Maybe I just don't want to do a dungeon group tonight. Maybe I really hate the dungeon that guildmate is in for some reason. Maybe the one guy in the guild that just rubs me wrong is that guy.
It's a fairly asnine position to say that because 1 night a month (roughly 5%) I don't desire to be with the same people I group with the other 29 days, that I should go get another guild.
It's equally asinine to suggest that if I want to be social with strangers or friends outside of my guild that I'm being antisocial.
It only sounds asinine because that guild rule is asinine. When you frame it properly and say "I like the guild, but I don't want to follow the guild's rules. Why should I have to find another guild?" then the abusrdity of your position becomes clear.
Feyshtey said:Riahuf22 said:If they aren't opting for an offline function I would, and I'm sorry I didn't realize people were to be honest, but yes, I want the tag to remain with an option to show offline, offline to non-friends and all of that , you can't really have this type of option without it, but even though you are offline if you go and reach out to people via tells, and such I would.like the tag to appear simply because you know who is talking to you.
Showing as offline is not the same as not linking accounts. So it's not the same as being able to not participate in the system.
There wouldn't really be a reason to go offline with the account wasn't linked. Much like there isn't a offline feature in eq because the characters aren't linked. But in other mmos there is because the accounts are linked like on xbox/PS4.
zoltar said:It only sounds asinine because that guild rule is asinine. When you frame it properly and say "I like the guild, but I don't want to follow the guild's rules. Why should I have to find another guild?" then the abusrdity of your position becomes clear.
Or, another way to put it would be that I am happy to follow the guild rules while playing the character that is joined to the guild. But when I'm playing another character that is not in that guild, and is perhaps in another guild entirely with very different rules, I will follow the rules of that second guild.
Your system makes this scenario improbable, and perhaps impossible. It creates a conflict when one desires to be social with a variety of people with a variety personalities and priorities that may not be compatable. Whereas a lack of a system to link accounts provides the freedom of a player to choose who, how and why to interact with literally anyone.
Feyshtey said:zoltar said:It only sounds asinine because that guild rule is asinine. When you frame it properly and say "I like the guild, but I don't want to follow the guild's rules. Why should I have to find another guild?" then the abusrdity of your position becomes clear.
Or, another way to put it would be that I am happy to follow the guild rules while playing the character that is joined to the guild. But when I'm playing another character that is not in that guild, and is perhaps in another guild entirely with very different rules, I will follow the rules of that second guild.
Your system makes this scenario improbable, and perhaps impossible. It creates a conflict when one desires to be social with a variety of people with a variety personalities and priorities that may not be compatable. Whereas a lack of a system to link accounts provides the freedom of a player to choose who, how and why to interact with literally anyone.
"I'm happy to follow the rules, but..." This is just dancing around the facts. You chose to join a guild with a rule against having alts in other guilds. I'm 100% certain that there will be plenty of guilds that do not have this rule. You can either suck it up and follow the guild rules or find another guild with rules that you can live with. This isn't any different than if I don't like my guild's loot distribution system, I don't like the guild's raid schedule, the guild forces me to play a class I don't like, the guild forces me to level a certain crafting profession, and on and on.
I'm sorry, but the simple answer is find another guild if you can't abide by the guild rules. If I'm in a guild that I love, but I hate the fact that they use a loot council instead of DKP ... well I have two choices. Suck it up and deal with the loot council or find another guild. I'm not going to demand that VR give me the option to opt out of shared loot and instead give me my own personal loot.
Riahuf22 said:I'm laughing on the inside when people are saying they don't want linked accounts but use discord to communicate with literally everyone on your computer and it not only tells you that your online bit what game and everything else.
Hey Riahuf22! :) Change your Discord settings. Discord has many privacy features. No one sees what games I'm playing on any of my Discord accounts. I don't think they see anything about me (except what I want to show). You can even bypass the phone requirements on servers that have it enabled. Just thought this was helpful advice for everyone since you mentioned it here.
Tigersin said:Riahuf22 said:I'm laughing on the inside when people are saying they don't want linked accounts but use discord to communicate with literally everyone on your computer and it not only tells you that your online bit what game and everything else.
Hey Riahuf22! :) Change your Discord settings. Discord has many privacy features. No one sees what games I'm playing on any of my Discord accounts. I don't think they see anything about me (except what I want to show). You can even bypass the phone requirements on servers that have it enabled. Just thought this was helpful advice for everyone since you mentioned it here.
Thank you for proving my point, Tigersin I was waiting for someone to fall into this web, listen to Tigersin you can change your privacy settings so no one knows you are playing the game, or the character you are pkaying, just want to say thank you again. Tigersin
Riahuf22 said:Thank you for proving my point, Tigersin I was waiting for someone to fall into this web, listen to Tigersin you can change your privacy settings so no one knows you are playing the game, or the character you are pkaying, just want to say thank you again. Tigersin
Sounds creepy but what does it mean?
Tigersin said:Riahuf22 said:Thank you for proving my point, Tigersin I was waiting for someone to fall into this web, listen to Tigersin you can change your privacy settings so no one knows you are playing the game, or the character you are pkaying, just want to say thank you again. Tigersin
Sounds creepy but what does it mean?
It means if they have you account linked you can still turn your account offline, or change other privacy settings to fit the way you want it too so even programs like discord that can literally show you everything you can opt to have it show nothing just like every other game/program that has the same option.
zoltar said:Feyshtey said:zoltar said:It only sounds asinine because that guild rule is asinine. When you frame it properly and say "I like the guild, but I don't want to follow the guild's rules. Why should I have to find another guild?" then the abusrdity of your position becomes clear.
Or, another way to put it would be that I am happy to follow the guild rules while playing the character that is joined to the guild. But when I'm playing another character that is not in that guild, and is perhaps in another guild entirely with very different rules, I will follow the rules of that second guild.
Your system makes this scenario improbable, and perhaps impossible. It creates a conflict when one desires to be social with a variety of people with a variety personalities and priorities that may not be compatable. Whereas a lack of a system to link accounts provides the freedom of a player to choose who, how and why to interact with literally anyone.
"I'm happy to follow the rules, but..." This is just dancing around the facts. You chose to join a guild with a rule against having alts in other guilds. I'm 100% certain that there will be plenty of guilds that do not have this rule. You can either suck it up and follow the guild rules or find another guild with rules that you can live with. This isn't any different than if I don't like my guild's loot distribution system, I don't like the guild's raid schedule, the guild forces me to play a class I don't like, the guild forces me to level a certain crafting profession, and on and on.
I'm sorry, but the simple answer is find another guild if you can't abide by the guild rules. If I'm in a guild that I love, but I hate the fact that they use a loot council instead of DKP ... well I have two choices. Suck it up and deal with the loot council or find another guild. I'm not going to demand that VR give me the option to opt out of shared loot and instead give me my own personal loot.
Now you're just making crap up to justify your position.
I didn't say "I'm happy to follow the rules, but...". I didn't say that either of the guilds in the scenario had a rule that you couldn't have alts in other guilds.
And the simplest answer is... to allow players to have the ability to have an alter-ego in the game that isnt linked to their other characters. Your answer is to build a system to broadcast information to anyone that chooses to view it under the assumption of guilt of every player, and in the end for a fairly minor gain, if any at all. Which sounds more simple?
Riahuf22 said:Tigersin said:Riahuf22 said:Thank you for proving my point, Tigersin I was waiting for someone to fall into this web, listen to Tigersin you can change your privacy settings so no one knows you are playing the game, or the character you are pkaying, just want to say thank you again. Tigersin
Sounds creepy but what does it mean?
It means if they have you account linked you can still turn your account offline, or change other privacy settings to fit the way you want it too so even programs like discord that can literally show you everything you can opt to have it show nothing just like every other game/program that has the same option.
So what purpose does it serve? What good does it bring?
If you can turn it off then you can still be a complete ass on one character and not show a link to your other characters. That's really the only valid reason I've seen given for a system like this. If you just want your friends to be able to know when you're online, tell them who you are on other characters.
Feyshtey said:Riahuf22 said:Tigersin said:Riahuf22 said:Thank you for proving my point, Tigersin I was waiting for someone to fall into this web, listen to Tigersin you can change your privacy settings so no one knows you are playing the game, or the character you are pkaying, just want to say thank you again. Tigersin
Sounds creepy but what does it mean?
It means if they have you account linked you can still turn your account offline, or change other privacy settings to fit the way you want it too so even programs like discord that can literally show you everything you can opt to have it show nothing just like every other game/program that has the same option.
So what purpose does it serve? What good does it bring?
If you can turn it off then you can still be a complete ass on one character and not show a link to your other characters. That's really the only valid reason I've seen given for a system like this. If you just want your friends to be able to know when you're online, tell them who you are on other characters.
Do you even read my post? I said you can turn it offline so people can't hound you when you get on and the post above said you can be offline but if you send tells, or other forms of coomunication your tag will still show up, so you know who you are talking to, not just opt out of the whole thing just the part most people where are complaining about, which its solved by the offline function, next time read please.
HemlockReaper said:I Think its important to have systems in place that promote building the community, and not the individual. The ability to join multiple guilds per account, Hide alts, Go offline, serves the individual, and encourages a “What can a guild do for me” mentality.
I agree with most of this, but I also understand that people just want to play another character and not be bothered by other people in general, which is why I think the offline function serves a good compromise for them, I'm even sure myself and possibly even you would use it eventually just to use it. And like I said showing up offline at least the why I imagine it is if let's say @soandso says something in chat and you know it is someone in your guild and he's in another guild than you know he's in 2 guilds now for some people they might not like that and I understand, as for others not so much and I can understand that, but the offline feature itself doesn't completely protect you from it either, it just protects you from being bothered when you don't want to bothered.
This is just living in fear. Feeling the need to reveal others so they can't trick you. This is a game that is managed to accomdate a fearful community. You can 'WRONG!' it all day but when it's all said and done, you are afraid I might do something bad to you on my alt. Pick the word that inspires community building: TRUST or MISTRUST.
If you think TRUST inspires community than you're fine with my alts. If you think MISTRUST inspires community than you'd like to know who my alts are.
Tigersin said:This is just living in fear. Feeling the need to reveal others so they can't trick you. This is a game that is managed to accomdate a fearful community. You can 'WRONG!' it all day but when it's all said and done, you are afraid I might do something bad to you on my alt. Pick the word that inspires community building: TRUST or MISTRUST.
If you think TRUST inspires community than you're fine with my alts. If you think MISTRUST inspires community than you'd like to know who my alts are.
Why would I trust someone I've never met? When you can answer this I'll respond to the rest of this post.
Riahuf22 said:Why would I trust someone I've never met? When you can answer this I'll respond to the rest of this post.
Oh but there's no answer for that question. I'm only pointing out the difference between us. I'll trust all of you to play your alts and I'm not worried about who you are. <3
Feyshtey said:Or, another way to put it would be that I am happy to follow the guild rules while playing the character that is joined to the guild. But when I'm playing another character that is not in that guild, and is perhaps in another guild entirely with very different rules, I will follow the rules of that second guild.
Your system makes this scenario improbable, and perhaps impossible. It creates a conflict when one desires to be social with a variety of people with a variety personalities and priorities that may not be compatable. Whereas a lack of a system to link accounts provides the freedom of a player to choose who, how and why to interact with literally anyone.
And this is exactly why many guild leaders would want nothing to do with the kind of forced system that has been described here. The absence of the system creates (preserves?) a reasonable degree of flexibility where players operate off of trust and respect rather than monitoring. Once the system is implemented and forced, it creates a potential source of tension and conflict that otherwise would not exist. If someone wants to play on another character and have some "me time" then I would prefer that they can do that undisturbed. I don't want players X/Y/Z messaging me and letting me know that so-and-so is on an alt when they could be helping a guildmate with something that is "more important." Having to micromanage players in this way would lead to unnecessary drama (and rules) that could have been easily avoided if we were afforded the luxury to enjoy the previously discussed measures of trust/respect that appear to be eroding in this digital-rush era.
oneADseven said:Feyshtey said:Or, another way to put it would be that I am happy to follow the guild rules while playing the character that is joined to the guild. But when I'm playing another character that is not in that guild, and is perhaps in another guild entirely with very different rules, I will follow the rules of that second guild.
Your system makes this scenario improbable, and perhaps impossible. It creates a conflict when one desires to be social with a variety of people with a variety personalities and priorities that may not be compatable. Whereas a lack of a system to link accounts provides the freedom of a player to choose who, how and why to interact with literally anyone.
And this is exactly why many guild leaders would want nothing to do with the kind of forced system that has been described here. The absence of the system creates a reasonable degree of flexibility where players operate off of trust and respect rather than monitoring. Once the system is implemented and forced, it creates a potential source of tension and conflict that otherwise would not exist. If someone wants to play on another character and have some "me time" then I would prefer that they can do that undisturbed. I don't want players X/Y/Z messaging me and letting me know that so-and-so is on an alt when they could be helping a guildmate with something that is "more important." Having to micromanage players in this way would lead to unnecessary drama (and rules) that could have been easily avoided if we were afforded the luxury to enjoy the previously discussed measures of trust/respect that appear to be eroding in this digital-rush era.
If this is really what your worried about than you would have cappy guildmates and rhat isn't the systems fault . Plus I love how people keep ignoring the offline e option where they wouldn't even know you were on in the first place which literally fixes everything you said in your above statement.
Plus if your guild decided to micromanage simply because of a system like this than they probably need to reevaluate themselves and see what it is that they are doing is wrong in the first place.