zoltar said:It's possible, but requires a separate account and sub for each guild you want to spy on without those guilds being able to discover you've got multiple toons in different guilds. So it's true that you can't prevent it from happening, but requiring multiple accounts/subs is an okay deterrent. If someone wants to pay for multiple subs to do this, at least the fact that they're having to pay to do it gives me comfort.
The idea of P2S (Pay-To-Spy/Stalk) gives me no comfort whatsoever. That's basically putting a monetary value on all of the issues that have been expressed here. Denying privacy from players isn't going to sit well. If someone wants a reasonable degree of privacy they should get it without ever having to justify why. That degree of privacy should not be compromised because you (or anyone else) find solace in knowing that someone has to pay $15 a month to cause issues rather than being able to do it for free.
zoltar said:oneADseven said:zoltar said:Wrong. Someone mentioned wanting anonymous alts for spying purposes. In a game that focuses on contested PVE content, allowing no-life guilds to effortlessly put alts in other guilds to sabotage their efforts is complete BS. This alone should be enough of a reason to justify account-linked alts.
Again ... this can still be accomplished by simply playing another account. It's way more effective, too.
It's possible, but requires a separate account and sub for each guild you want to spy on without those guilds being able to discover you've got multiple toons in different guilds. So it's true that you can't prevent it from happening, but requiring multiple accounts/subs is an okay deterrent. If someone wants to pay for multiple subs to do this, at least the fact that they're having to pay to do it gives me comfort.
I think your overthinking alot of this. It will all work out.
as a neutral observer from a pvp pov, discriminating to one character is enough. the leveling is going to take more time anyways. maybe i'm just an idiot and believe in 2nd or 3rd chances, but ppl change and sometimes have a bad day and are venting. they probably could just be trolling as stress relief.
if it's a significant time investment to level another character, then there isn't a need to have a tagged account wide whatever.
i probably don't know any better since the community is more bureaucratic on pve servers.
i'll let you guys go at it now. have fun squabbling :D
stellarmind said:as a neutral observer from a pvp pov, discriminating to one character is enough. the leveling is going to take more time anyways. maybe i'm just an idiot and believe in 2nd or 3rd chances, but ppl change and sometimes have a bad day and are venting. they probably could just be trolling as stress relief.
if it's a significant time investment to level another character, then there isn't a need to have a tagged account wide whatever.
i probably don't know any better since the community is more bureaucratic on pve servers.
i'll let you guys go at it now. have fun squabbling :D
I see you, you enjoy the occasional "stress relief" lol
Aich said:stellarmind said:
I see you, you enjoy the occasional "stress relief" lol
i operate under a strict code of only killing those that interfere with my rotations. then i end up camping them and communicate that this spot is under my protection :D if enough spot robbers come get me i go guerilla warfare mode picking of stragglers ^.^
oneADseven said:zoltar said:It's possible, but requires a separate account and sub for each guild you want to spy on without those guilds being able to discover you've got multiple toons in different guilds. So it's true that you can't prevent it from happening, but requiring multiple accounts/subs is an okay deterrent. If someone wants to pay for multiple subs to do this, at least the fact that they're having to pay to do it gives me comfort.
The idea of P2S (Pay-To-Spy/Stalk) gives me no comfort whatsoever. That's basically putting a monetary value on all of the issues that have been expressed here. Denying privacy from players isn't going to sit well. If someone wants a reasonable degree of privacy they should get it without ever having to justify why. That degree of privacy should not be compromised because you (or anyone else) find solace in knowing that someone has to pay $15 a month to cause issues rather than being able to do it for free.
Where do you draw the line on what's reasonable? Name changes? Server transfers? The ability to play as anonymous (i.e. your name isnt' displayed at all to anyone)?
I fundamentally disagree that the ability to disguise your in-game identity in any manner falls under "a reasonable degree of privacy". You're you, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for anyone interacting with you to be able to recognize you as yourself (i.e. the player).
zoltar said:oneADseven said:zoltar said:It's possible, but requires a separate account and sub for each guild you want to spy on without those guilds being able to discover you've got multiple toons in different guilds. So it's true that you can't prevent it from happening, but requiring multiple accounts/subs is an okay deterrent. If someone wants to pay for multiple subs to do this, at least the fact that they're having to pay to do it gives me comfort.
The idea of P2S (Pay-To-Spy/Stalk) gives me no comfort whatsoever. That's basically putting a monetary value on all of the issues that have been expressed here. Denying privacy from players isn't going to sit well. If someone wants a reasonable degree of privacy they should get it without ever having to justify why. That degree of privacy should not be compromised because you (or anyone else) find solace in knowing that someone has to pay $15 a month to cause issues rather than being able to do it for free.
Where do you draw the line on what's reasonable? Name changes? Server transfers? The ability to play as anonymous (i.e. your name isnt' displayed at all to anyone)?
I fundamentally disagree that the ability to disguise your in-game identity in any manner falls under "a reasonable degree of privacy". You're you, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for anyone interacting with you to be able to recognize you as yourself (i.e. the player).
then we should not use nicks we should be forced to use our real name
Would we also add our national identification number?
zoltar said:Where do you draw the line on what's reasonable? Name changes? Server transfers? The ability to play as anonymous (i.e. your name isnt' displayed at all to anyone)?
I fundamentally disagree that the ability to disguise your in-game identity in any manner falls under "a reasonable degree of privacy". You're you, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for anyone interacting with you to be able to recognize you as yourself (i.e. the player).
My personal preference doesn't matter nearly as much as the universal standard of what people expect. Privacy is something that many people appreciate in this day and age due to the advances in technology. A lot of people are tired of being analyzed and broken down into some sort of algorithmic chunk of data. There are many players who want to escape all of that nonsense that constantly surrounds every other aspect of our life and spend some time in a virtual world while in the comfort of our home.
Please see the United States Constitution, particularly the 4'th Amendment. Here is a Wikipedia article on the Expectation of Privacy with additional details on cyberspace:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy
To put it bluntly, the right to privacy is considered a "right" to many people. We have watched many rights diminish over time, piece by piece, caveat by caveat, exception by exception, disclaimer by disclaimer. The average person doesn't have the burden to justify their right to privacy unless there is some sort of caveat/exception/disclaimer that challenges it. If you want to make a case for adding more of those then go for it but I am objectively opposed to any/all blanket assertions that suggest that "the pros outweigh the cons." Just because there are bad actors out there doesn't mean that good people should have their expectation of privacy forsaken. I can only speak for myself here but I don't like the idea of other people being able to keep tabs on me when I am specifically in the mood to enjoy privacy. Being in the mood to enjoy privacy doesn't suggest that I'm trying to get away with something shady or that I don't want consequences for my actions.
I think it's beyond ridiculous to draw any kind of parallel to real-life privacy concerns. 100% players should have complete and total anonymity for their real identity and any personal information. That was never in question. But when you create an account, you are able to create an anonymous username. The implication that there are privacy issues with being able to identify your characters using this already anonymous identification is insane to me. The player's (as in the real person, not the characters) idenity is anonymous. Period, full stop. There's no need to go any further as far as privacy for your identity in the game... because you're already anonymous.
Not in favor of anything that allows people to avoid the consequences of their behavior.
Besides, the Progeny system may make this all moot if your account has a family name (surname) that all toons would share (like in BDO). Granted this is speculation since they have not let us know how it will be implemented.
However, this does allow for accountability, account wide, without giving away any personal information.
That at being said, I am in favor of having toons that not part of one over-arching family/account name.
zoltar said:I think it's beyond ridiculous to draw any kind of parallel to real-life privacy concerns. 100% players should have complete and total anonymity for their real identity and any personal information. That was never in question. But when you create an account, you are able to create an anonymous username. The implication that there are privacy issues with being able to identify your characters using this already anonymous identification is insane to me. The player's (as in the real person, not the characters) idenity is anonymous. Period, full stop. There's no need to go any further as far as privacy for your identity in the game... because you're already anonymous.
think of a company like daybreak
you have a single account for EQ EQ2 DC Universe Planeside 2
think of Blizzard WOW Diablo 3 StarCraft 2 Heroes of the storm hearstone Overwatch
if Pantheon was released on Steam or some other similar platform I still believe that I should know my account by interacting with one of my characters
zoltar said:I think it's beyond ridiculous to draw any kind of parallel to real-life privacy concerns. 100% players should have complete and total anonymity for their real identity and any personal information. That was never in question. But when you create an account, you are able to create an anonymous username. The implication that there are privacy issues with being able to identify your characters using this already anonymous identification is insane to me. The player's (as in the real person, not the characters) idenity is anonymous. Period, full stop. There's no need to go any further as far as privacy for your identity in the game... because you're already anonymous.
I understand why you're responding this way considering the various things I cited but you're incorrectly assuming the parallel I was shooting for. The privacy in question wasn't related to personal/sensitive information in the context of what would be compromised. To more accurately describe the parallel I would ask you to consider how real-life privacy has severely diminished over time with the caveats/exceptions/disclaimers and then compare that to how the same thing has been done with the "MMORPG Version" of privacy that many players have come to expect as standard. As technology evolved we were afforded the opportunity to selectively graduate our online relationships. Players had the option to pick and choose whether they would add someone to their friends list on a character level or an account level. As more time went on, that option was taken away ... in certain games. At one point or another, it was determined that the "pros outweigh the cons" to just make the account-based relationship the standard. That has happened in some games but not all of them.
My point is that there was a cost for doing that and there are plenty of people who were negatively affected. Tigersin is one such person who specifically stated that they would not play the game if your request were to come into fruition. You downplayed the significance of what they claimed because you assumed that the "fun-factor" of the game was more prevalent than the value that they placed on their idea of an acceptable "MMORPG Version" of privacy. I think that's a really dangerous assumption and while I agree with a lot of the underlying points of what you have been suggesting, I disagree that the end could be justified by the means. If someone doesn't feel comfortable with other players being able to keep tabs on them, that is sufficient enough reason to give them the option to opt-out. You're insisting that they shouldn't have that option because you're convinced that the means would justify the end. Furthermore, I have repeatedly pointed out that the "end" that you desire can easily be circumvented by people who pay an extra $15 per month. You may rationalize that as a fair cost but I think it would be opening up a can of worms. What is accomplished in the end? Instead of people doing bad things on alts they do them on other accounts? And you're okay with that because they have to pay $15? I think that's insane.
zoltar said:You're you, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for anyone interacting with you to be able to recognize you as yourself (i.e. the player).
So all the effort I put into my character and my characters personality, all my hopes and dreams for exisiting with you in a fantasy realm are out the window because you want to know who you're 'really' talking to? Nah. No chance. I won't exist in this game world with you.
But um. Yeah! :) I think oneADseven put it better. I'll just go with what he said.
I have 0 desire to be friended at an account level or even have that be an option. My real friends will know all my characters and have my cell number. I have no desire for constant tells asking me to swap toons for a raid or high end dungeon if I'm in the mood to be on an alt that has the purpose of separating me from my normal online community.
I understand people's concerns about reputation carrying over so that people feel the full weight of their actions. I just don't think it's enough of a reason to deny me account privacy. Honestly if it's like EQ tanking your reputation on a character so badly that it impacts that character's ability to group is a pretty steep punishment.
Not to mention people are stupid and blab. When I saw some one get that far gone in their reputation and roll a new toon it seems like it often came out who was who. With voice over IP being the standard it's even more likely you will be discovered.
As for spying behaviors. That's an unfortunate side effect of people taking a game so seriously that it dominates their life. It simply can't be prevented if people really want to do it.
I would absolutely be okay with a /ignore applying to an account. Then if you can't hear someone when they are speaking you know their account annoyed you enough to /ignore them and you can react in whatever way you deem appropriate. Provides accountability to a degree without completely hosing privacy.
If a system such as this was put into place, I won't bother with the game beyond whatever subscription I get for free after release, I'm sorry but no thankyou!
If I'm playing a main character thats highly desireable in groups but I just want to sit down and mingle in a different personality in a ROLE PLAYING GAME! I can't do that if everyone knows who my main character is, If I choose to tell people who my other characters are that should be MY CHOICE! and I don't want to have to pay for 2 accounts to do that!
This is an MMORPG and though some people might not think it breaks the privacy of the player in any real way, I would feel as though my privacy is being broken. I might want toons where no one knows my main characters name at all, maybe I don't want to deal with the people I usually do while gaming in Pantheon on a daily basis and just want to relax and chill out without having to feel like an ass for telling my usual group no thankyou! I'm not up to playing with you guys today! I just want to do my own thing!
The reason for wanting a system like this might make sense, but there are too many other reasons not to have a system like this put into place.
I don't support this at all!
oneADseven said:zoltar said:I think it's beyond ridiculous to draw any kind of parallel to real-life privacy concerns. 100% players should have complete and total anonymity for their real identity and any personal information. That was never in question. But when you create an account, you are able to create an anonymous username. The implication that there are privacy issues with being able to identify your characters using this already anonymous identification is insane to me. The player's (as in the real person, not the characters) idenity is anonymous. Period, full stop. There's no need to go any further as far as privacy for your identity in the game... because you're already anonymous.
I understand why you're responding this way considering the various things I cited but you're incorrectly assuming the parallel I was shooting for. The privacy in question wasn't related to personal/sensitive information in the context of what would be compromised. To more accurately describe the parallel I would ask you to consider how real-life privacy has severely diminished over time with the caveats/exceptions/disclaimers and then compare that to how the same thing has been done with the "MMORPG Version" of privacy that many players have come to expect as standard. As technology evolved we were afforded the opportunity to selectively graduate our online relationships. Players had the option to pick and choose whether they would add someone to their friends list on a character level or an account level. As more time went on, that option was taken away ... in certain games. At one point or another, it was determined that the "pros outweigh the cons" to just make the account-based relationship the standard. That has happened in some games but not all of them.
My point is that there was a cost for doing that and there are plenty of people who were negatively affected. Tigersin is one such person who specifically stated that they would not play the game if your request were to come into fruition. You downplayed the significance of what they claimed because you assumed that the "fun-factor" of the game was more prevalent than the value that they placed on their idea of an acceptable "MMORPG Version" of privacy. I think that's a really dangerous assumption and while I agree with a lot of the underlying points of what you have been suggesting, I disagree that the end could be justified by the means. If someone doesn't feel comfortable with other players being able to keep tabs on them, that is sufficient enough reason to give them the option to opt-out. You're insisting that they shouldn't have that option because you're convinced that the means would justify the end. Furthermore, I have repeatedly pointed out that the "end" that you desire can easily be circumvented by people who pay an extra $15 per month. You may rationalize that as a fair cost but I think it would be opening up a can of worms. What is accomplished in the end? Instead of people doing bad things on alts they do them on other accounts? And you're okay with that because they have to pay $15? I think that's insane.
Ok, I see what you're tying to say about privacy in general, but I still fundamentally disagree that there should be any expectation of privacy for a player's identity in an MMO outside of their real life personal information. The characters are an extention of the player, so they should be identified as such. I'm not saying the ends justify the means. I'm saying there is no need for justification because there was never any right to this particular (false) kind of privacy in the first place.
Drauk4131 said:If I'm playing a main character thats highly desireable in groups but I just want to sit down and mingle in a different personality in a ROLE PLAYING GAME! I can't do that if everyone knows who my main character is, If I choose to tell people who my other characters are that should be MY CHOICE! and I don't want to have to pay for 2 accounts to do that!
Or you could just be honest with people and tell them you're busy. #communitymatters
zoltar said:Ok, I see what you're tying to say about privacy in general, but I still fundamentally disagree that there should be any expectation of privacy for a player's identity in an MMO outside of their real life personal information. The characters are an extention of the player, so they should be identified as such. I'm not saying the ends justify the means. I'm saying there is no need for justification because there was never any right to this particular (false) kind of privacy in the first place.
That's like saying that the license plate on my car should also include the VIN number because it's an extension of identifying the vehicle. Even though we have been driving around for 100 years without having to do that, this policy should go into effect across the entire US because another country decided to do it and they think that the pros outweigh the cons. We shouldn't be able to resist that change because we never had the specific right to not have that information presented in the first place. This is a bad analogy in terms of the "end" result because it wouldn't be all that harmful ... but the point is that what you're asking for is a change to policy.
When players are used to doing things a certain way for an extended period of time ... you need to justify these kinds of decisions, especially if the change involves something as important/sensitive as privacy. I think plenty of people have given valid reasons as to why they wouldn't appreciate this kind of change. You can keep tossing out the "Community Matters" hashtag but you're butchering it, IMO. If I don't feel like talking to someone who calls me it's obnoxious to suggest that I should pick up the phone and tell them why. Sometimes it's better to let the phone go to voicemail because I'm purposely choosing to ignore/avoid them. If you think that makes someone a bad person I don't know what to tell you.
If we go with Nephele's suggestion where players have the option to participate, this is still going to have an impact. It's highly likely that there will be competitive guilds out there who will require their members to add leadership to their friend list on an account-based level, or possibly the entire guild as a whole. There are plenty of people who wouldn't want to be put in that position but that's where the beauty of choice comes into play. If someone doesn't want to associate with that guild as a matter of principle then that is their choice. It works both ways. It's better to let both parties set their boundaries and allow people to manage their relationships as they please. If the shoe doesn't fit then don't try to socially engineer people into wearing it.
oneADseven said: "...that's where the beauty of choice comes into play."
Agreed, 100%. Neph's idea allows ME to choose with whom I wish to share ID, and at what level. That seems more enjoyable (freedom!) than forcing me to announce to everyone on all servers every time I begin to boot up the game. I tend to make many, MANY friends - and though most evenings I truly enjoy being buried in tells/requests for aid/group invites/activities while barding about, occasionally I just want to kick back anonymously (#funmatterstoo - see what I did there?).
My opinion (FWIW): the desire (need?) to publicly tag a few ill-behaved miscreants (who likely won't care) across their entire accounts should not wag the rest of the well mannered community loving dog.
P.S. I would flip it around - I would appreciate an /ignore_account command that lets me be blissfully unaware of any/all alts owned by that certain someone who has ruined my day once-too-often.
My game, my choice.
whoo, 3 days and already 4 pages. Bloody subject even if I remember it was already treated in the past (can't remember the topic names though).
I will never be in favor of any game system reducing immersion and character to character interaction to the point the game just turn into another facebook app or whatever privacy killer can be invented. It sucked in every freaking game that I know used it (gw2 & ESO) and the "account system" tied to guilds and such made it even worse (even if it's not the point of the topic) and making it "optionnal" will just make people who do not use it beeing very suspicions, even if they protect their privacy by principle or for immersion reasons, just like it was with /anon in EQ.
I'm not a big fan of irl analogy, but can't stop to think about : Do we have to wear a shirt including our adress and private informations so people do know where we live and to which home we are tied ? Doesn't sound super cool. Only GM's should have access to theses informations, and if we do **** on a character, he should be punished by exclusion over time (rep matters etc...), if we do on multiple characters the same will happen. If a guy with a bad reputations just try to be better and stop beeing an ass with a new character to ease the process, then fine, it's not a crime and he shouldn't be framed on sight.
People seem scared of the "guy who is an ass on a toon and an angel on another", but honestly even if we can all barely relate to people we knew and acted in such manner, how many were they ? And honestly, the game is the least of their problem if they can just split their personnality in order to serve mischievous interest, I wouldn't be affraid of thoses peoples, just be sorry for them as they seem to have big mental troubles.
philo said:Chanus said:It has never been the case in the history of online gaming that someone...was in any way inhibited in their actions by the community.
This explains a lot about many of your posts. It is simply an incorrect statement.
You could argue it's incorrect if you cherry pick what parts of the quote to respond to.
Can you name an instance where the community banded together to effectively shut down the actions of a persistent troll?
I'm not talking about one time your guild got together and trained a guy or out-DPSed a camp. I mean actually stopping the behavior.
I can't. I've been playing online games for nearly 30 years.
If someone is being a troll to the point where they're ruining their reputation and rolling alts to hide their identity, they either are not acting that way on the new alt because they've decided they don't want to keep being a troll, or they keep being a troll.
At that point, the only thing that stops them, if anything at all, is GM intervention.
What I have seen is people being harassed by many people, like a former guild, to the point they're not comfortable playing their character anymore. You would have it so they are also run out of the game entirely because they have no way to distance themselves.
I hope we will be able to see account name - actually I'd be very suprised and disappointed if we couldn't. I get that some people may mature over time and begin the game as a nuisance and wants to change his bahaviour later on - however: a) all actions have consequences b) we are all humans. So reputation as in real life can be lost relatively quickly, but regaining it along with a trust of fellow Terminus dwellers (Terminusians?) will (and should) be long process - but as I've said we are all humans - capable of understanding, forgiving and forgetting. However if we won't have an option of recognising the person behind alts - there are no real repercussions of our actions - nothing stops person from stealing from a guild and then rejoining it with different char or having one char for abusing players and other with honey-sweet personality reaping profits from other players charity. If person wants to reset their rep there is always possibility of buying another account, if he don't want to "bother" with apologising community. Not to mention the benefits such system bring when friends are involved - person coming back after 2 year brake will have big trouble finding people that he once knew, as most likely everyone would be playing on alts and some perhaps in other guilds OR seeing that our friend is online but with different character - we have nothing to do, while he struggles - sometimes i'd be more than happy to mentor him or just run around and buff/heal him - and there were multiple occasions that I simply wasn't aware of the situation. I'd be much more inclined toward chat statuses - eg. AFK (were messages would go through, but the players would know to not expect responce) or BUSY/Unavailable (with no message shown to the receiver) - no OFFLINE mode though - unless the person really is offline.
oneADseven said:That's like saying that the license plate on my car should also include the VIN number because it's an extension of identifying the vehicle. Even though we have been driving around for 100 years without having to do that, this policy should go into effect across the entire US because another country decided to do it and they think that the pros outweigh the cons. We shouldn't be able to resist that change because we never had the specific right to not have that information presented in the first place. This is a bad analogy in terms of the "end" result because it wouldn't be all that harmful ...
1- I never said people can't resist the change. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.
2- This is a really horrible analogy. The basic premise is off because a license plate is only partially for identifying a vehicle and it's just as much about linking the vehicle to an owner that has registered it. There's just really not that much in these situations that parallel each other. A better analogy would be legislation requiring businesses to prominently display their parent company on their packaging and advertising. One specific area where this is an issue is craft beer where mega-breweries like Budweiser have tried to capitalize on the demand for craft microbrews by marketing their own "craft" labels or buying up the competition. So people think they're buying beer from some small, independent brewery, but it ends up being Anheiser-Bush half the time. Your argument is along the lines of saying "Hey, you don't need to know who the parent company is. I'm my own thing, and it's not your business man"... no. You're owned by someone and customers should know who they are dealing with without needing a magnifying glass or having to go to some registry and search on their own.
but the point is that what you're asking for is a change to policy. When players are used to doing things a certain way for an extended period of time ... you need to justify these kinds of decisions, especially if the change involves something as important/sensitive as privacy.
This is a flimsy argument because
1- Many games have already switched to various versions of the account-based model. Console systems like Xbox Live use a single account name for their players across all their games. I think there's a good argument that players are accustomed to account-based model as much as the character-level.
2- Pantheon is it's own game. There is no policy to change.