Ok, here's another example.
Was just running through Lesser Faydark, on my way to Mistmoore, and got murdered by a Brownie. There goes an hour or two of experience.
This would not happen to a higher level character, and indeed, in let's say a level 50+ zone, there are not level 75s running around randomly slaughtering players.
There are plenty of examples where xp loss serves no purpose, does not increase "challenge" appropriately, and just serves to ruin the gaming experience for players who are unlucky. It's not like I could run away (I tried - Brownies have SoW! I even made it to the ranger outpost, where I died...forlorn)
Luck and experience loss should not go hand in hand. And I'm not cherry picking - these are all examples that happened to me as I've been playing. I just want Pantheon to be the best game it could be. Removing frustrating, pointless features is important. I'm not saying xp loss is pointless in all circumstances, but it surely is frustrating.
Lyaelan said:Ok, here's another example.
Was just running through Lesser Faydark, on my way to Mistmoore, and got murdered by a Brownie. There goes an hour or two of experience.
This would not happen to a higher level character, and indeed, in let's say a level 50+ zone, there are not level 75s running around randomly slaughtering players.
There are plenty of examples where xp loss serves no purpose, does not increase "challenge" appropriately, and just serves to ruin the gaming experience for players who are unlucky. It's not like I could run away (I tried - Brownies have SoW! I even made it to the ranger outpost, where I died...forlorn)
Luck and experience loss should not go hand in hand. And I'm not cherry picking - these are all examples that happened to me as I've been playing. I just want Pantheon to be the best game it could be. Removing frustrating, pointless features is important. I'm not saying xp loss is pointless in all circumstances, but it surely is frustrating.
I think that you are missing the point. What happened to you was not pointless or designed to ruin your gaming experience. I assume this is the first time or one of the first times you have ever been to that zone. If not this is kind of all on you for not adapting. The point in my opinion for the over leveled brownies in that zone is to force you to adapt. Also known as taker another route through the zone. Been there a hundred times. Only died to a brownie maybe twice. Once was because I didn't know about them, the other times were due to my own impatients, I took the shortest route through the zone.
Zones to do exist to just be time sinks for travel. They also add flavor and character to the world. No one with any knowledge of Lfay would have run across in the way I am thinking you did without knowing the risks just like no one would run on the road in Kith at midnight without knowing the risk. That zone is telling you something. It is saying respect me or die. In my opionion more zones need to do that. Otherwise lets just start the game off with a Plane of Knowledge from day one.
So yes the first time this happens to you it's bad luck maybe and that is unfortunate that you died but thats part of exploring. It helps to drive home the point that the world is dangerous. If thigs like this never happen no one will respect anything. You can just hit Num Lock and got afk while you run thorugh any zone.
Sabot - I don't think Lyaelan is missing the point at all. I think you simply disagree with him/her which is not the same thing at all.
You consider high level enemies in a lower level zone a good thing. They give challenge. They encourage you to always be alert. They foster situational awareness. Correct me if I put this poorly I am just summarizing not trying to speak for you - you can do that quite well.
Lyaelan may (or may not) view things close to the way I do. High level enemies that characters on-level for the zone cannot even hope to defeat are simply ....nasty. They are depressing. They degrade the concept of building up one's gear and increasing one's knowledge of the class since the buggers will kill you even if you are the most skillful player of your class in the game and your gear is wonderful. They are grossly unfair.
Extremely high level enemies (compared to the zone) may be tolerable if they can be seen at a significant distance and avoided. If the zone gives good sightlines (typically not true in woods) and the enemies are quite large or glow. If you cannot possibly run into them and die unless you are afk or semi-afk (reading a book or watching a movie and only occasionally glancing at the screen).
If you are being reasonably careful and you can still run into an unfightable (at your level) enemy I consider that terrible game design. Even in games with no xp loss. Some of us make a game within the game of not dying. Losing a tough fight is quite fair - dying when you get more enemies than you expect is quite fair. The game should not be *easy*. But a level 100 enemy in an area with level 30 mobs (numbers made up and not intended to represent Lesser Faydark) is simply wrong for more reasons than I am capable of expressing.
I hear you Dorotea. I was mainly replying to the part that stated that it served no purpose. I say it does serve a purpose. Now if you don't like the purpose of course you can disagree with having it in the game, but it does most certianly serve a purpose. Sorry if that did not come through. I am not trying to say someone is wrong in what they want, I support anyone saying what they would like to see. I just want to say that alot of these things are in place for a reason. Some people might not like them but they arent just there to steal experience from you. They do serve a purpose.
dorotea said:If you are being reasonably careful and you can still run into an unfightable (at your level) enemy I consider that terrible game design.
Respectfully disagree.
My friend and I getting jumped - and hopelessly obliterated - by Froon while attempting to travel from Qeynos to Freeport is one of my fondest gaming memories.
I also fondly recall being paranoid about timing my journeys through Kithicor Forest because if I got caught in the woods at night then I was likely to get killed by powerful undead monsters that I couldn't hope to defeat.
There are many other examples that you can read about
I think I understand what you're getting at but as long as these unfightable monsters have a reason for being where they are doing what they're doing, then I think it's great game design.
I agree there is a purpose to "killer" mobs of the type we are discussing. Reasonable people may disagree as to whether the benefits outwiegh the disadvantages but they weren't put there by accident. The developers thought they enhanced the game experience - some of us agree, some of us do not.
Quite a few game design decisions are like this - players with comparable "old school" experience and credentials have very different opinions as to the details of what they want in an "old school" game. Killer mobs probably being one of the least important decisions compared to more global design decisions such as should there be deleveling, should there be specialization trees, should there be corpse runs, how much rapid transportation should there be, should there be any instances at all and the like.
There are very few issues where I think that I am right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. There are many issues where I think that a rational developer can go either way - one way is best for my style of play and one way is not but either way is reasonable. Killer mobs is definitely one where I understand the countervailing view. Well put by Sabot and Shai. In fact a fan of Dickson's Dorsai books might even say "shai Shai".
For what little it is worth I believe that the supporters of killer mobs are a majority here - perhaps a *large* majority. I think Pantheon will have them. But there is always room for "I disagree" as long as it is put politely and with reasons given to support the contrarian opinion.
My only issue with this level discrepancy deal here, is that when you zone into somewhere for the first time. Unless you're looking at some sort of online resource, you dont know what the level range is.
If you zone in and just start fighting without conning mobs... you probably deserve to die. That's why that system is in the game. It was one of the first things my friend taught me when I joined EQ. If you're just randomly running thru zones, you should probably die.
They've already said that in dungeons the level range will vary largely. I just don't see this as an issue.
dorotea said:Sabot - I don't think Lyaelan is missing the point at all. I think you simply disagree with him/her which is not the same thing at all.
You consider high level enemies in a lower level zone a good thing. They give challenge. They encourage you to always be alert. They foster situational awareness. Correct me if I put this poorly I am just summarizing not trying to speak for you - you can do that quite well.
Lyaelan may (or may not) view things close to the way I do. High level enemies that characters on-level for the zone cannot even hope to defeat are simply ....nasty. They are depressing. They degrade the concept of building up one's gear and increasing one's knowledge of the class since the buggers will kill you even if you are the most skillful player of your class in the game and your gear is wonderful. They are grossly unfair.
It's a bit of a tough thing though, faction is important and different races/classes/religions could give all sorts of different results and IIRC the brownies are not KoS to all players. Players need to be aware in every zone they enter, especially if they haven't been there before on a character because the world is a dangerous place full of all sorts of unsavory types.
Sometimes it takes a death or two to learn, the only way to know is having it happen. Who would have guessed the druid NPC wandering past would kill you for attacking a grizzly in his presence? Now you know.
Lyaelan said:Ok, here's another example.
Was just running through Lesser Faydark, on my way to Mistmoore, and got murdered by a Brownie. There goes an hour or two of experience.
This would not happen to a higher level character, and indeed, in let's say a level 50+ zone, there are not level 75s running around randomly slaughtering players.
There are plenty of examples where xp loss serves no purpose, does not increase "challenge" appropriately, and just serves to ruin the gaming experience for players who are unlucky. It's not like I could run away (I tried - Brownies have SoW! I even made it to the ranger outpost, where I died...forlorn)
Luck and experience loss should not go hand in hand. And I'm not cherry picking - these are all examples that happened to me as I've been playing. I just want Pantheon to be the best game it could be. Removing frustrating, pointless features is important. I'm not saying xp loss is pointless in all circumstances, but it surely is frustrating.
That sucks, it's also life. Luck and experience are, well, what make up our real world, and imo, a virtual world should reflect that. Is this a roleplaying game in a virtual world, or a single player game you can play co-op?
I'm guessing someone trained the brownies away from their normal camp? A sense of danger is paramount to the experience that many of us desire. It is requisite, in fact. I'm sorry you had a bad time with that moment, we all probably would have been pissed, but it's plain bad logic to say that's a reason why it shouldn't be in the game. That zone was dangerous for you to be in. That's a good thing. Next time you make it to MM, be happy you didn't run into any brownies. And when you level up, go kill em.
I remember getting destroyed by quite a few high level random zone mobs. Less Fay was one of those zones you avoided completely unless you were high level or headed to mistmoore and knew the route to take. When i was first playing i was warned explicitly that brownies were OP and to stick to the corner from Gfay and Steamfont unless you know what you are doing. There were quite a few zones that had high level patrol mobs, you learned to keep an eye out for them. I understand the BS meter is high with these kind of situations, but people got the word out pretty quick when something like this was discovered. Avoid area XX as Mob Y will DESTROY you. I can't even tell you how many mobs destroyed me, but i sure learned those lessons fast.
I'm not saying those types of mobs needed to be there, but it sure made for a risk factor that made you think twice before doing something. And as it was stated before, these zones in Pantheon will have a wide level range, so people are going to need to be cautious at first. Yes, you will find dangerous areas, and you will avoid them until you are ready to test them for exp/loot.
I agree that getting housed in Lfay by brownies can certainly be exciting - if you removed the xp loss!
I've been to Lfay hundreds or thousands of times - I've been playing EQ on and off since 1999. My invisibility wore off suddenly (I have maxed divination skill for my level - it's random).
So sure - there can be high level mobs that ruin you in zones, that can be fun. But to lose experience for that? Awful. Add into that a bind point half a continent away for some poor noobie warrior? Oh wow. Rage log! Thankfully, as a wizard, I can gate wherever I need to!
I guess it comes down to whether or not we want people to be hurt and punished by things they have little or no control over. If the answer is yes, then that's fine. I'll not like it, but I'll still play.
Even better......! Add a toggle switch. Those that want a real, authentic old school experience can allow death xp loss, and those that just don't can toggle it off. I assume most people will play without it, but purists can suffer as much as they want, I guess.
Or perhaps there can be HARDCORE servers! I remember on old Tallon Zek that anyone from a "bluebie carebear" server was looked upon with disdain. Those pathetic non PvPers! So, let there be a hardcore server with xp loss, or PVP looting, or even perma character death.
I, myself, would opt for something less taxing upon my patience and time.
I didn't discount that you didnt know the zone. I was just commenting on the fact that this will be a new game with new oddities and people will spread word fast to watch out for certain mobs/areas. I can honestly say i never went to mistmoore until i was level 60. /shrug
I have no doubt there will be a more hardcore optional server with more harsh penalties.
Lyaelan said:...Add a toggle switch.
*eyeroll*
Lyaelan said:Or perhaps there can be HARDCORE servers!
For the record, people who enjoy a hostile world aren't the same as people who enjoy a hostile playerbase. That said, while I don't advocate for it, there's precedence for this kind of thing working. I'd flip the script and create a "relaxed ruleset" server instead of a "hardcore server."
Everquest put it right on the tin with their slogan: You're in our world now.
Lyaelan said:I agree that getting housed in Lfay by brownies can certainly be exciting - if you removed the xp loss!
I've been to Lfay hundreds or thousands of times - I've been playing EQ on and off since 1999. My invisibility wore off suddenly (I have maxed divination skill for my level - it's random).
So sure - there can be high level mobs that ruin you in zones, that can be fun. But to lose experience for that? Awful. Add into that a bind point half a continent away for some poor noobie warrior? Oh wow. Rage log! Thankfully, as a wizard, I can gate wherever I need to!
I guess it comes down to whether or not we want people to be hurt and punished by things they have little or no control over. If the answer is yes, then that's fine. I'll not like it, but I'll still play.
Even better......! Add a toggle switch. Those that want a real, authentic old school experience can allow death xp loss, and those that just don't can toggle it off. I assume most people will play without it, but purists can suffer as much as they want, I guess.
Or perhaps there can be HARDCORE servers! I remember on old Tallon Zek that anyone from a "bluebie carebear" server was looked upon with disdain. Those pathetic non PvPers! So, let there be a hardcore server with xp loss, or PVP looting, or even perma character death.
I, myself, would opt for something less taxing upon my patience and time.
While I can understand why someone may not want death penalties like XP loss and naked corpse runs in the MMO they play, I do NOT understand why those people supported Pantheon. I mean, isn't that one of the things advertized from the beginning? Revisiting the features of the MMOs of old? Why support Pantheon if you don't like its defining features? Genuine question.
It just worries me, every time I see these arguments. Harsher death penalties, no fast travel, no instances - that's the holy trinity. That's what brought me to Pantheon. Without those three things, it's just another MMO. It's another LOTRO, another WoW, another Aion, another Rift. Those three things make it something else - and yet, people come here and try to change those things? I truly do not understand it. I understand not wanting those things in the MMO you play, but I don't understand coming to an MMO and trying to re-direct it to conform to the rest. It just seems like walking into a chinese restaurant and demanding french fries. Why the heck did you even walk in?
Whether I disagree or agree with the arguments of those who fight against those penalties is really not relevant. We're not going to change each others mind about it. I'm not going to say it's "easy mode", and I'm not going to accuse anyone of being a sissy. We simply don't see eye to eye on what makes something challenging and fun, and that's ok. What I find disconcerting is that the discussion is even being had in the first place, not that we can't agree on it.
Removing the death penalty of xp loss and a corpse run would ruin this game. If you want easy mode with in-game maps, and group finder queues, and instances where everyone gets their own copy of a dungeon cause they're just such a special guy - you can play WoW, SWTOR, ESO, BDO, etc.
There's no need to try and ruin this by dumbing it down.
Keno Monster said:Lyaelan said:I agree that getting housed in Lfay by brownies can certainly be exciting - if you removed the xp loss!
So you what, just run back and that's it? If you ran into the brownie camp and aggrod them and got killed...
Asking for no exp loss isn't "wrong" - it is just a different preference. Like Tralyan said, most of us here came due to the challenging older mechanics that Pantheon was going to return too, while obviously tweaking some that didn't need to exist (i.e. staring at a spellbook while medding). And, like Keno Monster (can I say Krixus...? haha) said, it sucks to die, it sucks to lose exp and I probably would be frustrated, but I also know that I wouldn't wander past the same areas when running to MM - I'd most likely hug the zone walls and pray that the unicorn wasn't in the zone haha. For me, as I've stated several times in this thread and plenty on these forums, if you remove the old mechanics (corpse runs, exp loss, meaningful travel, etc.), you remove the virtual world.
Like Kilsin's other thread on "challenge," I am wanting the return to the challenge not only on specific encounters, but aganist the environment/world, etc. I want it the world to feel real, feel immersive - and if you remove penalties for the sake of "fun," well, there would be nothing left to differentiate Pantheon anymore.
I wouldn't say it's a bad thing to favor the good memories. In fact, the good memories can even help me to understand the opinions of others better. I can see beyond any personal solutions I have to a particular issue, and get an idea of what people who hate it may think about that solution, by applying it to something I feel nostalgia for. To iterate:
Some popular "fixxes" to hardcore things that some believe should be easier (like death penalties) might be: "toggle switch", "Compromise", and "alternate ruleset server".
All of these solutions sound amazing vs. a part of the game you dislike, but if you apply these same solutions, "Toggle switch", "compromise", and "alternate ruleset server" to something you feel positively nostalgic about...Do they really work quite so seemlessly?
An example involving something many players love:
Raiding: Even players who don't like raiding may need to raid for story, tradeskills, epic quest completion, guild popularity, etc. So how do we allow those players to get back to the parts of the game they enjoy as seemlessly as possible?
Now, I dislike raids. I would love any of the above solutions. But when I apply those solutions to something I love?:
Trade: I loooved the tunnel. I loved getting a feel for the market and staying on top of all the available deals in the area. I loved buying for less and selling for more, and all the work and time associated with it. But, how can we make it as seemless as possible for trade-haters to get back to the parts of the game they enjoy?
I hate it! It would significantly reduce the amount of people I can potentially trade with, make my playstyle in which I choose to trade "even so" flat out innefficient, and water down any trade-related accomplishments I do manage.
2. "Compromise": the Auction House.
It's a little better, it definately allows me to work with other players and the market and all that to some extent buuuuuuuuut....sorry, I just don't like it for the same reasons above. Even if I do try to trade my way, I'll be innefficient and have a much smaller group of people who are willing to trade my way, whom I can trade with.
3. "Alternate Ruleset Server": Making a whole new server based around my trading preferences.
Might be possible...but I'm really not sure if there would be enough people to support the server split, and if it really won't drain on VR's resources too much. Heck, I suspect that people who dislike trading make for a valuable part of my tunnel experience, because I can quickly buy something from them at a premium and then sell it for more. Finally, I don't like to think about it, but what if an important part of trading for me is feeling "superior" to those who don't trade as much?
With understanding it becomes much more difficult for me to propose "solutions" for my dislike of raiding. While I shouldn't necessarily keep all of my opinions to myself, I can definitely censor my opinions in a way that I don't step on as many tails. I can wrack my brains for more in depth solutions to my problem which are perhaps a bit less risky to the game itself, and then further test those solutions against my favorite bits of nostalgia. All before actually needing to test my solutions.
Even better, when people suggest to me that they want to make trading or death penalties easy? I only need to think of how I want to axe raiding to get a good idea of how the anti-tunnel/easy-death-penalty faction is feeling. I can at least reach grudging understanding, which I do feel is valuable.
Lyaelan said:I agree that getting housed in Lfay by brownies can certainly be exciting - if you removed the xp loss!
I've been to Lfay hundreds or thousands of times - I've been playing EQ on and off since 1999. My invisibility wore off suddenly (I have maxed divination skill for my level - it's random).
So sure - there can be high level mobs that ruin you in zones, that can be fun. But to lose experience for that? Awful. Add into that a bind point half a continent away for some poor noobie warrior? Oh wow. Rage log! Thankfully, as a wizard, I can gate wherever I need to!
I guess it comes down to whether or not we want people to be hurt and punished by things they have little or no control over. If the answer is yes, then that's fine. I'll not like it, but I'll still play.
Even better......! Add a toggle switch. Those that want a real, authentic old school experience can allow death xp loss, and those that just don't can toggle it off. I assume most people will play without it, but purists can suffer as much as they want, I guess.
Or perhaps there can be HARDCORE servers! I remember on old Tallon Zek that anyone from a "bluebie carebear" server was looked upon with disdain. Those pathetic non PvPers! So, let there be a hardcore server with xp loss, or PVP looting, or even perma character death.
I, myself, would opt for something less taxing upon my patience and time.
You are exactly the type of player that will turn this game into the same old **** we have now in the market if they listen to you.
I hope they do not.
Kridak
I'd like to share a few words about MM runs and lfay.
I died looong ago in Lfay, as a newbie rogue that thought he wanted to travel fast and sneakless, just visiting. I died of some brownie that blasted me close to the ranger camp, and had to ask for help to recover my body because i didn't know the zone at all and thought it was just another faydark.
I avoided the zone for a long time, especially since kunark had a lot of open zones around lvl 20, and only used it to visit a'kanon, avoiding MM and such.
Now do I regret it ? No, I had nothing to do here and was just travelling for fun. While I had frustration to die and ask for help, I didn't feel like my time was wasted. This is only a feeling you have in a game you knows too much and where you set yourself goals constantly. But in a controlled environment, it's up to you to avoid the danger zone.
When I play on p99 I just hug the walls until I reach the teir'dals, etc.. I don't take the risks to cross the entire zone even with a CoS. And also, invis can drop suddently but not withouth a fade delay, around 6s I think, you have to use to put yourself in a safe spot.
Of course you could have been semi afk autorunning, but in that case, was it efficient travelling and doing something else at the same time ?
Not to sound rude or judgmental, but maybe you took little precautions in a well known dangerous area, which is like flipping a coin.
kridak said:You are exactly the type of player that will turn this game into the same old **** we have now in the market if they listen to you.
I hope they do not.
Kridak
Why? Because of one change? Toggle-able exp-loss penalties? I'd say the majority of what's wrong with current games is that leveling is way too quick, watered down, and easy. Zones are breezed through, rather than enjoyed, and characters go from one quest hub to another with no player interaction. Might as well play a single player game.
Making Xp-loss a toggle wouldn't cause any of those problems. In fact, if you added a toggle, people who toggled "XP Loss Upon Death" when they created their character could have access to a special title, or some other kind of bonus or flair so they should show off.
Also, it's pretty ignorant to label me a "that kind of player." I'm just trying to make suggestions that might make this game the best it can be. Just because something was in the original Everquest doesn't make it good. It's good by association, perhaps. If you want a challenge, toggle XP Loss on. If you don't turn it off. Or if, for some reason, that idea is offensive to you, then my idea of a "No XP Loss Server" ruleset is a different option.
This was originally a discussion about whether Nostalgia was clouding our eyes, and making old ideas seem better. I am arguing that ABSOLUTELY YES is the answer. Are my ideas perfect? Of course not. Are yours any better than mine?
oneADseven said:A toggle for XP loss should not be an option in this game. "If you want a challenge, toggle XP Loss on." No, if someone wants a challenge, they should play Pantheon. The game should be difficult by default.
Let me rephrase. I agree with you completely. Pantheon should absolutely be a challenge. I am fiercely looking forward to the challenge.
I think that XP loss on death doesn't add to the challenge in any meaningful way.
So let me rephrase: If you want an ADDITIONAL challenge, toggle it on, or join an XP loss server.
I'm not, in any way, arguing that Pantheon shouldn't be radically different from current MMOs, nor am I arguing that Pantheon should be easy.
Lyaelan said:I think that XP loss on death doesn't add to the challenge in any meaningful way.
I disagree with this wholeheartedly. To understand why I feel this way, please see this post: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5753/spiritual-conversion
Emphasis on the my long post on page 4 with highlighted text. At the time, I was under the impression that armor repairs might be a thing in this game. They most likely won't be, and that only reinforces my position even more. XP loss is of the utmost importance when it comes to achieving a meaningful death penalty in this game.
oneADseven said:A toggle for XP loss should not be an option in this game. "If you want a challenge, toggle XP Loss on." No, if someone wants a challenge, they should play Pantheon. The game should be difficult by default.
Agreed. However, please give me a toggle for XP gain :)