Kastor said: "Releasing" your soul to your blind point is being ressurected.. res'd by your deity, the game, whatever you want to say. Being res'd by other player is much different yes. And most player res will give a big portion of your exp back.
Being rezzed by "the game" wouldn't be immersion breaking? Does the lore support the idea of our deities resurrecting us?
@Watemper -- To be fair I have heard countless stories of toxicity within the EQ community. Trolls are going to exist in every game. When I played FFXI I had to use a language translator to communicate with the majority of the player base. In my experience the community was very helpful and patient. In any event, I just wanted to imply that XP can be leveraged to be as valuable of a resource as VR wants to make it. What are your thoughts on corpse rotting? Is that a mechanic you would like to see in Pantheon? Is there value in the idea of the world creating a sense of urgency to get back to your corpse before it disappears? I'm really intrigued by that and it's not something I have seen in any other game. At the same time, I don't see how corpse rot would be possible if our gear is attached. I'm just looking for a little bit of a compromise. It's definitely not a demand ... I'm going to spend a ton of time playing Pantheon and I'm sure I'll enjoy the game no matter how things shake out with fast travel, trade, death penalty, etc.
dorotea said:>See I disagree with your fast travel. The run wasn't the tough part. It was dying along the way. I am pretty sure you won't win on the fast travel argument as they said it will be meaningful and the world will feel bigger. However, the EQ classic instant travel was porting with druids and wizards...which I actually liked and am fine with. <
Interesting that we have so many widely varying views and people that are "old school" on one issue can be "convenience not tedium" on another.
Personally I consider it highly illogical for VR to emphasize "large world" and "no easy travel" on the one hand if they allow certain classes to have instant travel abilites that can take other characters along.
If I can't get from Terminus City to the Butt Cheek hills in less than 5 hours the world is large.
If I can't get from Terminus City to the Butt Cheek hills unless I know or pay a druid or wizard the world is pretty damn small and the pig-futtering wizards and druids bribed or spelled the developers into giving them a hugely unfair advantage.
Getting from Freeport to Everfrost took half an hour to maybe an hour depending on what route you took. No where did I sa you should take 5 hours to get somewhere.
Watemper said:dorotea said:>See I disagree with your fast travel. The run wasn't the tough part. It was dying along the way. I am pretty sure you won't win on the fast travel argument as they said it will be meaningful and the world will feel bigger. However, the EQ classic instant travel was porting with druids and wizards...which I actually liked and am fine with. <
Interesting that we have so many widely varying views and people that are "old school" on one issue can be "convenience not tedium" on another.
Personally I consider it highly illogical for VR to emphasize "large world" and "no easy travel" on the one hand if they allow certain classes to have instant travel abilites that can take other characters along.
If I can't get from Terminus City to the Butt Cheek hills in less than 5 hours the world is large.
If I can't get from Terminus City to the Butt Cheek hills unless I know or pay a druid or wizard the world is pretty damn small and the pig-futtering wizards and druids bribed or spelled the developers into giving them a hugely unfair advantage.
Getting from Freeport to Everfrost took half an hour to maybe an hour depending on what route you took. No where did I sa you should take 5 hours to get somewhere.
And from kaladim to Everfrost could take 2 hours if you barely missed the boat. So imo we need a touch of travel assistance, not quite instant cept from maybe a druid or wizard, but something to make it feel like your not stuck somewhere for an insane amount of time
Syrif said:Just curious - what are the "couple of aspects" you are referring to? As I've said, a *mostly* updated old-school type mmo with some needed changes is ideal. It's not a couple aspects that I'm getting at though, it is much broader in vision. Pantheon onward :)
For me personally, there are two main things I don't like about "old school" MMOs, and that's 1) losing XP on death (won't mention losing items, as we know Pantheon won't have that), and 2) a dearth of quests with which to level (or quests not granting XP at all). I don't think XP loss adds anything meaningful to my experience, and I severely dislike leveling by just endlessly grinding mobs.
I know I've also made some suggestions about other features (e.g. I REALLY want an in-depth costume/dye system; I think open-tagging is superior for mob credit distribution when not in an instance; I would prefer some sort of consolidated auction house-like function for making sales IN ADDITION to player-to-player trade; I like boss fights with highly complex mechanics rather than being tank-and-spank HP sponges; instanced content so that I can have content to tackle regardless of what time I'm able to log in), but those are just general suggestions. The two points above are things I KNOW I don't like at all, and no amount of people telling me I'm wrong, that "we know what's best for you", and that I just need to suffer more to reach some nirvana level of enjoyment will convince me that they will help my game experience.
Right, wanting some travel time for some depth doesn't necessarily mean wanting 5 or 10 hours of travel. Sometimes travel time can be 10 minutes or 20 minutes. Sometimes less than that. On the pretty rare occasion of travel taking a couple hours or less - that didn't break my back. 5+ hours for travel - now that may break a back or two ;)
I used to hate [brussel sprouts]. They were miserable. Then I dated this super heady vegan organic girl and she made those sprouts so good. I now love brussel sprouts. Just saying maybe we all have some parts of mmorpgs that are our brussel sprouts and maybe VR is our super heady vegan organic significant other just waiting to change our world.
oneADseven said:Kastor said: "Releasing" your soul to your blind point is being ressurected.. res'd by your deity, the game, whatever you want to say. Being res'd by other player is much different yes. And most player res will give a big portion of your exp back.Being rezzed by "the game" wouldn't be immersion breaking? Does the lore support the idea of our deities resurrecting us?
@Watemper -- To be fair I have heard countless stories of toxicity within the EQ community. Trolls are going to exist in every game. When I played FFXI I had to use a language translator to communicate with the majority of the player base. In my experience the community was very helpful and patient. In any event, I just wanted to imply that XP can be leveraged to be as valuable of a resource as VR wants to make it. What are your thoughts on corpse rotting? Is that a mechanic you would like to see in Pantheon? Is there value in the idea of the world creating a sense of urgency to get back to your corpse before it disappears? I'm really intrigued by that and it's not something I have seen in any other game. At the same time, I don't see how corpse rot would be possible if our gear is attached. I'm just looking for a little bit of a compromise. It's definitely not a demand ... I'm going to spend a ton of time playing Pantheon and I'm sure I'll enjoy the game no matter how things shake out with fast travel, trade, death penalty, etc.
I am fine with corpse rotting. They were in EQ also. 7 days to get your corpse. I think that is technically corpse rotting.
Edit: Also, I never said EQ didn't have a toxic side. You claimed FFXI had none. The Elite content blockers were cancer to the community. Some people that liked to train others were a problem and were dealt with usually. I assume FFXI had similar guilds and toxic behavior that EQ had since it is similarly designed.
snrub said:
A lot (I would wager most) of people who played EQ in 1999 HATED naked corpse runs. Hated having to stay up until 2 am and get up 4 hours later to go to work the next day or risk losing all their stuff. People hated 40 minute boat rides. A lot of people hated EC tunnel spam. Why did they play and love EQ? Because despite these things, they still loved the game and tolerated its imperfections.
There seems to be a small but vocal community that thinks if you don't literally want EQ vanilla with updated graphics you need to go play WoW instead. It's quite frankly absurd to suggest that someone who doesn't want this to be a 100% EQ clone should go play another game.
That's the thing, I don't remember *hating* anything.
I didn't hate the boat. By the time I started to get tired of waiting for it, I was reaching a point where I could port through a wizard almost all the time. I'm sure they can reduce boat rides now though.
There was ONE bad CR that I remember that truly sucked, and that was the first PoF break in on my server. That really did suck. I couldn't play for nearly 3 days. The rest of the time, CR was no big deal. I hope CR is a thing in Pantheon :) It seems like it currently is. Yay!
Riahuf22 said:Watemper said:dorotea said:>See I disagree with your fast travel. The run wasn't the tough part. It was dying along the way. I am pretty sure you won't win on the fast travel argument as they said it will be meaningful and the world will feel bigger. However, the EQ classic instant travel was porting with druids and wizards...which I actually liked and am fine with. <
Interesting that we have so many widely varying views and people that are "old school" on one issue can be "convenience not tedium" on another.
Personally I consider it highly illogical for VR to emphasize "large world" and "no easy travel" on the one hand if they allow certain classes to have instant travel abilites that can take other characters along.
If I can't get from Terminus City to the Butt Cheek hills in less than 5 hours the world is large.
If I can't get from Terminus City to the Butt Cheek hills unless I know or pay a druid or wizard the world is pretty damn small and the pig-futtering wizards and druids bribed or spelled the developers into giving them a hugely unfair advantage.
Getting from Freeport to Everfrost took half an hour to maybe an hour depending on what route you took. No where did I sa you should take 5 hours to get somewhere.
And from kaladim to Everfrost could take 2 hours if you barely missed the boat. So imo we need a touch of travel assistance, not quite instant cept from maybe a druid or wizard, but something to make it feel like your not stuck somewhere for an insane amount of time
Okay so then let's make a game to where you can get to anywhere in 10 mins no matter where you are on the map...EQ is a big world. That is fine. The assistance to getting too far away lands is with wizards and druids back in EQ. If they design it correctly you should have a plethora of things you can do along the way.
Naunet said:Syrif said:Just curious - what are the "couple of aspects" you are referring to? As I've said, a *mostly* updated old-school type mmo with some needed changes is ideal. It's not a couple aspects that I'm getting at though, it is much broader in vision. Pantheon onward :)For me personally, there are two main things I don't like about "old school" MMOs, and that's 1) losing XP on death (won't mention losing items, as we know Pantheon won't have that), and 2) a dearth of quests with which to level (or quests not granting XP at all). I don't think XP loss adds anything meaningful to my experience, and I severely dislike leveling by just endlessly grinding mobs.
I know I've also made some suggestions about other features (e.g. I REALLY want an in-depth costume/dye system; I think open-tagging is superior for mob credit distribution when not in an instance; I would prefer some sort of consolidated auction house-like function for making sales IN ADDITION to player-to-player trade; I like boss fights with highly complex mechanics rather than being tank-and-spank HP sponges; instanced content so that I can have content to tackle regardless of what time I'm able to log in), but those are just general suggestions. The two points above are things I KNOW I don't like at all, and no amount of people telling me I'm wrong, that "we know what's best for you", and that I just need to suffer more to reach some nirvana level of enjoyment will convince me that they will help my game experience.
Ohh we know that :)
Naunet - I totally agree with you on not losing items when you die, that won't be in Pantheon which is cool. I disagree regarding xp lost on death. XP recovery isn't mandatory on death, but that XP can be recovered with some strategy and a bit of work. I think some XP loss and XP recovery is one of those good components that promotes community interaction and development that would be nice to have in an mmo again. #communitymatters
Obviously I made the "5 hours" up I have no idea what VR would consider a long trip.
The center of one continent, to the coast, to a ship, on the ship, to another continent, to the center of that continent. I can see the absolutel longest trip in the game taking hours and that is without counting any time fighting or dying or doing corpse runs.
More routine trips certainly shouldn't take hours and hours - if they do we desperately need some means of more convenient travel.
But I don't think that convenience should be given to a few classes and denied to others. Maybe for personal travel - my last comment focused on where a druid or wizard might be able to transport a group (be a paid taxi service). That is what I consider inconsitant with the "large world" philosophy.
oneADseven said:There is a widespread belief on this forum that the "EQ Way" is the right way, by default. Any suggestion that falls outside of that scope is automatically deemed suspect. So no, I am not being too rigid with my suggestion. I am simply considering options that would offer the best of both worlds and when I see "immersion" used as a counter argument in this discussion it circles right back to my point from earlier. Immersion in what sense? An EQ emulator? I can't relate to that position. There only "has" to be a way for single players to get corpses if we force players down a linear path of recovery. If our gear is held random then sure, it's imperative that we get it back and there needs to be a safety net that prevents us from losing our gear. If that safety net can then be exploited to allow content circumvention then the overall challenge factor is diminished anyway. I would much rather see some flexibility with how we navigate the risk vs reward spectrum.
@Kastor -- Reviving isn't the same thing as being resurrected. Is your "revived" character not a physical specimen? Needing to return to your physical body to reacquire your stuff makes sense if you respawn as a spirit or ghost. I'm sorry but I'm not buying into the immersion argument. If we want to cite immersion then it should be perma-death. Corpse runs by definition are immersion breaking, to me, because you can have an unlimited amount of the same character populated on your screen. Here is my character ... and there are his 5 corpses from earlier in the day. The carcasses will remain in tact unless I touch them ... but once I do, all of my physical bodies are combined ... wooo, Captain Planet!
I don't know if I care about the immersion aspect of it. I mean, theoritcally you could ressurect at your bind and just have to go find a pile of your things that you left behind instead of an actual corpse if we want it to be more lore / immersion oriented.
I liked the CR's in EQ, because you had to rely on others for help in many cases. That's the biggest reason for me.
The xp penalty for not doing so is good I think. Pretty sure there won't be gear loss either way. But if you can convince a buddy to come drag your stuff out of a place you can't get to alone to save 15% xp loss, or whatever threshold they come up with is a good balance I think. But xp loss is a good deterrent to dying. I would hope you can fill a whole bar of experience at 50 too to give some buffer.
dorotea said:More routine trips certainly shouldn't take hours and hours - if they do we desperately need some means of more convenient travel.
But I don't think that convenience should be given to a few classes and denied to others. Maybe for personal travel - my last comment focused on where a druid or wizard might be able to transport a group (be a paid taxi service). That is what I consider inconsitant with the "large world" philosophy.
I think if there are certain classes that have abilities for some sort of quick travel, then it's likely that other classes will have unique abilities that may not be related to travel but valuable in their own way. I think this is a cool way to make certain classes appreciated for certain things.
I'm interested to learn more about each class and see what they all end up having to offer.
dorotea said:Obviously I made the "5 hours" up I have no idea what VR would consider a long trip.
The center of one continent, to the coast, to a ship, on the ship, to another continent, to the center of that continent. I can see the absolutel longest trip in the game taking hours and that is without counting any time fighting or dying or doing corpse runs.
More routine trips certainly shouldn't take hours and hours - if they do we desperately need some means of more convenient travel.
But I don't think that convenience should be given to a few classes and denied to others. Maybe for personal travel - my last comment focused on where a druid or wizard might be able to transport a group (be a paid taxi service). That is what I consider inconsitant with the "large world" philosophy.
Well then lets give everyone the clarity buff. Those pesky enchanters hogging all the mana regen. I don't want to have to find an enchanter or have to have one in my group because of Clarity. The down time in sitting sucks and so I think all classes should have clarity.
Also, I really hate how some classes get invis and can sneak there way pass mobs. I would like all classes to have invis of some sort so I don't have to rely on any class at all.
Really don't want to get down that slippery slope.
In terms of travel, we need to think fundamentally different based on VR's philosophies. They want Terminus to feel REAL and that distance matters. They want you to think about where you're traveling to and the fact that you might stay there for a couple of game sessions before heading back to a major city. This always gets tricky when you begin to raid, however, and the concept of slow travel forces you to plan things in advance.
I think this is something that VR should be looking at if they want the concept of the world to feel real and the possibility of overland raids at lower levels. Or perhaps this is exactly what they want where Raid A just happens to be closer to an overland boss than Raid B. In EQ, you'd need guild members teleporting all over the world to pick up people for raids. Is this going to be possible at lower levels?
In any case, here's what they said in their latest interview:
How viable is it for different races from different starting zones and alignments to find each other and play with one another from the start of the game?
I think we need to find a balance where you get to play with your friends, but still have it be a world where distance matters. For example, obviously the Ogre starting city isn't going to be right next to the Human starting city. Every race will have its own starting area. It might not necessarily be a big city like Thronefast, which is the largest of the nine starting areas. They will range in size. For example, Khadassa for the Dwarves will be a larger starting city, whereas the footprint of Skargol for the Skar will be relatively small and broken. Each will reflect the race that hails from them. It was really important to give each race a unique starting area to distinguish the individual identity of the race. What that does, though, is establish them at different places throughout the game world. If someone wants to make a Human in Thronefast and then someone else makes a Dark Myr in Syronai’s Rest all the way on a different continent, that is not something that we're planning to alleviate at this time through some kind of mechanic, whether that be an NPC or portal. Each of the races has been displaced from somewhere in reality, and have found themselves essentially shipwrecked on Terminus. They don't have a say in where they land, and they've had to carve out their presence in existence there. Making their way around Terminus is part of the rags-to-riches story for these races.
Kastor said: If someone wants to make a Human in Thronefast and then someone else makes a Dark Myr in Syronai’s Rest all the way on a different continent, that is not something that we're planning to alleviate at this time through some kind of mechanic, whether that be an NPC or portal. Each of the races has been displaced from somewhere in reality, and have found themselves essentially shipwrecked on Terminus. They don't have a say in where they land, and they've had to carve out their presence in existence there. Making their way around Terminus is part of the rags-to-riches story for these races. -- in time it will be a player spell. Wizard or druid once they learn or explore those areas (wizard spires & druid rings). I actually am thinking of taking my guy to a different starting area where they dont have that class. Think it would be a blast !!! The travel and then the other race area.
Hehe I am planning on Dark Myr...which I don't know is a good idea because if they are teh equivelent to Iksar on EQ, where everyone hates them, then it's going to be tough from a new player stand point lol.
Kastor said: If someone wants to make a Human in Thronefast and then someone else makes a Dark Myr in Syronai’s Rest all the way on a different continent, that is not something that we're planning to alleviate at this time through some kind of mechanic, whether that be an NPC or portal. Each of the races has been displaced from somewhere in reality, and have found themselves essentially shipwrecked on Terminus. They don't have a say in where they land, and they've had to carve out their presence in existence there. Making their way around Terminus is part of the rags-to-riches story for these races. -- in time it will be a player spell. Wizard or druid once they learn or explore those areas (wizard spires & druid rings). I actually am thinking of taking my guy to a different starting area where they dont have that class. Think it would be a blast !!! The travel and then the other race area.
Shortly after starting, I remember running into an Ogre in Kelethin forest and was like WHAT?!?! All of us elves sort of gathered around him and yelled at him to leave lol. At first I didn't even know it was another player. This was how new to the genre I was. I didn't play beta. I didn't even know Ogre was a playable race. Somehow I missed it during character creation. Someone just told me to grab the game, so I did, made a halfling paladin and started playing with absolutely no knowledge of what the game even was, or what to expect. They just said it was a big open virtual world and I was intrigued, so I went and bought it.
Bradley said:I used to hate [brussel sprouts]. They were miserable. Then I dated this super heady vegan organic girl and she made those sprouts so good. I now love brussel sprouts. Just saying maybe we all have some parts of mmorpgs that are our brussel sprouts and maybe VR is our super heady vegan organic significant other just waiting to change our world.
Cut brussel sprouts in half and place on baking sheet cut side up. Broil for 3-5 min until the cut edge is slightly crispy or brown. Place in a bowl and toss with some balsamic vinagrette heavy on the balsamic (or just balsamic vinegar but less) and toss til coated, add lots of chopped bacon (not bacon-bits) serve and top with grated, parmesian cheese.
My balsamic vinagrette is simple, 3/4 balsamic vinegar (don't go cheap) 1/4 oil (extra virgin is good, too, more fruity but you can use lighter oil mix some bacon grease with it, too) and coleman's mustard as an emulsifier. Just a little like a coleman's spoonful.
Its really good.
Syrif said:Well, not to be rude to anyone, but I keep seeing threads or comments that express a desire to "ease down" gameplay. Since these recent threads keep coming up and have **not** themselves been locked, then I will write of my reminder of the need for an updated old-school gameplay; I assume my thread will not be locked either. The obvious one is that we all know the mmo market is entirely dominated by mmo's at the moment that have greatly pursued the "ease down" approach. This option is widely available for players who want that type of gameplay - go play there if that is what you want. Honestly though, in my opinion, you will be playing games that have been on a downward spiral (at least subscription-wise such as WoW and EQ-Live).
Another one I read about is some people not wanting "EC tunnel vendors" where the player devotes his or her time to selling and purchasing items - from what I read some people want the "bot system," as exists in WoW and EQ-Live. Again, if that is what you want - go play those games. Do I think it makes sense to make another "EC tunnel"? No, I do not. Do I think it makes sense to create an updated market area for traders that requires player interaction with eachother again? Yes, of course I do. The bot system is not the answer though. That already exists in WoW, EQ-Live, and others. We need a game that is not like those ones.
I've also read threads where ease of travel is made, well, easier. Again, that already exists on a couple of mmo's that I am aware of. They are called WoW and EQ-Live. The importance of player interaction regarding travel is essential. In old-school gameplay, some classes had travel abilities that were useful in certain scenarios. Other travel abilities were just for travelling to other continents. Travel to another continent took a little time. Why? Well, it is another continent - that's why. Maybe a group member needed to be picked up there or maybe a group had to work on a different quest piece. If you want instant travel available to everyone akin to WoW and EQ-Live, then you have that option to go play and experience that. The idea of unique travel experiences is for the community to engage with each other in a meaningful way.
Some other threads I have read talk about how some people think they have lives now. Really quickly, we had lives in the old-school days too. We had jobs, commitments, and obligations then just as we do now. We adults and kiddos could play a challenging game then - why couldn't we do so again now? I know I have more time to play now versus then. Others may not, but that also hasn't changed. I know people who are retired now who have an abundance of time to play, but unfortunately there is not a single mmo out there that requires hardly any time or thought. Not much of a challenge. Not much of a "risk-vs-reward" exists at the moment.
Another one I read is having a small death penalty, maybe not one at all. WoW and EQ-Live have this system - if someone desires that experience, then those games are available to you. Those games have been losing subscribers in large numbers, but hey, some people want that gameplay and I respect that. Those games are widely available to them. As for Pantheon, we need a game that has a moderately challenging death penalty again. If you wan't to forego the requirements to recover some of the experience lost, then you can do so and recover the experience via other means. If you want to recover substantial experience lost, then that will require some work. It did not break my back in old-school gameplay and an updated version will not do so now either.
I also read about corpse runs being unecessary. If you don't like the idea of recovering your corpse with items, then WoW and EQ-Live are just a tad around the corner to you. Corpse runs sometimes utilized community interaction then, and corpse recoveries may do so again now. And yes, not having food or water needs to have a minor penalty like reduced walking speed from fatigue or no health/mana regen or something similar. The incentive is to well, buy some food and water. Or, ask a player to forage or summon some food for you.
What do lack of corpse runs, no death penalty, easy travel, and no risk-vs-reward all have in common? They all exist in other games already. We need something that doesn' exist right now. Anyway, what are your thoughts on why you think an updated old-school gameplay (and mechanisms) are necessary for Pantheon now given that an updated, challenging mmo is currently absent from the market?
edit: When I say people can play those games it’s not meant as an insult. Rather, it’s a real option that people have. There needs to be a variety of mmo’s and gameplay available to people though.
First demonstrably wrong thing is in the first sentence, not a good start. That 'tunnels' thread was another of the just as many "I want this game to be exactly like EQ and make me feel exactly like I remember feeling when I played EQ" threads. (Which is never going to happen since 1) you already played EQ so that gameplay will not be new. 2) you are a different person, I hope, then you were 2 decades ago. and 3) your memory of what you felt is skewed by our selective memories and the narratives we build about past activities.)
That thread does differ from this one insofar as you go on to say 'if you do not want the game exactly as I want it, go play something else.' Personally, I would much prefer the game is more Vanguard like then EQ like. Mostly, I want it fun so that it is not empty. Empty group based games are rather a problem. Why should we have to be quiet because you cannot handle a different opinion?
But yeah, the world is full of people with different positions, maybe you should use your standard and if you do not like it, find another planet to live on. Or, at least, build your own game. then you can do whatever you like. This is VR's and Brad's game. He will do what he wishes, some will be happy and some will not. Those that are not, even if it is people like you, should be able to express concern.
However, how many of these threads do we really freaking need?
I try to disagree respectfully, but I guess I am not a big enough man to be respecful to someone who is so disrespectfully narrow-minded.
note: I did not read any of the other comments in this thread because as I have said, there are hundreds of exactly the same threads in this forum.