Riahuf22 said:Plus if your guild decided to micromanage simply because of a system like this than they probably need to reevaluate themselves and see what it is that they are doing is wrong in the first place.
Without the system, this sort of micro-managing wouldn't even be up for discussion. It's not like guild leaders get to control how people think/behave. The implementation of the system is what facilitates the kind of conflict that most people would want to avoid. It's unfair to suggest that a guild would be able to "decide" to micromanage "because" of the system. They are being forced to either deal with these new situations or ignore them (both bad) and that's what makes the system so undesirable.
oneADseven said:Riahuf22 said:Plus if your guild decided to micromanage simply because of a system like this than they probably need to reevaluate themselves and see what it is that they are doing is wrong in the first place.
Without the system, this sort of micro-managing wouldn't even be up for discussion. It's not like guild leaders get to control how people think/behave. The implementation of the system is what facilitates the kind of conflict that most people would want to avoid. It's unfair to suggest that a guild would be able to "decide" to micromanage "because" of the system. They are being forced to either deal with these new situations or ignore them (both bad) and that's what makes the system so undesirable.
But they can't because if you show offline they wouldn't even know you were there to begin with, like I said like a dozen times of this post, so how about you actually read everything in mt post and not just the part you don't like,
If your showing offline, I'll break it down for you, that's means you are playing your game the way you want to play it and no one even knows you are online. Where anywhere do you not see privacy in this sentence? You won't because that is literally the definition of privacy in an mmorpg, you can not like the tagging system but showing offline is basically almost the same as no system at all, you just wouldn't be able to say things in chat, and if you really wanted to be discreet the way you are saying you wouldn't because that in itself could and would eventually get people to know that is your alt anyway, so with or without the system you would avoid all means of people possibly getting to send you tells, and like I said even if you get tells doesn't means you can't make a tell box and shove it in a corner. Again all solved at the player level.
And another thing if your guild leader even feels like he can micromanage your gameplay, tell him to F himself, and than find another guild because at that moment you know there are better out there.
But they can't because if you show offline they wouldn't even know you were there to begin with, like I said like a dozen times of this post, so how about you actually read everything in mt post and not just the part you don't like,
If your showing offline, I'll break it down for you, that's means you are playing your game the way you want to play it and no one even knows you are online. Where anywhere do you not see privacy in this sentence? You won't because that is literally the definition of privacy in an mmorpg, you can not like the tagging system but showing offline is basically almost the same as no system at all, you just wouldn't be able to say things in chat, and if you really wanted to be discreet the way you are saying you wouldn't because that in itself could and would eventually get people to know that is your alt anyway, so with or without the system you would avoid all means of people possibly getting to send you tells, and like I said even if you get tells doesn't means you can't make a tell box and shove it in a corner. Again all solved at the player level.
the offline system would not work in most cases because the pantheon is a group game when you interpret another character you may want to not receive attention for the class actions or guild of your main
but normally if you are going to want to interact with the rest of the world in function to the class that you are playing the actions that this realizes or the guild that is that alt
I do not have xbox but second most games are 1 player and many of the multiplayer that you do not need to talk to anyone and that's why the offline mode works that most modern mmorpg daemons do not need to talk to anyone and I think that is a point for which Pantheon is here
On the other hand you only focus on your friends and guildmates but at least for me the worrying thing would be the rest of the server and especially weird strangers that for some reason that I can not understand obsessively want to know what my alters are
You find people LFG'S and send them tells when you know they don't know your characters main? Look finding grp won't be a problem, and again if your biggest reasoning behind it is Guild stuff, and friends bothering you than tell them simply not today and have you have your peace, if they can't accept that than at that moment they are showing they are showing more interest into you main character than you as a guild member or a friend and possibly both, so again the system here isn't the problem but the people you are hanging around with.
Another thing is I am not only focusing on guilds and friend the recent post itself were focusing on those topics of the system so I in hand did as well but touched on the other parts in previous messages, so if you want to read them you can and than see what I had to say back than.
And before it gets blown out of proportion when I say they are showing more interest into your main than you, I don't mean they are bad friends or that they will from the time going forward be like that, literally just meant in that moment, as in that moment only.
stellarmind said:Darch said:Watemper said:Difficult content/leveling will only make griefing that much sweeter for a griefer... with that said, I'm ok with either option of notoriety or exclusivity of all characters' reputations.
As examples of content not mattering to griefers; In EQ, I've seen a lvl 60 epic monk with full planar gear kill themselves repeatedly until they were around low 20s just to grief people and be able to solo guards so player's couldn't even run trains to the guards. Single handedly shutting down low level areas..
I've also seen entire guilds (the monk above was from the guild in mind) dedicated to preventing any other player access to areas.
Both of these example were even on a PvP server where "policing the community" was actually an option.
I can see the benefits and heartache caused from either option of account identification but I would say that having the option to toggle sharing an identifying commonality between characters on the same account would allow those that want to use the feature the ability to do so, and those that don't the freedom to do so if they please... if people choose to not show their shared info, it would give other players reason to suspect something is up if the choice is up to the player.
oh that is so sweet nom nom nom. thank you for that story that explains how pvp works. we are barbaric savages where if you have the skill and the means to monopolize it, so be it. you agree to this when you play on a pvp server. i see nothing wrong with it.
i don't see how this supports your disposition when you'll be on a pve server though.
If u would post the entire quote instead of deleting content you would answer your own question... Troll. Editing people's posts when you "quote" them in an attempt (failed attempt) to make a point is weak...
The "disposition" that was being taken was in defense of PvP servers being better at policing their community than PvE servers, and that simply increasing the difficulty of leveling will do very little if anything at all to hinder people from griefing.
add: Because the original quote was in direct response to Watemper's comment about simply having difficult content preventing people from griefing with a hidden identity/second character due to the time it would take to level.
oneADseven said:Feyshtey said:Or, another way to put it would be that I am happy to follow the guild rules while playing the character that is joined to the guild. But when I'm playing another character that is not in that guild, and is perhaps in another guild entirely with very different rules, I will follow the rules of that second guild.
Your system makes this scenario improbable, and perhaps impossible. It creates a conflict when one desires to be social with a variety of people with a variety personalities and priorities that may not be compatable. Whereas a lack of a system to link accounts provides the freedom of a player to choose who, how and why to interact with literally anyone.
And this is exactly why many guild leaders would want nothing to do with the kind of forced system that has been described here. The absence of the system creates (preserves?) a reasonable degree of flexibility where players operate off of trust and respect rather than monitoring. Once the system is implemented and forced, it creates a potential source of tension and conflict that otherwise would not exist. If someone wants to play on another character and have some "me time" then I would prefer that they can do that undisturbed. I don't want players X/Y/Z messaging me and letting me know that so-and-so is on an alt when they could be helping a guildmate with something that is "more important." Having to micromanage players in this way would lead to unnecessary drama (and rules) that could have been easily avoided if we were afforded the luxury to enjoy the previously discussed measures of trust/respect that appear to be eroding in this digital-rush era.
I think you're blowing the difficulty of managing a guild under this kind of system out of proportion. First off, why would a guild make a rule against something if they would rather be oblivious to someone breaking the rule rather than having to address it? If I don't want players messaging me about someone playing an alt instead of doing X, then don't make it a rule. And if someone tries to start drama because of some trivial crap like a person playing on their alt, then you just tell that player "look man, nothing wrong with playing an alt and we're not going to micro manage people all the time like that". Frankly, I would probably be greatful that this interaction happened because reporting someone for something so trivial reveals something about the snitch's character, i.e. that they're kind of petty/entitled/self-centerd, and that's valuable information. Besides, I feel like the vast majority of players will have their alts in one guild, so this isn't going to make a bit of a difference in those cases.
However, if I'm in a guild that has a rule against playing in multiple guilds, then yeah I want to know if people are breaking the rule. If we decide to make it a rule, then there's an important reason for it, and letting fear of drama prevent you from managing an important aspect of your guild is a sign of weak leadership. Now, in practice what I would do is make the rule that you can't have characters in other guilds *without approval from the leadership. If somebody wants to put an alt in a small RP guild and goof around every now and then, then there's no problem there. However, if some mid-level member of my guild turns out to be an alt of max-level character in a guild that we are competing against... um, yea there's a problem there and the drama in this case is 100% necessary. Burying your head in the sand to ignore important issues for the sake of "avoiding drama" and calling that "trust" is crazy IMO.
Riahuf22 said:
You find people LFG'S and send them tells when you know they don't know your characters main? Look finding grp won't be a problem, and again if your biggest reasoning behind it is Guild stuff, and friends bothering you than tell them simply not today and have you have your peace, if they can't accept that than at that moment they are showing they are showing more interest into you main character than you as a guild member or a friend and possibly both, so again the system here isn't the problem but the people you are hanging around with.
Another thing is I am not only focusing on guilds and friend the recent post itself were focusing on those topics of the system so I in hand did as well but touched on the other parts in previous messages, so if you want to read them you can and than see what I had to say back than.
And before it gets blown out of proportion when I say they are showing more interest into your main than you, I don't mean they are bad friends or that they will from the time going forward be like that, literally just meant in that moment, as in that moment only.
I'm sorry it's my fault I do not master the language and it seems that I expressed myself badly since you seem to have understood the opposite of what I wanted to say
for me personally my friends and my guildmate are not the problem
the problem is the hundreds of pick ups that I do not know about anything except to have grouped with them a couple of hours and they seem to have the need to know which are my alters
My point in this matter is that my right to privacy is above their right to want to know about me
and the offline mode does not give me privacy except to do tradeskills or leave looking at my character afk to a wall of a city but when I want to play fully with my alter my privacy will disappear
Elki said:Riahuf22 said:
You find people LFG'S and send them tells when you know they don't know your characters main? Look finding grp won't be a problem, and again if your biggest reasoning behind it is Guild stuff, and friends bothering you than tell them simply not today and have you have your peace, if they can't accept that than at that moment they are showing they are showing more interest into you main character than you as a guild member or a friend and possibly both, so again the system here isn't the problem but the people you are hanging around with.
Another thing is I am not only focusing on guilds and friend the recent post itself were focusing on those topics of the system so I in hand did as well but touched on the other parts in previous messages, so if you want to read them you can and than see what I had to say back than.
And before it gets blown out of proportion when I say they are showing more interest into your main than you, I don't mean they are bad friends or that they will from the time going forward be like that, literally just meant in that moment, as in that moment only.
I'm sorry it's my fault I do not master the language and it seems that I expressed myself badly since you seem to have understood the opposite of what I wanted to say
for me personally my friends and my guildmate are not the problem
the problem is the hundreds of pick ups that I do not know about anything except to have grouped with them a couple of hours and they seem to have the need to know which are my alters
My point in this matter is that my right to privacy is above their right to want to know about me
and the offline mode does not give me privacy except to do tradeskills or leave looking at my character afk to a wall of a city but when I want to play fully with my alter my privacy will disappear
My way of thinking they can't simply just "look you up" you would have to be on the other character and say something and than they would know yes, but they can't just look up @soandso and know all of your characters, that is not what I am saying, or wanting.
And plus their will be the /ignore option so if someone decides to try to use this system in a way you discomfort you there is that system to protect you from him, and again I don't see many people doing this, maybe some that might want to be your friend sure and stuff but maliciously I don't so much, because at least to me when I don't like someone on a mmorpg I simply avoid him and don't respond to his actions, but that's just me.
Riahuf22 said:Crazzie said:Naw best to stay annon, there are too many trolls in this world.
Wouldn't you like to know who the trolls are to make sure you know who they are so you know whether to take them seriously or not?
A troll is generally a troll. If they are an ass on one character in all likelyhood they are an ass on all.
If not, and their behavior on one character doesn't negatively impact me, I don't particularly care. If they are such a significant ass that their reputation spreads the community will more than likely also start sharing the alts of that person as well.
BTW, your vision of what this system is, is significantly different than the system put forth by the OP and several in this thread. The OP stated that the chat logs would show the account name. This would presumably include any global/regional/channel chat. Others have said that in cases of a person KSing or ninja looting they wanted a way to look up the account name and ability to associate that to all the other characters of the account. They didn't want the ability for it to be disabled. They want full disclosure of the account name for all characters all the time, on demand.
Chanus said:Instead of having to add more and more layers of ways to get around the system because it's a bad system, why not just recognize it's a bad idea that brings on more complications than it solves and not do it?
How are we adding layers and layers to a system? Literally only said an offline and a offline to non friends o ly, lol is 2 function too many for you?
Riahuf22 said:Chanus said:Instead of having to add more and more layers of ways to get around the system because it's a bad system, why not just recognize it's a bad idea that brings on more complications than it solves and not do it?
How are we adding layers and layers to a system? Literally only said an offline and a offline to non friends o ly, lol is 2 function too many for you?
Like many well-intentioned systems, the loopholes, exploits, exemptions and abuses usually lead to a complexity to "fix" the thing than ever originally envisioned. This is why I'm usually of the opinion that systems like this are far more intrusive, expensive (in dev terms) and limiting (in gameplay terms) than they are worth.
Riahuf22 said:Chanus said:Instead of having to add more and more layers of ways to get around the system because it's a bad system, why not just recognize it's a bad idea that brings on more complications than it solves and not do it?
How are we adding layers and layers to a system? Literally only said an offline and a offline to non friends o ly, lol is 2 function too many for you?
And ignore anyone who abuses the system
And have guilds restructure their rules for it
And people should just up and move to new guilds if they don't like the feature being used
All for what? So obvious troll will be obvious?
On the back of taking privacy away from every single player, I think this is a bad idea and not worth its cost.
Feyshtey said:Riahuf22 said:Crazzie said:Naw best to stay annon, there are too many trolls in this world.
Wouldn't you like to know who the trolls are to make sure you know who they are so you know whether to take them seriously or not?
A troll is generally a troll. If they are an ass on one character in all likelyhood they are an ass on all.
If not, and their behavior on one character doesn't negatively impact me, I don't particularly care. If they are such a significant ass that their reputation spreads the community will more than likely also start sharing the alts of that person as well.
BTW, your vision of what this system is, is significantly different than the system put forth by the OP and several in this thread. The OP stated that the chat logs would show the account name. This would presumably include any global/regional/channel chat. Others have said that in cases of a person KSing or ninja looting they wanted a way to look up the account name and ability to associate that to all the other characters of the account. They didn't want the ability for it to be disabled. They want full disclosure of the account name for all characters all the time, on demand.
Than I disagree with the majority of that statement, I don't want people to look up an account, because that leads to huge problems, I don't even it to be an account name, but a nickname I guess that way the name your seeing has nothing to do with the account t name so hacking isn't possible by seeing it, kind of like the family name black desert uses.
So again if people are trying to have rhe system be basically spying I don't want that, I merely just want me to see your "nickname" and that it just a simply tag, nothing I can look up, just that if a see a lizard@soandso and we had problems and than I see Ogre@soandso and realize it's the same person I would avoid him and that's all nothing else, so again like I said earlier to you if they are trying to have a system that can be used maliciously I don't want any part of that, just a little something so I know who the person is if he decides to send me a message or says something in chat I know whether or not to engage conversation with him.
Kellie said:Works ok in elder scrolls online, I dont see why it wouldn't work ok here. If you have a preference against it, that's fair enough but to say its a bad system is wrong it works fine.
They use it in WoW too, sort of. If you're friends in the blizzard app then your friends know when you log in and such. Can be disabled. I have no problem with that kind of a system because it's a player's choice if and to whom they give that visibility.
Riahuf22 said:Feyshtey said:Riahuf22 said:Crazzie said:Naw best to stay annon, there are too many trolls in this world.
Wouldn't you like to know who the trolls are to make sure you know who they are so you know whether to take them seriously or not?
A troll is generally a troll. If they are an ass on one character in all likelyhood they are an ass on all.
If not, and their behavior on one character doesn't negatively impact me, I don't particularly care. If they are such a significant ass that their reputation spreads the community will more than likely also start sharing the alts of that person as well.
BTW, your vision of what this system is, is significantly different than the system put forth by the OP and several in this thread. The OP stated that the chat logs would show the account name. This would presumably include any global/regional/channel chat. Others have said that in cases of a person KSing or ninja looting they wanted a way to look up the account name and ability to associate that to all the other characters of the account. They didn't want the ability for it to be disabled. They want full disclosure of the account name for all characters all the time, on demand.
Than I disagree with the majority of that statement, I don't want people to look up an account, because that leads to huge problems, I don't even it to be an account name, but a nickname I guess that way the name your seeing has nothing to do with the account t name so hacking isn't possible by seeing it, kind of like the family name black desert uses.
So again if people are trying to have rhe system be basically spying I don't want that, I merely just want me to see your "nickname" and that it just a simply tag, nothing I can look up, just that if a see a lizard@soandso and we had problems and than I see Ogre@soandso and realize it's the same person I would avoid him and that's all nothing else, so again like I said earlier to you if they are trying to have a system that can be used maliciously I don't want any part of that, just a little something so I know who the person is if he decides to send me a message or says something in chat I know whether or not to engage conversation with him.
So in your system, as long as a KS'er or ninja looter never says anything, you get no usable information?
If he's KS'ing or training and knows the system exists, he'd be an idiot to say anything. Most trolls are idiots, and you're probably right that they wouldn't be able to resist saying something. But it wouldn't take long for some people to know how the system exposes them and circumvent it entirely. Thus, the intended purpose of the system is rendered useless.
Feyshtey said:If he's KS'ing or training and knows the system exists, he'd be an idiot to say anything. Most trolls are idiots, and you're probably right that they wouldn't be able to resist saying something. But it wouldn't take long for some people to know how the system exposes them and circumvent it entirely. Thus, the intended purpose of the system is rendered useless.
It doesn't because their a such thing as taking a video of him acting in this behavior and therefore all the devs need is the video and they look him up and punish him accordingly, your talking about physically actions in the game which the @ system.has nothing to do with. Though can help with the reporting system but the situation your talking about a simple video works even better because you can't deny what you see right in front of you.
Riahuf22 said:Feyshtey said:If he's KS'ing or training and knows the system exists, he'd be an idiot to say anything. Most trolls are idiots, and you're probably right that they wouldn't be able to resist saying something. But it wouldn't take long for some people to know how the system exposes them and circumvent it entirely. Thus, the intended purpose of the system is rendered useless.
It doesn't because their a such thing as taking a video of him acting in this behavior and therefore all the devs need is the video and they look him up and punish him accordingly, your talking about physically actions in the game which the @ system.has nothing to do with. Though can help with the reporting system but the situation your talking about a simple video works even better because you can deny what you see right in front of you.
The devs have access to the account information. They aren't punishing a character, they are punishing the player. The system doesn't come into play at all. Which is also true for someone being abusive verbally. You can just as easily take video of them doing so, and in fact that should be unnecessary as well, since the chat logs exist in the infrastructure and viewable by devs/gm's there.
The abusive behavior you mean to curb can just as well be managed by the gm's without this system. The only thing the system provides is the ability for all of a player's characters to be policed by the community rather than just the one character than was abusive (if it was in fact just one).
Conversely the same system allows for an entire account of a player to be wrongly accused as well. It can easily bring as much harm to an innnocent person as to a guilty one.
That also true with false reporting, but reporting people will be in the game, you can say what it is what you want about it but the system itself again isn't the problem it's the players that use it incorrectly that is the problem, just like open world isn't the problem but peoe who go around and KS and steal other people camps and train them is the problem.