Riahuf22 said: It completely countered your entire argument of if I know who you are you couldn't rp another character, which I proved wrong, who cares the ones that aren't going to RP with you are going to be the non RPing players anyway, which neglects the entire argument because once you know they aren't RPING you won't RP with them. So again the @ system doesn't hurt RP. And again if your so worried about talking in chat and a friend or guild member seeing you talking and wanting you to get on your main and he doesn't want to understand that you don't want to than that's isn't your problem but his, and people need to realize that. And if he is trying to guilt trip you into playing your main than you need to have him understand that it simply isn't going to happen and you are going to play the game the way you want to play it for that day and he needs grow up
Nope, you've not countered anything but balantly tried to support your counter argumentation with a subpar RP game which is completely irrelevant to any true roleplay setting.
You've basically only hinted you're playing GTA 5, which is cool, but not really pushing the discussion to any usefullness. As long you're not a roleplayer yourself, it's quite hard to understand what impact can knowing who is playing a character have one the neutrality of play, so I wouldn't try to do it if I was you.
@ system hurts roleplay in GW2, I play and played it, so I do know.
@ system hurts roleplay in ESO, I played it, so I do know.
@ system either hurt GTA 5 and you don't even know it (maybe because you don't roleplay ?), or it doesn't because it's not really roleplay at all.
So, thank you for your imput, but honestly an argument is not adding some fictive player from a game no one cares about to make it a generality.
oneADseven said:That kind of rule is generally only (loosely) enforced in highly competitive guilds, and there is absolutely an important reason for that. I agree with you. At the same time, we have already accepted that there is nothing we can do to stop players from doing it. It's time to move on from the idea that this system actually solves the issues you keep bloviating about. We have discussed this very important realization multiple times now and we have come to an impasse. You think it's okay to turn a blind eye to those who are willing/able to fund multiple accounts (you have no choice really) because you find some degree of solace in knowing that they have to pay money in order to do it.
This is clearly a false premise. An effective deterrent doesn't have to be 100% effective to be useful.
I think I've just about said everything I need to say on this topic, so I'll say this and bow out: Funadmentally this is an issue of anonymity vs accountability. We all agree that there must be account-level anonymity (it's the law in many places in fact). We can go 'round and 'round all day with the pro's and cons of extending anonymity to characters at the expense of accountability and vice versa. I think I've made a pretty good argument that the supposed cons of this extra accountability are reasonable and ordinary elements of player choice and consequence. Obviously some people disagree, so it is what it is.
Last thing... I've been playing MMO's for 20 years and I have never ONCE felt the need to make an anonymous alt to hide from my guild mates. I'm ususally one to help out when called upon, but in instances where I've been unable to or decided not to alter my person plans, I can't ever recall being berated, insulted, or punished by the people I chose to guild with. The people that talk about this like it's a major issue for them... honestly I have to question either their judgment or their character. Find a guild that respects you as an individual and be willing to put the needs of the guild ahead of your personal needs (to a reasonable degree). You do those two things, and I guarantee you won't need to hide from your own damn guild lol.
MauvaisOeil said:Riahuf22 said: It completely countered your entire argument of if I know who you are you couldn't rp another character, which I proved wrong, who cares the ones that aren't going to RP with you are going to be the non RPing players anyway, which neglects the entire argument because once you know they aren't RPING you won't RP with them. So again the @ system doesn't hurt RP. And again if your so worried about talking in chat and a friend or guild member seeing you talking and wanting you to get on your main and he doesn't want to understand that you don't want to than that's isn't your problem but his, and people need to realize that. And if he is trying to guilt trip you into playing your main than you need to have him understand that it simply isn't going to happen and you are going to play the game the way you want to play it for that day and he needs grow up
Nope, you've not countered anything but balantly tried to support your counter argumentation with a subpar RP game which is completely irrelevant to any true roleplay setting.
You've basically only hinted you're playing GTA 5, which is cool, but not really pushing the discussion to any usefullness. As long you're not a roleplayer yourself, it's quite hard to understand what impact can knowing who is playing a character have one the neutrality of play, so I wouldn't try to do it if I was you.
@ system hurts roleplay in GW2, I play and played it, so I do know.
@ system hurts roleplay in ESO, I played it, so I do know.
@ system either hurt GTA 5 and you don't even know it (maybe because you don't roleplay ?), or it doesn't because it's not really roleplay at all.
So, thank you for your imput, but honestly an argument is not adding some fictive player from a game no one cares about to make it a generality.
Clearly you haven't seen people play on No pixel than where of you don't roleplay you literally get kicked from their server and have to follow strict guidelines to stay there, like be a streamer or a very good roleplayer.Yes I do know what I'm talking about and no the @ doesn't hurt RP. The streamers literally have an @on their stream so you can watch them and they play multiple characters and people fall right in line and say yup now he's going to play this persona now.
And one let's be honest people don't even roleplay on ESO, just like I got a good feeling a lot of people aren't going to roleplay on pantheon, will they if their a RP server yeah sure but if you don't make a server that had rules that you have to RP on it that like 90% of the population probably wouldnt, so again for the RP sake have them have their own server with that guideline in place so they know they are playing with RPERS and than the @ wouldn't matter because you have to RP with the character and not the player anyway.
zoltar said:The people that talk about this like it's a major issue for them... honestly I have to question either their judgment or their character. Find a guild that respects you as an individual and be willing to put the needs of the guild ahead of your personal needs (to a reasonable degree). You do those two things, and I guarantee you won't need to hide from your own damn guild lol.
The irony in this message is through the roof. Please consider the idea that there are plenty of guilds who want to respect players as individuals (this includes their desire for occasional anonymity!) -- it has never been an issue. When it comes to deciding what the "reasonable guild needs are" -- this is easily accomplished without having to track and monitor players through all of their characters. If there is an attendance requirement ... do they meet it? Are they helpful to people when they are logged in? This is the element that you seem to be missing. I have enjoyed the company of many extremely amazing individuals over the years ... people who spent countless hours going out of their way to help the guild in as many ways as possible. I have zero interest in this new layer of accountability. It isn't necessary. It's also a false premise to suggest that players are hiding from their entire guild. Most folks were happy to shoot me a message and let me know that they were on an alt, making it clear that if I needed them for something, they would become available. That's why it's important to let players control their privacy. There are too many moving pieces and parts to try and funnel everybody into the same idealistic sense of how they should think/act/rationalize.
I mostly lean towards not having an account wide handle. I like having my privacy and the ability to log onto an alt for a bit of an escape. Account wide handles don't add that much to the game, it is mostly a convenience in my opinion. Either way it won't be a deal breaker for me.
Yes I do know what I'm talking about and no the @ doesn't hurt RP. The streamers literally have an @on their stream so you can watch them and they play multiple characters and people fall right in line and say yup now he's going to play this persona now.
So you're basically claiming that because he is a streamer and everyone knows who he is, people still roleplay with him because :
-He is a streamer and he is famous
And now you make it a truth to argue for every game out there, every community, as a proof that "roleplay is not hurt by @ tags", in a biaised situation.
The fact is not "because everyone knows who he is no one will roleplay with him", that's not the problem. @ tags won't stop friendly players to play with others, but it removes the mysticism of roleplaying with some unknown, who you can't relate and will not act in a prectible way. It's even more true when players hold grudges against other players due to a roleplay they didn't like (removing every "crappy roleplay facts", as an example : A roleplay a player didn't like because their character didn't feel as strong as they wanted and maybe even got criticized or verbally hurt by the other character), the @ allows them to specificially avoid or act unnaturally with the player because they HOLD grudge for something they shouldn't.
(Ps : I am not making it part of any argumentation, but I would appreciate more punctuation, especially full stops and line breaks. It's kind of hard to read your answers are they seem like an endless single sentence.)
Riahuf22 said: It completely countered your entire argument of if I know who you are you couldn't rp another character, which I proved wrong, who cares the ones that aren't going to RP with you are going to be the non RPing players anyway, which neglects the entire argument because once you know they aren't RPING you won't RP with them. So again the @ system doesn't hurt RP. And again if your so worried about talking in chat and a friend or guild member seeing you talking and wanting you to get on your main and he doesn't want to understand that you don't want to than that's isn't your problem but his, and people need to realize that. And if he is trying to guilt trip you into playing your main than you need to have him understand that it simply isn't going to happen and you are going to play the game the way you want to play it for that day and he needs grow up
Why do I need to do that? Why does he need to do that? Why are you telling everyone what they need to do? Relax. Want to go back to sharing opinions? <3
Tigersin said:Riahuf22 said: It completely countered your entire argument of if I know who you are you couldn't rp another character, which I proved wrong, who cares the ones that aren't going to RP with you are going to be the non RPing players anyway, which neglects the entire argument because once you know they aren't RPING you won't RP with them. So again the @ system doesn't hurt RP. And again if your so worried about talking in chat and a friend or guild member seeing you talking and wanting you to get on your main and he doesn't want to understand that you don't want to than that's isn't your problem but his, and people need to realize that. And if he is trying to guilt trip you into playing your main than you need to have him understand that it simply isn't going to happen and you are going to play the game the way you want to play it for that day and he needs grow upWhy do I need to do that? Why does he need to do that? Why are you telling everyone what they need to do? Relax. Want to go back to sharing opinions? <3
don't tell me to relax! you relax! i'm going to drink some ca phe sua da. you do whatever you want to do beside tell me what to do!
Tigersin said:Riahuf22 said: It completely countered your entire argument of if I know who you are you couldn't rp another character, which I proved wrong, who cares the ones that aren't going to RP with you are going to be the non RPing players anyway, which neglects the entire argument because once you know they aren't RPING you won't RP with them. So again the @ system doesn't hurt RP. And again if your so worried about talking in chat and a friend or guild member seeing you talking and wanting you to get on your main and he doesn't want to understand that you don't want to than that's isn't your problem but his, and people need to realize that. And if he is trying to guilt trip you into playing your main than you need to have him understand that it simply isn't going to happen and you are going to play the game the way you want to play it for that day and he needs grow upWhy do I need to do that? Why does he need to do that? Why are you telling everyone what they need to do? Relax. Want to go back to sharing opinions? <3
Lol let's just take away everything than even /block, and /ignore sense it seems like if someone is right beside me I should be able to hear him as well, that seems fair as well, that way when I find people that don't want to hear my talk I'll just follow them wherever they go and wish they knew who i was.
Riahuf22 said:Tigersin said:Riahuf22 said: It completely countered your entire argument of if I know who you are you couldn't rp another character, which I proved wrong, who cares the ones that aren't going to RP with you are going to be the non RPing players anyway, which neglects the entire argument because once you know they aren't RPING you won't RP with them. So again the @ system doesn't hurt RP. And again if your so worried about talking in chat and a friend or guild member seeing you talking and wanting you to get on your main and he doesn't want to understand that you don't want to than that's isn't your problem but his, and people need to realize that. And if he is trying to guilt trip you into playing your main than you need to have him understand that it simply isn't going to happen and you are going to play the game the way you want to play it for that day and he needs grow upWhy do I need to do that? Why does he need to do that? Why are you telling everyone what they need to do? Relax. Want to go back to sharing opinions? <3
Lol let's just take away everything than even /block, and /ignore sense it seems like if someone is right beside me I should be able to hear him as well, that seems fair as well, that way when I find people that don't want to hear my talk I'll just follow them wherever they go and wish they knew who i was.
there's a lot of ideas here, but it goes both ways.
let's just say we get into a heated debate and you report me and get me banned because i monopolized a rotation.
i'm going to be a salty boy and will do everything i can to roast you like a salt slathered steak. i have the account name that i need.
i've played on each type of server and i don't play on pvp servers because i'm some bloodthirsty savage. i play so that i can contest situations with my own means. why spend the time going through menus and forms when i can slay the dog where he stands? it's just more satisfying to see a dead body there.
stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:Tigersin said:Riahuf22 said: It completely countered your entire argument of if I know who you are you couldn't rp another character, which I proved wrong, who cares the ones that aren't going to RP with you are going to be the non RPing players anyway, which neglects the entire argument because once you know they aren't RPING you won't RP with them. So again the @ system doesn't hurt RP. And again if your so worried about talking in chat and a friend or guild member seeing you talking and wanting you to get on your main and he doesn't want to understand that you don't want to than that's isn't your problem but his, and people need to realize that. And if he is trying to guilt trip you into playing your main than you need to have him understand that it simply isn't going to happen and you are going to play the game the way you want to play it for that day and he needs grow upWhy do I need to do that? Why does he need to do that? Why are you telling everyone what they need to do? Relax. Want to go back to sharing opinions? <3
Lol let's just take away everything than even /block, and /ignore sense it seems like if someone is right beside me I should be able to hear him as well, that seems fair as well, that way when I find people that don't want to hear my talk I'll just follow them wherever they go and wish they knew who i was.
there's a lot of ideas here, but it goes both ways.let's just say we get into a heated debate and you report me and get me banned because i monopolized a rotation.
i'm going to be a salty boy and will do everything i can to roast you like a salt slathered steak. i have the account name that i need.
i've played on each type of server and i don't play on pvp servers because i'm some bloodthirsty savage. i play so that i can contest situations with my own means. why spend the time going through menus and forms when i can slay the dog where he stands? it's just more satisfying to see a dead body there.
Gl with that, lol not everybody who plays on a PVE server is bad at pvp, just means they don't want to pvp all the time lol.
Riahuf22 said:Tigersin said:Riahuf22 said: It completely countered your entire argument of if I know who you are you couldn't rp another character, which I proved wrong, who cares the ones that aren't going to RP with you are going to be the non RPing players anyway, which neglects the entire argument because once you know they aren't RPING you won't RP with them. So again the @ system doesn't hurt RP. And again if your so worried about talking in chat and a friend or guild member seeing you talking and wanting you to get on your main and he doesn't want to understand that you don't want to than that's isn't your problem but his, and people need to realize that. And if he is trying to guilt trip you into playing your main than you need to have him understand that it simply isn't going to happen and you are going to play the game the way you want to play it for that day and he needs grow upWhy do I need to do that? Why does he need to do that? Why are you telling everyone what they need to do? Relax. Want to go back to sharing opinions? <3
Lol let's just take away everything than even /block, and /ignore sense it seems like if someone is right beside me I should be able to hear him as well, that seems fair as well, that way when I find people that don't want to hear my talk I'll just follow them wherever they go and wish they knew who i was.
You should probably bookmark and review https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/. Heck, make it your home page, or take a screen shot and make it the background of whatever device you're using.
yes some of the best pvpers i know now play on pve servers because irl has them on a tighter time table and i can respect that. i'm pointing out there are pros and cons to each system. i'd look at an idea and think, if i was a bad actor, how can i exploit this system?
the pvp community has always had a bad rap in the general sphere of mmos. i just want to enlighten pvers that we operate in a different manner. a pantheon lore buff could say it's like comparing human society to that of ogres and dark myr.
Tigersin said:Riahuf22 said: It completely countered your entire argument of if I know who you are you couldn't rp another character, which I proved wrong, who cares the ones that aren't going to RP with you are going to be the non RPing players anyway, which neglects the entire argument because once you know they aren't RPING you won't RP with them. So again the @ system doesn't hurt RP. And again if your so worried about talking in chat and a friend or guild member seeing you talking and wanting you to get on your main and he doesn't want to understand that you don't want to than that's isn't your problem but his, and people need to realize that. And if he is trying to guilt trip you into playing your main than you need to have him understand that it simply isn't going to happen and you are going to play the game the way you want to play it for that day and he needs grow upWhy do I need to do that? Why does he need to do that? Why are you telling everyone what they need to do? Relax. Want to go back to sharing opinions? <3
Because that's what he does.
Keno Monster said:Riahuf22 said:Tigersin said:Riahuf22 said: It completely countered your entire argument of if I know who you are you couldn't rp another character, which I proved wrong, who cares the ones that aren't going to RP with you are going to be the non RPing players anyway, which neglects the entire argument because once you know they aren't RPING you won't RP with them. So again the @ system doesn't hurt RP. And again if your so worried about talking in chat and a friend or guild member seeing you talking and wanting you to get on your main and he doesn't want to understand that you don't want to than that's isn't your problem but his, and people need to realize that. And if he is trying to guilt trip you into playing your main than you need to have him understand that it simply isn't going to happen and you are going to play the game the way you want to play it for that day and he needs grow upWhy do I need to do that? Why does he need to do that? Why are you telling everyone what they need to do? Relax. Want to go back to sharing opinions? <3
Lol let's just take away everything than even /block, and /ignore sense it seems like if someone is right beside me I should be able to hear him as well, that seems fair as well, that way when I find people that don't want to hear my talk I'll just follow them wherever they go and wish they knew who i was.
You should probably bookmark and review https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/. Heck, make it your home page, or take a screen shot and make it the background of whatever device you're using.
I was obviously joking Keno master it's okay we get it that website doesn't cover that for you.
Keno Monster said:Tigersin said:Riahuf22 said: It completely countered your entire argument of if I know who you are you couldn't rp another character, which I proved wrong, who cares the ones that aren't going to RP with you are going to be the non RPing players anyway, which neglects the entire argument because once you know they aren't RPING you won't RP with them. So again the @ system doesn't hurt RP. And again if your so worried about talking in chat and a friend or guild member seeing you talking and wanting you to get on your main and he doesn't want to understand that you don't want to than that's isn't your problem but his, and people need to realize that. And if he is trying to guilt trip you into playing your main than you need to have him understand that it simply isn't going to happen and you are going to play the game the way you want to play it for that day and he needs grow upWhy do I need to do that? Why does he need to do that? Why are you telling everyone what they need to do? Relax. Want to go back to sharing opinions? <3
Because that's what he does.
Lol not not even close to what I do, for one I don't have friends I pretend to hide from by making an alt, in fact I would probably tell them my alts, just like I don't care if someone I don't like figures out its my alt, just like I don't care if there would be an @ beside my name simply because it doesn't really mean much unless if you a bad player, and if people use it badly you can simply ignore and report if need me or be stellar and kill them, whatever works.
I wanted to comment on the whole "hiding from your guild" thing.
I too have been playing MMOs for 20 years, and I've been a guild leader for most of that time as well. The truth that I've experienced is that no matter how good and respectful the guild is, there will be times when people want to simply withdraw from things temporarily. I have had anonymous alts myself, for those times when I just needed to step back from my guildies and take a breath before plunging back in to the sea of social responsibility, for times when I wanted to try out something new and didn't want everyone from my guild inviting themselves along, and for times when I wanted to observe my own guild from an outsider's perspective, and try to get a sense of what people *really* thought of us or how my members really behaved when they didn't think I was around watching.
I don't consider any of these to be bad things. While there are people that really thrive on constant social activity, there are plenty of people who need time to themselves in order to recharge. If creating an anonymous alt allows them to do that, I don't see a problem with it. In fact I usually encourage my officers to have a safe alt where they can take a break, especially if they seem like they might be starting to burn out a bit.
In games that have the option, I've used /anon to hide everything except the fact that I was online, usually because I wanted to be left alone in the world apart from chat, where I could engage on my own terms. Likewise, in EQ, I used /role to hide my class simply to avoid constant group requests based on that class. Again, I don't really see a problem with these options.
Obviously, there are lots of edge cases that could come up - is that person using an alt to grief? Are they living a double life so they can raid with some other guild too? Are they secretly running a rival guild and their character in yours is a spy? But let's be real about it. These things are rare, and even when they do happen they get dealt with on a case by case basis. And maybe this is hubris on my part, but a well-run guild with a good recruitment process really shouldn't run into this very often.
Anyway my point here is that I don't see guild politics as a reason to prevent people from having anonymous alts if that's their wish. Sure it can be abused, but there are too many legitimate reasons someone might want to keep their alts separate to take that ability away from them.
Yes I understand this neph but I have come with compromises to this system with:
Having an offline function, or offline to non-friends
Be able to show up anonymous so even if they know your online they can't track you down easily
I have said all of these this constantly, shot to be honest I'll even let them have an LFG chat channel or something that has strong guidelines to be for LFG only that doesn't show the @ so they won't feel stuck soloing with an alt
But I do believe the @soandso can serve a good thing in our community. But it seems that I'm one of the few.
Riahuf22 said:Yes I understand this neph but I have come with compromises to this system with:
Having an offline function, or offline to non-friends
Be able to show up anonymous so even if they know your online they can't track you down easily
I have said all of these this constantly, shot to be honest I'll even let them have an LFG chat channel or something that has strong guidelines to be for LFG only that doesn't show the @ so they won't feel stuck soloing with an alt
But I do believe the @soandso can serve a good thing in our community. But it seems that I'm one of the few.
I can understand and respect your position Riahuf. I've played games where there was an @account identifier, and I personally never had problems with it, whether that was roleplaying or whatever else.
But, I think we also need to recognize that our experiences might be different from those of others, and that their experiences are just as valid as our own. So when someone says that account identifiers harmed their ability to roleplay in other games, I believe them. I mean, why would they lie about something like that?
In the end, there is no perfect system. Regardless of what path VR chooses to go, there will be some tradeoffs involved. I think the best thing we as supporters can do is try to look for compromise solutions that work for as many people as possible - even if that means not doing everything we personally would like to see.