Rosy retrospection is an innate human cognitive bias that we all experience for our own mental preservation. I think designing a game with this in mind can only serve to benefit both the gamer and the developer. Incorporating appropriate bits of content which plucks the strings of our 'nostalgia feels' is a low hanging fruit devs can use as a gateway to get us hooked. Once we are in, we can experience the new world you guys are creating in all of its glory irrespective of nostalgia. Take a look at some of the most popular EDM/Hip-hop/etc. musical remixes. Most of these popular songs have hooks and clips from older songs that snags the ears of the listener making the rest of the song that much more enjoyable.
I don't suppress the bad memories, I embrace them. Like some others here, I am a believer in the yin and yang. That you need the bad to truly feel the good.
I wasn't laughing when I was camping orcs in the commonlands and a high level Griffon swooped in and started one shotting my group. I wasn't giddy camping dervs in Ro to have a sand giant wiping our group, or camping caimen in Oasis to have Lockjaw spawn and eat me up. No fun was had diing and having to do a long painful cr. I don't remember the DING sound because it was a creative sound someone made up, I remember it because I rarely heard it so it meant something when I finally did. I remember my epic weapon not because it was shiny or made me godlike, I remember it because of the massive time it took. All those mob camping days and group helps and raids, I thought I would never get it....but I did.
EQ was a long, grueling and often painful experience at times, but I could talk your ear off for hours and hours of stories and memories. I have very small sample of that for Vanguard. The other dozens of MMOs...not a single story or memory. To me, that speaks volumes.
My nostalgia doesn't come from the bad times, but it does come from persevering thru those bad times until I cam out the other end victoriously. For sure it's what the genre needs. If I was developing a game, would I want a game that people told stories about for hours on end 20 years later or a game people can't recall anything about it 5 yrs later. The genre needs to find out what people are nostalgic about then try to find out why, so they can try to recreate those feelings.
Nostalgia to me is remembering fondly grandma’s cookies as the best, when most likely they were above average. Or, remebering fondly the nostalgia vibes and experiences I get when hearing the Kelethin theme song or EQ theme song. Basically some trigger that invokes positive memories.
Nostalgia to me does not include game mechanics, even if those mechanics created nostalgic moments. The mechanics are either good/bad or good/poorly designed etc. And, I don’t think it’s any secret at this point that I don’t think any mechanic or experience should be dismissed from being used due to nostalgia - I want them judged and tested on their ability to create a virtual world. And, I think MMOs have suffered for years due to drifting away from mechanics that many dismiss as ancient or only being liked due to nostalgia.
With that said, I’m a firm believer in Yin/Yang. That it is the challenging mechanics that create the nostalgic moments (positive experiences).
In regards to the posed CM question, I do believe when reflecting people often discuss the positive experiences that occurred as a result of the mechanics argued to be favored due to nostalgia - and rarely discuss (or surpress) the bad memories, but I’d argue the nostalgic moments/memories wouldn’t occur without the mechanics.
Yes, it exists Kilson. We definately do favor the good memories and conveniantly subdue the less good ones unless forced to think back on some events. Is it good or bad for the genre? It is a very necessary evil that this happens. To critically think about what makes an event so traumatic that it becomes a memory that lasts for decades is essential to the health of a genre. I see them as something not to be repeated but instead taken to the next level with fresh mechanics and new concepts vs rehashing a "been there done that" situation.
Its a new decade, Hell, It's a new millenia since EQ; what was as near bleeding edge in...1999 ( slash commands come to mind and 400x 600 graphics on a CGI card) have almost certainly been made obsolete by now. Nostalgia for the / command, ok I buy that. Is it the best way in 2018 to do business? No. Sitting in a single town, not out exploring because you have to sell off some inventory by yelling in /city chat... yeah, nostalgia, I buy that too. Is it the best way to do business, hell no. Using 6 CDs to install a game, hmm nobody has nostalgic moments there? I remember how "challenging" it was to use 5 1/4" floppies in an Apple 2+ to run a game called Wizardryl. Nostalgia is fine, don't let it get in the way of modernization.
Face it as much as there is hate for anything ideologically new that can out after say ooohhhh November 2004, there are some really good innovations that really have become QoL situations that those rose colored glasses argue against due to only the good memories shining thru. The wisdom is knowing that some of the innovations did not improve the community, and maybe did harm it. The challenge is to use these QoL things anyway, but alter the mechanics so that they enhance the community.
Summery; Nostalgia exists, figure out why it existed then aim to create brand new mechanics and innovative twists to old ones to outshine ancient nostalgic moments.
azaya said:This exactly, no one loved these things but without them the Nostalgia we have for EQ would not exist. The COST to remove them is too high.
But to answer the question, I think perhaps we do favor good memories and perhaps this is what the Genre needs. To find the context within which those good memories existed. If your from EQ, you likely have many good memories of getting out of situations you hated.
-Az
Yup
All the tough elements from old MMORPG's are what made them great. Corpse runs were a pain in the butt to us all, but that intense feeling of sneaking by a bunch of mobs just to get close enough to grab your corpse and run out before dying again was the thrill of survival. Seeing "Train" yelled across local chat meant incoming doom so escaping one might have been annoying, but it was also exciting at the same time. Tryng to run through a zone to meet up with your friends on the other side of the world, praying you wouldn't agro something along the way and die in the middle of a dark forest where you might never find your corpse again. Those memories will always stay with me.
If Pantheon can provide that kind of intensity for new players as well as the old ones will be amazing. Players today are much better and try to burn through content like an old bottle of boons farm wine. VC will need to make every corner of Terminus a thankless place, full of terrors and NPC's so challenging they'll bring mboxers to their knees begging for mercy, and of course THEY'LL FIND NONE!! muhahahahahahhaha.....NYAHH! NYAHHHHHH!!.......sorry I got carried away there.
Anyway, the memories they are strong :D
clepius77 said:It's been 15-19 years for a lot of us since we played EverQuest & the nostalgia blinders are powerful. The major bad mechanics people are bringing up here are: corpse runs & associated experiance loss, slow travel, trains. I hated these when they hit me back in '99, and I hate them today sometimes playing P99. But when I take a step back and consider the impact these mechanics have I feel they're essential to the experience.
Corpse runs suck, they can take hours to recover from. A wipe can end a group when some folks decide they'll deal with it tomorrow. But I don't get the same thrill of victory in other games when I eek out a win in EQ. The greater the risk, the sweeter the reward. If I know I'll respawn at the zone entrance with the rest of the group and just need to repair my gear a little more when we're done I can shrug it off. In EQ I white knuckle the movement keys toward the nearest exit.
Trains are unfair since it's not your fault. But it's a price that has to be paid if you want an open world where everyone plays together. I'd prefer being frustrated that the camp I want is already taken then being handed my own copy of the dungeon. The loot from that would feel like a participation trophy. The world "feels" more alive if I can zone into a dungeon and shout I'm looking for a group. And it feels like I'm a small part of a living world vs being the chosen one.
Slow travel means the world "feels" big. If you can get a wiz/dru to teleport you great, though you'll pay for the convenience and definitely hoof it 3 zones away without blinking. I feel that Plane of Knowledge in EQ killed something about the game by shrinking the world down. Now almost everything was connected via a relatively short walk and it ruins the immersion.
So while all of these things are objectively negative they really do breathe some danger, frustration, and life into the game. If you take away risk you're left with a slot machine with pretty colors that always rewards you.
Thank you clepius77, you summed up pretty much exactly how I feel.
Saved me time trying to decipher my feelings (Ewww) about the things in question.
Tal
Kilsin said:Nostalgia - Are we favouring the good memories while suppressing the bad memories we had of past MMORPGs and is that hurting the genre or is this what the genre needs? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
This is the hardest question you ever asked Kilsin . I have been asking myself the same question for a few years and to be frank my answer is still "I don't know ."
I clearly feel an emotion when I see a screen shot, hear a music (Qeynos, Kelethin) or see a youtube from EQ . I almost always associate these elements with personal memories (some are good and some are bad so that this distinction good/bad is apparently irrelevant for my subconsciousness) therefore I somehow identify . I also noticed that it works only with Classic and in a lesser degree Kunark . I feel absolutely no emotion when it's Luclin, PoP or LDoN . So I still wonder what is the cause and where it comes from .
I suspect but am not 100% sure that these emotions have little to nothing to do with the actual EQ gameplay . One important reason , perhaps the most important , is that this was the first time I really felt immersed in a virtual world and what was surely contributing was that EQ had apparently gone for maximizing immersion and minimizing progress speed . This experience was unique and the first one . I have been reading books, watching movies but this time I was inside a fantasy world, moving, talking with people and acting and this experience must have been so strong that it left indelible traces . Later on this feeling wore off , things became less mysterious and exhilarating and what stayed was mainly a grindy often boring routine so that I also left around LDoN like everybody .
These are only speculation trying to understand the why of my own emotions . Finally what I think most probable is that this "nostalgia" is rooted in a subconscious will to relive the same strong emotions like in 1999-2000 . And it is of course impossible because there cannot be 2 first times . In this case the answer on your question would be "neither nor" .
Go play on the latest EQ TLP server and try to get your VP key completed. Then come back here and tell us how much you love "open world contested content".
Go try to level without using instances of the zones. Then come back and tell us how much you think "instances ruin the social aspect of the game".
Go grind in Chardok or Sebilis from 57-60 in PUG groups without spending cash on xp potions. Then come back and tell us how much you love "working for your levels".
Go play a caster class other than enchanter without the new mana regen potions. Then come back and tell us how much you love "downtime between kills".
Go play a Rogue or other unwanted class to 60. Then come back and tell us how much you love "unbalanced classes that rely on groups".
Go play any class other than Enchanter with a charm pet. Then come back and tell us "it's ok if some classes are more powerful than others".
nscheffel said:Go play on the latest EQ TLP server and try to get your VP key completed. Then come back here and tell us how much you love "open world contested content".
Go try to level without using instances of the zones. Then come back and tell us how much you think "instances ruin the social aspect of the game".
Go grind in Chardok or Sebilis from 57-60 in PUG groups without spending cash on xp potions. Then come back and tell us how much you love "working for your levels".
Go play a caster class other than enchanter without the new mana regen potions. Then come back and tell us how much you love "downtime between kills".
Go play a Rogue or other unwanted class to 60. Then come back and tell us how much you love "unbalanced classes that rely on groups".
Go play any class other than Enchanter with a charm pet. Then come back and tell us "it's ok if some classes are more powerful than others".
I don't need to. I did all of that the first time in EQ, minus the Enchanter part. It was alot more fun than any of the modern MMOs. Rogues are all I play. Ever. In any MMO.
nscheffel said:Go play on the latest EQ TLP server and try to get your VP key completed. Then come back here and tell us how much you love "open world contested content".
Go try to level without using instances of the zones. Then come back and tell us how much you think "instances ruin the social aspect of the game".
Go grind in Chardok or Sebilis from 57-60 in PUG groups without spending cash on xp potions. Then come back and tell us how much you love "working for your levels".
Go play a caster class other than enchanter without the new mana regen potions. Then come back and tell us how much you love "downtime between kills".
Go play a Rogue or other unwanted class to 60. Then come back and tell us how much you love "unbalanced classes that rely on groups".
Go play any class other than Enchanter with a charm pet. Then come back and tell us "it's ok if some classes are more powerful than others".
I've played EQ back in 1999, I've played p99 and tried two of the recent TLP servers...
The TLPs are utter utter trash; p99 where I worked for my levels and I wasn't compelled by social pressure or desire to be max level asap to buy XP pots was vastly more enjoyable - hell levels and all. Original EQ where it was even harder and was vastly more populated was even more fun despite all the bugs and other issues.
I even had 3 friends from DoTA all younger than me (they're in their early 20s only having played WoW) try p99 and they all reached somewhere between level 40-55 and enjoyed it immensley and are looking forward to pantheon, they too found the TLP to hold little charm and become boring fast.
The TLP is just a watered down mess - EQ combat etc is dull, the only reason (in my opinion) it's so enjoyable to play on p99 is because of the grind, the corpse runs the general feel/atmosphere and time it takes. The TLP removes almost all of it and just leaves you with some dull combat and tank and spank raid bosses along with a cash shop.
He's not wrong. Mmos are a different game nowadays because of the playerbase and player mentality has largely shifted.
Even though the TLPs are not a perfect recreation of EQ, it's still fundamentally the same game with the same problems. If EQ was first created in 2018, you would see similar issues that you see on the TLPs once people discovered which zones were best and where the best gear was etc.
I also dont think people really cherish the 8 deaths and 4 hour corpse run they needed to undergo when they died at chef in sebilis, but more so the excitement around finding help or actually completing the task. So the nostalgia in my mind is more so for the success you finally have and the excitement stemming from that, more so than the hardships and bad mechanics that caused the issue . But I could he wrong.
Porygon said:He's not wrong. Mmos are a different game nowadays because of the playerbase and player mentality has largely shifted.
EQ TLP is massively different than EQ was originally; you only have to change a few variables to cultivate a very different environment and experience.
I know people who are perfectly polite and lovely but put them in a game of DOTA or a terrible PUG group in WoW and suddenly they’re the polar opposite.
The thing with original EQ was and I actually kind of hate this tag line, but “community matters” was true more so than it is on TLP (for various reasons). Ultimately people wish to win and that means gaining experience and items, it is not a winning strategy to flame the people you’re grouped with and leave a group in EQ because there is no opening another instance or finding another group easily. If you are a big enough jerk it was possible to damage your reputation enough that you risked wasting all your time invested in that character (which generally was a lot).
Yes, there are scenarios where you can be a jerk and get away with it, but the percentage of people who are able to or are willing to go down that route was way less due to the constraints of the game.
TL;DR if you create the right systems within the game you lessen people’s desire to be toxic greatly. If you can somehow create a game where being a jerk to random people is less beneficial than being polite that’s what is important. “kids these days” is nonsense; it’s more “games these days” don’t have win conditions that require you not to be a total d-bag in order to be successful.
Porygon said:He's not wrong. Mmos are a different game nowadays because of the playerbase and player mentality has largely shifted.
Even though the TLPs are not a perfect recreation of EQ, it's still fundamentally the same game with the same problems. If EQ was first created in 2018, you would see similar issues that you see on the TLPs once people discovered which zones were best and where the best gear was etc.
I also dont think people really cherish the 8 deaths and 4 hour corpse run they needed to undergo when they died at chef in sebilis, but more so the excitement around finding help or actually completing the task. So the nostalgia in my mind is more so for the success you finally have and the excitement stemming from that, more so than the hardships and bad mechanics that caused the issue . But I could he wrong.
You are right in that no one cherished doing a corpse run. It was the threat of a corpse run that made them cherish everything that they accomplished. No other game has done that for me. In every other game I have played if you wiped or failed at something you simply respawned and did it again. You didn't have to think about anything other than how the next attempt would go. And when you succeded it was no big deal. Maybe the first time it was kind of cool but you just moved on to the next thing. For me any way every big encounter in EQ was a big deal. There was always danger.
Take away the danger and all you are truely succeeding at it memorizing what a program has been designed to do and keeping ahead of it. It's the hardships and threat of hardships if you failed that made it meaningful.
How many of us actually got to know our guildies while we were waiting on CR team or Rez team to build us back up to raid strength? I sure did. Then the second we get back up we pull at the wrong time and do it all over. We learned fast what not to do, that makes me nostalgiac. So i guess if you break it down... I get nostalgiac about going through heck with a community. #communitymatters
nscheffel said:Go play on the latest EQ TLP server and...
Almost none of that is relevant to original EQ in the eras I played, which was Classic '99 to Planes of Power. There were no cash shop and no XP or mana regen potions. Rogues were amazing and definitely desired in groups for bringing reliable top-end DPS. Enchanters certainly had an edge with their charmed pets but that was riding a tiger, at any point the pet could break and beat your healer to death using you.
Now the bit about open world content and contested spawns is fair, and I'm not sure what a good solution to that is. Maybe it doesn't need a "fair" solution. There's only going to be one winner of the World Cup this year, maybe that's not fair but it's what makes winning it so awesome. If everyone got their own trophy it would cheapen it. If you want to raid top-end content then you'd join a top-end raiding guild and build up your DKP to earn loot. Personally I don't have much interest in raiding and think I'll have fun focusing on grouping & dungeon crawling. Raiding always seemed more like a job than a game to me. And these days I have a job.
Edit - a few words.
Thallium said:TL;DR if you create the right systems within the game you lessen people’s desire to be toxic greatly. If you can somehow create a game where being a jerk to random people is less beneficial than being polite that’s what is important. “kids these days” is nonsense; it’s more “games these days” don’t have win conditions that require you not to be a total d-bag in order to be successful.
I agree with you. But creating the right systems doesn't have to be using the terrible systems from classic eq. There are other ways to do it.
I think we will see early on that community will matter in pantheon. If you're a jerk, you probably won't get too many group invites. If were anticipating 500 hours to max... that's a long time to go while none wants you in their group.
clepius77 said:Now the bit about open world content and contested spawns is fair, and I'm not sure what a good solution to that is. Maybe it doesn't need a "fair" solution. There's only going to be one winner of the World Cup this year, maybe that's not fair but it's what makes winning it so awesome.
The only issue with this analogy, is that the world cup games are scheduled, and the teams there have a chance to fight.
The biggest complaints from open world raiding is having a hardcore guild batphone at 5am to kill the raid boss. This will happen over and over until randomly the raid boss will spawn while a lesser guild is there and in zone... and a dps race will ensue to which it's nearly impossible to win without the raid gear that the hardcore guild has. That's why most games try and at least give guilds a "chance" via instances or lockouts or whatnot.
However. I agree. Not everyone should get a trophy.
There should only be 1 "winner".
clepius77 said:Now the bit about open world content and contested spawns is fair, and I'm not sure what a good solution to that is. Maybe it doesn't need a "fair" solution. There's only going to be one winner of the World Cup this year, maybe that's not fair but it's what makes winning it so awesome. If everyone got their own trophy it would cheapen it. If you want to raid top-end content then you'd join a top-end raiding guild and build up your DKP to earn loot. Personally I don't have much interest in raiding and think I'll have fun focusing on grouping & dungeon crawling. Raiding always seemed more like a job than a game to me. And these days I have a job.
That would make sense more for a PvP focused game/server. I'd say a game focused on cooperation & PvE should be more like American Ninja Warrior: many try but few succeed because the challenge of the course (game) is great.
Far more impressive to see people who have beat a challenge many have tried and failed.