Naunet said:Syrif said:Anyway, what I'm getting at is if someone wants instant gratification with less depth, then I mentioned some games that someone can already get that gaming experience in. I don't see anything insulting in stating that.Because you're being deliberately disingenuous and setting up this false narrative that people who dislike a couple aspects of old school MMOs like EQ automatically only want "instant gratification with less depth". That's not true. Stop saying it.
Just curious - what are the "couple of aspects" you are referring to? As I've said, a *mostly* updated old-school type mmo with some needed changes is ideal. It's not a couple aspects that I'm getting at though, it is much broader in vision. Pantheon onward :)
Syrif said:Naunet said:Syrif said:Anyway, what I'm getting at is if someone wants instant gratification with less depth, then I mentioned some games that someone can already get that gaming experience in. I don't see anything insulting in stating that.Because you're being deliberately disingenuous and setting up this false narrative that people who dislike a couple aspects of old school MMOs like EQ automatically only want "instant gratification with less depth". That's not true. Stop saying it.
Just curious - what's not true about it? As I've said, a *mostly* updated old-school type mmo with some needed changes is ideal. It's not a couple aspects that I'm getting at though, it is much broader in vision. Pantheon onward :)
A lot (I would wager most) of people who played EQ in 1999 HATED naked corpse runs. Hated having to stay up until 2 am and get up 4 hours later to go to work the next day or risk losing all their stuff. People hated 40 minute boat rides. A lot of people hated EC tunnel spam. Why did they play and love EQ? Because despite these things, they still loved the game and tolerated its imperfections.
There seems to be a small but vocal community that thinks if you don't literally want EQ vanilla with updated graphics you need to go play WoW instead. It's quite frankly absurd to suggest that someone who doesn't want this to be a 100% EQ clone should go play another game.
Snrub- I have yet to see someone who wants a 100% EQ clone. Have you? Anyway, I would wager a lot of people miss the depth and challenge that is lacking in the mmo market such as a naked corpse runs. I LOVE and miss that type of a game :)
Exactly Kastor. There was ample time to recover a corpse. There is so much that we can update in Pantheon it's amazing :)
Flapp said:Watemper said:Flapp said:
And people would differ from you on the corpse run,like me. I never really cared about exp loss. I remember falling asleep at my computer and had a bad bind spot in highhold pass and waking up to 50+ corpses and lost 2 - 3 levels. Did I get angry I lost soo much EXP..Well yeah. But I won't forget that moment when I saw my corpse, out of the pile of all my naked corpses, that had my gear. The sense of relief I had when I saw all my stuff I worked hard for...yes..even my banded( I was a Paladin) was still there. Games that you can lose all your stuff in, not by getting hacked, but by mechanics is in play, your mentality completly changes and you start to pay attention way more. Take the diablo series. They have a hardcore mode where if you die once...you lose your character. Now people mitigate this with groups of friends and power lvling techniques, but man when you lose a character from that you get really pissed...but also the time spent playing that character was really enjoyable because of that risk vs reward type of thing.
Not saying you should lose your character if you die...but there is a threshold of how immersed people can get into a game because of the risk vs reward mentality and honestly just losing exp isn't going to be enough imo. That is like a misquito bite to a lot of the old school genre. Now losing your hard earned gear, which happened to me twice, sucked. But for some reason I kept playing and the community was great and giving my hami-downs. In fact, when word got around that I lost my gear from guildies and people I knew from other guilds, I was packing better gear that what I originally had after a few weeks thanks to community.
And the only way a community can do someting like that is if you make the enviroment and penalties harsh enough. Not insanely harsh. but harsh enough.
I don't want Perma death. I find the very idea of perma-death really ignorant. Comcast goes down at the wrong time and I lose everything and it wasn't even My fault. Nope. Dumb.
VR already said, there is ZERO threat of losing your gear. You don't have to go get the corpse if you don't want, but there won't be corpse rot.
Falling asleep at the keyboard is something I have never done. I find the very idea of losing 3-4 levels because you bound where you could die and fell asleep, just as dumb as perma death. I bound in safe spots, even if they were inconvenient. I never fell asleep at the keyboard. When I get tired, I log out and go to bed. It's really not that hard to do.
The Reason I say I don't like corpse runs is because I have been in groups on EQ where a pull goes bad in Lower Guk and I die (cleric ) and the group disbands, logs out and leaves me to get my own corpse. I was pretty skilled, so with invis pots and IVU, I could always get back to my corpse, but people today aren't as friendly as they were back in the day. Hope the community here will be different. But honestly, using the boards to judge people, there are some real douchebags on these forums. Hell, I am sure some people think I am a douchebag. Oh well, they will see in game I really am a nice person.
Lol...never said that I wanted permadeath...was just giving an extreme example.
Also guess what...you learn the names of those people who disbanded and never group with them again. That simple. Also, you don't have to rely on your group at getting your corpse. You have friends and guildies. Also, groups that were near your camp you can ask if they can clear over to you and get your corpse and rez it. I have had that done many times. I have had a multidude of friends and guildies travel across the content to go into sneak mode as a rogue or get a necro to summon my corpse. Also, all the clerics I befriended that were on would come to rez me if they were close by. It's called community. Happens to strengthen the harsher the conditions get for some reason.
As a Paladin I would get asked to go into the depth of dungeons to get peoples corspes like in befallen and unrest sometimes, because I had the keys, when they fell down the dumb well, or died in the basement. I had a druid friend who would port and help people get their corpse back when they died and wern't bound close enough. Did I meet assholes who trained me and got me killed? Yeah, but I also met 10 people who went out of there way to help. I always find the more ways a game can make life harder, the more ways there are that people can do acts of kindness and help out.
While corpse runs serve as an efficient catalyst for loss aversion I'm not convinced that there aren't better ways to achieve the same thing without forcing players down a linear path of recovery. Holding our gear hostage basically means we have no choice but to do X (retrieve corpse) before we can continue to progress. To that end, I would propose:
1) Every death results in a loss of 15% XP, with the possibility to de-level.
2) Finding your corpse will grant you 10% XP. (Corpses last 2 hours.)
3) Being rezzed will restore X% of XP. (10-13% depending on spell quality.)
I try to imagine scenarios where players gain entry to areas that require enhanced acclimation, player abilities, access keys, or a combination of each. Death in these areas are extra punitive if players don't have a reliable way of returning to their corpse. So imagine you have the summoner who builds a raft or bridge … or the rogue that drops rope, the warrior that bashes a wall, the ranger that helps you fly over a chasm, the druid that grants acclimation bonuses or calms a storm. If you die after navigating past these obstacles you're at least semi-reliant on having those people in your group to return to that same location. Add in access keys (they won't all be as simple as the first key in HC) as an additional layer and now there are a bunch of situations where people can die in an area that could be extremely difficult to return to. This sounds like a really stressful situation to be in … whether you are the player relying on others, or the player that others are relying on. Player interdependence is a beautiful thing but I think we're pushing it too far if someone can end up being naked for an extended period of time because they can't recreate the exact set of variables that allowed them access to a given area.
To be clear, I'm okay with the idea of "Death in these areas are extra punitive if players don't have a reliable way of returning to their corpse." If players can't get back to their corpse then they suffer additional XP loss. That's fine. You adventured deep into a dungeon, bashed a few walls, took a raft down the stream filled with piranhas, and explored an area that is usually locked. The stakes are high in this situation because if you end up wiping there is a chance you'll lose a significantly higher chunk of XP than you would in an area where you could reliably return to your corpse. That seems fair and I think most players would be willing to push through in this scenario despite the added risk. Attaching item loss to corpse recovery changes things, though, as it feels like the ultimate "artificial limiter." What happens when our gear has acclimation bonuses on it? We meet the cold threshold with our situational gear but then we die and lose it … how are we supposed to get back to our gear? I'm sure this aspect of the death penalty resonates with former EQ players but we need to remember that Terminus is going to be much more dangerous than Norrath ever was. Penalty or not, the current iteration of "corpse run" doesn't sit well with me. There are too many implications that will need to be compensated for with this kind of penalty and it really gets in the way of:
We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items.
I would rather see the penalty shift toward increased experience loss (that can cause you to de-level) and maybe gold / deity favor loss than forcing players to return to the scene of the crime which feels linear, artificial, and limiting. Maybe it doesn't seem like any of those things if you have a ton of experience playing EQ but as an MMO veteran who has never dealt with this exact type of penalty I can tell you that I think it will feel like all of those. I think about the world being designed with this type of penalty in mind and it really inhibits the potential of what I think is possible. Is this truly the best way to handle the death penalty or are we only doing it this way because it's the EQ way? There is a balance that needs to be struck when it comes to creating truly challenging content and punishing people for mistakes. My understanding is that EQ focused way more on the latter than the former. I hope we can achieve a healthy middle ground but it's going to require give and take. I consider the following excerpt from "What is Pantheon?" and can't help but think that there is a better way to go about this.
"Because Pantheon values the paradigm of great risk vs. great reward, the player will always be encouraged to push themselves out the door and to embrace exploration, adventure, danger and the community of players alongside them."
oneADseven said:While corpse runs serve as an efficient catalyst for loss aversion I'm not convinced that there aren't better ways to achieve the same thing without forcing players down a linear path of recovery. To that end, I would propose:
- Every death results in a loss of 15% XP, with the possibility to de-level.
- Finding your corpse will grant you 10% XP. (Corpses last 2 hours.)
- Being rezzed will restore X% of XP. (10-13% depending on spell quality.)
I try to imagine scenarios where players gain entry to areas that require enhanced acclimation, player abilities, access keys, or a combination of each. Death in these areas are extra punitive if players don't have a reliable way of returning to their corpse. So imagine you have the summoner who builds a raft or bridge … or the rogue that drops rope, the warrior that bashes a wall, the ranger that helps you fly over a chasm, the druid that grants acclimation bonuses or calms a storm. If you die after navigating past these obstacles you're at least semi-reliant on having those people in your group to return to that same location. Add in access keys (they won't all be as simple as the first key in HC) as an additional layer and now there are a bunch of situations where people can die in an area that could be extremely difficult to return to. This sounds like a really stressful situation to be in … whether you are the player relying on others, or the player that others are relying on. Player interdependence is a beautiful thing but I think we're pushing it too far if someone can end up being naked for an extended period of time because they can't recreate the exact set of variables that allowed them access to a given area.
To be clear, I'm okay with the idea of "Death in these areas are extra punitive if players don't have a reliable way of returning to their corpse." If players can't get back to their corpse then they suffer additional XP loss. That's fine. You adventured deep into a dungeon, bashed a few walls, took a raft down the stream filled with piranhas, and explored an area that is usually locked. The stakes are high in this situation because if you end up wiping there is a chance you'll lose a significantly higher chunk of XP than you would in an area where you could reliably return to your corpse. That seems fair and I think most players would be willing to push through in this scenario despite the added risk. Attaching item loss to corpse recovery changes things, though, as it feels like the ultimate "artificial limiter." What happens when our gear has acclimation bonuses on it? We meet the cold threshold with our situational gear but then we die and lose it … how are we supposed to get back to our gear? I'm sure this aspect of the death penalty resonates with former EQ players but we need to remember that Terminus is going to be much more dangerous than Norrath ever was. Penalty or not, the current iteration of "corpse run" doesn't sit well with me. There are too many implications that will need to be compensated for with this kind of penalty and it really gets in the way of:
- 7.0 Will there be a ‘death penalty’?
We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items.
I would rather see the penalty shift toward increased experience loss (that can cause you to de-level) and maybe gold / deity favor loss than forcing players to return to the scene of the crime which feels linear, artificial, and limiting. Maybe it doesn't seem like any of those things if you have a ton of experience playing EQ but as an MMO veteran who has never dealt with this exact type of penalty I can tell you that I think it will feel like all of those. I think about the world being designed with this type of penalty in mind and it really inhibits the potential of what I think is possible. Is this truly the best way to handle the death penalty or are we only doing it this way because it's the EQ way? There is a balance that needs to be struck when it comes to creating truly challenging content and punishing people for mistakes. My understanding is that EQ focused way more on the latter than the former. I hope we can achieve a healthy middle ground but it's going to require give and take. I consider the following excerpt from "What is Pantheon?" and can't help but think that there is a better way to go about this.
"Because Pantheon values the paradigm of great risk vs. great reward, the player will always be encouraged to push themselves out the door and to embrace exploration, adventure, danger and the community of players alongside them."
Yeah, you bring up a lot of good points with how they are making the game. Will be kind of hard in those areas.
Still your significant exp lose doesn't do it on immersion for me. Maybe it is an incentive to not die, but the immersion won't be there. There are several MMO's out there that you only lost exp in and my immersion was still gone from that game. So I don't think exp loss is the only way to go. Faction hits aren't really a immersion breaker either. Would just irritate me is all. Will have to think more on this topic. But maybe only the most daring adventurers should be the ones to see all the secrets and if people are too scared to go there in fear of losing their stuff then that is there choice. This to me isn't content blocking, but content that is just too hard or scary to them to adventure into.
Anyways, I will have to think about if it is too severe and what other alternatives, other than just exp loss can there be.
I just think that XP loss can be tweaked to deliver the right sting and sense of loss aversion. Let's assume that a good group can earn 5% XP per hour at max level. If each death costs 15% XP that's a 3 hour penalty that you will have to pay back. If you find your corpse you have 10% returned which reduces the penalty down to 1 hour. I would be in favor of something like this because it arms players with an option. Your first priority should always be getting back to your corpse because it reduces the penalty by a substantial amount. If you lose key members of your group and that isn't possible you at least have the option to find another group and work off the XP somewhere else. You wouldn't be forced to recreate the exact set of variables that allowed you access to a prior area where your corpse lies (remember … acclimation buffs, player abilities, access keys) -- instead, you can chalk up your (increased) loss and go on about your business.
You don't have to worry about staying up extra late because your group is absolutely counting on you as the sole key-holder to get them back to the other side of that door. The death stings because you know you're eating a full loss. There is no reason at all that XP couldn't be a highly impactful resource in a game built around risk vs reward and inevitable death. Losing that extra 10% should feel meaningful and if it doesn't then the entire spectrum of risk vs reward is already skewed to begin with. I understand that we are supposed to be punished for death … just like we are supposed to be encouraged to explore and adventure. If each death means that my character is held hostage until X, that feels sketchy. I am hoping for a really challenging game where the world is literally trying to kill you ... death shouldn't be the end of the world, it should be a bitter reality. We should always focus on good death prevention habits and keep a constant eye on that XP buffer as it truly serves as our lifeline when it comes to taking risks.
I would rather see Terminus lean more towards challenge/surprise than punishment when it comes to playing a difficult game (punishment is fine … just make it XP based) … especially considering how easy it is for a train to sweep by and decimate your group. You can increase the XP loss to 20% or more if that's what it takes but this notion that we must absolutely return to our corpse to get our gear is the thing of nightmares. I can only imagine how many times people called off work (lack of sleep) because they felt compelled to do a CR while there were enough active people available to help them. Imagine EQ with a truesight disposition that prevents solo players from being able to sneak around and safely drag corpses in areas that are designed for groups and raids. All those recoveries that involved a single player sneaking around and dragging the corpse back … poof. I see this argument of immersion as a factor ... I guess I just don't understand. What exactly are you trying to immerse yourself into? An EQ redux? How is it immersive to think that your character died and now you have to get back to your corpse ... naked? In a truly challenging game?
Syrif said:Well, not to be rude to anyone, but I keep seeing threads or comments that express a desire to "ease down" gameplay. Since these recent threads keep coming up and have **not** themselves been locked, then I will write of my reminder of the need for an updated old-school gameplay; I assume my thread will not be locked either. The obvious one is that we all know the mmo market is entirely dominated by mmo's at the moment that have greatly pursued the "ease down" approach. This option is widely available for players who want that type of gameplay - go play there if that is what you want. Honestly though, in my opinion, you will be playing games that have been on a downward spiral (at least subscription-wise such as WoW and EQ-Live).
Another one I read about is some people not wanting "EC tunnel vendors" where the player devotes his or her time to selling and purchasing items - from what I read some people want the "bot system," as exists in WoW and EQ-Live. Again, if that is what you want - go play those games. Do I think it makes sense to make another "EC tunnel"? No, I do not. Do I think it makes sense to create an updated market area for traders that requires player interaction with eachother again? Yes, of course I do. The bot system is not the answer though. That already exists in WoW, EQ-Live, and others. We need a game that is not like those ones.
I've also read threads where ease of travel is made, well, easier. Again, that already exists on a couple of mmo's that I am aware of. They are called WoW and EQ-Live. The importance of player interaction regarding travel is essential. In old-school gameplay, some classes had travel abilities that were useful in certain scenarios. Other travel abilities were just for travelling to other continents. Travel to another continent took a little time. Why? Well, it is another continent - that's why. Maybe a group member needed to be picked up there or maybe a group had to work on a different quest piece. If you want instant travel available to everyone akin to WoW and EQ-Live, then you have that option to go play and experience that. The idea of unique travel experiences is for the community to engage with each other in a meaningful way.
Some other threads I have read talk about how some people think they have lives now. Really quickly, we had lives in the old-school days too. We had jobs, commitments, and obligations then just as we do now. We adults and kiddos could play a challenging game then - why couldn't we do so again now? I know I have more time to play now versus then. Others may not, but that also hasn't changed. I know people who are retired now who have an abundance of time to play, but unfortunately there is not a single mmo out there that requires hardly any time or thought. Not much of a challenge. Not much of a "risk-vs-reward" exists at the moment.
Another one I read is having a small death penalty, maybe not one at all. WoW and EQ-Live have this system - if someone desires that experience, then those games are available to you. Those games have been losing subscribers in large numbers, but hey, some people want that gameplay and I respect that. Those games are widely available to them. As for Pantheon, we need a game that has a moderately challenging death penalty again. If you wan't to forego the requirements to recover some of the experience lost, then you can do so and recover the experience via other means. If you want to recover substantial experience lost, then that will require some work. It did not break my back in old-school gameplay and an updated version will not do so now either.
I also read about corpse runs being unecessary. If you don't like the idea of recovering your corpse with items, then WoW and EQ-Live are just a tad around the corner to you. Corpse runs sometimes utilized community interaction then, and corpse recoveries may do so again now. And yes, not having food or water needs to have a minor penalty like reduced walking speed from fatigue or no health/mana regen or something similar. The incentive is to well, buy some food and water. Or, ask a player to forage or summon some food for you.
What do lack of corpse runs, no death penalty, easy travel, and no risk-vs-reward all have in common? They all exist in other games already. We need something that doesn' exist right now. Anyway, what are your thoughts on why you think an updated old-school gameplay (and mechanisms) are necessary for Pantheon now given that an updated, challenging mmo is currently absent from the market?
edit: When I say people can play those games it’s not meant as an insult. Rather, it’s a real option that people have. There needs to be a variety of mmo’s and gameplay available to people though.
Making a game that has a bazaar or an AH does not make it like the other games simply has a function or mechanic like another game, which is completely different, and honestly I hated the EC tunnel function all it did was cuase a ton of spam, couldn't hardly read what people were selling, due to other players spamming the message off the window to makesure you could see theirs instead. Honestly there were some good things about it, and honestly if it were me I would say you have it like eq is the sense it is a trading zone, but have npc merchants that sells your goods for a fee like a normal ah, kind of like eso I guess but much better put together, this way these areas are populated, keeps the world alive and make lfg's a good spot without all the spam.
And as for instant travel eq had this back in vanilla. And made a great way for people to meet each other back than as well, now I can agree some forms of travel I don't want, but some I don't mind, like I don't want it to where is I can't find a porter and by foot would take me 45 minutes to get there, I simply did that for years, don't want to experience it again, I guess I simply just did it more than you cuase I know basically everyone I walk to hated the run you had to do from high pass hold to Everfrost, if you. Couldnt find a druid. So again some forms I'm okay with, but instant travel cept from our porters I wouldn't want.
Now corpse runs I have to agree with it is nesscary and honestly they already have it to where looting your stuff is a ton easier so honestly isn't that big of a deal, and honestly a function like this should be easy to get used to and if anything will make players play smarter, and safer.
oneADseven said:I just think that XP loss can be tweaked to deliver the right sting and sense of loss aversion. Let's assume that a good group can earn 5% XP per hour at max level. If each death costs 15% XP that's a 3 hour penalty that you will have to pay back. If you find your corpse you have 10% returned which reduces the penalty down to 1 hour. I would be in favor of something like this because it arms players with an option. Your first priority should always be getting back to your corpse because it reduces the penalty by a substantial amount. If you lose key members of your group and that isn't possible you at least have the option to find another group and work off the XP somewhere else. You wouldn't be forced to recreate the exact set of variables that allowed you access to a prior area where your corpse lies (remember … acclimation buffs, player abilities, access keys) -- instead, you can chalk up your (increased) loss and go on about your business.
You don't have to worry about staying up extra late because your group is absolutely counting on you as the sole key-holder to get them back to the other side of that door. The death stings because you know you're eating a full loss. There is no reason at all that XP couldn't be a highly impactful resource in a game built around risk vs reward and inevitable death. Losing that extra 10% should feel meaningful and if it doesn't then the entire spectrum of risk vs reward is already skewed to begin with. I understand that we are supposed to be punished for death … just like we are supposed to be encouraged to explore and adventure. If each death means that my character is held hostage until X, that feels sketchy. I am hoping for a really challenging game where the world is literally trying to kill you ... death shouldn't be the end of the world, it should be a bitter reality. We should always focus on good death prevention habits and keep a constant eye on that XP buffer as it truly serves as our lifeline when it comes to taking risks.
I would rather see Terminus lean more towards challenge/surprise than punishment when it comes to playing a difficult game (punishment is fine … just make it XP based) … especially considering how easy it is for a train to sweep by and decimate your group. You can increase the XP loss to 20% or more if that's what it takes but this notion that we must absolutely return to our corpse to get our gear is the thing of nightmares. I can only imagine how many times people called off work (lack of sleep) because they felt compelled to do a CR while there were enough active people available to help them. Imagine EQ with a truesight disposition that prevents solo players from being able to sneak around and safely drag corpses in areas that other designed for groups and raids. All those recoveries that involved a single player sneaking around and dragging the corpse back … poof. I see this argument of immersion as a factor ... I guess I just don't understand. What exactly are you trying to immerse yourself into? An EQ redux? How is it immersive to think that your character died and now you have to get back to your corpse ... naked? In a truly challenging game?
Don't agree about the significant exp loss sorry. Just remembered that by doing soo much you will alienate a lot of people who love hard games and die a lot because they like to have fun. By significant exp loss you will make it to where you have to have an elite group that means business in order to gain exp more than you die. I love the casual group setting and if I am going to be losing a play session of exp on one wipe, then unless rezing gives a signifcant amount of % back that will just be a pain. Don't think there will be a balance of exp loss that will even give immersion more so than just piss people off and make a more toxic enviorment. Actually, I know for a fact that this will make a more toxic enviroment. With corpse runs people are willing to help, but if you wipe a group on accident or just aren't performing well that night then toxic behavior will be very prevelant.
I generally agree with OneADseven.
Corpse runs should be an option for significantly reducing xp loss but should not be necessary to avoid punitive loss of xp.
Without a corpse run death should sting but should not result in permanent loss of items or excessive xp loss. I will not suggest percentages that I consider excessive. I will note that some areas will be very hard to get to so corpse runs will not be feasible once a group breaks up, and the plan is to have enough people on a server to make it feel like a living world but not so many that it feels overcrowded and impersonal. Success with this goal implies that one will not always be able to quickly get a group to do a corpse run.
You know for a fact that this will create a more toxic environment? That's really interesting because my experience in FFXI was the exact opposite. It was by far the least toxic community I have ever seen in an MMO. There was no need for elite groups ... you just practiced good death prevention habits and played smart. You build up a buffer over time and eventually you'll have some breathing room when it's time to take some risks. I think a corpse rot feature would be great for this game because it creates a sense of urgency to get back to your corpse. I don't want to see solo players cheese dragging or abilities that allow you to summon corpses to the zoneline. If there are tools that allow you to circumvent the corpse run then how effective is it, really? It feels linear, artificial, and contrived. It feels forced ... in an open world game, where freedom is prevalent. And maybe that's a design goal ... offer this huge beautiful open world, and when you die, that freedom is stripped. I'm not a fan. XP can be as precious of a resource as VR wants to make it. Just to be clear ... I am not arguing against corpse runs. I think they are a great mechanic, but I feel that corpse rot is even better. I would rather see gear removed from our corpses and replaced with a sizeable chunk of XP that will disappear if our corpse rots. If that's going to break the game or ruin immersion then maybe someone is too rigid with how much they want EQ to be emulated.
Riahuf22 said:Syrif said:Well, not to be rude to anyone, but I keep seeing threads or comments that express a desire to "ease down" gameplay. Since these recent threads keep coming up and have **not** themselves been locked, then I will write of my reminder of the need for an updated old-school gameplay; I assume my thread will not be locked either. The obvious one is that we all know the mmo market is entirely dominated by mmo's at the moment that have greatly pursued the "ease down" approach. This option is widely available for players who want that type of gameplay - go play there if that is what you want. Honestly though, in my opinion, you will be playing games that have been on a downward spiral (at least subscription-wise such as WoW and EQ-Live).
Another one I read about is some people not wanting "EC tunnel vendors" where the player devotes his or her time to selling and purchasing items - from what I read some people want the "bot system," as exists in WoW and EQ-Live. Again, if that is what you want - go play those games. Do I think it makes sense to make another "EC tunnel"? No, I do not. Do I think it makes sense to create an updated market area for traders that requires player interaction with eachother again? Yes, of course I do. The bot system is not the answer though. That already exists in WoW, EQ-Live, and others. We need a game that is not like those ones.
I've also read threads where ease of travel is made, well, easier. Again, that already exists on a couple of mmo's that I am aware of. They are called WoW and EQ-Live. The importance of player interaction regarding travel is essential. In old-school gameplay, some classes had travel abilities that were useful in certain scenarios. Other travel abilities were just for travelling to other continents. Travel to another continent took a little time. Why? Well, it is another continent - that's why. Maybe a group member needed to be picked up there or maybe a group had to work on a different quest piece. If you want instant travel available to everyone akin to WoW and EQ-Live, then you have that option to go play and experience that. The idea of unique travel experiences is for the community to engage with each other in a meaningful way.
Some other threads I have read talk about how some people think they have lives now. Really quickly, we had lives in the old-school days too. We had jobs, commitments, and obligations then just as we do now. We adults and kiddos could play a challenging game then - why couldn't we do so again now? I know I have more time to play now versus then. Others may not, but that also hasn't changed. I know people who are retired now who have an abundance of time to play, but unfortunately there is not a single mmo out there that requires hardly any time or thought. Not much of a challenge. Not much of a "risk-vs-reward" exists at the moment.
Another one I read is having a small death penalty, maybe not one at all. WoW and EQ-Live have this system - if someone desires that experience, then those games are available to you. Those games have been losing subscribers in large numbers, but hey, some people want that gameplay and I respect that. Those games are widely available to them. As for Pantheon, we need a game that has a moderately challenging death penalty again. If you wan't to forego the requirements to recover some of the experience lost, then you can do so and recover the experience via other means. If you want to recover substantial experience lost, then that will require some work. It did not break my back in old-school gameplay and an updated version will not do so now either.
I also read about corpse runs being unecessary. If you don't like the idea of recovering your corpse with items, then WoW and EQ-Live are just a tad around the corner to you. Corpse runs sometimes utilized community interaction then, and corpse recoveries may do so again now. And yes, not having food or water needs to have a minor penalty like reduced walking speed from fatigue or no health/mana regen or something similar. The incentive is to well, buy some food and water. Or, ask a player to forage or summon some food for you.
What do lack of corpse runs, no death penalty, easy travel, and no risk-vs-reward all have in common? They all exist in other games already. We need something that doesn' exist right now. Anyway, what are your thoughts on why you think an updated old-school gameplay (and mechanisms) are necessary for Pantheon now given that an updated, challenging mmo is currently absent from the market?
edit: When I say people can play those games it’s not meant as an insult. Rather, it’s a real option that people have. There needs to be a variety of mmo’s and gameplay available to people though.
Making a game that has a bazaar or an AH does not make it like the other games simply has a function or mechanic like another game, which is completely different, and honestly I hated the EC tunnel function all it did was cuase a ton of spam, couldn't hardly read what people were selling, due to other players spamming the message off the window to makesure you could see theirs instead. Honestly there were some good things about it, and honestly if it were me I would say you have it like eq is the sense it is a trading zone, but have npc merchants that sells your goods for a fee like a normal ah, kind of like eso I guess but much better put together, this way these areas are populated, keeps the world alive and make lfg's a good spot without all the spam.
And as for instant travel eq had this back in vanilla. And made a great way for people to meet each other back than as well, now I can agree some forms of travel I don't want, but some I don't mind, like I don't want it to where is I can't find a porter and by foot would take me 45 minutes to get there, I simply did that for years, don't want to experience it again, I guess I simply just did it more than you cuase I know basically everyone I walk to hated the run you had to do from high pass hold to Everfrost, if you. Couldnt find a druid. So again some forms I'm okay with, but instant travel cept from our porters I wouldn't want.
Now corpse runs I have to agree with it is nesscary and honestly they already have it to where looting your stuff is a ton easier so honestly isn't that big of a deal, and honestly a function like this should be easy to get used to and if anything will make players play smarter, and safer.
See I disagree with your fast travel. The run wasn't the tough part. It was dying along the way. I am pretty sure you won't win on the fast travel argument as they said it will be meaningful and the world will feel bigger. However, the EQ classic instant travel was porting with druids and wizards...which I actually liked and am fine with.
For the AH part I did like the idea of EC tunnel, but didn't like the spam. I would like to see some sort of information board with names and what people are buying. If they log off then the items disappear from the board. However, if they are are logged on then they will re-appear. Also, if you go afk the items disappear. I think that is the direction we should explore.
Watemper said:Don't agree about the significant exp loss sorry. Just remembered that by doing soo much you will alienate a lot of people who love hard games and die a lot because they like to have fun. By significant exp loss you will make it to where you have to have an elite group that means business in order to gain exp more than you die. I love the casual group setting and if I am going to be losing a play session of exp on one wipe, then unless rezing gives a signifcant amount of % back that will just be a pain. Don't think there will be a balance of exp loss that will even give immersion more so than just piss people off and make a more toxic enviorment. Actually, I know for a fact that this will make a more toxic enviroment. With corpse runs people are willing to help, but if you wipe a group on accident or just aren't performing well that night then toxic behavior will be very prevelant.
In FFXI the exp lose could be 2-3 hours worth of work and the community was not toxic about it. Pople would go out of their way to try to get a raise for you. White mages would come from different zones to help you out. it was really great. And it's true that sometimes you would play for a few hours then die and lose all your exp for that session, but the vast majority of times players were really good at their roles and death was not super common. I like the alternative that oneADseven suggested, that you can choose to go find your corpse and get most of the exp back. That seems reasonable to me.
oneADseven said:How is it immersive to think that your character died and now you have to get back to your corpse ... naked? In a truly challenging game?
If the game is truly challenging as in npc with see invis, alert systems and such it should technically be almost impossible to get your stuff without another group, but to be fair if they actually set it up this way, than basically everyone would complain becuase let'sface it everyone who is going to be playing this game is going to die, it is simply a matter of when. So has challenging as we want it to be there has to be a bit easier to achieve CR, either it be a rogue sneaking and hiding, simply invis, fd dragging, you name it but there as a way to get corpse runs even if it done by a single player.
oneADseven said:You know for a fact that this will create a more toxic environment? That's really interesting because my experience in FFXI was the exact opposite. It was by far the least toxic community I have ever seen in an MMO. There was no need for elite groups ... you just practiced good death prevention habits and played smart. You build up a buffer over time and eventually you'll have some breathing room when it's time to take some risks. I think a corpse rot feature would be great for this game because it creates a sense of urgency to get back to your corpse. I don't want to see solo players cheese dragging or abilities that allow you to summon corpses to the zoneline. If there are tools that allow you to circumvent the corpse run then how effective is it, really? It feels linear, artificial, and contrived. It feels forced ... in an open world game, where freedom is prevalent. And maybe that's a design goal ... offer this huge beautiful open world, and when you die, that freedom is stripped. I'm not a fan. XP can be as precious of a resource as VR wants to make it. Just to be clear ... I am not arguing against corpse runs. I think they are a great mechanic, but I feel that corpse rot is even better. I would rather see gear removed from our corpses and replaced with a sizeable chunk of XP that will disappear if our corpse rots. If that's going to break the game or ruin immersion then maybe someone is too rigid with how much they want EQ to be emulated.
Never knew corpse run can only be claimed by EQ. Maybe your too rigid with FFXI. I seem to see you referencing that game a lot with your suggestions. So don't be hypocritical with me in saying I am too rigid with EQ. Seems the only one that will bend in anyways would be me since I am actively thinking of other ways other than just exp loss. Not against exp loss, but not huge chunks. Also funny thing is regardless of what method is used you will still have cheesy rogues sneaking and dragging your corpse or a necro summoning it if your group disbands or aren't willing to go down there. Don't really get what you are trying to get at other then you have a third option and that is you can clear down to your corpse yourself with your group...unless you can't get your corpse for various reasons.
There is a widespread belief on this forum that the "EQ Way" is the right way, by default. Any suggestion that falls outside of that scope is automatically deemed suspect. So no, I am not being too rigid with my suggestion. I am simply considering options that would offer the best of both worlds and when I see "immersion" used as a counter argument in this discussion it circles right back to my point from earlier. Immersion in what sense? An EQ emulator? I can't relate to that position. There only "has" to be a way for single players to get corpses if we force players down a linear path of recovery. If our gear is held ransom then sure, it's imperative that we get it back and there needs to be a safety net that prevents us from losing our gear. If that safety net can then be exploited to allow content circumvention then the overall challenge factor is diminished anyway. I would much rather see some flexibility with how we navigate the risk vs reward spectrum.
@Kastor -- Reviving isn't the same thing as being resurrected. Is your "revived" character not a physical specimen? Needing to return to your physical body to reacquire your stuff makes sense if you respawn as a spirit or ghost. I'm sorry but I'm not buying into the immersion argument. If we want to cite immersion then it should be perma-death. Corpse runs by definition are immersion breaking, to me, because you can have an unlimited amount of the same character populated on your screen. Here is my character ... and there are his 5 corpses from earlier in the day. The carcasses will remain in tact unless I touch them ... but once I do, all of my physical bodies are combined ... wooo, Captain Planet!
>See I disagree with your fast travel. The run wasn't the tough part. It was dying along the way. I am pretty sure you won't win on the fast travel argument as they said it will be meaningful and the world will feel bigger. However, the EQ classic instant travel was porting with druids and wizards...which I actually liked and am fine with. <
Interesting that we have so many widely varying views and people that are "old school" on one issue can be "convenience not tedium" on another.
Personally I consider it highly illogical for VR to emphasize "large world" and "no easy travel" on the one hand if they allow certain classes to have instant travel abilites that can take other characters along.
If I can't get from Terminus City to the Butt Cheek hills in less than 5 hours the world is large.
If I can't get from Terminus City to the Butt Cheek hills unless I know or pay a druid or wizard the world is pretty damn small and the pig-futtering wizards and druids bribed or spelled the developers into giving them a hugely unfair advantage.
oneADseven said:There is a widespread belief on this forum that the "EQ Way" is the right way, by default. Any suggestion that falls outside of that scope is automatically deemed suspect. So no, I am not being too rigid with my suggestion. I am simply considering options that would offer the best of both worlds and when I see "immersion" used as a counter argument in this discussion it circles right back to my point from earlier. Immersion in what sense? An EQ emulator? I can't relate to that position. There only "has" to be a way for single players to get corpses if we force players down a linear path of recovery. If our gear is held random then sure, it's imperative that we get it back and there needs to be a safety net that prevents us from losing our gear. If that safety net can then be exploited to allow content circumvention then the overall challenge factor is diminished anyway. I would much rather see some flexibility with how we navigate the risk vs reward spectrum.
Don't really care about the enviroment of EQ is the way and only way. Don't pin that on me. I have been more than willingly to change things that aren't fast travel, instancing, LFG finder that automatically puts you into a group, and some others.
Corpse runs are a big thing that, I will admit, when you brought up acclimation, because keys and stuff already existed in EQ when you died anyways, that made me start thinking of alternatives. Also, I haven't played FFXI, but know people who have extensively, and they have said it's pretty toxic if you aren't in a good group. Which makes me think of WoW. I played WoW for a long time because I had a group of 40 - 50 people that I always played with in my group. But when we broke up and disbanded I realized WoW was insanely toxic. So I won't throw any skin in the game when it comes to FFXI, but I know various games that had harsh penalties where you lost a lot of hours of work over one death and that spawned a lot of elitism. Maybe FFXI was a exception, but a lot of MMO's who went down that path became toxic. Not mention how toxic the FF community is now with its new releases.