Well said Idrial. I like to consider myself an old-school gamer but I've been reminded quite a bit that there are truly people who walked to and from school barefoot ... in the snow, and uphill, both ways. I remember playing FFXIV when it first came out. The game was pretty horrible. FFXI had regional auction houses (these were amazing) but for whatever reason they wanted to try something different. They made it so everybody had to sell their stuff through their NPC merchant. It was an utter disaster. I'm not sure how long that game lasted before they completely scrapped it and started fresh but that failure should serve as an ultimate reminder that we should really be careful what we wish for. There were plenty of aspects of the original FFXIV that I enjoyed ... but it was ruined because they were too narrowly focused and unwilling to compromise.
It actually seemed like they wanted to go out of their way to create pain points. They failed and eventually bounced back ... with FFXIV "A Realm Reborn." That game was modeled closer to WoW and has been considered highly successful. I despised that game. I really hope VR can find a sweet spot where they can make a fun game and bring back plenty of the old-school stuff without making the whole experience feel like regular people are scalping their own heads with a potato peeler. I think Pantheon has the potential to be wildly successful ... to be a trend setter, and to showcase how fun and enjoyable it is to play a game where accomplishments are meaningful and deserved and where reputations matter. More than anything ... I think a lot of us miss that open world sensation where we aren't run around on rails.
oneADseven said:"We" is very subjective. There are a lot of people backing this game. There seems to be a minority that is unwilling to make compromises and that shouldn't thwart the potential for this game. It's been stated countless times that Pantheon isn't an EQ redux but you'll never stop seeing posts on here from people who want to see that game emulated as closely as possible. The mantra of "If it ain't broke don't fix it" truly does not apply here. I think there are certain aspects of the game that have been made so similar to EQ that it actually feeds that fire and it's unfortunate. It's constantly pitting the EQ zealots against everybody else. When sound effects / emotes / animations are identical to EQ it only justifies the rationale that this game is truly on the path of being a re-skinned EQ. That isn't what I signed up for. At the end of the day a segment of the population will be unsatisfied. Hopefully VR makes the right choice and decides to ship a game that will be highly profitable. Compromises need to be made and if certain players aren't willing to make them then maybe they are disillusioned with reality. Or ... maybe they will get everything they want, and those who were looking forward to an evolution to the genre ... a game that takes and combines the best aspects of many old-school RPG's while making a genuine effort to mitigate the pain points ... maybe they will be SOL. I guess we'll see. Personally I'm tired of seeing all the "EQ or nothing" diatribe.
OneADseven, I have yet to see anyone who wants a 100% EQ clone. Just only speaking for myself, I know I'm not advocating for an EQ emu - that already exists on P1999 and I have played that. I think what myself and others want is an updated game with some vision from that old-school depth and challenge. Pantheon is progressing quite nicely. Will there be some parallels to Classic EQ given that Classic EQ was KING during that fun time? :) Of course there will be! I'm so excited for Pantheon because finally we will end the "this or nothing" that exists in the mmo market at the moment. #communitymatters
Pantheon onward :)
My grandfather is a bitter man. He often told me that I don't know hardship as I grew up, in particular he meant the physical hardship and lack of pampering children during the time he grew up. He's right, he grew up in the 1930s and I did not.
He also hates everything modern, in particular computers. The reasoning behind that is that computers are far too complicated and hard to learn compared to more traditional tools of trade like those tractors he so dearly loves.
Those things are contradictory. If you admire hardship, then embrace hardship. I also think he's wrong, for me it's not easier to use a computer than to drive a tractor. They're similar in the sense that you can always find ways to go deeper into the tool and gain some sort of mastery or just use it as a layman. It seems quite clear to me that he's just being conservative for the sake of it. I hope we don't do that with Pantheon and while I vastly prefer older MMOs to newer ones, we can't just decide that new things are bad solely on the merit of being new. Every nuance of it has to be considered and talked about. We're not making the decision, VR are, and I think Pantheon will end up better the more aspects they actively consider before shipping the game.
Just for the record Syrif I wasn't trying to suggest that you in particular were advocating for an EQ emulator. I will say, however, that you should avoid telling people that if they don't like certain things they should go play WoW or some other game, especially when the basis of your argument isn't based on fact. If anybody can point me to a quote from VR where they said corpse runs will absolutely have loot bound to them come launch, please do so. The "compromise" I suggested was that our corpses would only last a period of time before rotting, and that players would earn back a sizeable chunk of XP if they manage to recover them. I'm not a fan of the loot-bound corpses ... that's just my opinion. That said, I am a fan of the sense of urgency that can be created with a corpse rot mechanic. I'm not interested in WoW or EQ Live. Telling people to go elsewhere if they disagree isn't good for the community. This is a development forum and people are free to speak about whatever the hell they want ... the same as you when you created this thread. You can say whatever you want but it's important to be mindful when it comes to telling people that maybe Pantheon isn't the game for them. I can tell you this much for certain ... I have watched a load of people stop posting on this forum. There are a lot of former FFXI players who would bring something up about the golden years of their game and they would be met with resilience or hostility. We need to get over this hump of player segmentation. I have almost 2,500 posts on this forum and I still feel like an outsider because I never played EQ. Imagine that!
*Edit -- I apologize if this is coming off harshly because I really don't intend it to. Overall I think we probably look at things very similarly. I think our experience early on may have been a little different and therein is the crux of the issue. I just don't see why it has to be an issue. Pantheon doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition that brings back every single aspect of EQ. I have direct experience with a recent MMO trying to recreate an EC Tunnel type of experience (not exactly the same but they removed AH and forced player to player direct trade) ... and it was miserable. I compare that to the regional auction houses from FFXI which were amazing. I have experienced countless death penalties and I could probably pull up at least 20 posts from other threads where you'll see me advocating for a harsh death penalty and real risk vs reward. I just feel a little disappointed sometimes because I feel like there are folks in the community that are far more alike than they are different and it's the little details that make both sides feel a world apart.
Spluffen said:Feyshtey said:What you're effectively saying is that there's a market (admittedly a minority) who want a certain kind of game, and that we are **** out of luck, and that we instead should let yet another title be added to the lengthy list of ones we don't want to play.
This is a straw man. VR haven't stated that things are set in stone, compromise isn't against any of the core tenets of Pantheon. Syrif's so called "ease down "approach"" is wildly subjective. Adding another title to the list of games not to be played is clearly not what Porygon is saying. You either have not grasped what you're accusing people in this thread of or (hopefully not) being willfully dishonest to strengthen your argument.
That depends entirely on what compromises we're talking about. Do you mean that there's instant group finders that port you to the group? Or do you mean a localised AH? One is a compromise that could turn out ok without damaging the core tenets. The other is not.
Compromise generally means to meet someone somewhere in the middle. In an MMO there are 100's of contestable mechanics. If everyone meets somewhere in the middle on every topic you end up with a very middle of the road MMO. Some might use the term mediocre.
oneADseven said:I really hope VR can find a sweet spot where they can make a fun game and bring back plenty of the old-school stuff without making the whole experience feel like regular people are scalping their own heads with a potato peeler
lol.
Quite.
Anyone who wants more of a challenge can easily make one for themselves - it's easy. Open WoW, create a toon. Enter the world. Now go straight to Duskwood. Now set your monitor to VGA resolution and remove the 'M' key from your keyboard. Bam, it's like EQ all over again. There, not only are you now having fun, you're not ruining anyone else's.
Feyshtey said:That depends entirely on what compromises we're talking about. Do you mean that there's instant group finders that port you to the group? Or do you mean a localised AH? One is a compromise that could turn out ok without damaging the core tenets. The other is not.
One I have seen people suggest on these forums; the other I have not.
There's plenty to discuss without stirring up bogeymen.
OneADseven - it's good discussion - I don't mean what I've said as an argument. No offense taken. In my opinion I think 'EQ zealot or purist' is irrelevant just simply because I haven't seen anyone who wants an EQ clone with Pantheon. To clarify - I think what much of the community wants is a game with updated 'depth and challenge elements' of which some were born in the EQ Classic era. I think Pantheon will finally end the "this mmo or nothing" that currently dominates the mmo market. Having a diversity of mmos is something to celebrate - my opinion. What I meant in my post is some aspects of what some people wanted exists pretty widely in those games and they at least have the option to play those games - no offense meant.
Truly am sorry you didn't play Classic EQ at that time - the wonder that it was (at that time), but I am glad you are with us :) I think you will like Pantheon.
Spluffen said:My grandfather is a bitter man. He often told me that I don't know hardship as I grew up, in particular he meant the physical hardship and lack of pampering children during the time he grew up. He's right, he grew up in the 1930s and I did not.
He also hates everything modern, in particular computers. The reasoning behind that is that computers are far too complicated and hard to learn compared to more traditional tools of trade like those tractors he so dearly loves.
Those things are contradictory. If you admire hardship, then embrace hardship. I also think he's wrong, for me it's not easier to use a computer than to drive a tractor. They're similar in the sense that you can always find ways to go deeper into the tool and gain some sort of mastery or just use it as a layman. It seems quite clear to me that he's just being conservative for the sake of it. I hope we don't do that with Pantheon and while I vastly prefer older MMOs to newer ones, we can't just decide that new things are bad solely on the merit of being new. Every nuance of it has to be considered and talked about. We're not making the decision, VR are, and I think Pantheon will end up better the more aspects they actively consider before shipping the game.
I think much (not all) of the community doesn't really have an mmo in existence at the moment that really interests them. Modernizing and updating much of the depth and challenge that once existed in mmos will be a blast to play. Having a diversity of different mmos available to players is a good thing for sure. I agree - VR are making good decisions and a good game! :)
1AD7 I hear ya man I'm a huge EQ fan, but I know for a fact I would rather have AH than a EC tunnel experience again, just like I'm fine that it takes almost an hour to travel from Freeport to Everfrost, but I don't want to experience the 2-2 1/2 hours to travel from kaladim to Everfrost when kaladim is simply 2 zones away from Freeport. Like I said I'm a huge fan of EQ and I want that old school feel back that I'm experienced when I was young, but at the same time I am willing to see there were some things that could make the gaming experience better with some changes that have. To be done, and I'm not saying that the points I've stated are going to make the game better, I'm saying they would be better for me.
Riahuf22 - those travels could be fun or kinda rough for sure :)
Just having different mmos will be nice.. where WoW/EQ-Live favor more instant gratification, Pantheon may favor more depth. People will have options to play. We definitely need more diversity of mmos.
CanadinaXegony said:Risk vs reward as opposed to walking two steps ..getting a pat on the head and a cookie for finding the next quest npc with a ! over its head.
Old school gaming where you work together as a team, figure things out..strategize, learn...climb up that learning curve and actually feel like you have accomplished something. I don't want a screen full of third party apps blocking my view, I don't want to have things handed to me..I want to learn to use my skills and my wisdom, to get that feeling of accomplishment, I also look forward to team work...not soloing all the way to level cap. Don't want to die, keep your wits about you, although sometimes death is unavoidable, depending on the situation. And the Leeroy Jenkins of the world may have to change their tactics..lol Don't train your group...stand and die, easier to rez one person than a whole wiped group. :) And most of all...when in a raid group...LISTEN to the raid leaders. Yup. :)
Cana
I dont think anyone on these forums, including the people asking for various QoL changes want the game to be a WoW clone. It seems at times that people REFUSE to shake the idea that this isnt EQ3, which causes them to turn against anyone that doesnt also think that. Even to the extent that (in relation to what ive highlighted above) theres an entire thread about how training other groups in order to save your own life is an expectation of the game, and should not be looked at with frowning eyes. Because you have the OPTION to run and train, other people should keep that in mind that at any time, someone can run by with 8 extra mobs and if it kills you, oh well, you just made a friend who can help you corpse run.
Thats just silly.
Parascol said: Here is a question to ponder: when Metallica announces a new album, how many of you expect them to produce a poppy country hit that appeals to the masses?
This is literally the worst reference that you can make. Because almost all bands evolve over time to suit the masses. Metallica included.
You literally made an analogy that supports the side your arguing against.
Feyshtey said:No, we should not.
First, We don't have any ability to compromise. We arent making the game. VR is.
Second, We, the people who are embracing the core tenets that VR has stated are their goal, have every right to encourage a drive toward those more narrowly focused goals. We have watched developer after developer compromise over and over and over again hoping to get the maximum possible number of sales. We can pour over the list of 100's of titles already on the market that have done this and wholly failed to build a game we feel compelled to play. We are homeless. We cannot find a game in our niche. We are disillusioned and desperate.
What you're effectively saying is that there's a market (admittedly a minority) who want a certain kind of game, and that we are **** out of luck, and that we instead should let yet another title be added to the lengthy list of ones we don't want to play.
This is EXACTLY that all or nothing attitude that drives people away from this game. NOONE, let me say agian, NOONE is going to read "about pantheon" and expect WoW style gameplay. But that doesnt mean that the game should not have certain QoL features that will attract a larger market. Larger market means more money and a larger community which is exactly what a healthy MMO needs.
At the end of the day, it has NOTHING to do with what WE think. It has to do with how VR adapts to criticism of their game. If VR sticks to their guns and makes design choices based on the better development of their game and not the crying vocal minority than noone should have a problem. But the fact that someone can come onto these forums and say something like:
"hey, there should be some form of fast travel, even if its limited, and even if you have to be level 50 and have explored the world in order to use it!"
and they are met with responses like:
"if you want EASY GAMEPLAY theres tons of games already out there, dont waste your time"
I mean thats just silly. Then when said person brings up..."but wizards and druids are able to fast travel... why would that be ok but not another form..."
and are met with "thats how it was in EQ, deal with it, this isnt WoW"
How is any of that supportive to the overall health of the game and the community?
@Porygon - Go read the 1000 plus posts I've made here. Go count up the number of systems I've proposed that had nothing to do with EQ. Count the times I've said games had new things that I liked. Count the times I conceded points to people willing to have an intellectual debate rather than to insult me.
This notion that you have that if someone isnt 100% on board with changing everything EQ was must somehow also be a 100% EQ clone purist is false. Get over it.
Porygon said:Feyshtey said:No, we should not.
First, We don't have any ability to compromise. We arent making the game. VR is.
Second, We, the people who are embracing the core tenets that VR has stated are their goal, have every right to encourage a drive toward those more narrowly focused goals. We have watched developer after developer compromise over and over and over again hoping to get the maximum possible number of sales. We can pour over the list of 100's of titles already on the market that have done this and wholly failed to build a game we feel compelled to play. We are homeless. We cannot find a game in our niche. We are disillusioned and desperate.
What you're effectively saying is that there's a market (admittedly a minority) who want a certain kind of game, and that we are **** out of luck, and that we instead should let yet another title be added to the lengthy list of ones we don't want to play.
This is EXACTLY that all or nothing attitude that drives people away from this game. NOONE, let me say agian, NOONE is going to read "about pantheon" and expect WoW style gameplay. But that doesnt mean that the game should not have certain QoL features that will attract a larger market. Larger market means more money and a larger community which is exactly what a healthy MMO needs.
At the end of the day, it has NOTHING to do with what WE think. It has to do with how VR adapts to criticism of their game. If VR sticks to their guns and makes design choices based on the better development of their game and not the crying vocal minority than noone should have a problem. But the fact that someone can come onto these forums and say something like:
"hey, there should be some form of fast travel, even if its limited, and even if you have to be level 50 and have explored the world in order to use it!"
and they are met with responses like:
"if you want EASY GAMEPLAY theres tons of games already out there, dont waste your time"
I mean thats just silly. Then when said person brings up..."but wizards and druids are able to fast travel... why would that be ok but not another form..."
and are met with "thats how it was in EQ, deal with it, this isnt WoW"
How is any of that supportive to the overall health of the game and the community?
Porygon on other subjects I agree with you, but not on this one. Did you play EQ upon release? Did you play Vanguard? Brad freaking McQuaid is making his next MMO. Like OMG!! :) Anyone who played & enjoyed EQ at RELEASE and up until he departed (probably a year or so afterwards as well)... Anyone who played Vanguard and enjoyed it. If these people are still gaming, I know they're keeping an eye on Pantheon. Even if they aren't gaming or playing any MMO's right now, they are keeping an eye on Pantheon. These people want the type of MMO Brad and the teams he puts together, are known for creating. He has a certain flair and flavor that the current MMO's don't have. Also, Joppa... who is the Creative Director amongst other roles in the company, simply stated there are ZERO MMO's he wants to play. ZERO. NONE. That is why he is so passionate about Pantheon and the VR team is creating a game THEY want to play and be a part of. I, for one, hope they stick to their vision. No one here wants an EQ clone, the good parts, yes please! And Pantheon is looking FANTASTIC so far!
Porygon said:Parascol said: Here is a question to ponder: when Metallica announces a new album, how many of you expect them to produce a poppy country hit that appeals to the masses?This is literally the worst reference that you can make. Because almost all bands evolve over time to suit the masses. Metallica included.
You literally made an analogy that supports the side your arguing against.
Metallica is a pretty popular band in their own right, but they've always been a metal band. There have been some albums that were more poppy than others, but usually to the ire of their fanbase and they end up going back to their core "tenets", because that's what their fans expect. You don't really hear bands going full swing on genre too often. You wouldn't expect Metallica to release a raggae album, or go all Taylor Swift poppy in an attempt to appeal to literally EVERYONE. That was the spirit behind my analogy.
I've been listening to NOFX for 30 years and they haven't really changed. They've improved in a lot of ways, but their style hasn't really changed and they still tour the country every year and are millionairs, despite making music that doesn't appeal to the masses. The point is that the variety is good. Some days I want to listen to NOFX. Some days I want to listen to Nine Inch Nails. There's variety. There isn't much variety in mmo's. Every mmo is trying to be "poppy" Taylor Swift and appeal to the masses.
A niche game can still be very successful.
What I can say, Porygon, is that when I watch the recent streams in black rose keep I think to myself, "Holy cow, that's EverQuest". As the groups move through dungeons I find myself thinking, that will be a great place to park a group and pull mobs to, or that looks like a good safe spot to regroup. BRK is basically a classic EQ dungeon. Now there's probably a lot of things that will be added that will affect BRK and other dungeons to modernize them with new and improved systems, but in it's current form, which is the foundation upon which they will build on, is basically what you'd expect of an EQ dungeon. There is a reason why people are comparing this game to EverQuest and there's a reason why there's a certain level of expectation around that. The footage we have seen thus far is eerily remeniscent of EQ. So much so that the nostalgia actually sent tingles down my spine when I saw some of the first footage. Do you think that's coincidence based on who is making the game?
My own personal expectation is that it will be more like EQ than any of the other games currently out, based on what they've revealed, and based on how the game actually looks. No, it won't be exactly the same, but dang when I watch the streams it has EQ written all over it. Not every single system will be identical, but I bet it's going to be dang close along with some entirely new features and systems to boot. It's going to be great :)
The fact that someone who is so terrified of this old school mentality is just as stoked as I am when seeing the very same game play footage really excites me. All these things you argue against might just actually be fun to you, who knows? Or at least I'm assuming it excites you and that's why you're still here :)
Feyshtey said:The following is all coming from a guy with a full time job, plus living on and operating a stable with 30+ horses and doing all the project work associated with that kind of business (which is 1+ full time jobs alone), and having a kid in competitive travel sports (any parents out there that can relate, stay strong, it's worth it).
Nephele said:1) Ensuring that time-limited players don't feel like they're second-class citizens, and ...
To what degree?
There are some game experiences that require time, many of them being contiguous time. Hell, you can't bop into Call of Duty every once in a while and not be demoralized by the hordes with every unlock. When this game's central concept is group play then it stands to reason that if you don't work with groups you will not be "competitive" with them. Now, if you mean that this person with very limited time should be able to buy and sell in the marketplace and amass a fortune, sure. I can see that. If they then want to use that fortune to become a highly skilled crafter, gotcha, I'm on board. But if you mean this person should be able to cap their level, skills, spell ranks, gear, etc before the next expansion comes out while having only an hour a night to play? No. Sorry. I can't support that.
Honestly I find the mental exercise of planning what I will do in a game when I can log in to make the most of that time a really compelling metagame in itself. I'll probably never hit cap on anything. I won't be "competitive". And I dont particularly care. If I experience the content only in bursts, and only by playing with other players' 3rd and 4th and 11th alts, so be it. As long as the game experience is compelling and I am enjoying my time in it, I win.
2) Ensuring that we don't ram socialization down people's throats....
I agree that telling people to get with the program or quit is unproductive. However, I don't think it's inappropriate to set realistic expectations for what the game is. If you can't realistically accomplish notable content without cooperative play, telling a person that if they don't have the time or the will to find and cooperate with others they're not likely to find notable success is not mean or rude, its just honest. And telling people that they have to cooperate with 100's of other people and hope they are nice is extreme rhetoric equal to saying they should just quit.
3) Ensuring that people don't have to start at launch to get the best experience out of the game. I want for Pantheon to be a game where someone can come in years after launch and still be able to really enjoy everything the game has to offer, and not have to try and navigate a massive power/wealth gap just because they weren't there when it all started.
VR appears to understand this desire, given their thoughts on the Progeny system. Whether or not that system ever gets implimented remains to be seen. But I think a reality is that no matter what you do the game world will experience an evolution as time goes on. There's no way to have people advancing, obtaining wealth and power, and not have a downstream effect. There's also no realistic hope that you're going to have a steady stream of new players starting the game over years and years to a degree that the starting experience can be just like launch. Or more likely even close to it. There will be a power/wealth gap. While I agree with the concept you put forward, I don't see how it's possible to throttle that significantly without also throttling the feeling of accomplishment for those who have advanced equally.
4) Ensuring that people with different major focii are supported. The game shouldn't just cater to the PvE achiever crowd who wants to go out and kill bigger badder monsters all the time. It should have stuff for the explorer types, the roleplayers, the crafters, the socializers, even the pvpers - and ideally, those folks should all contribute meaningfully to making Terminus a better world. If the game favors one or two groups too much over the others, then a diverse community never really can form.
Again, I like the idea. But in practice its not so simple. The easiest example to identify is the balance between PVE and PVP. In order to balance play for PVP you must impact PVE, or you have to put in gimmicky artificial constraints. The reverse is also true. For the rest, what do you mean by "have stuff"? Should there be a massive world to explore? Absolutely. Should a person that doesn't like to group or even to gain levels be able to explore most (not all) dungeons? Absolutely not. Should they be able to gain gear equivalent or even near equivalent to those that group? No.
VR needs to define a core target audience (they have; groupers focused on PVE), and they need to build a solid game for that audience that will retain those core customers for the long haul. If they try to satisfy everyone fully (casual solo players, raiders, PVP players, etc.), purely by limitations of time and money they will release a game so dilluted in every category that no one is happy. It's happened time and time again with a company thinking they are the ones that are going to create the end-all, be-all of MMOs, and they end up with an inconsistent, clunky, cluge of a game that fizzles out after a year or so, if it even makes it to release before the developer goes bankrupt.
While I agree with your sentiment that we should not be hostile to those with new ideas, I think it's important that we understand and support the focus of VRs design. I'm not here because I want WoW or DAoC or and EQ clone, or anything else. I'm here because I did my homework lon ago on what VR's core concept was, and it's a concept I embrace. I don't want a PVP game, and they arent making one. I don't want a casual solo game, and they arent making one. I've played those kinds of games and I know those kinds of games are not for me. It doesn't mean those games suck, or that anyone that plays them is an idiot, or a carebear or anything else. It just means they made a game for a particular crowd, and I don't happen to be in that crowd. The problem is that no one has a game for the crowd I am in, and VR appears to be the only developer willing to give it a shot.
In the end, I don't want to see VR fall into the trap of so many others by building a game by committee. It's like going into the Ferari dealership and asking them to build one with an 8inch lift kit, 35inch tires, a truck bed and an economy electric engine. The inevitable outcome for all but 1 in 1 billion customers would be "WTF?!?".
Sorry but Feyshtey wins the internet with this post. May as well lock and close this whole thread. this is everything anyone needs to read.
Honestly, LOTS of people have LOTS of good points in here. No one is "right or wrong" everyone has an idea in their head as to what they want Pantheon to be. We are not going to get everything we want.
The reason I like Feyshtey's post is because it points out " embrace a game that requires grouping " etc. The basic game promise since day one.
There is no need to fight over things. I honestly hope VR/Brad/Joppa etc make the game They envisioned, and that I like what they came up with in the end.
Parascol said:The fact that someone who is so terrified of this old school mentality is just as stoked as I am when seeing the very same game play footage really excites me. All these things you argue against might just actually be fun to you, who knows? Or at least I'm assuming it excites you and that's why you're still here :)
Let's get this straight. I'm not actually terrified of the old school game. I know it's hard to fathom (not saying you in particular, but most people) but I actually care about that game from a long term perspective.
If you asked me to design a game I loved and wanted to play for 1 or 2 years... it would be an everquest clone. I love everything about EQ. But it had its day. Most players would not be able to deal with those mechanics.
And that's where I'm at now. I want a game designed that's going to last for years 5, 10, 15 years. I want pantheon to be the last mmo I have to learn. And by refusing to compromise with certain aspects of gaming (QoL wise) I feel you are going to create such a small unique community that you will not see a game that lasts as long as we want (at least lasts as long with a healthy population).
I'm honestly not asking for WoW Esque gameplay, but I think you can eliminate a lot of the tediousness in a game and still live by the old school values. Still make a difficult challenging game.
At the end of the day I'm playing pantheon. I just hope there's 999,999 others playing with me. That's all.
Kastor said:Porygon on other subjects I agree with you, but not on this one. Did you play EQ upon release? Did you play Vanguard? Brad freaking McQuaid is making his next MMO. Like OMG!! :) Anyone who played & enjoyed EQ at RELEASE and up until he departed (probably a year or so afterwards as well)... Anyone who played Vanguard and enjoyed it. If these people are still gaming, I know they're keeping an eye on Pantheon. Even if they aren't gaming or playing any MMO's right now, they are keeping an eye on Pantheon. These people want the type of MMO Brad and the teams he puts together, are known for creating. He has a certain flair and flavor that the current MMO's don't have. Also, Joppa... who is the Creative Director amongst other roles in the company, simply stated there are ZERO MMO's he wants to play. ZERO. NONE. That is why he is so passionate about Pantheon and the VR team is creating a game THEY want to play and be a part of. I, for one, hope they stick to their vision. No one here wants an EQ clone, the good parts, yes please! And Pantheon is looking FANTASTIC so far!
I bet if you could get an honest answer from Brad. He would admit that vanguard was indeed a failure.
But also, as much as they say they do, no mmo developer wants 100k players If they could have 1,000k.
I think that a game largely based on EQ is amazing. And I've said it in other replies... I'm not looking for a modern mmo wow clone... that's why I'm not playing wow, or rift, or ff14 etc..
But I think you can make a challenging old school game and also eliminate a lot of the tediousness from it.
Porygon said:Parascol said:The fact that someone who is so terrified of this old school mentality is just as stoked as I am when seeing the very same game play footage really excites me. All these things you argue against might just actually be fun to you, who knows? Or at least I'm assuming it excites you and that's why you're still here :)
Let's get this straight. I'm not actually terrified of the old school game. I know it's hard to fathom (not saying you in particular, but most people) but I actually care about that game from a long term perspective.
If you asked me to design a game I loved and wanted to play for 1 or 2 years... it would be an everquest clone. I love everything about EQ. But it had its day. Most players would not be able to deal with those mechanics.
And that's where I'm at now. I want a game designed that's going to last for years 5, 10, 15 years. I want pantheon to be the last mmo I have to learn. And by refusing to compromise with certain aspects of gaming (QoL wise) I feel you are going to create such a small unique community that you will not see a game that lasts as long as we want (at least lasts as long with a healthy population).
I'm honestly not asking for WoW Esque gameplay, but I think you can eliminate a lot of the tediousness in a game and still live by the old school values. Still make a difficult challenging game.
At the end of the day I'm playing pantheon. I just hope there's 999,999 others playing with me. That's all.
Well, you aren't designing a game, VR is and it seems pretty obvious to me that they want the game to feel a heck of a lot like everquest. The game you said you yourself would design.
Druid and Wizards will be porting. CR is a thing from what I understand. Druids will have speed buffs. Shaman will slow mobs. Enchanters will buff mana regen and cc mobs. Mobs are social. Trains exist.
You can see all this info on the website, and you can see it play out in pre alpha 3 coverage. I mean, the classes are basically the same as EQ with different spell names and additional abilities and things to make them more interesting. But wait, there is more! Bards and Necromancers are also on the horizon!
How can people NOT feel like they are getting an EQ successor? Everything about the game reeks of EQ, but better. Do you think this is by accident? Can you blame the diehard EQ fans for feeling encroached on when people come in and complain they will need a wizard to transport them somewhere when the class abilities are up on the page for all to see?
Do you think at this rate VR is trying to capture the masses? I've had several people tell me they wont play it based on the graphics and auto attack tab target combat alone. Does it seem like VR is trying to be anything other than a niche game? It took them like nearly 4 years just to get this far. Do you think it is realistic for them to drastically pivot at this point?
They have already said they plan to include some limited convenience features. What more can they do? How easy should it all be? My guess is that they will try to strike a balance without making it so easy players get bored and leave in the first 3 months.
But jeez man, to act like EQ purists are somehow detracting from what the game should be when they respond with telling others that's how EQ was, isn't really an honest assessment either when the game is practically EQ 3.0 already. What other response is there when the classes are the same as EQ? Well yeah, you'll need a wizard to port, because that's how EQ was and ALSO how Pantheon will be. Take a gander at the class pages to see.
Syrif said:Parascol - good points you mention. Anyway, I'm pretty excited to play Pantheon :) The streams are looking soooo good <3
Indeed! And I hope that some of those resistant to these tried and true concepts give it a shot. I will bet many will find themselves having a blast.
Parascol said:But jeez man, to act like EQ purists are somehow detracting from what the game should be when they respond with telling others that's how EQ was, isn't really an honest assessment either when the game is practically EQ 3.0 already. What other response is there when the classes are the same as EQ? Well yeah, you'll need a wizard to port, because that's how EQ was and ALSO how Pantheon will be. Take a gander at the class pages to see.
You can make a game that has a large, heavy resemblance to EQ (obviously, since that's what they are doing) but also remove some of the inconvenience of EQ.
Having an auction house won't drastically change the core gameplay.
Having ways to fast travel beyond just wizards and druids won't "drastically" change the core gameplay.
Having "raid instances" won't affect the core gameplay.
These 3 things are some of the most recent discussions that have come about. If you made all 3 of these changes you can still have a game that is largely based upon EQ. I don't look at any of these features and think that they defined EQ. The group centric gameplay (which will still exist), the threat of death penalty (still exists), the style of grinding vs quest hubs still exists. You don't lose the core values of EQ by making some changes, but you do create a world that is most likely going to entice a much larger audience.
(Note, I'm not trying to debate those topics above as they have their own threads, just more so picking topics where you can compromise between eq and modern mmo's and not lose the core values of the game).