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Pantheon: Class and Race Combinations

    • 88 posts
    February 6, 2017 5:43 AM PST

    Inar said:

    I don't understand the "balance" issue. It's not Gnomes vs Humans, or anything. You team up with other races.

    The balance issue might come into play on a PvP server with designated teams, such as Everquest's Sullon Zek.  Sullon Zek had three teams, Good, Neutral, and Evil.  So it would seem that now would be the ideal time to think about how class, race, and deity combinations would come into play for a team based competitive server.

    • 16 posts
    February 6, 2017 6:13 AM PST

    Dwarven Cleric

    • 92 posts
    February 6, 2017 12:44 PM PST

    My main will be a Necromancer of some sort once they are added to the game. I suppose if Necros aren't available at launch, I may go Dire Lord for the similar flavor or Cleric for a more useful alt later on. Undecided on race until I see them in game but leaning toward human.

    • 614 posts
    February 6, 2017 3:09 PM PST

    Inar said:

    I don't understand the "balance" issue. It's not Gnomes vs Humans, or anything. You team up with other races.

    Yes, but if a human was so bad noone wanted to group with him....

    In addition, being able to compete on the same level as other players, even if you are not against those other players, with your own character preferences is very important to many people, even if not to you.

    • 192 posts
    February 6, 2017 4:55 PM PST

    I would argue for having Archai and Ogre paladins.  The race description of the Archai makes them fit perfectly as paladins, and Ogres would be interesting to me since they would be something different from the traditional take.  Archai would be like Erudite paladins to me and would be an ideal fit.  Also from what I read and understand, Ogres are not "evil" per se.  Why can't they have paladins as well?  The idea that there are only evil characters in an entire race is silly.  Seems neat to me to have a small but dedicated splinter group of paladins in the Ogres.  Would be something different from the norm...as an Ogre paladin you have your own "rogue" band of trainers and faction, and suffer being tolerated by most segments of the Ogre society (like the FP militia kind of for paladins of Marr in EQ).  Their page does say they value valor and honor and combat, so why not?  I would say Elves as well, but obviously that is already a point of discussion.  Personally, I would like to see Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Archai and Ogres as paladins, but honestly I could live without Elves based on the lore, especially if we get the other two.

    Also, I would not mind seeing Humans restricted from some classes.  I don't mind them being able to do almost all the classes, but like others have mentioned, I would like to see them not be able to be some of the classes.


    This post was edited by antonius at February 6, 2017 5:01 PM PST
    • 4 posts
    February 6, 2017 7:17 PM PST

    Overall, pretty awesome. I am a little concerned at lack of races for cleric/paladin as I think one or two more could fit lore wise.

    I'll probably get slammed by this but what about a huge long "betrayal" system to allow people to become their own character. A long the lines of EQ2 original where you had this crazy quest of factioning to do at a certain level (not the newer grind 20 repeatables or buy a token). Just because lore sets you one way doesn't mean a character cant find a calling somewhere else, happens all the time in lore of every fantasy game for PCs and NPCs. For example the lore has Ogre's valuing Valor and Honor, maybe one gains enough honor with a human paladin faction or guild to change their ways from a warrior to a paladin. It would have to be something that only someone who truly wanted it would go through the work to do this, possibly some rediculous shunning effect towards ones old home. This is something I wanted in EQ1 way back in the day, I would have killed to be a Barbarian Paladin. Just a thought as to possibly help with certain race/class combos not fitting into peoples ideas of what they wanted. 

    • 3385 posts
    February 6, 2017 8:25 PM PST

    Xentin said:

    Overall, pretty awesome. I am a little concerned at lack of races for cleric/paladin as I think one or two more could fit lore wise.

    I'll probably get slammed by this but what about a huge long "betrayal" system to allow people to become their own character. A long the lines of EQ2 original where you had this crazy quest of factioning to do at a certain level (not the newer grind 20 repeatables or buy a token). Just because lore sets you one way doesn't mean a character cant find a calling somewhere else, happens all the time in lore of every fantasy game for PCs and NPCs. For example the lore has Ogre's valuing Valor and Honor, maybe one gains enough honor with a human paladin faction or guild to change their ways from a warrior to a paladin. It would have to be something that only someone who truly wanted it would go through the work to do this, possibly some rediculous shunning effect towards ones old home. This is something I wanted in EQ1 way back in the day, I would have killed to be a Barbarian Paladin. Just a thought as to possibly help with certain race/class combos not fitting into peoples ideas of what they wanted. 

    I am in favor of being able to betray.  There is already a pretty big topic on this, please check out https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5125/betray-your-race-option/view/page/1

    There is also this from the FAQ:

    Will language and faction be important in Pantheon and will a player be able to betray their home faction?

    We like all of that in general -- the question comes up though: to what degree should these factions matter and does this sort of thing slip into PvP territory? If it does, you'd only see it in PvP servers. But changing your factions so NPCs will react differently to you -- this is all key to the game -- our faction system will be quite robust. Yes, you could betray your home or default factions.

     

    The answer in the FAQ doesen't really resemble what you and I are looking for, which is the ability to betray class, not home-faction.  I mention in the betrayal thread how I played a troll paladin in EQ2.  Was a lot of fun.  I doubt we'll see something like that in Pantheon but it doesen't hurt to share your input on the matter.  Have a look at the thread I linked and feel free to respond!

    • 459 posts
    February 7, 2017 5:25 AM PST

    Bards where a glue that made teaming so magicical in EQ1. Having them missing at launch will be a mistake IMO. These jack of all trades really made EQ1 unique a home for a type of player, who playing a support class that job is always changing, their home. I beg you reconsider not having the bard at launch. 

    • 3385 posts
    February 7, 2017 5:57 AM PST

    Nanfoodle said:

    Bards where a glue that made teaming so magicical in EQ1. Having them missing at launch will be a mistake IMO. These jack of all trades really made EQ1 unique a home for a type of player, who playing a support class that job is always changing, their home. I beg you reconsider not having the bard at launch. 

    I would wait an extra month or two for the game to release if it means we'll have bard and necromancers on launch ... and I don't even plan on playing either class.  My understanding is that they are making a genuine effort for both classes to be available at launch, but it isn't promised.  Keep your head up ... there is hope!  =D

    • 4377 posts
    February 7, 2017 5:59 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    Nanfoodle said:

    Bards where a glue that made teaming so magicical in EQ1. Having them missing at launch will be a mistake IMO. These jack of all trades really made EQ1 unique a home for a type of player, who playing a support class that job is always changing, their home. I beg you reconsider not having the bard at launch. 

    I would wait an extra month or two for the game to release if it means we'll have bard and necromancers on launch ... and I don't even plan on playing either class.  My understanding is that they are making a genuine effort for both classes to be available at launch, but it isn't promised.  Keep your head up ... there is hope!  =D

    This is correct - it's not that VR has decided to not include bards at launch. They're really trying.. they just can't guarantee that the class will be done in time, because they need to make sure that it's done right. There's nothing wrong with that. However, I would not be willing to wait two months for the game to launch with classes that I'm not gonna play. I mean, I'll probably experiment with them, but only as minor alts. Either way, they can wait till an expansion lol. But I think the fact that they're included on this chart means they have reasonable confidence that they'll either be in at launch or very soon after.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at February 7, 2017 6:04 AM PST
    • 38 posts
    February 7, 2017 6:19 AM PST

    Can work with this :) As long as there's a cleric and ranger, I'm set!

     

    • 459 posts
    February 7, 2017 6:23 AM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    oneADseven said:

    Nanfoodle said:

    Bards where a glue that made teaming so magicical in EQ1. Having them missing at launch will be a mistake IMO. These jack of all trades really made EQ1 unique a home for a type of player, who playing a support class that job is always changing, their home. I beg you reconsider not having the bard at launch. 

    I would wait an extra month or two for the game to release if it means we'll have bard and necromancers on launch ... and I don't even plan on playing either class.  My understanding is that they are making a genuine effort for both classes to be available at launch, but it isn't promised.  Keep your head up ... there is hope!  =D

    This is correct - it's not that VR has decided to not include bards at launch. They're really trying.. they just can't guarantee that the class will be done in time, because they need to make sure that it's done right. There's nothing wrong with that. However, I would not be willing to wait two months for the game to launch with classes that I'm not gonna play. I mean, I'll probably experiment with them, but only as minor alts. Either way, they can wait till an expansion lol. But I think the fact that they're included on this chart means they have reasonable confidence that they'll either be in at launch or very soon after.

    I get the feeling, having to wait longer to play the class and game you want can be a pain =-P Im saying its more then just waiting for a class. Im saying this also has to do with the magic of class balance. IMO Bards are not a wait till later class. Im saying they are needed to capture the magic of what made teaming awesome in EQ1. IMO, I think they would be better off waiting a month or two to get the teaming dynamic right from the start. 

    • 7 posts
    February 7, 2017 6:34 AM PST

    My favorite class has always been a human ranger. That's how I'll start here. That being said, I love having a lot of alts! You can expect me to try a few things.

    • 115 posts
    February 7, 2017 6:58 AM PST

    Beefcake said:

    I have to agree here. People are shouting about Balance, because they claim there will barely be any clerics/paladins and only those classes can handle the toughest content.

    This is not EQ, Vanguard, or anything else. This is Pantheon. You have no foundation to claim that content will not be completed well without Elven Clerics. 

    We have no real information about how the classes will be done. Don't judge until we see what the facts are.  Alpha and Beta will do that.

    Save the doom and gloom until it's actually happening.

    Keep calm. Have an open mind. If you don't trust in the experience and expertise of VR, you are in the wrong place. 

    This times ten. It's ok to be concerned about the race/class combos and potential balance issues. But let's not call it a failure (or a triumph for that matter) until we actually get to test the game.

    • 266 posts
    February 7, 2017 7:26 AM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Save the doom and gloom until it's actually happening.

    Lghtngfan said:

    But let's not call it a failure (or a triumph for that matter) until we actually get to test the game.

    How about we calmly and constructively provide feedback.  I still think that's why we're here.  Sitting around waiting for VR to bring Pantheon down from the mountaintop on stone tablets isn't any more constructive than extrapolating wildly based on unfounded assumptions and then flipping out.


    This post was edited by Shai at February 7, 2017 7:27 AM PST
    • 310 posts
    February 7, 2017 8:56 AM PST

    Great stuff.  I like that there are some..uniqueness to the race/class combos.  Even moreso after reading the why as to these choices.  I really like the fact that the lore isn't just some thing in the back you can read if you like as it seems to be in a great many a game today.  Kudos guys and keep up the great work!!

    • 114 posts
    February 7, 2017 9:09 AM PST

    Absolutely splendid.

    • 1491 posts
    February 7, 2017 9:16 AM PST

    Shai said: ... How about we calmly and constructively provide feedback.  I still think that's why we're here.  Sitting around waiting for VR to bring Pantheon down from the mountaintop on stone tablets isn't any more constructive than extrapolating wildly based on unfounded assumptions and then flipping out.

    Agreed.  Having seen two other small-team MMO's fail in the past 5 years, I'm not going to wait and see.  I have no faith that VR is perfect.  They're imperfect humans, just like me, and just like those other failed development teams.  I'm going to tell them, directly.  Constructively at first, and then negatively.  If I have seen an MMO mechanic tried and failed many times since 1995, you can bet your last copper piece I'm going to tell them it's a bad idea.

    I do not and will never understand the mental state of "I can't imagine that, so it must be wrong or it should be ignored" or "you can't predict the future".  Yes, you can.  With alarming certainty, depending on the context.

    The time for core design decisions has passed.  It's done.  We can no longer, as customers, affect any of those design decisions in any meaningful way.  As time progresses, the amount of influence customer feedback will have will continue to diminish the longer systems are in place.  This is how it has always been with software design, development, implementation and maintenance, and I see no evidence it will change with VR and Pantheon.

    Want an example?  Here's one: darkness.

    SOTA tried absolute darkness.  Original design decision: " our game will be dark .  At night, you will not be able to see."  The reality?  " We're going to limit torch radius to 5 meters, but have mob aggro radius be 15 meters. "  Hundreds of posts of negative feedback, with screenshots, videos and passionate pleas.  The devs finally relented, and upped ambient light such that you could actually see the 15 mobs that were about to kill you, rather than just having them kill you with absolutely no chance of escape.  Now, it's still pretty dark in SOTA at night, but it's not pitch black.

    Fast forward to these forums for these games, and the screenshots we've seen so far.  In some cases, VERY DARK.  Even with torches, VERY DARK.  Screenshots devoid of color.  Grey, dark grey, charcoal, and black.  Ok, so, how is this going to go down?  Are 10,000 happy fans going to say:  We love the darkness.  I attack ... the darkness!

    No, they're going to say "What the crap man?  Why can't I see the environment I'm supposed to be interacting with?"  " Who thought running around in pure blackness was a good idea?"  Oh riiiiiiight.  Less than 10 vocal forum posters.  Those guys.  Riiiiiight. :|  Gee, it's almost like.. oh hey, look, this has happened before!  Like... 10 times in the past 20 years!  Yeah.

    Calm and constructive feedback first.  Check.

    Ranting, negative, loud and persistent feedback second.  Check.

    • 4377 posts
    February 7, 2017 9:26 AM PST

    halflingwarrior said:

    Absolutely splendid.

    I have to ask - if Halfling Warrior wasn't an available combination, would you still feel the same way? lol

    • 1986 posts
    February 7, 2017 9:34 AM PST
    @View

    I wouldn't worry about it overly much. I think VR is aware of issues and failures of other games. And in some cases you might need to just actually try something first.
    • 1828 posts
    February 7, 2017 9:38 AM PST

    Shai said:

    Beefcake said:

    Save the doom and gloom until it's actually happening.

    Lghtngfan said:

    But let's not call it a failure (or a triumph for that matter) until we actually get to test the game.

    How about we calmly and constructively provide feedback.  I still think that's why we're here.  Sitting around waiting for VR to bring Pantheon down from the mountaintop on stone tablets isn't any more constructive than extrapolating wildly based on unfounded assumptions and then flipping out.

     

    That was a great mental picture Shai ! :)  

    • 80 posts
    February 7, 2017 9:46 AM PST

    First off, I think Dwarven enchanters and Ogre druids are a bit of a stretch. They kind of feel like difference for its own sake.

    That said, I've always felt that every race should have options for all roles - not for reasons of balance, but because it just makes sense, in any case where a particular race has areas to which they are indigenous. I guess I could understand if a particular race is not spiritual at all or were never "gifted" with the arcane, but tanking and DPS are pretty much base roles that even the animal kingdom is able to fill.

     

    • 114 posts
    February 7, 2017 11:20 AM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    halflingwarrior said:

    Absolutely splendid.

    I have to ask - if Halfling Warrior wasn't an available combination, would you still feel the same way? lol

    I'm glad someone said this haha. It's crazy, when I first heard about pantheon I figured I would have to reroll my old halfling warrior from EQ, but in the past month or so I have been really feeling the idea of being a wandering monk on his search for zen in the lands of Terminus. I'm sure I will have my halfling warrior alt, but I think I will be maining either an Archai Monk or Human.

    • 1907 posts
    February 7, 2017 11:58 AM PST

    vjek said:

    Shai said: ... How about we calmly and constructively provide feedback.  I still think that's why we're here.  Sitting around waiting for VR to bring Pantheon down from the mountaintop on stone tablets isn't any more constructive than extrapolating wildly based on unfounded assumptions and then flipping out.

    Calm and constructive feedback first.  Check.

    Ranting, negative, loud and persistent feedback second.  Check.

    Or, first try it in alpha and beta, then provide actual feedback instead of prematurely judging from screenshots and a chart.

    • 5 posts
    February 7, 2017 1:32 PM PST

    I would play a Human Monk. I must admit I was hoping for a Dwarven Monk, but hey!