Well, not to be rude to anyone, but I keep seeing threads or comments that express a desire to "ease down" gameplay. Since these recent threads keep coming up and have **not** themselves been locked, then I will write of my reminder of the need for an updated old-school gameplay; I assume my thread will not be locked either. The obvious one is that we all know the mmo market is entirely dominated by mmo's at the moment that have greatly pursued the "ease down" approach. This option is widely available for players who want that type of gameplay (it's actually monopolized at the momenty sadly) - one can play there if that is what one seeks. Honestly though, in my opinion, you will be playing games that have been on a downward spiral (at least subscription-wise such as WoW and EQ-Live).
Another one I read about is some people not wanting "EC tunnel vendors" where the player devotes his or her time to selling and purchasing items - from what I read some people want the "bot system," as exists in WoW and EQ-Live. Again, if that is what you want - those are available. Do I think it makes sense to make another "EC tunnel?" No, I do not. Do I think it makes sense to create an updated market area for traders that requires player interaction with eachother again? Yes, of course I do. The bot system is not the answer though since that already widely exists in WoW/EQ-Live/etc. We need a game that is not like those ones.
I've also read threads where ease of travel is made, well, easier. Again, that already exists on a couple of mmo's that I am aware of. They are WoW and EQ-Live. The importance of player interaction regarding travel is essential. In old-school gameplay, some classes had travel abilities that were useful in certain scenarios. Other travel abilities were just for travelling to other continents. Travel to another continent took a little time. Why? Well, it is another continent - that's why. Not everyone is a Wizard who can teleport of course. But, then a Wizard can't 'tank' either etc. Maybe a group member needed to be picked up there or maybe a group had to work on a different quest piece. If you want instant travel available to everyone akin to WoW and EQ-Live, then at least you have the option to go play/experience that. The idea of unique travel experiences is for the community to engage with each other in a meaningful way.
Some other threads I have read talk about how some people think they have lives now. Really quickly, we had lives in the old-school days too. We had jobs, commitments, and obligations then just as we do now. We adults and kiddos could play a challenging game then - why couldn't we do so again now? I know I have more time to play now versus then. Others may not, but that also hasn't changed. I know people who are retired now who have an abundance of time to play, but unfortunately there is not a single mmo out there that requires hardly any time or thought for what a lot of people desire. Not much of a challenge and not much of a "risk-vs-reward" exists at the moment.
Another one I read is having a small death penalty, maybe not one at all. WoW and EQ-Live have this system - if someone desires that experience, such mechanisms are available there. Those games have been losing subscribers in large numbers, but hey, some people want that gameplay and I respect that. Those games are widely available. As for Pantheon, we need a game that has a moderately challenging death penalty again. If you want to forego the requirements to recover some of the experience lost, then you can do so and recover the experience via other means. If you want to recover substantial experience lost, then that will require some work. It did not break my back in old-school gameplay and an updated version will not do so now either.
I also read about corpse runs being unnecessary. If you don't like the idea of recovering your corpse with items, then WoW and EQ-Live are just a tad around corner. Corpse runs sometimes utilized community interaction then, and corpse recoveries may do so again now. And yes, not having food or water needs to have a minor penalty like reduced walking speed from fatigue or no health/mana regen or something similar. The incentive is to buy some food and water. Or, ask a player to forage or summon some food for you.
What do lack of corpse runs, no death penalty, easy travel, and no risk-vs-reward all have in common? They all exist in other games already. We need things that don't exist right now. Anyway, what are your thoughts on why you think an updated old-school gameplay (and mechanisms) are necessary for Pantheon now given that an updated, challenging mmo is currently absent from the market?
edit: When I say people can play those games it’s not meant as an insult. Rather, it’s a real option that people have. There needs to be a variety of mmo’s and gameplay available to people though. :)
Hey Syrif,
My MMO criteria is much like yours. I want a game with the old school feel but I'm welcome to adding QoL enhancements that do not alter the fundamentals. ie an updated UI, chat features, options to help find group mates in the world etc.
I believe VR is attempting to make a game that improves upon the old formula, not mimicks it. Many of them played MMOs during the same generation that we did, so they share many of the same values as us, but that being said, if they find that through their testing that a certain feature adds to the game then I hope they implement it, even if it does not necessary fit into the old formula I know and love.
Bottom line, I believe we are in good hands with VR and I'm going to support Pantheon till the end! :)
Best,
Pilch
Porygon said:I stopped reading when you said go play other games. That's never a good solution for anyone.
Aye - it's usually better to apply some sort of comparison. Something like "This isn't grade-school gaming. This is college -level gaming. Be prepared to slough it out and dont expect your levels and loot-wins too often".
While I respect the concern about building a game with depth, meaningful choices, and a social focus, I feel that the antagonism, hostility, and "us against them" mentality that is often displayed by so-called "old-school" proponents is misplaced. All of us here pledged money - in some cases a lot of it - because we believe in the tenets of Pantheon. That does not mean that we need to remake EQ in every way, and it does not mean that every feature or innovation that has happened in post-EQ games is bad or will lead to bad things. No dev team purposely undertakes a design to weaken or destroy their own game. Sometimes things are poorly implemented or have unforeseen consequences, but that doesn't mean the concept was fundamentally flawed.
You should accept that among this community we will all have different opinions on how to achieve Pantheon's goals, and that is ok. If so-called "old school" people want their points and concerns to be taken more seriously, they should stop trying to tell everyone else that they backed the wrong game, and instead focus on trying to find solutions that work for whatever the topic of the week is.
I also think that applying labels to ourselves is a bad idea which is why I keep putting the words in quotes. In some debates, I am very "old school" in my thinking. But when you consider the entire game, it is not black and white.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it." - Aristotle
Syrif said: Porygon - What is wrong with saying that? If someone is looking for that type of gameplay and game mechanics, then I said they can play WoW, EQ-Live, and the like because those already exist in those games. No offense meant to anyone, but it’s facts that have been stated is all. Pantheon, in my opinion, is making substantial progress on something that doesn’t exist right now because it is meant to be different.
VR have said it, many expect it, this game isn't an EQ vanilla remake. People are just saying what they wanna see, you could do that too. While VR are making games for fans of older MMOs, it doesn't necessarily mean they're making it specifically to your taste. We all have different opinions on this, as I'm sure you can tell from this thread. Stop being such a coward!
Nephele said:While I respect the concern about building a game with depth, meaningful choices, and a social focus, I feel that the antagonism, hostility, and "us against them" mentality that is often displayed by so-called "old-school" proponents is misplaced. All of us here pledged money - in some cases a lot of it - because we believe in the tenets of Pantheon. That does not mean that we need to remake EQ in every way, and it does not mean that every feature or innovation that has happened in post-EQ games is bad or will lead to bad things. No dev team purposely undertakes a design to weaken or destroy their own game. Sometimes things are poorly implemented or have unforeseen consequences, but that doesn't mean the concept was fundamentally flawed.
You should accept that among this community we will all have different opinions on how to achieve Pantheon's goals, and that is ok. If so-called "old school" people want their points and concerns to be taken more seriously, they should stop trying to tell everyone else that they backed the wrong game, and instead focus on trying to find solutions that work for whatever the topic of the week is.
I also think that applying labels to ourselves is a bad idea which is why I keep putting the words in quotes. In some debates, I am very "old school" in my thinking. But when you consider the entire game, it is not black and white.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it." - Aristotle
Don't think anyone is saying to remake old school EQ. But what most of us are saying is to not make mechanics that takes away from an old school type of MMO. Instead make mechanics that enhance it those core aspects of risk vs rewards, adventuring, and interaction with other people. Of course add things that are new, which they are doing, but make sure it doesn't take away from the MMO. Honestly, this project probably wouldn't be even going on if the devs didn't believe that MMO's took a wrong turn somewhere, which is why they constantly refer to going back to the old school MMO's and taking a different path than current MMO's.
Just also take into consideration that some mechanics that we like in Modern MMO's are only good because of a lot of bad mechanics.
Also, to make a comparison to current MMO's and other games. I have been playing BFA expansion in WoW for a few weeks. I have made zero friends and had maybe 2 interactions. The only people I seem to be able to play with are the people that got me back into the game, which is my brother and his real life friends. Even then, mainly just my brother. I also play Fornite. Literally the first day I had around 7 friend requests and get asked to play with them. Been playing for a month and a half and have around 20-25 people that I can play and interact with.
There is a problem when a game like Fornite provides more interaction than current MMO's like WoW. You have to try and get interaction with people in WoW. in Fornite it just happens naturally. MMO's have killed that natural interaction with all these dumb downed mechanics.
Spluffen said:Syrif said: Porygon - What is wrong with saying that? If someone is looking for that type of gameplay and game mechanics, then I said they can play WoW, EQ-Live, and the like because those already exist in those games. No offense meant to anyone, but it’s facts that have been stated is all. Pantheon, in my opinion, is making substantial progress on something that doesn’t exist right now because it is meant to be different.VR have said it, many expect it, this game isn't an EQ vanilla remake. People are just saying what they wanna see, you could do that too. While VR are making games for fans of older MMOs, it doesn't necessarily mean they're making it specifically to your taste. We all have different opinions on this, as I'm sure you can tell from this thread. Stop being such a coward!
Sure..that's what makes you an individual. Don't know why you added coward at the end. Seems you are scared of some of the older mechanics.
People that say "if you do not like everything that *I* consider old school then go and play WoW" should go and ....no I won't say it.
We all supposedly support Pantheon here - let's treat eachother as allies that do not agree on every single point not enemies to be driven away.
Many design decisions will make Pantheon what it will be, and very few of us will agree on *every* one of them.
It should suffice that we agree that a game that goes the way we want on two or five or eight of the significant points is a whole lot better than what is out there now that may approximate zero on that scale.
Now now Dorotea - that’s a little harsh :) what I’m getting at is gamers should have a variety of different game types to play from.
Honestly I think the whole "go play WoW" response comes from a reasonable fear that players will influence the game in the wrong direction, because regardless of what VR says, we have been conditioned to believe, after nearly 20 years of game development, that they end up caving to the pressure of players wanting too much convenience. I have to admit that when I start considering the sum of some folks post I can't help but think, "Well then, why not just go play WoW?"
When I start to feel like telling someone to go play another game is when they really don't put up any constructive ideas other than "no, I like it this way" and it's quite literally how it works in 10 other games and it's why most of them fail. Why would a player feel compelled to leave a game they are heavily invested for another game that's nearly identical? Well, I believe that way is the very reason why you AREN'T playing WoW instead, so why are you asking for it? I don't want to have to grind xp after I die, I don't want to have to retrieve my corpse, I don't want to have to travel, I don't think it's fair that only x number of classes can port me somewhere, I don't want to have to spend any time interacting with players to buy/sell items, I don't want to have to interact with players at all, etc etc etc. Modern games have alleviated all of these inconveniences already. They already exist. Rather than just saying no, what are your ideas then, while staying true to the core tenets? Surely there is a compromise.
EverQuest is basically becoming another carbon copy. Players who want a vanilla EQ experience really have no other option other than...EQ TLP or P99, which is pushing 20 years old with horrible graphics. Sure it was immersive at the time, but not anymore. I personally have no interest going and repeating the content on P99 simply because it's the only option. I've been there, done that, a few times, and it's stale now. This game doesn't have to be a Vanilla EQ carbon copy either, but gosh, there has to be some middle ground. We need a fresh game with new content and new innovation, while staying true to what older MMO's captured in terms of group play and community. I'm hoping VR can nail it, but it's like Chris said: "We only get one shot at this".
I think compromise solutions get proposed (for many aspects) on both sides, but those posts often get lost in page after page of people trying to defend their position. For the trade debate especially, I would challenge everyone to set aside their own emotion for a moment and go read through the threads and count the posts where people have tried to offer options and ideas on how to make it work for both sides. Those ideas may not be perfect, but there are more of them than many people seem to realize.
I think it's also really important that we try to respect other people's points of view when we talk about what we prefer. I am not a competitive raider but I understand that some people enjoy that. My goal will always be to find a way for both sides of that debate to enjoy Pantheon without shutting out one side or the other. The same applies to trade and buying/selling, and to travel (though travel is a much tougher discussion because there is less room in the middle of it). Either way though we need to respect each other and choose our words carefully. It is easy to seem like you are attacking someone without meaning to, and a lot of folks don't even try to prevent it. I get that we all get frustrated sometimes, but a constructive debate sometimes means not giving voice to that frustration, and staying focused on the solution.
Nephele said:I think compromise solutions get proposed (for many aspects) on both sides, but those posts often get lost in page after page of people trying to defend their position. For the trade debate especially, I would challenge everyone to set aside their own emotion for a moment and go read through the threads and count the posts where people have tried to offer options and ideas on how to make it work for both sides. Those ideas may not be perfect, but there are more of them than many people seem to realize.
I think it's also really important that we try to respect other people's points of view when we talk about what we prefer. I am not a competitive raider but I understand that some people enjoy that. My goal will always be to find a way for both sides of that debate to enjoy Pantheon without shutting out one side or the other. The same applies to trade and buying/selling, and to travel (though travel is a much tougher discussion because there is less room in the middle of it). Either way though we need to respect each other and choose our words carefully. It is easy to seem like you are attacking someone without meaning to, and a lot of folks don't even try to prevent it. I get that we all get frustrated sometimes, but a constructive debate sometimes means not giving voice to that frustration, and staying focused on the solution.
When I see someone put up an idea and someone else comes along and immediately shuts it down, and then says we should do it like WoW (in so many words), then I don't exactly feel very receptive to that. It makes me want to say, well then, go play WoW.
But I see what you are saying. We need to be mindful of the diverity of preferences and opinions and respect those differences. I totally agree. The reality is that all of us will have to compromise on some level due to the nature of this diversity, and everyone needs to try to be more open-minded about game mechanics that make them uncomfortable. The best we can hope for is enough middle ground to satisfy a sufficient number of players needed to keep the lights on. The more the better, of course. It's going to be quite a balancing act on VR's part.
Parascol said:Honestly I think the whole "go play WoW" response comes from a reasonable fear that players will influence the game in the wrong direction
The "wrong direction" is entirely subjective. I don't want a WoW clone (I don't even play WoW very often outside of leveling alts and farming transmogs), but I also think that an original Everquest clone with updated graphics would be a horrible game. When I bring up things that I like in other games, I don't bring them up because I want a reskinned version of that game - I bring them up because I think that particular feature was something that X Game did very well (and in a few certain case, pretty much perfectly). That's it.
I'm also not the kind of person to have "single MMO loyalty syndrome", though. I play many different MMOs, all for different reasons (granted, I'm super casual in most of them lol), and I would love to add Pantheon to that list.
I'm tired of people labeling me as some enemy just because there are a couple design points from original EQ that I don't like. This isn't EQ. It's Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen. Let it be its own game, and acknowledge that everyone here has the right to provide their feedback on this game's development - not just be told to go play another game.
Naunet said:Parascol said:Honestly I think the whole "go play WoW" response comes from a reasonable fear that players will influence the game in the wrong directionThe "wrong direction" is entirely subjective. I don't want a WoW clone (I don't even play WoW very often outside of leveling alts and farming transmogs), but I also think that an original Everquest clone with updated graphics would be a horrible game. When I bring up things that I like in other games, I don't bring them up because I want a reskinned version of that game - I bring them up because I think that particular feature was something that X Game did very well (and in a few certain case, pretty much perfectly). That's it.
I'm also not the kind of person to have "single MMO loyalty syndrome", though. I play many different MMOs, all for different reasons (granted, I'm super casual in most of them lol), and I would love to add Pantheon to that list.
I'm tired of people labeling me as some enemy just because there are a couple design points from original EQ that I don't like. This isn't EQ. It's Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen. Let it be its own game, and acknowledge that everyone here has the right to provide their feedback on this game's development - not just be told to go play another game.
Alright Naunet, I never labeled you as an enemy. What I won't do is debate with you over features that you deem "must-haves" without even trying to entertain different ideas. This open-mindedness of other players preferences is a two-way street.
So let me try a different angle:
What about Pantheon excites you the most?
Parascol said:Alright Naunet, let me try from a different angle:
What about Pantheon excites you the most?
The story and world design is what hooked me from the first moment I browsed their website. I think the multi-dimensional concept is really fascinating and has a lot of future plot potential (not to mention roleplay potential!). I also absolutely love the diversity of playable race designs (though I do wish for a bit more freedom in race/class combo lol); Pantheon has some of the most unique races I've ever seen. More recently, I've really fallen in love with the druid class concept, and I'm still holding out for Necro healer. ;D
I'm super excited about how they plan to involve environment effects on gameplay. That's a new and interesting concept in MMOs!
I was intrigued by the devs' funding strategy and encouraged by their commitment to avoid cash shops (a rarity in MMOs these days). That alone would be enough for me to support them, as I view the freemium/cash shop system as a horrible infection in the MMO market.
From their game tenets, these stuck out to me:
- "An awareness that content is king."
- "A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics."
- "An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding." (though it seems some of us on the forums differ on what "challenging" means)
- "A belief that an immersive world requires intelligent inhabitants."
- "A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned." (I am a huge proponent of cooperative, not competitive, gameplay, as you can probably tell from other posts of mine.)
There's also this quote from their FAQ:
Pantheon is most definitely a modern MMO with modern graphics and new and exciting features and mechanics. There are already emulators out there that are clones of earlier MMOs and Visionary Realms has no desire to make another emulator. That said, we also feel that many of the features and mechanics of previous MMOs have been abandoned in more recent games, resulting in a less challenging, compelling, deep, and social experience. Pantheon, therefore, will indeed bring back some of these conventional mechanics and ideas but with a fresh perspective, some tweaks and revisions. We also understand that while gamers’ tastes don’t fundamentally change over time, their situations, lives, and responsibilities do. Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involved inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose those which make sense and are needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game.
There are certainly aspects of older MMOs I can get behind and would love to see how it makes Pantheon stand out. But I was encouraged by VR's seeming awareness of how MMOs have improved over time as well. (It's not all bad!)
On a more personal note, over a year ago, I made a comment on one of their youtube videos. I don't remember which one, but there was a little mention of costume systems. In my comment, I detailed why I found wardrobe systems so critical to my enjoyment of an MMO and what I would like to see in a wardrobe system in Pantheon. I got a personal response from the dev in the video acknowledging my feedback and letting me know he'd pass it on (and even that they had some ideas/some stuff in mind he hoped might satisfy everyone). That engagement demonstrated a responsiveness and openness to feedback that is rare in my experience. So I was impressed!
There's probably more that I haven't recalled off the top of my head, but there's a short story as to why I don't regret my financial backing 2 years ago - regardless of the disagreements I may get in on the forums.
(also: NECRO HEALER, PLZ)
I get what you are saying, but at the same time, be careful what you wish for. I agree there are many mmo games out for the instant gratification crowd and I agree they should go play those games.
However. There is more to it that than. Let me say, I want a game like EQ1. I want people to lose 2-4 hours worth of EXPs if they don't get a ress. I have always wanted LEVEL LOSS. people cry like babies when I say that, but if you don't make death harsh, it's just an annoying thing that gets in the way for a few minutes. On the flip side, I don't want Naked corpse runs. I want there to BE a corpse that can be ressed or if I want to travel to it and click it, I get some exps back.
That doesn't mean that Pantheon can't improve some stuff just to make things a touch easier here and there and still not ruin the game.
I recently went back to EQ TLP server, Coirnav. It was loads of fun for the first couple weeks but then I started having more and more trouble getting a group.
Was in a big guild. (it crashed and burned within 4-5 weeks from launch) got anther guild. crashed again. I would literally run from lava, to SRO, to guk, to unrest, etc etc etc all night long LFG.
I would be in the LFG box. I would tell them I would travel (lucky for me, ports were quick and cheap, making travel Really easy (thats a GOOD THING).
I would end up getting a group 1-2 nights a week and not getting a group the other 5-6 nights. it sucked and I quit the game. I love EQ, but we need SOME modern stuff too. I don't want ANYTHING remotely close to a WOW clone, but some modern sprinkled with harsh death penalties and Level Loss isn't bad either.
I would go back to Coirnav today if I could find groups 3-5 nights a week but I don't wanna be a tank.
Naunet said:Parascol said:Alright Naunet, let me try from a different angle:
What about Pantheon excites you the most?The story and world design is what hooked me from the first moment I browsed their website. I think the multi-dimensional concept is really fascinating and has a lot of future plot potential (not to mention roleplay potential!). I also absolutely love the diversity of playable race designs (though I do wish for a bit more freedom in race/class combo lol); Pantheon has some of the most unique races I've ever seen. More recently, I've really fallen in love with the druid class concept, and I'm still holding out for Necro healer. ;D
I'm super excited about how they plan to involve environment effects on gameplay. That's a new and interesting concept in MMOs!
I was intrigued by the devs' funding strategy and encouraged by their commitment to avoid cash shops (a rarity in MMOs these days). That alone would be enough for me to support them, as I view the freemium/cash shop system as a horrible infection in the MMO market.
From their game tenets, these stuck out to me:
- "An awareness that content is king."
- "A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics."
- "An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding." (though it seems some of us on the forums differ on what "challenging" means)
- "A belief that an immersive world requires intelligent inhabitants."
- "A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned." (I am a huge proponent of cooperative, not competitive, gameplay, as you can probably tell from other posts of mine.)
There's also this quote from their FAQ:
Pantheon is most definitely a modern MMO with modern graphics and new and exciting features and mechanics. There are already emulators out there that are clones of earlier MMOs and Visionary Realms has no desire to make another emulator. That said, we also feel that many of the features and mechanics of previous MMOs have been abandoned in more recent games, resulting in a less challenging, compelling, deep, and social experience. Pantheon, therefore, will indeed bring back some of these conventional mechanics and ideas but with a fresh perspective, some tweaks and revisions. We also understand that while gamers’ tastes don’t fundamentally change over time, their situations, lives, and responsibilities do. Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involved inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose those which make sense and are needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game.
There are certainly aspects of older MMOs I can get behind and would love to see how it makes Pantheon stand out. But I was encouraged by VR's seeming awareness of how MMOs have improved over time as well. (It's not all bad!)
On a more personal note, over a year ago, I made a comment on one of their youtube videos. I don't remember which one, but there was a little mention of costume systems. In my comment, I detailed why I found wardrobe systems so critical to my enjoyment of an MMO and what I would like to see in a wardrobe system in Pantheon. I got a personal response from the dev in the video acknowledging my feedback and letting me know he'd pass it on (and even that they had some ideas/some stuff in mind he hoped might satisfy everyone). That engagement demonstrated a responsiveness and openness to feedback that is rare in my experience. So I was impressed!
There's probably more that I haven't recalled off the top of my head, but there's a short story as to why I don't regret my financial backing 2 years ago - regardless of the disagreements I may get in on the forums.
(also: NECRO HEALER, PLZ)
Yes, I don't expect a game that is quite as tedious and harsh as the early MMO's were, but I also don't expect the game to have the degree of the quality of life features present in modern mmo's either. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding VR's vision, their goal is to tone back all the conveniences that really hurt the social aspect of MMO's, while being mindful of not making it overly tedious. This vision is broad and could apply to a whole host of things that ultimately contributed to strong social ties and community in classic mmo's, such as death consequences, combat and downtime, epic quests, travel, trade, etc. The aggregate of all these things combined resulted in a very strong community. It was rare that I ran into someone I didn't at least recognize, because I spent a lot of time with various people either helping, or receiving help, for all kinds of game related goals. This is what excites me most about Pantheon. Forging new friendships and the feeling of being part of an actual community. I cannot do this in a game that automatically matches me with a few other players and we just blow through a dungeon in 15 minutes without saying a word to one-another, never to speak or see each other again when we are finished.
I read statements from Brad McQuaid about how players who want that classic mmo experience again are currently orphaned, then launches a project to address it, and tend to associate that with what I would expect from a classic mmo. I read those statements and and have a certain degree of expectation around that, understanding that it won't be an EQ replica either. Today, there really is no viable alternative other than EQ Live or P99. Obviously, this type of gameplay is still desired by many, otherwise P99 wouldn't be thriving.
I am excited to pug with you, get to know you, then maybe help you get an item you otherwise couldn't get by yourself later down the road. I'm excited to share in your experience of putting on a rare piece of equipment that you worked your butt off to obtain. An item that everyone recognizes as a truly meaningful achievement that you can don proudly. I am excited to play a part in helping you to succeed, wehther it be as simple as buffing you in passing, or showing up every day to help you chip away at an arduous quest, or retrieve a corpse. You, an actual person that I'm not just randomly thrust into a dungeon with to have absolutely no intereation with before going our separate ways, never to see each other again.
I am excited to move into a dungeon, get my butt kicked, then see a group of higher level players in their fancy armor roll by and move toward the same area I was not quite big enough to try. I'm excited to wonder where they got that unique red breastplate that looks like nothing I had seen before, and if it was in that harder part of the dungeon I cannot do yet. I'm excited to feel a sense of pride and satisfaction when I finally get my own turn and roll past those who are lower than I am to an area they are not big enough to try.
These core tenets of classic mmo experience are what excites me. I cannot wait to team up with you in Terminus.
Flapp said:I get what you are saying, but at the same time, be careful what you wish for. I agree there are many mmo games out for the instant gratification crowd and I agree they should go play those games.
However. There is more to it that than. Let me say, I want a game like EQ1. I want people to lose 2-4 hours worth of EXPs if they don't get a ress. I have always wanted LEVEL LOSS. people cry like babies when I say that, but if you don't make death harsh, it's just an annoying thing that gets in the way for a few minutes. On the flip side, I don't want Naked corpse runs. I want there to BE a corpse that can be ressed or if I want to travel to it and click it, I get some exps back.
That doesn't mean that Pantheon can't improve some stuff just to make things a touch easier here and there and still not ruin the game.
I recently went back to EQ TLP server, Coirnav. It was loads of fun for the first couple weeks but then I started having more and more trouble getting a group.
Was in a big guild. (it crashed and burned within 4-5 weeks from launch) got anther guild. crashed again. I would literally run from lava, to SRO, to guk, to unrest, etc etc etc all night long LFG.
I would be in the LFG box. I would tell them I would travel (lucky for me, ports were quick and cheap, making travel Really easy (thats a GOOD THING).
I would end up getting a group 1-2 nights a week and not getting a group the other 5-6 nights. it sucked and I quit the game. I love EQ, but we need SOME modern stuff too. I don't want ANYTHING remotely close to a WOW clone, but some modern sprinkled with harsh death penalties and Level Loss isn't bad either.
I would go back to Coirnav today if I could find groups 3-5 nights a week but I don't wanna be a tank.
And people would differ from you on the corpse run,like me. I never really cared about exp loss. I remember falling asleep at my computer and had a bad bind spot in highhold pass and waking up to 50+ corpses and lost 2 - 3 levels. Did I get angry I lost soo much EXP..Well yeah. But I won't forget that moment when I saw my corpse, out of the pile of all my naked corpses, that had my gear. The sense of relief I had when I saw all my stuff I worked hard for...yes..even my banded( I was a Paladin) was still there. Games that you can lose all your stuff in, not by getting hacked, but by mechanics is in play, your mentality completly changes and you start to pay attention way more. Take the diablo series. They have a hardcore mode where if you die once...you lose your character. Now people mitigate this with groups of friends and power lvling techniques, but man when you lose a character from that you get really pissed...but also the time spent playing that character was really enjoyable because of that risk vs reward type of thing.
Not saying you should lose your character if you die...but there is a threshold of how immersed people can get into a game because of the risk vs reward mentality and honestly just losing exp isn't going to be enough imo. That is like a misquito bite to a lot of the old school genre. Now losing your hard earned gear, which happened to me twice, sucked. But for some reason I kept playing and the community was great and giving my hami-downs. In fact, when word got around that I lost my gear from guildies and people I knew from other guilds, I was packing better gear that what I originally had after a few weeks thanks to community.
And the only way a community can do someting like that is if you make the enviroment and penalties harsh enough. Not insanely harsh. but harsh enough.
Hear, hear!
This is a great OP post and I agree with every thing said.
I bristle when other people say "Quailty of Life" or "convenience".
The fact is, I do not find instant travel a good quality. For me, I find the journey as rewarding as the destination. So someone else's quality-of-life is not mine, and as the OP said, the entire genre is currently saturated with games that play that way.
I remember our family guild broke into PoFear and wiped. Everyone worked all night to get back in and recover corpses. Our guild leader died twleve (!) times, some folks had to go re-level. It was terrible and awesome! That social and community effort is something I carry with me (in Real Life) as a memory today, almost two decades later.
You know what I don't remember? Rezzing wherever I want, leaving my corpse to rot, simply recovering instantly and instant traveling to where to kill some mobs. Because *THAT* isn't worth remembering!!!!!!
Parascol said:Yes, I don't expect a game that is quite as tedious and harsh as the early MMO's were, but I also don't expect the game to have the degree of the quality of life features present in modern mmo's either. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding VR's vision, their goal is to tone back all the conveniences that really hurt the social aspect of MMO's, while being mindful of not making it overly tedious. This vision is broad and could apply to a whole host of things that ultimately contributed to strong social ties and community in classic mmo's, such as death consequences, combat and downtime, epic quests, travel, trade, etc. The aggregate of all these things combined resulted in a very strong community. It was rare that I ran into someone I didn't at least recognize, because I spent a lot of time with various people either helping, or receiving help, for all kinds of game related goals. This is what excites me most about Pantheon. Forging new friendships and the feeling of being part of an actual community. I cannot do this in a game that automatically matches me with a few other players and we just blow through a dungeon in 15 minutes without saying a word to one-another, never to speak or see each other again when we are finished.I read statements from Brad McQuaid about how players who want that classic mmo experience again are currently orphaned, then launches a project to address it, and tend to associate that with what I would expect from a classic mmo. I read those statements and and have a certain degree of expectation around that, understanding that it won't be an EQ replica either. Today, there really is no viable alternative other than EQ Live or P99. Obviously, this type of gameplay is still desired by many, otherwise P99 wouldn't be thriving.
I am excited to pug with you, get to know you, then maybe help you get an item you otherwise couldn't get by yourself later down the road. I'm excited to share in your experience of putting on a rare piece of equipment that you worked your butt off to obtain. An item that everyone recognizes as a truly meaningful achievement that you can don proudly. I am excited to play a part in helping you to succeed, wehther it be as simple as buffing you in passing, or showing up every day to help you chip away at an arduous quest, or retrieve a corpse. You, an actual person that I'm not just randomly thrust into a dungeon with to have absolutely no intereation with before going our separate ways, never to see each other again.
I am excited to move into a dungeon, get my butt kicked, then see a group of higher level players in their fancy armor roll by and move toward the same area I was not quite big enough to try. I'm excited to wonder where they got that unique red breastplate that looks like nothing I had seen before, and if it was in that harder part of the dungeon I cannot do yet. I'm excited to feel a sense of pride and satisfaction when I finally get my own turn and roll past those who are lower than I am to an area they are not big enough to try.
These core tenets of classic mmo experience are what excites me. I cannot wait to team up with you in Terminus.
I find it interesting that we have both very similar and very different perspectives.
You mention random dungeon grouping - while I don't hate it, I totally agree that it led to a breakdown in interpersonal communication among players, and it's not something I'd want to see in Pantheon. That's why I'm hoping they include a tool that's a bit more like an advertising board for people to list themselves/their group and what they want to accomplish, that I can then browse (or post on) to find folk whose goals align with mine currently. Such a tool provides a level of convenience in that you don't have to hang out in one location and repeatedly spam advertisements manually in chat, without compromising on the server community aspect.
You talk about forging friendships and being a part of a community - I agree, these are great things. To be honest, I've not had any trouble experiencing such things in the other MMOs I play, but I definitely had to actively seek out those friendships and communities. It helps that as a roleplayer, my game experience comes with a built in community of other RPers - we naturally congregate and engage with each other (and for more than just RP). I'm looking forward to building this community in Pantheon (though I've not encountered any vocal RPers on this forum yet).
You mention meeting people and working together, helping others in passing, meeting shared goals - these are all great things and what I too like to experience in MMOs.
Where we differ is clearly in certain, honestly few, details. I personally don't see things like XP loss on death or the presence of an auction house in addition to player-to-player trade as contributing to this experience; instead they damage my experience.
Our goals are clearly the same, however.