I think I have way more good memories of EQ than bad, a large part of that because of the community, which had a lot of cooperation there. Becasue of the devs, which played the game along with the players. Also, because of the difficulty. I loved finishing a quest that I had to work at, I earned the loot. I scared the crap out of myself in Lavastorm. Kithkor Forest was a zone in a league of its own, at the stroke of midnight the dead walked, and there were a lot of them. I loved the GM events every holiday. They scared the crap out me a couple times too. I don't know of any other game where the GMs intereacted with the players in this way. That and marrying players and changing their names to match. Just a totally unique game world.
During the first two years of EQ, we had a remarkable economy. Enough so that an educational survey team played EQ and followed it. I can't remember their exact quoted country, but EQ had an economy then equal to a real world country -ranking about 23rd. We, the players ran the economy. A plate chest cost 12 pp. It was nice to know that when you leveled high enough to wear it, it paid to quest and save (or train in black smithing) so that you could earn it. A bag cost 2 pp. Same thing. I recall when players attempted to jack the prices up or lower them way down, they were usually told in open chat. What we crafted was worth something and we didnt have to worry about 'The Store' putting up something as good, becasue there was no Stor at that time.
I think I have more poor memories of SW-tor, almost all based on anything having to do with the community. I was always glad I could solo there. I liked the game, still do. Little challenge though, just fun to play when I like to solo and get into the solo fights. All I can remember of Eve was getting pirated every other flight, and getting in a few of my own. I didnt like EQ2 when it first launched: mainly because of the way they treated my favorte race, the Tier'Dal, dark elves. They lost their main city and had a slum area in Freeport only. Players screamed. After about 3 redos they finally almost got the city and forest right. imo. I played Wow and that too was fun, but it was not a game world to me, only a game, and it seems there were a lot of 'kids' playing and a lot of gripping going on. Its been a long time so those memories could be a bit off.
I think that if the Dev's do what was done in EQ, and I dont mean making a copy: I mean involment with the players, constant tweaking to adjust things as they enter the game, and holding a level of difficulty similar to EQ's thenI will be a very happy player. All Imo.
I remember quite well najeena, lvls 1-10 just running around in commonlands murdering stuff in the most boring way left and right, the horror that was raiding levels in a world full of poopsockers and severely limited content, the imbalance between separate classes with the same role like ranger vs. rogue, the imbalance between epic quests, the imbalance between the tradeskills, high levels camp stealing, and open world pvp groups running rampant..... etc....
fortunately all of these EQ problems are being addressed at least halfway by now I think=)
Good points by all.. I'm guilty of it..however there are things I'd want eliminated from all MMO's forever
1. Corpse runs.. i don't care how fun they can be, sure the occational one is difficult but please.. lets evolve.. games have changed
2. Slow gameplay - fun at times, but annoying at other.. as in Beat on a mob doing 5dmg of 5000000000hp.. it barely hurts you but takes forever to kill.. this is stupd shouldn't happen minus raids/grouped.
3. 1on1 - used to be fun, but when you're solo it's so much more fun to take on a few mobs at once... I trule loved the DAOC system where you'd get extra xp for the risk.
4. MANA/HP regen slow af - Im old and don't have time for that.. there's a good balance.. but eq1 sitting with that book.. dude.. i couldn't handle that again ever
5. Click to cast - I acutally would like to keep this.. instead of chain/pre determined spells.. lets us click/key press each one. Makes each decision important.... As a healer how many times did you say, "oh sht, i shouldn't have casted that stun" in favor of a quick heal.. this is very important i think
6 Slow Travel - I'm sorry this might be again the community... there should be no new mmo that doesn't have a way for fast travel. It helps the economy and sets specific class abilities.... Running should be the very last option if you're either poor as fk or just want to see the sites.
7 Dead Zones - There were plenty of EQ zones that just exsisted for some random quest... They should have been outright eliminated. I call that bloat and useless.. don't make it feel like a grind for the f of it.
there are more.. i've run my own eqemu servers with custom content, lore, custom classes. etc.. what ultimately brings people back to a game is the community.. slowing things down AKA nostalgia gaming.. just isn't viable anymore unless you're solely looking to create a nitch game with not much upside.. it needs to change, be dynamic and community driven.
Jahosphat said:Good points by all.. I'm guilty of it..however there are things I'd want eliminated from all MMO's forever
1. Corpse runs.. i don't care how fun they can be, sure the occational one is difficult but please.. lets evolve.. games have changed
2. Slow gameplay - fun at times, but annoying at other.. as in Beat on a mob doing 5dmg of 5000000000hp.. it barely hurts you but takes forever to kill.. this is stupd shouldn't happen minus raids/grouped.
3. 1on1 - used to be fun, but when you're solo it's so much more fun to take on a few mobs at once... I trule loved the DAOC system where you'd get extra xp for the risk.
4. MANA/HP regen slow af - Im old and don't have time for that.. there's a good balance.. but eq1 sitting with that book.. dude.. i couldn't handle that again ever
5. Click to cast - I acutally would like to keep this.. instead of chain/pre determined spells.. lets us click/key press each one. Makes each decision important.... As a healer how many times did you say, "oh sht, i shouldn't have casted that stun" in favor of a quick heal.. this is very important i think
6 Slow Travel - I'm sorry this might be again the community... there should be no new mmo that doesn't have a way for fast travel. It helps the economy and sets specific class abilities.... Running should be the very last option if you're either poor as fk or just want to see the sites.
7 Dead Zones - There were plenty of EQ zones that just exsisted for some random quest... They should have been outright eliminated. I call that bloat and useless.. don't make it feel like a grind for the f of it.
there are more.. i've run my own eqemu servers with custom content, lore, custom classes. etc.. what ultimately brings people back to a game is the community.. slowing things down AKA nostalgia gaming.. just isn't viable anymore unless you're solely looking to create a nitch game with not much upside.. it needs to change, be dynamic and community driven.
Wait ? Why choosing Pantheon over any mmo that has already thoses "easy fast" features included ?
MauvaisOeil said:Jahosphat said:Good points by all.. I'm guilty of it..however there are things I'd want eliminated from all MMO's forever
1. Corpse runs.. i don't care how fun they can be, sure the occational one is difficult but please.. lets evolve.. games have changed
2. Slow gameplay - fun at times, but annoying at other.. as in Beat on a mob doing 5dmg of 5000000000hp.. it barely hurts you but takes forever to kill.. this is stupd shouldn't happen minus raids/grouped.
3. 1on1 - used to be fun, but when you're solo it's so much more fun to take on a few mobs at once... I trule loved the DAOC system where you'd get extra xp for the risk.
4. MANA/HP regen slow af - Im old and don't have time for that.. there's a good balance.. but eq1 sitting with that book.. dude.. i couldn't handle that again ever
5. Click to cast - I acutally would like to keep this.. instead of chain/pre determined spells.. lets us click/key press each one. Makes each decision important.... As a healer how many times did you say, "oh sht, i shouldn't have casted that stun" in favor of a quick heal.. this is very important i think
6 Slow Travel - I'm sorry this might be again the community... there should be no new mmo that doesn't have a way for fast travel. It helps the economy and sets specific class abilities.... Running should be the very last option if you're either poor as fk or just want to see the sites.
7 Dead Zones - There were plenty of EQ zones that just exsisted for some random quest... They should have been outright eliminated. I call that bloat and useless.. don't make it feel like a grind for the f of it.
there are more.. i've run my own eqemu servers with custom content, lore, custom classes. etc.. what ultimately brings people back to a game is the community.. slowing things down AKA nostalgia gaming.. just isn't viable anymore unless you're solely looking to create a nitch game with not much upside.. it needs to change, be dynamic and community driven.
Wait ? Why choosing Pantheon over any mmo that has already thoses "easy fast" features included ?
Why is this always the argument against someone that doesn't want an extremely slow game.
There are a ton of reasons why he could choose pantheon above other games.
He mentioned he doesn't want solo play. Pantheon is largely group focused. He might like the lore, or the view/ feel of the game.
He also could be willing to play a game that has corpse runs. Just not enjoy them.
I mean really, when looking at his post the only item he said he doesn't want that we know for a fact is in the game is corpse runs.
I don't really see the need to "push" someone to another game because they don't like corpse runs. (No one likes corpse runs, they like the difficulty it adds to the game)
@Porygon thanks
There are a ton of reasons why im looking/commited to this.
1) Art - I absolutely hate the cartoony look of modern mmo's... i don't know why people love that.. even since WOW i've hated it
2) CLASSES that matter. EQ introduced class defining abilities... modern mmo's have completely killed this idea
3) Grouping that have an impact - group composition, rolling, real bards... love it..
there are more reasons but ill spare u
Lyaelan said:I'm worried that we're being a bit too nostalgic. Corpse runs were just plain awful. Deleveling was just plain awful.
I agree completely. The broader "MMO community" (could expand this out to video games in general) gets weirdly religious about "the old days". Progress, no matter how beneficial, is railed against by a vocal number of fundamentalists, and developers feel pressured to cater to them. This was seen in WildStar's original raiding paradigm, which was structured around idealized memories of Burning Crusade-era WoW, complete with attunements and large raid numbers. When it came time to actually do it, these features became sources of complaint rather than banner features. The same is happening with BFA's "war mode". Players railed against Blizzard's reduction of open world PvP. They begged for a return to a sense of danger and fighting against other players while questing through zones. So Blizzard introduced War Mode and player response was, unsurprisingly, negative. Players don't actually want what they call for.
As a side note, I am extremely interested in how many people will actually stick with Classic WoW when that gets released. I'm sure many will log in for a few months to "relive" their memories, but I would be very surprised if many stay.
Specifically toward Pantheon, I'm concerned that there is too much resistance in the community toward features that, in my opinion, improve the game experience but are considered by some as cancers from more "modern" MMOs. I would argue that things like a minimap, not losing xp/money/items on death, in-depth costume/dye systems, timers to trade gear dropped in an instance with others, LFG tools, and others are all features that were created to fill needs and address valid complaints regarding game design, and an MMO that lacks in any of them is choosing to play on false nostalgia rather than deliver good design.
I have good and bad memories from my life. I don't have nostalgia for bad things that happened to me, go figure?
I'm sick and tired of hearing people call nostalgic feelings invalid. Somehow, in a video game for entertainment, where literally every measure of why one would enjoy it is completely subjective, people are united in that nostalgia is not a valid reason. I'm nostalgic for good MMORPGs because sadly they are only a good memory and currently do not exist. If a good MMORPG existed, it wouldn't have to be nostalgia or a memory but something in the here and now.
Spluffen said:Somehow, in a video game for entertainment, where literally every measure of why one would enjoy it is completely subjective, people are united in that nostalgia is not a valid reason. I'm nostalgic for good MMORPGs because sadly they are only a good memory and currently do not exist. If a good MMORPG existed, it wouldn't have to be nostalgia or a memory but something in the here and now.
You're very right in that what someone enjoys is entirely subjective. I would argue that it isn't that no good MMORPGs exist; it's just that you don't like the ones that are around. To many people, they are quite good - or at least have good qualities alongside their bad. There are definitely things I don't like about current MMOs on the market and definitely things I love very much. And of course there's the old adage of nothing is perfect. xD
I think we can get a bit objective when addressing game design, however. If something drives away more players than it attracts, that would be objectively bad for a game's bottom line. Alas, the only people who see those specific numbers are the devs themselves, so it's a bit hard for us to talk about it beyond vague debates.
Naunet said:I would argue that it isn't that no good MMORPGs exist; it's just that you don't like the ones that are around.
Yes, obviously. Subjective, as it were. My point was more that because there are no MMORPGs that are good/in the style that I enjoy, I have no choice but to be nostalgic about that style of game. It is, after all, in the past.
Jahosphat said:@Porygon thanks
There are a ton of reasons why im looking/commited to this.
1) Art - I absolutely hate the cartoony look of modern mmo's... i don't know why people love that.. even since WOW i've hated it
2) CLASSES that matter. EQ introduced class defining abilities... modern mmo's have completely killed this idea
3) Grouping that have an impact - group composition, rolling, real bards... love it..
there are more reasons but ill spare u
Thanks for your answers, I still feel odd to choose a game that was advertised as "old school" with looking for a lot of shortcuts here. Most of the chores you cited earlier are consequences or needs to make aspects of the game meaningfull :
-Hurting death and Corpse runs imply cautious and team focused play
-Longs travels imply meaningfull choices of destination, avaliability of specific bosses and encounters over the same timeframe
-Difficulty of ennemies encourage teamplay and synergy over the slowish solo route, most mmo's dropped this since WoW era.
-Slow regen force players to rely on healers more than on food / breaks, while it was maybe a bit too slow in Early EQ, it means you will have benefit teaming with a player even if he does little damage, because the breakdown is important to fill, and because your battle efficiency will vary depending of a class, but you need a good average of defense, offense, and healing to overcome each one's lack in one or the other.
Of course theses looks like chores, sometimes, or looking back at the worst moment we have, but they are the assets that make the whole chain work.
@Porygon : Thanks for speaking for others but I'm sure they are all adults and can talk alike, explaining their reasons !
Naunet said:Quite true! I think the original statement in this thread wasn't necessarily that nostalgia was bad per se, but that a lot of the things people get "nostalgic" about went the way of the dinosaurs for good reason.
I see! That's probably true, a lot of them at least went away due to popular demand. For me, though, it seems like a dangerous prospect. Like @MauvaisOeil stated, I think a lot of the things which are undoubtedly painful and/or tedious are things that tie the game together, they make the good things in the game worthwhile and exciting. If I think back to world of warcraft which I used to like when it was up my alley, there was a lot of popular demand that led to the dungeon finder being implemented. To everyone it seemed very convenient and nice but unfortunately it had dire consequences on the game and took it in a direction where people wouldn't want to talk to each other, hence people being too bad at playing and promtping blizzard to make all the dungeons easier. A very nice and convenient feature almost single handedly killed off the community and the challenge of dungeons. Of course it also made it so one never had any idea where a dungeon actually was since it teleported you there.
MauvaisOeil said:Thanks for your answers, I still feel odd to choose a game that was advertised as "old school" with looking for a lot of shortcuts here. Most of the chores you cited earlier are consequences or needs to make aspects of the game meaningfull :
-Hurting death and Corpse runs imply cautious and team focused play
-Longs travels imply meaningfull choices of destination, avaliability of specific bosses and encounters over the same timeframe
-Difficulty of ennemies encourage teamplay and synergy over the slowish solo route, most mmo's dropped this since WoW era.
-Slow regen force players to rely on healers more than on food / breaks, while it was maybe a bit too slow in Early EQ, it means you will have benefit teaming with a player even if he does little damage, because the breakdown is important to fill, and because your battle efficiency will vary depending of a class, but you need a good average of defense, offense, and healing to overcome each one's lack in one or the other.
Of course theses looks like chores, sometimes, or looking back at the worst moment we have, but they are the assets that make the whole chain work.
@Porygon : Thanks for speaking for others but I'm sure they are all adults and can talk alike, explaining their reasons !
I'll play.
Hurting death and corpse runs creates players that are willing to run at the first sense of danger, even that means ruining others day by training them. A group centric game creates group focused play. You dont need artificial mechanics to do that.
Long travel limits the amount of group invites you will receive due to groups wanting someone who is closer rather than further. Unless you're the only healer online. You are only going to get invited by groups close to your location. Long travel will have zero effect on raiding. So the bosses comment is negligible.
Difficulty of enemies. He never spoke to difficulty, he spoke to easy enemies with a lot of hp. There's no reason to have a tank and spank fight for 40 mins. This has nothing to do with difficulty.
Slow regen: I honestly have no idea where you're going with this. Since he said eq1 was too slow but never stated he wanted a wow style system. I think nearly everyone would agree that eq1 was painfully slow at times. As far as group composition and such. You can make the best group ever in terms of classes. But if you find the only healer available and they aren't that good. Or undergeared. You are severally limited by that 1 person. I dont think it should be eating/drinking like wow, but a middle ground.
Again, you're questioning someone for choosing a game. He's given you reasons, and you still question him. My response was purely fueled by this communities lack of understanding someone's view of it differs from their own. The first time someone says they want fast travel or instances, people tell them to go find another game. Not a great welcome. Not a great start to a long lasting game.
Think before you comment. And you'll find more people sticking around, which ultimately means a more rich, longer lasting game for all of us.
Spluffen said:I see! That's probably true, a lot of them at least went away due to popular demand. For me, though, it seems like a dangerous prospect. Like @MauvaisOeil stated, I think a lot of the things which are undoubtedly painful and/or tedious are things that tie the game together, they make the good things in the game worthwhile and exciting. If I think back to world of warcraft which I used to like when it was up my alley, there was a lot of popular demand that led to the dungeon finder being implemented. To everyone it seemed very convenient and nice but unfortunately it had dire consequences on the game and took it in a direction where people wouldn't want to talk to each other, hence people being too bad at playing and promtping blizzard to make all the dungeons easier. A very nice and convenient feature almost single handedly killed off the community and the challenge of dungeons. Of course it also made it so one never had any idea where a dungeon actually was since it teleported you there.
The dungeon finder was introduced because of a severe discrepancy in population amongst servers. You would have servers where there were 10k horde players and 1k alliance. It's really hard to find groups when there's 200 other people playing. This is also why the cross realm bgs were implemented.
The side effect of the dungeon finder wasn't that it created bad players. It allowed bad players to gear up quickly, which in turn made them feel like they were ready to raid. Because these bad players and casual players now had pre raid bis, the obvious next step is raiding. However the raiding in wow was actually difficult for quite some time, so eventually due to the demand from the majority of their paying customers and the various reasons (want to see lore, want to experience the full game) blizzard started making multiple difficulties of encounters, with very little change between the gear that was won. Eventually this lead to the LFR system and the like.
It wasn't the dungeon finder that caused the raids and dungeons in wow to be watered down. It was blizzard deciding to cater to the 90% as opposed to the 10%.
Which from a business standpoint is the right thing to do.
Porygon said:I'll play.
Hurting death and corpse runs creates players that are willing to run at the first sense of danger, even that means ruining others day by training them. A group centric game creates group focused play. You dont need artificial mechanics to do that.
Long travel limits the amount of group invites you will receive due to groups wanting someone who is closer rather than further. Unless you're the only healer online. You are only going to get invited by groups close to your location. Long travel will have zero effect on raiding. So the bosses comment is negligible.
Difficulty of enemies. He never spoke to difficulty, he spoke to easy enemies with a lot of hp. There's no reason to have a tank and spank fight for 40 mins. This has nothing to do with difficulty.
Slow regen: I honestly have no idea where you're going with this. Since he said eq1 was too slow but never stated he wanted a wow style system. I think nearly everyone would agree that eq1 was painfully slow at times. As far as group composition and such. You can make the best group ever in terms of classes. But if you find the only healer available and they aren't that good. Or undergeared. You are severally limited by that 1 person. I dont think it should be eating/drinking like wow, but a middle ground.
Again, you're questioning someone for choosing a game. He's given you reasons, and you still question him. My response was purely fueled by this communities lack of understanding someone's view of it differs from their own. The first time someone says they want fast travel or instances, people tell them to go find another game. Not a great welcome. Not a great start to a long lasting game.
Think before you comment. And you'll find more people sticking around, which ultimately means a more rich, longer lasting game for all of us.
Thanks for answering, it really seems you never know when to stop, but that's alright. That's your freedom.
1)The CR Matter creates realstic behavior, where danger is considered. Not because you fear for your life, but for the consequences of death. We can debate a hundred hours over the same point, some liked it, some didn't. Obviously wether you did or not like it, you still advocate against it, which leads me to assume you didn't. Playing and planning cautiously is the difference between early times MMO's (I'd even add Early wow in this, back in the first 5 years the game included a lot of planning to manage packs un dungeon, making classes withouth CC undersirable, however the punishment of death was nearly inexistent except disappointment). If you don't have penalities for failing, there are little chances you will react and adapt your playstyle to avoid failure.
2) Long travel has an impact on community spread and group issues, that's a truth. Short travels has an impact on replayability, immersion, class interpendancy, and contest of objectives. Which one is better ? I prefer long travels and I've already voiced my opinion concerning thoses, then it's a matter of perspective : What do you consider a priority, for your own good.
3) Difficulty.. ehm, I'll just requote this guy's words : "3. 1on1 - used to be fun, but when you're solo it's so much more fun to take on a few mobs at once... I trule loved the DAOC system where you'd get extra xp for the risk."
I really can't see to see why you're putting 40min tank and spank there, maybe you just missed the subject.
4) I've stated where I was going in the very post you quoted: Making another class cover your health regen creates interpendancy. I don't think I need to say much, I consider the health's regen is made to be done by healers, wether they are bad (and should improved) or good. I mean, if any played role is played "bad", you're hindered (either in threat/damage mitigation, damage, heals, or controls), why shouldn't it be true with healers ? Just because it's the limitating factor for most classes (especially melees) doesn't mean it should be reduced to ease soloing.
Of course I'm questionning someone's choice, because I'm curious about how he ended interested in pantheon while showing a genuine interest for mechanics that aren't announced or might be contrary to the overall spirit of the game. The difference is it was a genuine interest on which you jumped for some reason. Then I got my answer and stated why I considered thoses chores as playing a big role in the game overall success and immersion.
Well then you Porygoned again, hence my more elaborate answer.
I'll keep a bookmark on this excellent lesson of community approach, even if I feel it's quite ironic for now, It can allways be usefull.
MauvaisOeil said:
Thanks for answering, it really seems you never know when to stop, but that's alright. That's your freedom.
Well then you Porygoned again, hence my more elaborate answer.
I'll keep a bookmark on this excellent lesson of community approach, even if I feel it's quite ironic for now, It can allways be usefull.
This is some of the most comical words ever written. Given "our" history.
It doesn't matter why you are curious about his reasons. The approach you took was. Why play pantheon when you can play any other game. That's a terrible approach. I don't care if you dont like the way I discuss topics. And honestly, I didn't even read your actual replies.
You asked him for reasons, he gave you THREE actual decent reasons why he wants this game. And you decided to explain why his original statements are wrong, and again question why he wants to play.
He literally just told you.
You quoted it.
Porygon said:It wasn't the dungeon finder that caused the raids and dungeons in wow to be watered down. It was blizzard deciding to cater to the 90% as opposed to the 10%.
Which from a business standpoint is the right thing to do.
Yes, like I said; popular demand. I'm definitely not arguing that Blizzard did anything bad from a business standpoint, they are well successful. Its a dangerous prospect from the perspective of my own taste in games. Maybe I should have added another !!THIS IS MY SUBJECTIVE OPINION!!-disclaimer to that conversation, maybe three weren't enough.
MauvaisOeil said:1)The CR Matter creates realstic behavior, where danger is considered. Not because you fear for your life, but for the consequences of death. We can debate a hundred hours over the same point, some liked it, some didn't. Obviously wether you did or not like it, you still advocate against it, which leads me to assume you didn't. Playing and planning cautiously is the difference between early times MMO's (I'd even add Early wow in this, back in the first 5 years the game included a lot of planning to manage packs un dungeon, making classes withouth CC undersirable, however the punishment of death was nearly inexistent except disappointment). If you don't have penalities for failing, there are little chances you will react and adapt your playstyle to avoid failure.
When it comes to death penalties, I think erring on the side of relaxed is better for group play. If everyone is afraid of dying, you end up with a horribly toxic playerbase that quits at the first sign of trouble because no one wants to risk the penalties of death. It also means very few will be willing to try truly challenging fights - and will likely kick/harrass players for slight mistakes, as a wipe would punish everyone severely. In terms of game design, it encourages easier encounters, so that players can avoid the risks of death.
If death penalties are light (say, just having to find your body, maybe taking a little bit of durability loss on your gear), people will be more than happy to throw themselves at a challenging encounter until they figure it out. While you'll still have those special someones who rage at others for mistakes, it's far easier to sift them out.
I like my challenge to come from the bosses/encounters themselves, not from being terrified of dying.
Naunet said:I like my challenge to come from the bosses/encounters themselves, not from being terrified of dying.
This is confusing. There is absolutely no challenge at all if there isn't a fear of failure/dying.
A thing can be as hard as it wants, but if you can't fail at it, what's the point? Otherwise it's like joining a race when you're the only contender. That's not a race - that's called practice.
Also: people weren't afraid of dying or taking reasonable risks in EQ where corpse runs and lost exp could cost hours of time. They certainly didn't up and run from any bump in the road/sign of trouble, most groups I remember only ran for the zone after a few people in the group had already died and it was clearly a lost cause or if a massive train tagged along with a pull.
You can't take away the risk and keep the same level of challenge. The difference would be like taking two people who have never walked a tightrope and having one walk 50 feet across two single story houses with no safety nets and the other doing the same but with a net. The former has to really earn it because if they fall they will get injured (or die) and odds are they will not be able to attempt again upon failure until they heal/refocus themselves and practice a lot, while the latter just pops right back up and goes again and again until sure enough they manage to get across (in far less time than the first person) with not a scratch on them. The second doesn't even need to really learn or build skill and can rely entirely on dumb luck if they wanted.
Tralyan said:This is confusing. There is absolutely no challenge at all if there isn't a fear of failure/dying.A thing can be as hard as it wants, but if you can't fail at it, what's the point? Otherwise it's like joining a race when you're the only contender. That's not a race - that's called practice.
The point is to challenge yourself with the mechanics of an encounter. I disagree completely that you need to fear failure. I enjoy many of the most challenging raid encounters I've had the pleasure of working on in WildStar; fearing death did not play one iota into the challenge or my enjoyment.
Fearing death isn't challenge. The mechanics are what bring challenge.
Naunet said:Tralyan said:This is confusing. There is absolutely no challenge at all if there isn't a fear of failure/dying.A thing can be as hard as it wants, but if you can't fail at it, what's the point? Otherwise it's like joining a race when you're the only contender. That's not a race - that's called practice.
The point is to challenge yourself with the mechanics of an encounter. I disagree completely that you need to fear failure. I enjoy many of the most challenging raid encounters I've had the pleasure of working on in WildStar; fearing death did not play one iota into the challenge or my enjoyment.
Fearing death isn't challenge. The mechanics are what bring challenge.
This exactly. Wow was exponentially more challenging than eq1 raids. And there was 0 fear of death.
Besides, once every cleric had an epic, no raids feared death. It was a negligible exp loss, and when most people were playing with 90/10 into aas it never really mattered.
Spluffen said:Porygon said:It wasn't the dungeon finder that caused the raids and dungeons in wow to be watered down. It was blizzard deciding to cater to the 90% as opposed to the 10%.
Which from a business standpoint is the right thing to do.
Yes, like I said; popular demand. I'm definitely not arguing that Blizzard did anything bad from a business standpoint, they are well successful. Its a dangerous prospect from the perspective of my own taste in games. Maybe I should have added another !!THIS IS MY SUBJECTIVE OPINION!!-disclaimer to that conversation, maybe three weren't enough.
Yea, sorry. I understand it's your opinion, but you implied that the dungeon finder was created by popular demand (which is wrong, the minority on the smallest servers were the ones crying out for it). And that it caused players to become bad (it didn't, it just facilitated the bad players into getting more gear). You were implying the lack of communication due to the dungeon finder ruined the game, that's definitely a valid opinion.. but there were tons of people who DID communicate in the harder upper level dungeons. It didn't affect the decisions blizzard made.