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Pantheon: Class and Race Combinations

    • 1 posts
    February 7, 2017 1:59 PM PST

    Awwww no Dorf Shamans :( /cry

    • 272 posts
    February 7, 2017 4:19 PM PST

    Was It I who thought I was a knight

    Or was it he who dreamed to be me?

    Maybe I am not just a tree by name.

    For I still endure winters night

    To bloom in summers light.

    Perhaps I am as I have always been.

                                               -Gammy Wildwit


    This post was edited by Larr at February 8, 2017 5:17 PM PST
    • 1494 posts
    February 7, 2017 5:05 PM PST

    Beefcake said: ... Or, first try it in alpha and beta, then provide actual feedback instead of prematurely judging from screenshots and a chart.

    Core design decisions are done. By the time alpha starts, they will be implemented.  There will be little if any core design changes from now until Launch.

    In other words, for some systems?  It's too late already.  And they wouldn't be showing us these things or revealing these things if they didn't want feedback Now.

    • 873 posts
    February 8, 2017 2:27 AM PST

    @vjek

    While many basic/core design concepts will undoubtedly remain fixed between now and launch, it seems highly unlikely the developers will ignore feedback in Pre-Alpha, Alpha and Beta testing that shows any particular mechanism to be in need of tweaking, adjusting or even downright replacement!

    I imagine, for some core systems, that the design team sincerely hope these are locked in place now. For many other, less axiomatic, components they are likely in two (or even more) minds about which way will best serve the creation of a vibrant and exciting world to adventure in!

    So, yes, I feel you are perfectly right....
    .... now is the time to give reasoned feedback about information released to us, irregardless of how 'fixed in stone' we may feel it is!

    These are development forums ...
    ... and I for one plan to continue offering my (pedantic and, typically, overly long) considered opinions on any points raised by the Development team in the hopes this may allow them to better evaluate the mechanism/tool/idea under scrutiny.

    Evoras, is still slowly mulling over his Race/Class response...

    • 179 posts
    February 8, 2017 7:10 AM PST

    Ironically, I used to always hear about how things could always change in Alpha's and Beta's. But in nearly 20 years of playing MMO's rarely do major design beats change. These are things that get locked down early and committed to because they have to be in order to manage the project and move forward. Things like art style, the way models are designed, the method for level design and quest content lay out. All of these things even tend to have database back ends and therefore are pretty fixed in place. They might "evolve" rather than see major changes.

     

    For example, I doubt that we could request major changes to any aspect of what's already been seen at this point. But i'm hoping things like Class/Race combo's might still be tweaked - I think it comes down to whether or not armor and weapon models have to be redone for every race / class combination for specific types of gear like Paladin only stuff. This could involve a ton of work and I imagine they'd rather prioritize what they have rather than go back and re-create dozens if not hundreds of models to fit a new race.

     

    Nothing's "impossible". But there are lots of things that you see in Alpha / Beta that are "improbable" in regards to getting changed at those stages. I'm sure Aradune or another dev could give better examples than me since I don't know their development pipeline. I'm just giving my opinion based on personal experience. We all need to practice understanding that there are some things that just aren't going to change and need to accept and appreciate what we're going to get,  versus praying for a last minute miracle to change an aspect that might tweak us the wrong way.

    • 1162 posts
    February 8, 2017 10:16 AM PST

    Youmu said:


    ...Every race can be any class but what we as players are choosing from is what is normal for that race, culturaly and biologically, a Gnome warrior is rare and if one would come up in the lore it should be a big deal, for that character would had fought so many things to become that. The fact Humans can be everything is basically saying that they don't really have a well defined culture. The argument that Humans on earth have all cultures is, frankly stupid imo, they didn't have all those cultures at the same time in the same place, tell me how much sense it makes to play a game basted on the napoleonic era and have a samurai there.

     

    I'm fine with humans being able to choose any class, but I do think Youmu makes a valid point here. I have a hard time seeing each class having its own little bit of Thronefast. I'm hoping there are a few different starting areas for humans (and probably for some other races) based on class.

     

    Nanfoodle said:

    I get the feeling, having to wait longer to play the class and game you want can be a pain =-P Im saying its more then just waiting for a class. Im saying this also has to do with the magic of class balance. IMO Bards are not a wait till later class. Im saying they are needed to capture the magic of what made teaming awesome in EQ1. IMO, I think they would be better off waiting a month or two to get the teaming dynamic right from the start. 

     

    It's pretty unlikely that any of my first handful of characters will be a bard or a necromancer, but I agree that they should be core classes and would personally be willing to wait a few extra months for them to be in at release.  I definitely would not want them slipped in a month or two after release.  I think they've got to be in for release or they've got to wait for the first expansion.

    • 718 posts
    February 8, 2017 11:43 AM PST

    Shucklighter said:

    It's pretty unlikely that any of my first handful of characters will be a bard or a necromancer, but I agree that they should be core classes and would personally be willing to wait a few extra months for them to be in at release.  I definitely would not want them slipped in a month or two after release.  I think they've got to be in for release or they've got to wait for the first expansion.

    It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where VR slides in Necromancer and/or Bard shortly after launch as part of a patch.  If it was just a matter of a few months to get them out for launch I'm sure they would do that.  And beyond that, it seems like a missed marketing and sales opportunity to not market one or both of those classes as part of an expansion.

    • 1162 posts
    February 8, 2017 1:17 PM PST

    Nikademis said:

    Shucklighter said:

    It's pretty unlikely that any of my first handful of characters will be a bard or a necromancer, but I agree that they should be core classes and would personally be willing to wait a few extra months for them to be in at release.  I definitely would not want them slipped in a month or two after release.  I think they've got to be in for release or they've got to wait for the first expansion.

    It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where VR slides in Necromancer and/or Bard shortly after launch as part of a patch.  If it was just a matter of a few months to get them out for launch I'm sure they would do that.  And beyond that, it seems like a missed marketing and sales opportunity to not market one or both of those classes as part of an expansion.

     

    I agree with you, and I really don't understand why the team wouldn't just take the extra time to get them in for release.  They don't have any issues taking extra time for anything else.  Because of this, I feel pretty confident that bards and necromancers will both make it in for release.

    • 1680 posts
    February 8, 2017 1:24 PM PST

    Smaller, staggered content release can aid in the lag time between major expansion releases.  I know everyone wants it all at launch but I think there is some benefit to holding some things back until after release.

    • 718 posts
    February 8, 2017 1:35 PM PST

    Shucklighter said:

    I agree with you, and I really don't understand why the team wouldn't just take the extra time to get them in for release.  They don't have any issues taking extra time for anything else.  Because of this, I feel pretty confident that bards and necromancers will both make it in for release.

    Well from a marketing standpoint, the release of two new classes is an excellent selling feature for an expansion.  This potential influx of revenue could be reason enough for not releasing the two classes at launch.

    • 1162 posts
    February 8, 2017 3:28 PM PST

    I doubt they'd hold back core classes for release just so they'd have them to build an expansion around.  It doesn't really seem like they are in a position to do that.  The focus is on the initial release rather than expansions that may or may not happen.  I guess that's as good a guess as any right now, though.

    • 718 posts
    February 8, 2017 3:46 PM PST

    Shucklighter said:

    I doubt they'd hold back core classes for release just so they'd have them to build an expansion around.  It doesn't really seem like they are in a position to do that.  The focus is on the initial release rather than expansions that may or may not happen.  I guess that's as good a guess as any right now, though.

    Well you may be right.  But they also may not be holding them back, as they were not originally planned for launch (which means they could conceivably have planned for the two classes as part of an expansion all along) and it wasn't until the community's overwhelming desire for them to be in at launch have they really started pushing.  And Brad did mention that it's their goal to push out fairly regular content updates and also support an expansion team, hence their plans for a subscription based model.  Though, as you've said, this is just guessing.

    • Moderator
    • 8793 posts
    February 8, 2017 4:21 PM PST

    Nikademis said:

    Shucklighter said:

    I agree with you, and I really don't understand why the team wouldn't just take the extra time to get them in for release.  They don't have any issues taking extra time for anything else.  Because of this, I feel pretty confident that bards and necromancers will both make it in for release.

    Well from a marketing standpoint, the release of two new classes is an excellent selling feature for an expansion.  This potential influx of revenue could be reason enough for not releasing the two classes at launch.

    I can assure you it has nothing to do with marketing or revenue man, it takes an enormous amount of work to implement one class into a game, fully fleshed out with spells, abilities, animations, graphics, symbol sets, artwork, lore, and to plan ahead for balance and harmony within our game, and remembering that Druid, Ranger, Bard and Monk were Class stretch goals for our failed Kickstarter, with Gnomes and Halfings on their as Race stretch goals, we picked what we thought would be the best core mix for our game after the KS, working within our means and unfortunately Bard and Necro just didn't make the cut due to resources and time, not because we didn't think they were important.

    So, as we have said, we will try very hard to fit them in prior to release but it is a lot of work and we may not make it in time, if that happens they will be released afterwards when we can finish them off properly and implement them into our game :)

    • 1162 posts
    February 8, 2017 5:05 PM PST

    Fair enough.  Thanks for the clarification.

    • 2735 posts
    February 8, 2017 6:12 PM PST

    Aye, if they come sometime after launch that is all well and good to me. I wouldn't assume VR to hold out to try to milk a possible expansion with their inclusion. I'd much more like an expansion to add a new race (or two?) along with new lands. Either way, I appreciate their efforts. 

    • 1907 posts
    February 9, 2017 10:35 AM PST

    I actually hope they don't make it in. I want to play both Bard and Necro. However, I want to play my Dire Lord and Enchanter first. If they were at launch, the decision would be too hard for me.

    Of course, that is clearly a selfish idea.

    • 615 posts
    February 9, 2017 8:00 PM PST

    So how bout them race/class combinations?

    • 277 posts
    February 9, 2017 8:22 PM PST

    I am disappointed with a couple of the choices made for the combos, but can understand them from a lore standpoint.  For me a lot depends on how the character models turn out, since I wanted to make a Halfling Cleric.  My second choice was Elf Cleric...also not on the list.  So I am down to Human or Dark Myr unless a change is made.  I think that we all need to realize that this is the first time we have seen this list, and that it is a first pass at the combinations that VR has made.  It's possible that as the game progresses and cultures become more mixed in game, that we could see different combinations come available.  It's also possible that the *thread closed* system, if implemented, could have an effect on these combinations also.

    • Moderator
    • 8793 posts
    February 9, 2017 9:16 PM PST

    Rominian said:

    I am disappointed with a couple of the choices made for the combos, but can understand them from a lore standpoint.  For me a lot depends on how the character models turn out, since I wanted to make a Halfling Cleric.  My second choice was Elf Cleric...also not on the list.  So I am down to Human or Dark Myr unless a change is made.  I think that we all need to realize that this is the first time we have seen this list, and that it is a first pass at the combinations that VR has made.  It's possible that as the game progresses and cultures become more mixed in game, that we could see different combinations come available.  It's also possible that the *thread closed* system, if implemented, could have an effect on these combinations also.

    While it is a first pass for the community, it is not for us, we have put a lot of Time, effort, work and thought into these class/race combinations and while some of you may not be used to some of the restrictions, they make sense from a lore perspective and are actually very complicated and intrinsically entwined into the class interdependence and overall balance of Terminus, these decisions were not made lightly and it is unlikely we will change them for those reasons and more that I cannot reveal yet.

    We have taken onboard the feedback about Elf Cleric/Paladin but again, it is unlikely we will change at this stage, all I can say is that just because some people are used to different combinations in other games, doesn't mean you will see the same ones in our game, we are taking our own path and have shown that with our Dark Myr, Cold/Blue Dwarves, Archai and Gnome races.

    So my best suggestion is to open your minds and embrace the changes as they are set in place for a reason, we will reveal more as development progress. :)

    • 1828 posts
    February 9, 2017 9:49 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Rominian said:

    I am disappointed with a couple of the choices made for the combos, but can understand them from a lore standpoint.  For me a lot depends on how the character models turn out, since I wanted to make a Halfling Cleric.  My second choice was Elf Cleric...also not on the list.  So I am down to Human or Dark Myr unless a change is made.  I think that we all need to realize that this is the first time we have seen this list, and that it is a first pass at the combinations that VR has made.  It's possible that as the game progresses and cultures become more mixed in game, that we could see different combinations come available.  It's also possible that the *thread closed* system, if implemented, could have an effect on these combinations also.

    While it is a first pass for the community, it is not for us, we have put a lot of Time, effort, work and thought into these class/race combinations and while some of you may not be used to some of the restrictions, they make sense from a lore perspective and are actually very complicated and intrinsically entwined into the class interdependence and overall balance of Terminus, these decisions were not made lightly and it is unlikely we will change them for those reasons and more that I cannot reveal yet.

    We have taken onboard the feedback about Elf Cleric/Paladin but again, it is unlikely we will change at this stage, all I can say is that just because some people are used to different combinations in other games, doesn't mean you will see the same ones in our game, we are taking our own path and have shown that with our Dark Myr, Cold/Blue Dwarves, Archai and Gnome races.

    So my best suggestion is to open your minds and embrace the changes as they are set in place for a reason, we will reveal more as development progress. :)

     

    Can't wait ! :) 

    • 233 posts
    February 10, 2017 2:00 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

     

    and more that I cannot reveal yet.

    The best part of the reply for me. Nothing like having some super-secret info being dangled at us like a steak at the dog tracks…

     

    My best guess why Paladin is only for dwarfs and humans is it is somehow involving international spies and espionage or maybe some sort of demonic rituals….

    Kilsin I need you to blink twice if you are currently being held against your will….

    • 642 posts
    February 10, 2017 8:21 AM PST

    I'm still boggled by the lack of a Halfling Enchanter and surprised no one has commented (at all).

     

     

    • 277 posts
    February 10, 2017 8:31 AM PST

    Ahh, I see, I was under the impression that this was not the final rendering due to how the post started out, thanks for the clarification :)

    Kilsin said:

    Pantheon: Class and Race Combinations


    Here’s a diagram depicting our initial thoughts for Race and Class combos. This is largely based upon the current lore for each race paired with the flavor for each class. Additionally, as we continue on the road to public release (and beyond with live events and expansions), new Races, new Classes, and new combinations may become availabe. 

    • 277 posts
    February 10, 2017 8:37 AM PST

    fazool said:

    I'm still boggled by the lack of a Halfling Enchanter and surprised no one has commented (at all).

     

     

    I figured since there were no other cloth wearers for Halflings there wasn't much point, hehe.  Lore wise, perhaps Halflings, being perpetual adolescents, don't have the mental discipline to study the arcane, so I can see them excluded.  Books??! What are those? :)

    • 642 posts
    February 10, 2017 10:46 AM PST

    Rominian said:

    I figured since there were no other cloth wearers for Halflings there wasn't much point, hehe.  Lore wise, perhaps Halflings, being perpetual adolescents, don't have the mental discipline to study the arcane, so I can see them excluded.  Books??! What are those? :)

     

    All the more reason - there should be at least *ONE* pure caster.  And, lore wise, they are not mentally children (you, yourself fell for the ruse) - they are fully developed mature adults trapped in the illusory body of a child.  They are an illusion.  They are charming and disarming from their wit and mirth.  Of all the classes there are, none make more sense as an enchanter than halflings.