Naunet said:Parascol said:Yes, I don't expect a game that is quite as tedious and harsh as the early MMO's were, but I also don't expect the game to have the degree of the quality of life features present in modern mmo's either. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding VR's vision, their goal is to tone back all the conveniences that really hurt the social aspect of MMO's, while being mindful of not making it overly tedious. This vision is broad and could apply to a whole host of things that ultimately contributed to strong social ties and community in classic mmo's, such as death consequences, combat and downtime, epic quests, travel, trade, etc. The aggregate of all these things combined resulted in a very strong community. It was rare that I ran into someone I didn't at least recognize, because I spent a lot of time with various people either helping, or receiving help, for all kinds of game related goals. This is what excites me most about Pantheon. Forging new friendships and the feeling of being part of an actual community. I cannot do this in a game that automatically matches me with a few other players and we just blow through a dungeon in 15 minutes without saying a word to one-another, never to speak or see each other again when we are finished.I read statements from Brad McQuaid about how players who want that classic mmo experience again are currently orphaned, then launches a project to address it, and tend to associate that with what I would expect from a classic mmo. I read those statements and and have a certain degree of expectation around that, understanding that it won't be an EQ replica either. Today, there really is no viable alternative other than EQ Live or P99. Obviously, this type of gameplay is still desired by many, otherwise P99 wouldn't be thriving.
I am excited to pug with you, get to know you, then maybe help you get an item you otherwise couldn't get by yourself later down the road. I'm excited to share in your experience of putting on a rare piece of equipment that you worked your butt off to obtain. An item that everyone recognizes as a truly meaningful achievement that you can don proudly. I am excited to play a part in helping you to succeed, wehther it be as simple as buffing you in passing, or showing up every day to help you chip away at an arduous quest, or retrieve a corpse. You, an actual person that I'm not just randomly thrust into a dungeon with to have absolutely no intereation with before going our separate ways, never to see each other again.
I am excited to move into a dungeon, get my butt kicked, then see a group of higher level players in their fancy armor roll by and move toward the same area I was not quite big enough to try. I'm excited to wonder where they got that unique red breastplate that looks like nothing I had seen before, and if it was in that harder part of the dungeon I cannot do yet. I'm excited to feel a sense of pride and satisfaction when I finally get my own turn and roll past those who are lower than I am to an area they are not big enough to try.
These core tenets of classic mmo experience are what excites me. I cannot wait to team up with you in Terminus.
I find it interesting that we have both very similar and very different perspectives.
You mention random dungeon grouping - while I don't hate it, I totally agree that it led to a breakdown in interpersonal communication among players, and it's not something I'd want to see in Pantheon. That's why I'm hoping they include a tool that's a bit more like an advertising board for people to list themselves/their group and what they want to accomplish, that I can then browse (or post on) to find folk whose goals align with mine currently. Such a tool provides a level of convenience in that you don't have to hang out in one location and repeatedly spam advertisements manually in chat, without compromising on the server community aspect.
You talk about forging friendships and being a part of a community - I agree, these are great things. To be honest, I've not had any trouble experiencing such things in the other MMOs I play, but I definitely had to actively seek out those friendships and communities. It helps that as a roleplayer, my game experience comes with a built in community of other RPers - we naturally congregate and engage with each other (and for more than just RP). I'm looking forward to building this community in Pantheon (though I've not encountered any vocal RPers on this forum yet).
You mention meeting people and working together, helping others in passing, meeting shared goals - these are all great things and what I too like to experience in MMOs.
Where we differ is clearly in certain, honestly few, details. I personally don't see things like XP loss on death or the presence of an auction house in addition to player-to-player trade as contributing to this experience; instead they damage my experience.
Our goals are clearly the same, however.
Of course we have similar goals! And maybe your RP does help you find that sense of community you seek. But outside of that, how many of the players around you can you say you know or recognize?
I don't know if you played EverQuest, or another flavor of earlier mmo's, but I did, along with several others over the past 2 decades. I'm currently playing ESO. It's s a fun game in it's own right, but it's just not the same when it comes to community. I've watched MMO's gradually turn into single player games over the years as more and more convenience features get added. Now you don't even have to be on the same server when you group with others these days.
We recently disagreed on auction houses so let's use that as an example of then versus now. Compare this to a small town versus a big city. You live in a small town and you have one general store / grocer. Every time you buy something here, you interact with the same few people. Over time, you start to get to know them. Whereas in a big city, you never see the same people twice. It's always full of strangers. In some cases, you don't even interact with a check-out person, because it's an automated machine. If you bump into someone you know at your neighborhood grocery store in a big city, that's pretty rare. Think of a fully automated 24/7 auction house as your typical big city grocery store. Now think of the small town local grocer where you see the same people, every day, as well as other local customers. You see them day in and day out as you go about your life. You know each other. As these social interactions with the same people increase over time, you may find yourself chatting with them about various things and next thing you know, they are over at your house helping you paint a room or something. Think of East Commons Tunnel as the small town grocer where you bump into all the locals day in and day out. All these little micro social interactions add up to deep friendships and a real sense of community. This is just one small aspect of many that contributed to the sense of community.
Now I'm not saying we need another ECT, or even that we shouldn't have a fully automated auction house. I really don't care that much about trade either way so I don't have much skin in that game. But I do see the value in player interaction, regardless of how it happens. I'm not kidding when I say it was rare for me to run into another player I didn't at least recognize in EverQuest. It was things like having to walk up to a player and interact with them in order to do a buy/sell transaction that led to a true community. That small town vibe where everyone knew everyone, or at least knew of them. In ESO, I literally know no one outside of maybe 20 people that I run with regularly. I'm in a single player game with some group elements surrounded by thousands of other strangers.
Now, extrapolate that player interaction to almost every other aspect of the game and it really assisted in players actually getting to know each other. I use these real life examples because these are people. You need people to have community. Community is not solely exclusive to a video game. Community is comprised of people.
I understand you may disagree with some of the inconvienent things being discussed like no auction houses, experience loss, whatever. But please also try to understand that these things, while they sucked in many ways, ultimately brought people together and resulted in a strong community. That experience loss and having to grind it back sucked, no doubt, but man it really made that achievement all the more sweet when you finally got it. It doesn't have to be as extreme today and there were many senseless tedious time sinks that probably weren't necessary, which I'm hopeful won't be an issue in Pantheon. Either way, I'm sure they will strive to strike a healthy balance.
Parascol said:But outside of that, how many of the players around you can you say you know or recognize?
On a server? The pretty significant chunk of them - particularly the raiding/PvE communities, as I don't tend to be very serious in any PvP in MMOs. At least on a "I recognize you" basis, for the people who are around at the same playtimes I am. In WildStar it's easy, as the population is small; I'm pretty sure I know literally everyone. In WoW, the server pops are so huge that it's a bit unreasonable to expect to know everyone. Other MMOs in between, I'm generally familiar with everyone in the communities I engage with (RP and PvE), with a few exceptions (e.g. people I don't want to affiliate with in any way).
I actually like that I don't have to be on the same server to group in WoW, as I have friends scattered all over the place - and ALTS scattered all over the place. xD That game is so huge and old that it makes sense. Other MMOs I play don't have nearly as many servers and/or have much smaller populations, so it's not really an issue.
Anyway, my point is, I don't really feel like I lack in community in other games (there are some where I deliberately avoid community, as they're just my "piddle away on leveling characters for fun" mmos lol, and there is of course the exception of the effect of the random dungeon finder, which I mentioned in my previous post). So when you tell me, "Oh but you need to suffer through these couple things you really, really don't like in order to feel closer to everyone!" I... just don't buy it, based on my own experience. My experiences and the value I got out of them are no less valid than your own.
Naunet said:Parascol said:But outside of that, how many of the players around you can you say you know or recognize?On a server? The pretty significant chunk of them - particularly the raiding/PvE communities, as I don't tend to be very serious in any PvP in MMOs. At least on a "I recognize you" basis, for the people who are around at the same playtimes I am. In WildStar it's easy, as the population is small; I'm pretty sure I know literally everyone. In WoW, the server pops are so huge that it's a bit unreasonable to expect to know everyone. Other MMOs in between, I'm generally familiar with everyone in the communities I engage with (RP and PvE), with a few exceptions (e.g. people I don't want to affiliate with in any way).
I actually like that I don't have to be on the same server to group in WoW, as I have friends scattered all over the place - and ALTS scattered all over the place. xD That game is so huge and old that it makes sense. Other MMOs I play don't have nearly as many servers and/or have much smaller populations, so it's not really an issue.
Anyway, my point is, I don't really feel like I lack in community in other games (there are some where I deliberately avoid community, as they're just my "piddle away on leveling characters for fun" mmos lol, and there is of course the exception of the effect of the random dungeon finder, which I mentioned in my previous post). So when you tell me, "Oh but you need to suffer through these couple things you really, really don't like in order to feel closer to everyone!" I... just don't buy it, based on my own experience. My experiences and the value I got out of them are no less valid than your own.
OK I quit. You win. Have it all your way :p
I think you should go back and reread some of your previous responses in other threads and maybe self-reflect, actually. There is no compromise with you at all. This lack of compromise is exactly why I told you you might find yourself disappointed in this game. And that's under the assumption it won't be nearly as punishing as EverQuest was.
Parascol said:OK I quit. You win. Have it all your way :pI think you should go back and reread some of your previous responses in other threads and maybe self-reflect, actually. There is no compromise with you at all. This lack of compromise is exactly why I told you you might find yourself disappointed in this game. And that's under the assumption it won't be nearly as punishing as EverQuest was.
I... wasn't trying to win? All I've been trying to get is an acknowledgment that my experiences are just as valid as yours, rather than you telling me essentially that I'm wrong and don't know any better.
I
Naunet said:Parascol said:OK I quit. You win. Have it all your way :pI think you should go back and reread some of your previous responses in other threads and maybe self-reflect, actually. There is no compromise with you at all. This lack of compromise is exactly why I told you you might find yourself disappointed in this game. And that's under the assumption it won't be nearly as punishing as EverQuest was.
I... wasn't trying to win? All I've been trying to get is an acknowledgment that my experiences are just as valid as yours, rather than you telling me essentially that I'm wrong and don't know any better.
I guess what I'm trying to say is you are also invalidating others. All I'm trying to do is explain why some players want those things while simultaneously acknowledging that it probably won't be nearly extreme, that VR will seek a balance. I put a solution that tries to appeal to both sides and you're like, nope, it has to be an auction house and cite all these personal reasons as to why it has to be that way. Well what about the thousands of others who don't have the same personal reasons?
Watemper said:Flapp said:
And people would differ from you on the corpse run,like me. I never really cared about exp loss. I remember falling asleep at my computer and had a bad bind spot in highhold pass and waking up to 50+ corpses and lost 2 - 3 levels. Did I get angry I lost soo much EXP..Well yeah. But I won't forget that moment when I saw my corpse, out of the pile of all my naked corpses, that had my gear. The sense of relief I had when I saw all my stuff I worked hard for...yes..even my banded( I was a Paladin) was still there. Games that you can lose all your stuff in, not by getting hacked, but by mechanics is in play, your mentality completly changes and you start to pay attention way more. Take the diablo series. They have a hardcore mode where if you die once...you lose your character. Now people mitigate this with groups of friends and power lvling techniques, but man when you lose a character from that you get really pissed...but also the time spent playing that character was really enjoyable because of that risk vs reward type of thing.
Not saying you should lose your character if you die...but there is a threshold of how immersed people can get into a game because of the risk vs reward mentality and honestly just losing exp isn't going to be enough imo. That is like a misquito bite to a lot of the old school genre. Now losing your hard earned gear, which happened to me twice, sucked. But for some reason I kept playing and the community was great and giving my hami-downs. In fact, when word got around that I lost my gear from guildies and people I knew from other guilds, I was packing better gear that what I originally had after a few weeks thanks to community.
And the only way a community can do someting like that is if you make the enviroment and penalties harsh enough. Not insanely harsh. but harsh enough.
I don't want Perma death. I find the very idea of perma-death really ignorant. Comcast goes down at the wrong time and I lose everything and it wasn't even My fault. Nope. Dumb.
VR already said, there is ZERO threat of losing your gear. You don't have to go get the corpse if you don't want, but there won't be corpse rot.
Falling asleep at the keyboard is something I have never done. I find the very idea of losing 3-4 levels because you bound where you could die and fell asleep, just as dumb as perma death. I bound in safe spots, even if they were inconvenient. I never fell asleep at the keyboard. When I get tired, I log out and go to bed. It's really not that hard to do.
The Reason I say I don't like corpse runs is because I have been in groups on EQ where a pull goes bad in Lower Guk and I die (cleric ) and the group disbands, logs out and leaves me to get my own corpse. I was pretty skilled, so with invis pots and IVU, I could always get back to my corpse, but people today aren't as friendly as they were back in the day. Hope the community here will be different. But honestly, using the boards to judge people, there are some real douchebags on these forums. Hell, I am sure some people think I am a douchebag. Oh well, they will see in game I really am a nice person.
Syrif said:Well, not to be rude to anyone,
Another one I read about is some people not wanting "EC tunnel vendors" where the player devotes his or her time to selling and purchasing items - from what I read some people want the "bot system," as exists in WoW and EQ-Live. Again, if that is what you want - go play those games. Do I think it makes sense to make another "EC tunnel"? No, I do not. Do I think it makes sense to create an updated market area for traders that requires player interaction with eachother again? Yes, of course I do. The bot system is not the answer though. That already exists in WoW, EQ-Live, and others. We need a game that is not like those ones.
edit: When I say people can play those games it’s not meant as an insult. Rather, it’s a real option that people have. There needs to be a variety of mmo’s and gameplay available to people though.
Insulant to tell people to go play another game if they like 14 of the 15 things that they hope Pantheon becomes but dislike 1, a whole damn 1 thing. Do I want the essence of old school, the difficulty of old school, the group mechanics of old school. Yes. Do I believe that it must be a cut n paste of old school mechanics (or complete lack of in this case) to achieve this. No, not even close to no. I most fervently disagree if you even remotely believe we must toe YOUR line to be welcome in YOUR game. It is a sad state of affairs if you feel that there is only one way to achieve that feel, that difficulty, that return to proper guild mechanics (ie thats code for ALL the socialization I need, want, desire). This game is advertized to be many things not just EQ2.0, I do hope this game is not based off of a binary choice of left/right, old/new, up/down, EQ /WoW. There are literally hundreds of ways to do something that is not AH of WoW or ECT of EQ.
Perhaps others are much more well spoken but I speak from the heart when I say that I feel your whole post is insultanious in the extreeme to even suggest those on here should all go away if we dont worship at the EQ 2.0 alter.
Dashed said:Insulant to tell people to go play another game if they like 14 of the 15 things that they hope Pantheon becomes but dislike 1, a whole damn 1 thing. Do I want the essence of old school, the difficulty of old school, the group mechanics of old school. Yes. Do I believe that it must be a cut n paste of old school mechanics (or complete lack of in this case) to achieve this. No, not even close to no. Go rot, in the most polite way possible, if you even remotely believe we must toe YOUR line to be welcome in YOUR game. Completely and politely jump in a lake if you feel that there is only one way to achieve that feel, that difficulty, that return to proper guild mechanics (ie thats code for ALL the socialization I need, want, desire). This game is advertized to be many things not just EQ2.0, I do hope this game is not based off of a binary choice of left/right, old/new, up/down, EQ /WoW. There are literally hundreds of ways to do something that is not AH of WoW or ECT of EQ.Perhaps others are much more well spoken but I speak from the heart when I say that I feel your whole post is insultanious in the extreeme to even suggest those on here should all go away if we dont worship at the EQ 2.0 alter.
While this toes the line for my sensibilities of polite, I definitely agree with the essence of this post. xD
Kastor said: Parascol that's why I dont even entertain a few people and their responses on this forum. Some I'm not sure why they pledged. My fear is that VR will alter their vision way to much to accommodate the ones being the loudest and unwilling to compromise.
That was always the problem with the gamer forums as far back as 2000-ish: the vocal minority would drive the changes to the game. I think this is one of the most important things - don't cater to any-sized vocal populace (myself included) : do what you *KNOW* is right.
Look, let's face it....we can be diplomatic or politically correct all we want but the reality is this: we want to recapture that special something we had with EQ. When they developed EQ, they didn't *ASK* people what to do - they did it and they told US how to play the game, and we rabidly loved it! Corporate bean counters got involved and started driving decision making to accomodate what they thought would increase customer base.
It started out that there were residents of the virtual game world.....this perspective changed into players of the game world.......which morphed into customers of the game.
Are we residents or players or customers?
it sounds silly but that is the most important question (IMO)
Porygon said:I stopped reading when you said go play other games. That's never a good solution for anyone.
I disagree and agree. Its totally acceptable in this conversation, but it shouldn't have to be said at all. Sadly we all read over and over the people who keep trying to push this game towards what has already been done to death. The reason people want those things is pretty simple... they can't assimilate to change.
So in order to prevent change they push to keep things exacly as they are. Warm, safe and familiar...its called conditioning. Time to wash that from your brain and get back to basics.
Dashed said:Syrif said:Well, not to be rude to anyone,
Another one I read about is some people not wanting "EC tunnel vendors" where the player devotes his or her time to selling and purchasing items - from what I read some people want the "bot system," as exists in WoW and EQ-Live. Again, if that is what you want - go play those games. Do I think it makes sense to make another "EC tunnel"? No, I do not. Do I think it makes sense to create an updated market area for traders that requires player interaction with eachother again? Yes, of course I do. The bot system is not the answer though. That already exists in WoW, EQ-Live, and others. We need a game that is not like those ones.
edit: When I say people can play those games it’s not meant as an insult. Rather, it’s a real option that people have. There needs to be a variety of mmo’s and gameplay available to people though.
Insulant to tell people to go play another game if they like 14 of the 15 things that they hope Pantheon becomes but dislike 1, a whole damn 1 thing. Do I want the essence of old school, the difficulty of old school, the group mechanics of old school. Yes. Do I believe that it must be a cut n paste of old school mechanics (or complete lack of in this case) to achieve this. No, not even close to no. I most fervently disagree if you even remotely believe we must toe YOUR line to be welcome in YOUR game. It is a sad state of affairs if you feel that there is only one way to achieve that feel, that difficulty, that return to proper guild mechanics (ie thats code for ALL the socialization I need, want, desire). This game is advertized to be many things not just EQ2.0, I do hope this game is not based off of a binary choice of left/right, old/new, up/down, EQ /WoW. There are literally hundreds of ways to do something that is not AH of WoW or ECT of EQ.
Perhaps others are much more well spoken but I speak from the heart when I say that I feel your whole post is insultanious in the extreeme to even suggest those on here should all go away if we dont worship at the EQ 2.0 alter.
What EQ 2.0 altar? Did you mean Everquest 2? Lol, that game was a failure (not just my words though). Actually, WoW wound up greatly dominating EQ2. As for "14 of 15 things," heck I'll take 14 of 15 good things for Pantheon :) Of course this isn't my game personal game. My hope is Pantheon will actually be very different from WoW and EQ-Live. Anyway, what I'm getting at is if someone wants instant gratification with less depth, then I mentioned some games that someone can already get that gaming experience in. I don't see anything insulting in stating that. It is my opinion that Pantheon should go the more "in-depth direction." Given the streams and what we've seen, I'd say Pantheon is progressing well in that regard. I'm thrilled :)
Spluffen said:Watemper said:Sure..that's what makes you an individual. Don't know why you added coward at the end. Seems you are scared of some of the older mechanics.
Eh? I agree with him in terms of preference tbh. He's a coward for telling others to just go play wow.
Well, then I disagree with him/her in terms of preference then tbh. I don't think stating opinions or facts makes someone a coward.
Spluffen said:lol, touché
same could be said unto you tho, or indeed myself I guess; just go play on p99
Yep, I've played both WoW and P99, but they both seem to be dated and lacking. I'm looking forward to an updated game with depth again. Pantheon's progress is looking great :)
Syrif said: Porygon - What is wrong with saying that? If someone is looking for that type of gameplay and game mechanics, then I said they can play WoW, EQ-Live, and the like because those already exist in those games. No offense meant to anyone, but it’s facts that have been stated is all. Pantheon, in my opinion, is making substantial progress on something that doesn’t exist right now because it is meant to be different.
The reason it's not a useful comment is because pretty much everyone has a different list of mechanics and features that *they* think are essential to be 'old-school' and a list that they think were just bad and obviously needed improvement.
Also, most people, including myself are not all-or-nothing types. You don't have to have either ECT or fully automated AH and nothing in between. You don't have to have any old-school feature or the 100% QOL alternative.
The reason these discussions get so heated is the way people insist on pigeon-holing others as QOL-fans-that-ruined-the-genre for merely suggesting that their favourite bit from old-school games weren't perfect.
"You don't like the broccoli with my grandmother's Sunday roast dinner? Well, get out then! Go to McDonalds, that must be what you want!" Yeah. It is also pretty insulting.
disposalist said:Syrif said: Porygon - What is wrong with saying that? If someone is looking for that type of gameplay and game mechanics, then I said they can play WoW, EQ-Live, and the like because those already exist in those games. No offense meant to anyone, but it’s facts that have been stated is all. Pantheon, in my opinion, is making substantial progress on something that doesn’t exist right now because it is meant to be different.The reason it's not a useful comment is because pretty much everyone has a different list of mechanics and features that *they* think are essential to be 'old-school' and a list that they think were just bad and obviously needed improvement.
Also, most people, including myself are not all-or-nothing types. You don't have to have either ECT or fully automated AH and nothing in between. You don't have to have any old-school feature or the 100% QOL alternative.
The reason these discussions get so heated is the way people insist on pigeon-holing others as QOL-fans-that-ruined-the-genre for merely suggesting that their favourite bit from old-school games weren't perfect.
"You don't like the broccoli with my grandmother's Sunday roast dinner? Well, get out then! Go to McDonalds, that must be what you want!" Yeah. It is also pretty insulting.
My post isn't meant to be heated, at least I don't feel that way. I'm with you there; I'm not an all-or-nothing type either, though I'll admit that I never tried EQ2 for reasons stated above. The point I was making is I don't understand why we would want to adopt numerous, basic mechanisms akin to WoW and EQ-Live since those already widely exist in those games. I don't think this vision is narrow in scope at all, rather I'd say it's quite one of diversity - to have more mmo gameplay types available to people again. If we don't get a completely updated old-school-type of game, then hey, that's fine with me and in my opinion would be much better than what is currently out there. If we get a mostly updated old-school-type mmo with some changes, then I think that would be ideal. Pantheon development is looking good imo.
Syrif said:Anyway, what I'm getting at is if someone wants instant gratification with less depth, then I mentioned some games that someone can already get that gaming experience in. I don't see anything insulting in stating that.
Because you're being deliberately disingenuous and setting up this false narrative that people who dislike a couple aspects of old school MMOs like EQ automatically only want "instant gratification with less depth". That's not true. Stop saying it.
Parascol said:I
Naunet said:Parascol said:OK I quit. You win. Have it all your way :pI think you should go back and reread some of your previous responses in other threads and maybe self-reflect, actually. There is no compromise with you at all. This lack of compromise is exactly why I told you you might find yourself disappointed in this game. And that's under the assumption it won't be nearly as punishing as EverQuest was.
I... wasn't trying to win? All I've been trying to get is an acknowledgment that my experiences are just as valid as yours, rather than you telling me essentially that I'm wrong and don't know any better.
I guess what I'm trying to say is you are also invalidating others. All I'm trying to do is explain why some players want those things while simultaneously acknowledging that it probably won't be nearly extreme, that VR will seek a balance. I put a solution that tries to appeal to both sides and you're like, nope, it has to be an auction house and cite all these personal reasons as to why it has to be that way. Well what about the thousands of others who don't have the same personal reasons?
Yea I tried to do the same thing with this person and they don't budge at all. Their way or the highway. So that makes me more set in stone where I come from. I've stated this previously put there are alot of hypocrites, including myself at times, that they are just as set in stone as everyone else and won't budge. I am really hoping VR takes the "You are in our world now" seriously.