Raidan said:@Khendall
Thanks for the reply - I do think not having maps adds to the challenge and virtual world.
There was no maps in EQ which you correctly stated added to the community by creating them and being more invested (enhanced virtual world feeling versus game). Even with the maps, you had to pay attention to landmarks etc until you learned the zone, even with /locs you had to pay more attention to north/south/east/west, and if you were following the loc spam, it was easy to become distracted with that. Paying attention to the surroundings makes the game “feel” more real, yes a bit of preference there - feel free to disagree.
Even today, with most people having multiple screens, it would at least cause a distraction to look at a second screen for a map, and more importantly, it wouldn’t have the GPS capability that games have today with glowing markers for your location and waypoints. So yes, there would be increased challenge with navigating and learning the world.
Also, I’ve said here plenty that I would be ok with playermade maps (cartography skill or otherwise) or droppable maps that would come with a penalty and no gps capability - they are right clickable and expand to take up most if not all the screen. Risk/reward for usage.
And lastly I agree, I would be perfectly fine with removing /loc also, and never liked that it was a panic button /loc before death to find corpse or look up /locs to find named spawn points in zone etc. and am in agreement with that point.
@Raidan
Thanks for your reply. That's a very 'romantic' point of view, but it does not fit to reality. Very few players made maps, or contributed to, 99% of players did not and just printed it and I'm not sure it can be considered as a community builder feature. When you talk about players having to pay attention etc , it is not a question of getting maps or not, it's a zone design feature mostly, high level mobs wandering around, mobs being designed for groups and not solo play, etc ... those features are still here if you have maps.
Let's be clear, I'm not for getting ingame maps that are automatically filled when you discover an area, I would like players getting the ability to craft maps ingame and add markers or draw zones on it in order to create a market for trading maps (with /loc removed from the game of course). Though I'm a bit disappointed that the 'no maps' pavlovian reaction blocking the debate on potentially cool and innovative features that could enhance exploration, communication between players and overall the feeling of true discovery.
To end this post with my own 'romantic' point of view, I'm a fan of viking history and very interested in how they did explore the world and draw maps of the seas and territories they discovered. They had no GPS, they only had few resources and tool to draw/craft approximative maps on diverse material medias, considering it as treasures, and though they are the greatest explorers in history, they discovered america, Groenland, Island, traveled in mediterranean sea, in Africa, even in the Black sea. That's what I call exploration, and (all the kept proportions) the impression I'd like to feel.
I agree. In order for their to be maps with any type of accuracy and markers of the maps location would take some sort of magic.
Khendall said:Let's be clear, I'm not for getting ingame maps that are automatically filled when you discover an area, I would like players getting the ability to craft maps ingame and add markers or draw zones on it in order to create a market for trading maps (with /loc removed from the game of course). Though I'm a bit disappointed that the 'no maps' pavlovian reaction blocking the debate on potentially cool and innovative features that could enhance exploration, communication between players and overall the feeling of true discovery.
There are only so many things they can add to the game and seemingly everyone has their pet idea that they want in their next MMO. When that idea is something that the players can do themselves outside of the game, for each other, it makes sense to leave it out of the game.
Keno Monster said:When that idea is something that the players can do themselves outside of the game, for each other, it makes sense to leave it out of the game.
Players can create guilds and manage it out of the game, and though it makes sense to create and manage it ingame.
Players can chat out the game, and though it makes sense to chat ingame.
Players can decide / dispatch / roll for loot out of the game, and though it makes sense to add support to manage it ingame.
I guess things are a little more complicated.
Khendall said:Keno Monster said:When that idea is something that the players can do themselves outside of the game, for each other, it makes sense to leave it out of the game.
Players can create guilds and manage it out of the game, and though it makes sense to create and manage it ingame.
Players can chat out the game, and though it makes sense to chat ingame.
Players can decide / dispatch / roll for loot out of the game, and though it makes sense to add support to manage it ingame.
I guess things are a little more complicated.
Thoser are core gameplay features without which the game doesn't work.
Keno Monster said:Khendall said:Keno Monster said:When that idea is something that the players can do themselves outside of the game, for each other, it makes sense to leave it out of the game.
Players can create guilds and manage it out of the game, and though it makes sense to create and manage it ingame.
Players can chat out the game, and though it makes sense to chat ingame.
Players can decide / dispatch / roll for loot out of the game, and though it makes sense to add support to manage it ingame.
I guess things are a little more complicated.
Thoser are core gameplay features without which the game doesn't work.
Sorry man, games can and did/do work without it. UO had no chat features, players were just seeing the text of characters that were around them on the screen, EQ introduced true chat (or maybe Asheron's call ? not sure). If I well remember WoW first introduced full loot support ingame, EQ required the player fully managing it, organizing rolls and the player had to go to the corpse to get it.
Core gameplay features do not exist, these are just simple gameplay features that are more or less common in the MMO industry. Basically, nearly every MMO have ingame maps, so considering your answer it would be considered as a core gameplay feature ... and it's obviously not.
Khendall said:Keno Monster said:Khendall said:Keno Monster said:When that idea is something that the players can do themselves outside of the game, for each other, it makes sense to leave it out of the game.
Players can create guilds and manage it out of the game, and though it makes sense to create and manage it ingame.
Players can chat out the game, and though it makes sense to chat ingame.
Players can decide / dispatch / roll for loot out of the game, and though it makes sense to add support to manage it ingame.
I guess things are a little more complicated.
Thoser are core gameplay features without which the game doesn't work.
Sorry man, games can and did/do work without it. UO had no chat features, players were just seeing the text of characters that were around them on the screen, EQ introduced true chat (or maybe Asheron's call ? not sure). If I well remember WoW first introduced full loot support ingame, EQ required the player fully managing it, organizing rolls and the player had to go to the corpse to get it.
Core gameplay features do not exist, these are just simple gameplay features that are more or less common in the MMO industry. Basically, nearly every MMO have ingame maps, so considering your answer it would be considered as a core gameplay feature ... and it's obviously not.
We're going to have to agree to disagree that having players be able to text chat each other in game isn't a core feature comparable to not having a map.
I stand by my original point as much as you want to dodge it. They have other things to work on. Not everyone's pet game mechanic can make it into the game. Players cannot craft boats or set up an auction stall or have different animations for every race class and weapon themselves, outside of the game. They can make maps tho.
We're going to have to agree to disagree that having players be able to text chat each other in game isn't a core feature comparable to not having a map.
I stand by my original point as much as you want to dodge it. They have other things to work on. Not everyone's pet game mechanic can make it into the game. Players cannot craft boats or set up an auction stall or have different animations for every race class and weapon themselves, outside of the game. They can make maps tho.
I'm not dodging anything, just giving facts and concrete counter-examples, I'm sorry it makes you unconfortable.
Pantheon is a game that wanna improve player interactions and make community matter, a correctly designed cartography skill could help that way increasing trade, interactions and many players seems to find this kind of ideas interesting, so maybe VR will decide not to follow your final judgment on what they have to work on or not. We are here to propose ideas, so we'll continue to propose ideas :).
Khendall said:We're going to have to agree to disagree that having players be able to text chat each other in game isn't a core feature comparable to not having a map.
I stand by my original point as much as you want to dodge it. They have other things to work on. Not everyone's pet game mechanic can make it into the game. Players cannot craft boats or set up an auction stall or have different animations for every race class and weapon themselves, outside of the game. They can make maps tho.
I'm not dodging anything, just giving facts and concrete counter-examples, I'm sorry it makes you unconfortable.
Pantheon is a game that wanna improve player interactions and make community matter, a correctly designed cartography skill could help that way increasing trade, interactions and many players seems to find this kind of ideas interesting, so maybe VR will decide not to follow your final judgment on what they have to work on or not. We are here to propose ideas, so we'll continue to propose ideas :).
They're already on the record multiple times on this subject. If they change course, they change course, but right now that's not where they are headed.