Nephele said:oneADseven said:A toggle for XP loss should not be an option in this game. "If you want a challenge, toggle XP Loss on." No, if someone wants a challenge, they should play Pantheon. The game should be difficult by default.
Agreed. However, please give me a toggle for XP gain :)
That is the kind of toggle I could live with. =P
Pantheon can be a wonderful old-school style game if it has *most* of the features that a majority of us want but not all of them. Let us not be so quick to send someone off to play WoW because they disagree on one feature, even if it is an important feature. One can be even more magnanamous when one knows that VR agrees with you and the death penalty is not going to go poof.
To support my initial statement - let us take features that most of us consider important and that most of us view as differentiating Pantheon from typical MMOs today. Not in order of importance. These are not my view of the most important features necessarily but they are my view of features that will make Pantheon very different.
1. Meaningful death penalty. Maybe with corpse runs (very likely) maybe with deleveling (not as likely) but regardless of how it is implemented death stings.
2. Traveling is significantly more difficult than typical today. Some rapid travel (none of us would support it taking 3 weeks /played to go from one continent to another unless the ocean was a well developed adventure zone with a lot to do) but the feel of a large world where it is *not* trivial to get from one point to another with a few possible exceptions.
3. Leveling (and probably crafting progression) is far slower. Back to the days where a level means something and when someone yells "ding" the reaction isn't "why would that idiot care about one level - there are 115 levels and it takes a week to get to the maximum". Again, implementation details aren't known yet but slower leveling is a definite priority in development.
4. No or few instances. Any instances are for limited specific reasons - the great majority of our time is spent in a shared world.
5. Less solo content as a percentage of what is available to do. More group content. Better tools for grouping (better definitely not meaning a groupfinder that automatically forms groups and teleports them into action).
I may have overlooked something many of us consider critical. I may have overlooked something *I* consider critical. But this is enough. Suppose we get four of these five points implemented. Won't that make Pantheon a far better experience than WoW or Rift or EQ2 or .....? So why would any of us want to abandon the game merely because for reasons VR considered good they dropped the fifth? Let us mourn the lost differentiator while playing the game and celebrating the other four.
For the record I support all five and am not suggesting that one be dropped - just encouraging inclusion towards fellow pledgers that may disagree even to the extent of wanting one or two basic design decisions done differently.
XP loss is a useful tool to slow the progress of players who need to learn more. The heart of the matter is whether the frequency of death relative to the rate of xp gain is a measure of how good you are as a player. It's just a progressive approach to xp gain. I would argue that it isn't a perfect system, but it's a perfectly fine one.
Consider two styles of XP gain:
Game 1: The average player gains 100 xp per hour. The game is challenging and the average player dies once per hour. No xp loss on death. 100 xp per hour on average gained. Skilled players will xp faster than unskilled players.
Game 2: The average player gains 200 xp per hour. The game is challenging and the average player dies once per hour. 100 xp loss on death. 100 xp per hour on average gained. Skilled players will xp faster and die less, progressing far faster than the average. Unskilled players will xp slower and die more, potentially stalling out on xp.
I think that allowing players to stall out on xp gain is a wonderful thing. Back in EQ I stalled out even at level 1 because I was young and had no idea what I was doing. It gave me the time I needed to improve and gave clear evidence that I had to learn how to do things better. If xp loss wasn't in EQ then I would have just progressed on and would have continued being bad.
As someone who borders on tragically nostalgic, I can say that I am guilty of this. That said, as someone who is forward-thinking, I can recognize it for what it is, and deal with it before it becomes a problem--like bad-mouthing something because it's not what it used to be. Change is not only inevitable, it is often long-term beneficial.
Ainadak said:I think that allowing players to stall out on xp gain is a wonderful thing. Back in EQ I stalled out even at level 1 because I was young and had no idea what I was doing. It gave me the time I needed to improve and gave clear evidence that I had to learn how to do things better. If xp loss wasn't in EQ then I would have just progressed on and would have continued being bad.
Highly doubtful that XP loss was the one thing keeping you from eternal badness. I have limited play time, and I don't want to have to spend that playtime grinding mobs mindlessly just to earn back what I had at the start of a session because I happened to die.
My husband and I like to challenge ourselves in MMOs by attempting to 2-man as much as possible. Does this mean we die? Certainly, as sometimes it's just not possible. But the question of, "Can we take it?" makes it fun. Sometimes we come out victorious and the feeling of tackling something that wasn't meant for just the two of us is fantastic. Sometimes we end up watching our characters squashed like bugs, and that's fun too. Watching our XP progress get reset because of this would be the exact opposite of fun.
So many memories, so many EQ memories. yet again. yawn. I did get as far as page 4 in the thread before I got bored.
I have some brilliant memories of most of the MMOs I've played. Yes, including WoW, that MMO that dare not speak its name in these hallowed halls. None of them are memories of unnecessarily inconvenient design or mechanics. Most typically they are memories of having fun with people; winning some very hard battles (yes very hard battles really DO exist outside EQ); Funny things that happened. I remember the pride from killing Lucifron for the first time after building a guild from scratch and raid leading it to victory. I remember the joy getting my gorgeous dreadsteed after that really cool long quest line and looking at it for a solid half hour. I remember standing in the aborean mountains looking at a particularly lovely sunset while listening to the beautiful haunting background music. I remember coaching my first player, how much joy I gave them and how he became a good friend and super officer. I remember that wonderfully written main quest line in FFXIV, which was even more fun than the AoC one. I remember laughing at my RL friend playing a gnome in Duskwood when a spider spat a web on him which covered his whole character and he couldn't see anything. Those memories are the ones I call to mind when I look back. Here are some others that I call to mind a lot less:
I do remember getting really pissed off at having wasted ANOTHER half hour having to run away to the end of the zone to get away from some stupid goblin in the Dunes in FFXIV. I remember corpse runs being a pain the backside and having to be really careful etc. I remember how soul destroying it was trying to sell stuff without an AH (Sod this, I'm quitting the game to go fly a kite in the park). But if I thought those were defining moments or good memories then frankly I think I'd be a bit worried about myself.
People make the experience, specific game features do not. Build some rapport. Go on an adventure. Make your own fun. If you think all decent memories must be created by 'no maps' or watching endless hours of 'WTS silly little +1 blade at some 'go buy some gold from a farmer' type price, PST', while you look for the bullets to that gun you now desperately want to put to your head, then I think you're entirely missing the point; or perhaps you're one of those people who have to rely on others to create their fun for them. You probably CAN have fun in a game that's not EQ with better graphics (yeah yeah I know this game is different, look it has an enitirely different name).. If you think you can't then it's probably time to take a bit of a look at yourself and ask some questions.
There, the heretic has spoken again. Bring out the stake and light the fire.
Khendall said:Yes, we clearly favour good memories. I always try to remember that the great majority of players stopped playing old school games like EQ to play other games, there were reasons for that and we should not forget it.
Exactly. People migrated away so that they could spend more time having fun playing a game with other people rather than spending time battling against needless game mechanics which were only there because devs didn't have the resources. The mechanics in an MMORPG should be there to facilitate fun with people, rather than actively resist that. This is precisely why we should have maps and why there should be an AH. We're all older than we were and we all have less time to play. Personally I'd like to spend the couple of hours I have here and there actually adventuring - with people - rather than standing still like a lemon spamming WTS (if I have an hour to play I'm more likely to spend it on a few games of dead by daylight rather than that, at least I'll have a chance of achieving something); or bumbling around for half an hour trying to remember where the friggin hell I am because I've not played in a week, while my group eventually gets pissed off having to wait and eventually gets impatient and kicks me (and come on people we ALL know that's going to happen, I must have seen that a thousand times in FFXI).
Idrial said:Exactly. People migrated away so that they could spend more time having fun playing a game with other people rather than spending time battling against needless game mechanics which were only there because devs didn't have the resources. The mechanics in an MMORPG should be there to facilitate fun with people, rather than actively resist that. This is precisely why we should have maps and why there should be an AH. We're all older than we were and we all have less time to play. Personally I'd like to spend the couple of hours I have here and there actually adventuring - with people - rather than standing still like a lemon spamming WTS (if I have an hour to play I'm more likely to spend it on a few games of dead by daylight rather than that, at least I'll have a chance of achieving something); or bumbling around for half an hour trying to remember where the friggin hell I am because I've not played in a week, while my group eventually gets pissed off having to wait and eventually gets impatient and kicks me (and come on people we ALL know that's going to happen, I must have seen that a thousand times in FFXI).
I couldn't possibly agree more. While there is some argument to be made that certain people find punishing, rather than facilitating, mechanics "fun", I don't know how successful a masochistic MMO could be. Single-player RPGs can afford to be more ultra-niche and punishing (think Dark Souls and its cult following - though even then the difficulty in DS comes more from the combat than artificial "realism" mechanics), but MMOs need to be able to reach at least a somewhat larger audience.
Also, fun. I have limited play time (and I'm CERTAIN I'm not alone in this) due to having to Adult for significant portions of my day-to-day, and I much prefer spending my play time actually enjoying quests, dungeons, raids, etc - either alone or with friends - than having to sit there struggling with some menial chores because my horse got tired or I left an item in a "local" bank super far away that I need now in another zone or I freaking died and now I have to redo all of my progress from the day before by tedious, horrendous mob grinding. The easiest way to get me to go play something different is to put too many barriers between me and my fun.
@Idrial Except the mechanics you want removed or do not want to exist in Pantheon have been removed from most/all MMORPGs today. Pantheon’s return to mechanics or choice to not use current mechanics (ex. Map) that are deemed to be more “nostalgic” by some are not all meant to be “fun” - they add to the challenge and make a virtual world more realistic.
As to your time point, there is a whole new group of gamers in the age range you were when you had more time - I’d argue its more selfish to restrict their ability to play a great game, one in this era they’ve never been able to experience in a MMORPG form than slow your progression to points in the week/month where you have more time to play.
I’m also in the much less time camp, but I don’t wanter to water down the experience to cater to me.
*Edit* I also wanted to include this Wolfshead article again as it explains one of the more controversial mechanics, and the necessity of it, better than I.
http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/
The issue is that eq1 mechanics don't work in this day and age. We went thru 2 whole progression servers that showed that.
When DBG took over and began making changes to the eq1 progrssion servers (instances, higher difficulty, pick zones) you ended up with a better and longer lasting community.
I think people chase the idea that this game will recreate the memories they had from eq1 but that's just not the case. I think we will see pretty early on that most people don't want to deal with an open world competitive mmo. And will start calling for changes.
Porygon said:The issue is that eq1 mechanics don't work in this day and age...
If you'd said *some* EQ mechanics don't work, I'd have been right behind you, but personally, I went back to EQ Project 1999 recently and had a much better time than in WoW, Guild Wars 2 and whatever else modern MMORPGs are out there because *some* EQ mechanics are *vastly* superior to other MMORPGs in this day and age.
I know some here basically want EQ1.5 and any mention of modern conveniences bring about a fit. That is not me. But a *lot* of what made EQ great will absolutely work just like they did back then.
Serious death penalties. Emphasis on group content. Challenging encounters and environments. Social interaction a necessity. Those kind of things.
Yes, playing P99 I eventually came up against the same old problems at high level. Yes, there are a lot of irritating UI and mechanic issues. It's still great.
my first real corpse run. Friend (15) asked a bunch of us, we were 10-12 about level 10-12, to help him get his corpse in the house in The Estate of Unrest. Most of us had barely ventured into Crushbone and not beyond yet. But we agreed and we all went through Butcherblock, very carefully along the waters edge through Dagnor's Cauldron and into Unrest. We didn't have much power but there were many of us. After about 5 hours, we finally had his and all of our corpses back but had an amazing amount of fun. Corpse runs, Death penalties etc were rough but like Dorotea says, it's all about the memories, good and bad!
disposalist said:Porygon said:The issue is that eq1 mechanics don't work in this day and age...
If you'd said *some* EQ mechanics don't work, I'd have been right behind you, but personally, I went back to EQ Project 1999 recently and had a much better time than in WoW, Guild Wars 2 and whatever else modern MMORPGs are out there because *some* EQ mechanics are *vastly* superior to other MMORPGs in this day and age.
I know some here basically want EQ1.5 and any mention of modern conveniences bring about a fit. That is not me. But a *lot* of what made EQ great will absolutely work just like they did back then.
Serious death penalties. Emphasis on group content. Challenging encounters and environments. Social interaction a necessity. Those kind of things.
Yes, playing P99 I eventually came up against the same old problems at high level. Yes, there are a lot of irritating UI and mechanic issues. It's still great.
But that's the point. Yes eq1 is fun while leveling, but theres much more to a game than just leveling. And that's what I meant by my comment. EQ is one of the more fun games to play for me at lower level... but when you get to max... that's where the issues arise. And not many people will be willing to consistently level alts yo avoid playing the game at 50. People are going to hit max and want to raid... and if they cant, they will lobby to have changes made.
It might not happen the first month... or even 6 months. But it will happen.
Raidan said:@Idrial Except the mechanics you want removed or do not want to exist in Pantheon have been removed from most/all MMORPGs today. Pantheon’s return to mechanics or choice to not use current mechanics (ex. Map) that are deemed to be more “nostalgic” by some are not all meant to be “fun” - they add to the challenge and make a virtual world more realistic.
About maps, nearly everybody in EQ had printed maps, and we had Atlas giving locs of everything and we had /loc, so please ... the "no maps" argument is a pure fantasy when talking about challenge. And getting no maps does not make the world more realistic, it is the opposite, getting maps makes the world more realistic, we do not live in a world without maps, humans draw maps since the dawn of time, and all virtual worlds have maps, so this argument is just non-sense.
The impression of getting lost in EQ was mostly due to technical stuff, our view was limited, we were not able to get visual reference points from far to help us evaluate our own location. This coupled to graphics of relatively poor quality made it very easy to get lost (or losing its corpse). Pantheon is far better technically, streams have proven that we'll be able to see details from very far and we'll have lots more visual references. So, basically, if you count on the fact of getting no maps to get challenge, that's just an even bigger illusion, if you want challenge, suppress /loc.
@Khendall
Thanks for the reply - I do think not having maps adds to the challenge and virtual world.
There was no maps in EQ which you correctly stated added to the community by creating them and being more invested (enhanced virtual world feeling versus game). Even with the maps, you had to pay attention to landmarks etc until you learned the zone, even with /locs you had to pay more attention to north/south/east/west, and if you were following the loc spam, it was easy to become distracted with that. Paying attention to the surroundings makes the game “feel” more real, yes a bit of preference there - feel free to disagree.
Even today, with most people having multiple screens, it would at least cause a distraction to look at a second screen for a map, and more importantly, it wouldn’t have the GPS capability that games have today with glowing markers for your location and waypoints. So yes, there would be increased challenge with navigating and learning the world.
Also, I’ve said here plenty that I would be ok with playermade maps (cartography skill or otherwise) or droppable maps that would come with a penalty and no gps capability - they are right clickable and expand to take up most if not all the screen. Risk/reward for usage.
And lastly I agree, I would be perfectly fine with removing /loc also, and never liked that it was a panic button /loc before death to find corpse or look up /locs to find named spawn points in zone etc. and am in agreement with that point.
Khendall said:Raidan said:@Idrial Except the mechanics you want removed or do not want to exist in Pantheon have been removed from most/all MMORPGs today. Pantheon’s return to mechanics or choice to not use current mechanics (ex. Map) that are deemed to be more “nostalgic” by some are not all meant to be “fun” - they add to the challenge and make a virtual world more realistic.
About maps, nearly everybody in EQ had printed maps, and we had Atlas giving locs of everything and we had /loc, so please ... the "no maps" argument is a pure fantasy when talking about challenge. And getting no maps does not make the world more realistic, it is the opposite, getting maps makes the world more realistic, we do not live in a world without maps, humans draw maps since the dawn of time, and all virtual worlds have maps, so this argument is just non-sense.
Okay, so let people consume player created maps outside the game while VR makes the game. Seems like a win win.
When i first started really exploring EQ i was all over player created content, printed maps. When i actually learned how content worked and how to play EQ1 i was totally obsessed. I still remember a friend i met at early levels competing in the BOTB tournament and actually traveling to the arena in Rathe Mtns. Totally underleveled but it was such an event that you didnt miss it! Yes some of the mechanics of the game we learned were broken, but we were living in a fools paradise. It was new, it was fun, and innovative! Many of the features of EQ1 are still what bring people back. The fact that the fear of death actually increased the enjoyment of the game was surprising and yet so many games tried to remove this aspect. Sad but true.
I'm not a very serious person, so even bad happenings tend to amuse me. It's 18 years later, and I still laugh ocassionally with my old friends about the time that I got trashed by Squire Wimbly after I spent a lot of time getting to my group, sat in the wrong spot and went afk for a moment. Or the time(s) I tried to slip through Kithicor and cut it too close. These mishaps are all part of the adventure, in my opinion, that helped to shape the overall experience. There's one very important thing about these, though;
They are due to content/player choices, not because a mechanic/feature was lacking. Not including features such as a group finder to help facilitate groups is silly, because there's not really a (clearly visible) downside to including it, but the downside to not including it is quite apparent. Grouping tools are more in the metagame realm than the actual game realm. There's also a difference between friction and punishment - you can sometimes avoid punishment through careful/meticulous/good play, while friction is just sort of there and most people have to deal with it.
Situation; you need a certain ability to do something/make something easier for you.
Example of friction; your class lacks that certain ability that at times is useful but not required, and in this case it makes the situation a bit more challenging to overcome.
Example of punishment; your class lacks that certain ability that is necessary, and there is no workaround, causing you to seek help which may or may not be available due to time of day or other circumstances.
While the second example might not literally be punishment, it certainly feels like you're being punished for your character/class choice. In terms of story, it may seem very cool to have some situation where 'you must seek out a wizard of great power to somethingsomething for you', in reality, we're humans that exist in a world with time constraints, schedules and other things to do, so alleviating this kind of thing where possible is a good idea. In the end it's all up to weighing the pros vs cons, I guess, which can be a slippery slope when it comes to things like adding convenience.
I think I'm rambling now ._.
Keno Monster said:Khendall said:Raidan said:@Idrial Except the mechanics you want removed or do not want to exist in Pantheon have been removed from most/all MMORPGs today. Pantheon’s return to mechanics or choice to not use current mechanics (ex. Map) that are deemed to be more “nostalgic” by some are not all meant to be “fun” - they add to the challenge and make a virtual world more realistic.
About maps, nearly everybody in EQ had printed maps, and we had Atlas giving locs of everything and we had /loc, so please ... the "no maps" argument is a pure fantasy when talking about challenge. And getting no maps does not make the world more realistic, it is the opposite, getting maps makes the world more realistic, we do not live in a world without maps, humans draw maps since the dawn of time, and all virtual worlds have maps, so this argument is just non-sense.
Okay, so let people consume player created maps outside the game while VR makes the game. Seems like a win win.
No, it's a lose-lose, because they always contain tons of spoilers you can't un-see and involve you leaving the game to visit an ad-smothered web page. People who want maps get much more than they wanted and have their experience ruined (whether they realise it or not, all the mystery and discovery and socialising is gone) and people who don't want maps still get others using them and leading the group around from quest drop to secret area to loot drop.
This is a bit of a derailment from a thread about nostalgia, I guess, but if VR made maps that were enough so you didn't get lost and were a tease for areas you might want to visit *that* would be a win-win where people who don't like getting lost have a map and people who want discovery and exploration can actually be encouraged to explore *more*.
VR-made maps would mean those that really want spoilers can go find them in a website and those that don't can just use the basic in-game maps on the occasion they get lost.