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Pantheon: Class and Race Combinations

    • 277 posts
    February 14, 2017 11:08 AM PST

    Well I don't think it would, specifically, make the class suffer in anything but how many people choose to play them.  For some players, race is more or as important as class.  For others, class is the most important.  As an example, I was going to have a Cleric be my main character.  Since the races I want to play do not have Cleric available, I am no longer playing a Cleric.  This is not a vindictive choice, and I am not whining and complaining, it is simply what I will do.  All it really means is there will be one less Cleric being played out there, and does that matter in the scope of things?  Meh, not really. 

    What I understand Verdic's point to be (and I could definitely be wrong) is that with two races available to the Paladin class, it will be underplayed.  An underplayed class could lead to less development time, which leads to player frustration, which leads to the class being marginalized.  If there are 15,000 Rogues all having an issue in game and calling for a fix, and 100 Paladins also having an issue and calling for a fix, where will resources be directed do we think?  Would there even be a Paladin class manager under these circumstances?  All this being said, I do have confidence in VR and as someone said, they are well aware of Paladins only having two playable races.  Another thing to consider is that if they add Paladins to another race, by default they must add Clerics since Paladins are Clerics that have chosen to go beyond their original calling.  And of course there is the disclaimer: we have yet to see how VR will handle ANY of the classes going forward, heavens we only have 3 that have been revealed, and even those might change a bit here and there.    


    This post was edited by Rominian at February 14, 2017 11:15 AM PST
    • 913 posts
    February 14, 2017 11:38 AM PST

    Rominian said:

    Well I don't think it would, specifically, make the class suffer in anything but how many people choose to play them.  For some players, race is more or as important as class.  For others, class is the most important.  As an example, I was going to have a Cleric be my main character.  Since the races I want to play do not have Cleric available, I am no longer playing a Cleric.  This is not a vindictive choice, and I am not whining and complaining, it is simply what I will do.  All it really means is there will be one less Cleric being played out there, and does that matter in the scope of things?  Meh, not really. 

    What I understand Verdic's point to be (and I could definitely be wrong) is that with two races available to the Paladin class, it will be underplayed.  An underplayed class could lead to less development time, which leads to player frustration, which leads to the class being marginalized.  If there are 15,000 Rogues all having an issue in game and calling for a fix, and 100 Paladins also having an issue and calling for a fix, where will resources be directed do we think?  Would there even be a Paladin class manager under these circumstances?  All this being said, I do have confidence in VR and as someone said, they are well aware of Paladins only having two playable races.  Another thing to consider is that if they add Paladins to another race, by default they must add Clerics since Paladins are Clerics that have chosen to go beyond their original calling.  And of course there is the disclaimer: we have yet to see how VR will handle ANY of the classes going forward, heavens we only have 3 that have been revealed, and even those might change a bit here and there.    

    Well put Rominian.  Being a DE SHD in EQ as my main I was honestly hoping to play the Paladin in Pantheon... but when I play a fantasy RPG, I want to fantasize that I'm something other than what I am IRL (human) and there is no way I will ever play a dwarf (or halfling) in any game due to personal RP preference/bias.  The way I play one race is very different than how I play annother (espcially gnomes).  Unless the customization/racial benefit of Humans is incredible I will unfortunately not play the class that I was hoping wouldn't be pigeonholed into being human; and if I'm choosing my race solely on racial benefit then my game mentality goes from RP to meta-gaming min/max which completely changes the feel of a game for me.

    Thats just how I feel; I'm certain there are many that would disagree with me.

    I would point out though (in regard to your statement about VR adding Paladin to another race having to add Cleric) that the Dark Myr have the cleric available to them, but not the Paladin.  :(  If the DM were allowed to be Paladin I would definitely play that.  I agree that according to their "currently displayed" class lore that the Paladin is a former Cleric so using that rational, why wouldn't Paladin be available to Dark Myr?  Paladin is a holy/righteous fighter... if a race can be a cleric AND warrior, why woudn't there be Paladins.  Good or evil in the case of a righteous cause is a matter of perspective; a champion of one's god thinks they are doing the right thing in the name of their religion.

    Disclaimer for above paragraph:  I know it has been stated that there are deeper reasons for the race/class combos...


    This post was edited by Darch at February 14, 2017 1:45 PM PST
    • 179 posts
    February 14, 2017 12:42 PM PST

    Close enough Rominian. I appreciate your thoughts. And in so far as Shaman and Monks go - They were also spearheded by far more utility than the Paladin class had. Nevermind the fact if you wanted a good stat buff you went to the Shaman. Period. They were designed to be the poster child for a support buffing class. Hybrids are not. Monks again had excellent pulling utilities and brought decent DPS as well. Again, they were unique and brought excellent utility. Paladin's did not. Later the Iksar Monk would be an incredible meta choice and preferred by lots of players post-Kunark.

     

    Rominian said:

    Well I don't think it would, specifically, make the class suffer in anything but how many people choose to play them.  For some players, race is more or as important as class.  For others, class is the most important.  As an example, I was going to have a Cleric be my main character.  Since the races I want to play do not have Cleric available, I am no longer playing a Cleric.  This is not a vindictive choice, and I am not whining and complaining, it is simply what I will do.  All it really means is there will be one less Cleric being played out there, and does that matter in the scope of things?  Meh, not really. 

    What I understand Verdic's point to be (and I could definitely be wrong) is that with two races available to the Paladin class, it will be underplayed.  An underplayed class could lead to less development time, which leads to player frustration, which leads to the class being marginalized.  If there are 15,000 Rogues all having an issue in game and calling for a fix, and 100 Paladins also having an issue and calling for a fix, where will resources be directed do we think?  Would there even be a Paladin class manager under these circumstances?  All this being said, I do have confidence in VR and as someone said, they are well aware of Paladins only having two playable races.  Another thing to consider is that if they add Paladins to another race, by default they must add Clerics since Paladins are Clerics that have chosen to go beyond their original calling.  And of course there is the disclaimer: we have yet to see how VR will handle ANY of the classes going forward, heavens we only have 3 that have been revealed, and even those might change a bit here and there.    

    • 14 posts
    February 16, 2017 9:56 AM PST

    No elf or halfling clerics.... that is a big let down!!!!

    • 191 posts
    February 16, 2017 7:54 PM PST

    I have just a couple note to throw out.  Not that they'll change any minds, but just some things to consider.  Technical and lore/feel thoughts.

    1) No healing or tanking classes for Gnomes?

    I understand the reasoning, and I'm not sure me thinking about it offhand (not that I know all the class lores and such) that I can think of how Shaman or Druids would fit Gnomes, and Clerics only in the loosest possible terms (some Gnomes seeking a "different kind of knowlege/power") or possibly Shaman in the "spirit/soul" magic but that fits more the Necro than the ancester power of a SHaman...but I just remember in WoW there was a big thing for years that there could be no all-Gnome guilds/raid groups because they had no access to healers.  They would have to "hire" Dwarven ones (their closest cousin and ally race in the game), but this was kind of annoying to them, and in a way a reclusive race like Gnomes in Pantheon would seem to rather stick with their own kind anyway.  Of course, in Pantheon, it's doubled-down on - it appears Gnomes have no tank classes either!  XD  Unless Summoner/Necromancer pet tanking or Rogue evasion tanking is going to be a thing...?

    (Bah, I bring this up again in a later point, but whatever...this is the practical argument, I make a more lore-y argument later.  And I don't even intend to play a Gnome!)

    .

    2) Dirges are music too?! YES!  But what about...

    While you mentioned a Dark Myr immitating good humor and the power of dirges, how could you leave out SIRENS?!  To me, this is just as obvious a connection.  Enchanting, beautiful but sad music that tugs at the soul.  I've heard some melodies that haunt me for years, and that I'm entirely content with the haunting, because of their ethereal beauty.  I found a game recently on Youtube (never played it, but watched the whole 4 hour thing...apparently it has a sequel that was recently given a release date...), Nier has music like that and it just tugs at the soul.  And I've heard some other pieces like that in other games (the Night Elf music from WoW, some of the more vocal heavy music in Xenosaga as examples).  Sadly, not NEARLY enough artists/games/musicians/singers delve into that kind of awesomeness.  I think that kind of music is every bit Bardish to a race like the Dark Myr...which also brings me to a sort of question: Will the different races have different kind of spells/abilities in the case of some classes?  Dark Myr having mournful dirges that dispirit enemies while granting their allies stoicism or Halfling's having cheerful music to lift the soul and lighten the feet/quicken the swordarm?  I remember back when WoW was early on where some classes like the Priests had race specific abilities.  You know, before all the homogenization...

    .

    3) Elf Paladins/Clerics...?

    Did...the Elves just piss off the gods or something?  They don't seem like an unholy race, and they aren't physically/mentally/spiritaully weak such that they wouldn't be able to contain such awesome power, nor did the lore about them (maybe I just don't know enough of it) seem to indicate they would have cause to hate/dislike the gods and so shun their powers.  I'm kind of neutral on this one, mostly just because Dwarves/Humans/Elves tend to be the trinity of "super good and holy" races (with Halflings off to the side as quintessentially GOOD, but not necessarily in the holy-ish way).  Though it does tend to make sense to me that for a race to have Paladins, they need have Clerics as a baseline, with the Paladin being the more exclusive of them.  Paladins seem to be the most exclusive of all the classes - only two possible race combinations for them.  Though they're both good choices for the class, imo.

    .

    4) Dark Myr can be Druids...

    ...but not Rangers?  Granted, this is also true of Ogres and Archai, but Ogres are a little lacking in dexterity (same argument against Orgre Rogues), but unless I'm missing something, that seems untrue of the Dark Myr.  Or is it more their ties to water than forests?  Although that begs the question how they have an affinity for Druidic arts...  Then again, Rangers have a sort of mythos similar in a way to Paladins, so I could see that being a decent justification.

    .

    5) Dwarf and Skar Rogues..?

    I mean...I dunno, I just...don't really see it?  o.O

    .

    6) Gnome Rogues but not Gnome Warriors...and again, not Gnome Clerics...

    This is a distinction I don't really understand.  I can understand no Gnome Rangers (or Druids - no affinity for the natural world), but no Warriors?  They seem able to wear armor and wield corporeal weapons and employ them in combat, considering they can be Rogues.  It seems odd they would oppose wearing slightly heavier armor and wielding somewhat heavier corporeal weapons to be Warriors.  I'm not sure if this is so much a good argument for Gnome Warriors or a good argument against Gnome Rogues, take it for what you will.  While you could suggest Gnome Rogues make sense because they're more lithe and all that, their lore speaks to a quest for knowledge and power.  And the Rogue profession doesn't really offer that.  In a way, Gnome Clerics makes more logical sense than Gnome Rogues.  Clerics being a class that amasses essentially demi-god like power from attuning with ancient relics and purifying/fortifying one's own soul.  I'm honestly surprised there isn't some kind of lore for Gnome Clerics, as it still kind of makes more sense to me (especially with Pantheon's Clerics being more paragons of lost knowledge and gnostic arcanum than they are priests to an extant religion or diety/dieties) than Gnome Rogues does.  Don't get me wrong, short energy mummies from WoW's outter space as Rogues is plenty AWESOME to me, but lore-wise, it seems not to make as much sense.  The argument for Gnome Rogues seems to be "It's cool!" (which it is!), but the arguments for Gnome Clerics might make more of a lore fit (especially with race specific spells/abilities in the game), and the argument for Gnome Rogues can almost be coppied wholesale for Gnome Warriors.

    .

    7) Ogres can't sing?

    While I've no doubt an Orge and a lute aren't compatible, considering the outside of the normal box you guys are clearly comfortable looking at with regards to Dark Myr, why is there no room in that outside of the box...box...for Orges belting gutteral war cry?  Are war drums not a thing?  Are bestial, tribal dances and cave pantings missing from Orgre history entirely?  Granted, they likely couldn't join in reverous artistic expressions readily, but when it comes to songs of war and warrior ballad, it seems they would have something to contribute to Terminus' artistic legacy, don't you think?  One would think even some Gnomes would have some tendency for archival and retelling of knowledge, but Ogres would do so with somewhat more...gusto.  Ogres CAN be Shaman, which implies they have a capacity for learning oral history, stories, and lore from their ancestors and the Ancients.  Yet somehow there's a curse on them such that they cannot sing it?  This is especially odd since, for un-educated, illiterate periods of Human history on planet Earth, this is HOW people kept history: Oral histories were made into songs since that makes it easier to remember.  Like how I was taught my mulitplication tables with math-rap, entire books were committed to memory in the form of "songs".  Many times, these didn't have much melody and you might not think them very GOOD songs by today's standards of music, but it's how people kept oral histories for thousands of years in our own species.  It seems a bit odd to me that Ogres, who have the gift for Shamanism, lack this ability...

    .

    14) "Monk!  I need a MONNNK!!"  *

    I'll grant you guys haven't released enough for me to latch onto the Monk class yet, but it seems to me there aren't a lot of them.  Maybe they just aren't compatible with, say, Elves (who have the mental/physical discipline to become Rangers) or Dwarves (who have the mental/physical discipline to become Paladins) or Ogres (who have the mental/physical discipline to become Dire Lords...granted, that could be more of a pact for power than discipline), or perhaps it just doesn't fit thematically (like Gnome Rogues...), but it just seems to be a limited class.  I'll reserve judgement until I can see their actual lore and what Monks ARE in Terminus, but just thought I'd point it out.  Mostly because I wanted to make that reference.  :D

    *God, if anyone gets this reference, I'll be surprised...

    .

    8) Dwarves can be Enchanters...but not Wizards...?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Wizards are those who harnes knowledge and turn it into raw POWER, while Enchanters can be thought of as specialist Wizards.  Those who shape knowledge more into ethereal power - power of thoughts and the mind.  A Wizard applies knowledge into power on the physical plane whereas an Enchanter's true battlefield is applying knowledge into power in the astral plane of the mind.  Where a Wizard would simply blast your head off with a fireball, an Enchanter gets into your head with a dire charm.  This strikes me as the difference between being able to place pressure on a wound or sear a wound shut with hot iron to the ability of brain surgery.  That is, a blunt (though effective) knowledge versus a specialized, and much more precise and...touchy...application of skill and knowledge.  Not to disparage EMTs, but there's a reason one can become one in a year or two whereas a brain surgeon takes closer to a decade.  Anyway, the point:  Why can Dwarves become this magical specialist (Enchanters) but not the magical generalist (Wizards)?  The argument would be akin to a race being able to be a Paladin but not being able to be a Warrior - being able to do the "harder" job, but not the "simplier" (though, again, effective) job.  Can anyone shed some light on this for me?  Maybe Dwarven Enchanters simply blink flashlights on and off in enemies' eyes to confuse them, but...I don't think that's really a good way of looking at it.  I get not being OTHER specialists (Summoners, Necromancers for example), but it strikes me that ANY knowledged based magical affinity race should be able to be Wizards as the baseline, just as any race with a physical form being able to be Warriors as a baseline makes sense, or any race with some kind of holy/diety affinity can have Clerics as a base.  Get what I'm saying, or am I just spitting confusing thoughts into words...in which case I can try to clerify sometime...?

    8b) Skar can be Necromancers...but not Wizards...?

    Okay, this one at least makes SOME sense to me.  While I think of Necromancers as a specialty Wizard as well, unlike Enchanters and Summoners who, like Wizards, gain their powers through study, Necromancers CAN gain their powers through study, but can also gain them through dark pacts.  So this one I am a little more readily able to buy.  (To a lesser extent, Summoners are also a pact based class, though more leaning on the knowledge side whereas Necros of one race being mainly from dark pacts is entirely reasonable).  I still think the "magicy class having Wizard baseline" argument makes a lot of sense, but of the "specialty" mage classes, Necros are the one that an exception to this rule would make some sense on.

    .

    9) Class race for the quatrinity!

    In line with my mechanical look at the Gnomes raised in point (1), I tend to look at see if all the races have access to at least one of each of the four roles, so that no matter what race a player identifies with, they can find a class that fits their playstyle.  This seems to largely be true, although I don't know the mechanics of all the classes to be certain.  Every race (save Gnomes) has Warriors, which gives them at least one tank.  Dark Myr, Dwarves, Ogres, and Skars have two, and Humans have all three.  Every race (except Gnomes...) has at least one healer.  Archai, Dark Myr, Elves, and Ogres have two, and Humans have all three.  (Of course, this also depends on if Bards are going to be classed more akin to Healers or more akin to Support/Crowd Control).  Although I'm not sure what all falls under the fourth "Support/CC" rating, it seems every race (thankfully, even Gnomes!) has access to the grouping, which I believe can loosely be considered to include Bards, Enchanters, Necromancers, and Wizards, if not also Summoners (with some being made for the role with others having merely some skill at it).

    So with the exception of Gnomes lacking both healing and tanking capability (again, unless Necromancers/Summoners can pet tank/heal and/or Rogues can evasion tank), every other race seems not to be stymied by a lack of quatrinity options.

    .

    I guess that's about all I've got for now.  At least maybe it was/is an interesting read for some people...?  :)

    • 191 posts
    February 20, 2017 10:16 PM PST

    Hm...the more I've thought about it, the more I can't shake it: The one issue I have with this is Gnome Rogues.

    Gnome Rogues don't really make a lot of sense for an energy race to use corporeal weapons.  I feel like this was a "we think this is cool and want to play it" decision rather than a "this makes sense in lore" decision.  Assassination and stealing gold doesn't really mesh with the Gnome proclivity for seeking knowledge.

    If anything, Gnome CLERICS makes more sense - in Pantheon's lore, Clerics aren't Priests like in normal games.  What it seems to be is the Celestials (Gods) have pulled far away from Terminus and/or died, and what Clerics do to gain power is research ancient artifacts, study religious texts, and glean/absorb power from doing so, to the point that they become a semi-divine being themselves.

    ***NOTE: The crux of all this is that we need to think outside the box and not think about classes/races in the normal ways, right?  I'm doing this MOST freely with Cleric here, because the Pantheon Cleric is interesting to me in that it ISN'T the normal Priest class part of some theology.  Rather the Clerics themselves basically become semi-divine beings through study and attunement to ancient rites and artifacts.  Basically, they absorb leftover Celestial energies...kind of like what Warlocks or Necromancers do, just...not in an evil, unholy sort of way.  They aren't stealing life energy from something living, but rather siphoning holy energy off of left overs from previous eras.

    In any case, the point is that I AM looking outside of the normal boxes, which is why I think Gnome Clerics actually makes a whole lot of SENSE.***

    This sounds far more up the Gnomes' collective alley than sneaking in shadows and cutting purses, don't you think?

    Further, Gnome Rogues seems to imply that Gnome Warriors would make sense - the fact that there's a large number of Gnomes that have no problem taking up corporeal weapons, wearing corporeal armor, using corporeal martial training, and using corporeal implements like poisons seems to imply that they have no issue with doing so.  As such, they should be able to be Warriors.  The fact that Halflings can be implies that the armor/weapons/martial skill isn't something that requires strength or a "normal adult body" (in the case of the Halflings), such that it makes sense for Gnomes as well.

    That is:

    1) Gnome Clerics makes more sense than Gnome Rogues.
    2) If Gnome Rogues, then Gnome Warriors.

    Note that ALL OTHER RACES that can be Rogues can also be Warriors, but not all races that can be Warriors can be Rogues.  The implication is that ROGUE, not WARRIOR, is the more difficult/unusual thing in a society, whereas Warrior is the more baseline martial tradition.  Add to that that, in Pantheon, the class description even calls out that WARRIORS train the MIND as well as the body, turning their mind into a tactical/strategic weapon.  This seems like something that would be fitting to Gnomes as well, does it not?

    .

    So I get the lore arguments - but as my description of Clerics above should attest, I think that Gnome Rogue is kind of an non-sensical combination, while Gnome Cleric is a missed opportunity, and if you ARE going to have Gnome Rogues, Gnome Warriors makes about the same amount of sense.

    .

    Also, someone on Reddit made a comment about how EQ had few Gnome Warriors and Clerics due to poor stats (and most Barbarians were Warriors and Shaman) and how it was cool to him that this kind of made sense with the races.  That is, the players basically CHOSE to do what made sense in lore due to the design decision on how stats were between the races vs what stats were most useful to different classes.  My reply to that would also work here:

    "Right, but as you point out, this happened organically: Gnomes COULD be Clerics and Warriors, but their stats were set up such that few PLAYERS chose to do so.  This is why it made sense.  Not only was the lore supported while providing those options, but the playerbase ITSELF mirrored what you would have expected from the Gnome/Barbarian societies!

    That, to me, is brilliant game design.  When you design the game such that the players basically do what you want them to without thinking about it or noticing it.

    It's like...if you've ever seen that Futureama episode where Bender basically meets God, and God says something to the effect of "If you do things right, nobody will notice you did anything at all"?  Have you ever seen that one (or youtubed it)?

    It's like that:  Brilliant game design."

    .

    ...so I've provided lore arguments that ALSO satisfy the technical arguments of class/race balance and leveling.

    If you really stop and think about it...I dunno, I'd like to know what part of this DOESN'T make sense.  :)

    • 8 posts
    February 20, 2017 10:55 PM PST

    Two things come to my mind, I do see your points and they are valid yet I see things a tad different.  Typical gnome would be the tinkering mind expanding race.. Yet in all races you have those that choose not to educate, those that choose not to "follow" the path of their civilization.  Generally when this comes into play, crime then comes into play for survival or they are outcast.  Thus the gnome that was not the best tinkerer and was more the daydreamer found himself an adult with little to nothing to offer civilization.  How would he then survive?  Small, agile etc.. Would make a good Rogue.  Doing what has to be done to survive as he strayed off the typical social path.

     

    On the opposing side the Warrior side, just because a gnome could wear plate and pick up a sword...(or be a sneaky little guy with a dagger)  Does not mean they would be nearly as effective in battle against a 20ft goblin over well just about any other race that stood over 3ft tall..   So physical limitations here do exists but not on the rogue side, the limitations you put on the rogue would be only if they "all" fit the social norm, yet as we know all societies have those that do not fid the "norm".

     

    One side is basically a physical arguement, the other side you have to consider the social aspect.. Possibly could be a faction aspect to the Gnome Rogue.. He may not be amiable to all those in his city due to his choice of lifestyle.. Something that he could improve with tasks or diminish with actions.

     

    Just my 2cents

     

     

    • 191 posts
    February 20, 2017 11:40 PM PST

    The ONE tinesy problem I have with that Warrior counter:

    Halflings can be Warriors.

    Besides which, at some point or another, we'll be fighting 50 foot dragons that could probably fit even a huge Ogre in a single bite.  So the argument that they wouldn't make GOOD Warriors isn't the same as an argument that they cannot be Warriors AT ALL, right?  This argument is dealt with through race stats, not through class restriction.  Like a Gnome Warrior (and likely a Halfling one, too) would have -5% stamina or health compared to, say, a Human Warrior, with a Dwarven Warrior having +5% stamina and health.  This means that the Dwarf would be stronger in the role, but not that the Gnome or Halfling couldn't be a Warrior, or a respectable one due to advantages they have in other areas (like Halflings having higher dexterity and thus dodging more or Gnomes having more intelligence so more skill and ability to parry or a resistance to physical damage due to being a non-corporeal race.)

    As you point out, some Gnomes might be outcasts and they're adventurous little guys, so they take on the path of a dungeon crawler...yet by that token, might some take on the path of a sellsword?  That is, might some take on the role of Warrior? 

    Again: No Gnome Warriors makes sense if there are no Gnome Rogues.  But if there are Gnome Rogues, Gnome Warriors seems like an anotomatic inclusion kind of by necessity - of the two, it is easier to learn and master how to be a Warrior as a class of thing than a Rogue.  Granted Gnomes have a natural inclination towards stealth due to their bodies, but they should not be unable to be Warriors.  The physical argument goes away by the fact they CAN be Rogues, and the physique argument goes away by the fact that Halflings CAN be Warriors.

    .

    And...I also think my Cleric argument for Gnomes is a pretty damn good one.  :)  The more I think about it, the more it seems that Gnome Clerics makes a heck of a lot of since considering Clerics aren't Priests in the traditional MMO sense, nor even Clerics in the traditional D&D sense.  That is, they're a knowledge based form of Priest archetype rather than the typical spirit/piety based form of Priest archetype.

    • 2734 posts
    February 21, 2017 1:11 AM PST

    Gnome Rogue makes plenty of sense, and comparing rogue to warrior is comparing ballet dancers to freight trains. They just don't compare. Gnome's having an inclination or particular skill at being stealthy makes plenty of sense, especially in ther pursuit of knowledge. I'd wager more than one gnome has sought to steal some tomes/scrolls from another. They are small, stealthy, and smart. You don't need brute force to wield a dagger, you just need to know where to stick it/how to identify weak spots. With their almost entirely ethereal forms I'd say using a dagger for precision striking is much more in the realm of possibiliy compared to stomping around in full plate with a big 2-hander or sword and shield, which I imagine they wouldn't even be able to use given the fragility of their state. 

     

    As for cleric? The gnomes are from a different world, seemingly one without any celestials or otherwise knowledge of them. As such they wouldn't have much knowledge of anything divine as they are still very new to Terminus. On top of which, given their history/lore, I imagine that in general they wouldn't be too keen on getting themselves into even more objects of foreign power/energy or anything having to do with purifying or otherwise altering their already fragile souls. 

    • 191 posts
    February 21, 2017 4:30 PM PST

    I'll address the second point first: (Sorry, I love good debates and playing devil's advocate...but I enjoy lore discussions and haven't had a game world/lore that I've been this interested in discussiong for quite some time, so please don't take my excitement to be antagonism.)

    "As for cleric? The gnomes are from a different world, seemingly one without any celestials or otherwise knowledge of them. As such they wouldn't have much knowledge of anything divine as they are still very new to Terminus."

    This is the beauty of Terminus, though:

    Unless I VASTLY misunderstood, EVERYONE on Terminus is from "a different world".  Unless they've changed it since I read it, Terminus came to being with the big awesome god/goddess saw that Entropy was about to lead to the heat death of the universe and, in a last ditch effort to stave it off, took parts of a lot of different worlds and slammed them together into a gestalt/hybrid/Frankenstein's monster/patchwork world.  In an odd sort of way, this kind of makes sense - while the laws of Thermodynamics suggest that every action will result in more entropy in the system (universe in this case) as a whole, it is also interesting that LOCALIZED decreases in entropy are possible provided the net entropy of the whole increases.  For example, an individual oranism may evolve into a more ordered form, but in so doing, the surrounding world will become more decayed.  I remember a physics professor once telling me this was a weird sort of "almost sort-of conservation law...while not being a conservation law", where if you can shunt the entropy to an area you want, you can actually decrease it in something else (his specific example had to do with supercooling Helium, I think...)

    (Sorry, physics guy.  XD)

    Anyway, to this end, the world of Terminus is a world where everyone is a stranger to the world - but a native to their little piece of it.  It'd be like if the Hand of God took North America and transported it somewhere, and with it and a bunch of other pieces from other planets built a new planet.  The North America part, with all it's history and with us along for the ride, would be the same, but the new planet wouldn't be planet Earth.  There would be no Asia, since Asia got left behind on Earth.

    Again...unless I'm VASTLY not understanding the world lore.  :)

    So, the point:

    Gnomes are interested in mysteries and curiosities and power, right?  This WAS the explanation given for Gnome Rogues, after all, was it not?

    As I said above, Clerics in Pantheon, at least the way THEIR lore reads, are not Priests like in WoW or something.  They are not members of an established church, per se.  Rather, the Gods/Celestials have more or less left Terminus since a lot of the overall powers of the overall divines in the universe were consumed in establishing Terminus and shunting the Entropy away from it.

    As such, Clerics in Pantheon are people that attune to relics and ancient rites/records of Celestial's wisdom/words and siphon holy residue power from them.  This relationship could be considered similar to a Summoner making a pact (attuning), a wizard studying ancient arcanum (rites/records), or a Necromancer/Dire Lord/Warlock stealing life essence/souls from people (siphon holy residue).

    They aren't "divine" or "pious" in the sense that a Priest would be in a normal MMO/fantasy setting.  In the way that Paladins, specifically, are in Pantheon.  Rather, they're more (again, to the way I'm reading the class - which I think is an original and novel and cool take on it) individuals who scour the world for remnants of lost power and scraps of ancient wisdom.

    ...how does that NOT sound like the very explanation given for Gnome Rogues?

    Unless something simply makes them incompatible with the holy magics - and I've seen nothing saying Gnomes are an evil race.  They cerntainly have the perception and intelligence to take on that path, don't you think?

    .

    "On top of which, given their history/lore, I imagine that in general they wouldn't be too keen on getting themselves into even more objects of foreign power/energy or anything having to do with purifying or otherwise altering their already fragile souls. "

    ...except if you take THIS logic, Gnome Rogues don't make sense (adventuring to aquire objects of foreign power/energy), nor do Gnome Necromancers OR Gnome Summoners (both involve making pacts that would endanger their fragile souls.)

    In fact, by this logic, the only thing that would make sense for them to be is...maybe Bards and maybe Warriors?  They're the only professions that don't involve in some way either potential danger to their ethereal essence (any magic using class, including nature classes) or objects of foreign power/energy.

    .

    Now to the first:

    "Gnome Rogue makes plenty of sense, and comparing rogue to warrior is comparing ballet dancers to freight trains. They just don't compare. Gnome's having an inclination or particular skill at being stealthy makes plenty of sense, especially in ther pursuit of knowledge. I'd wager more than one gnome has sought to steal some tomes/scrolls from another. They are small, stealthy, and smart. You don't need brute force to wield a dagger, you just need to know where to stick it/how to identify weak spots. With their almost entirely ethereal forms I'd say using a dagger for precision striking is much more in the realm of possibiliy compared to stomping around in full plate with a big 2-hander or sword and shield, which I imagine they wouldn't even be able to use given the fragility of their state. "

    The part of this I agree with:

    -Ballet dancers to freight trains.
    -Light dagger vs heavy sword and armor (though we don't know Wars are using 2 handers yet, do we?)*
    -Gnomes being stealthy.**

    The parts I disagree with:

    *Note the caveat: I recognize the difference, but I'm not submitting that Gnomes can't wield heavy weapons or armor - we don't know how strong they are.  I remember reading the inventory system in the game will include items having weight, so presumably Gnomes are as capable as any other race of carying weight.  Likewise, as I pointed out above, HALFLINGS are going to be able to be Warriors.  If HALFLINGS can lug that armor and swing that greatsword, it stands to reason Gnomes can as well.

    **Note the caveat: Read the Warrior description.  It explicitly states that the Warrior is not content to be a mindless brute swinging around big swords.  He trains his MIND (tactical genius) as well as his body.  The former of this, in particular, would seem well fitting to a Gnome, would it not?  The mind?

    As such, it stands to reason that Gnome Warriors make sense.

    We know that Gnomes will have a physical presence in the world - that is, they CAN be struck by corporeal weapons and they CAN carry items of weight in their inventory, as well as their daggers/staves/spell books.  They have a physical existence and are physically interacting with the world - they aren't simply moving things with telekenesis or the like.  As such, they have some physical strength, even if it's weak.

    So they have the PHYSICAL capacity to be Warriors, though not necessarily GOOD ones.  :)

    .

    Anyway, again, not trying to be antagonistic or pick fights.  I just love lore discussions and this is lore I'm excited about reading about/discussing.  :)

    XXXX

    • 2734 posts
    February 22, 2017 12:13 AM PST

    It is true, everyone on Terminus is from a different world. But let me start here:

     

    The Gnomes are... I say, the Gnomes are what they are. It feels strange to write they have dwelt on Terminus for over 250 years, when so little can be shared about them. The myths would pack my vault, the truth would fit in a jar. For 50 years their floating Skyhold remained shut like a Sanctum, heeding no hails from Khazas or even a night visit from Tel-Nharssis the Snow Dragon. But the persistence of the Archai eventually brokered a dialogue of sorts. Now their doors -- or bridges, rather -- are open, and I believe one day in the future Terminus will find herself in great need of their acumen. Though today they seem almost intentionally bizarre.

     

    So in their limited time on Terminus, they remain almost a complete mystery even now and this seems to imply that the gnomes are indifferent at best, if not somewhat uninterested in this new world as a whole. They didn't even care to come out to take a peek for 50 years. Further is this:

     

    When deposited on Terminus, the Skyhold floated undisturbed above Whitethaw for nearly 50 years. A deep, resonant hum slowly bore an inverted cone in the snow directly underneath the hulk, otherwise the ship roosted in the skies with silent unconcern. Now with modest access for wayfarers, it stands as the capital city of the Gnomes, striking in its inorganic majesty, begging more questions than the race cares to answer. Terminus has brought a return to the unified, workman traits of their ancient brothers and sisters, and the Gnomes may not have been so at peace in all their existence.

     

    Even now there is limited access to their city and they seem rather content to just stay there, as they finally seem to be at peace in their existence. Pair this with what VR said at the beginning of the thread "This is reflective of their culture. They are nearly singularly focused in their pursuit of the arcane and hidden secrets. In lieu of training in martial skills they’ve put effort in creating or summoning golems, homunculi, and other forms of false life to protect their grand works." Which goes to show they only seem interested in the arcane, going so far as for it to almost BE a religion with the interest they gave to their star. I'd say it goes to reason then that they either haven't had much or any interaction/exposure to the divine/celestial powers of clerics or paladins. Especially as all that wisdom seems to be kept within a specific Order (which is few in number(this being something you may have md when yoisseu said they aren't a part of a chruch or order))) as opposed to common knowledge across the land. On the cleric page it says they must bind themselves to the ancient directives of their Order and are then guided by the written wisdom of the Celestials of ages past. This strikes me as still being a wisdom/faith based class, they are placing their faith in old written words and binding themselves to a specific way of life as well, likely as written. 

     

    So the gnomes are almost singularly interested in the arcane and are noted as hard working and intelligent. Their intellect would likely only make them more resistant to any kind of religious dogma, especially given their past with the zealotry of the Archanos which only led to destruction. 

     

     

    As for gnome rogues, they make less sense to me but I can see it from the standpoint of being sneaky in the past and stealing knowledge from one another, especially back when it was the Eldership vs Archanos. But mostly I defer to their explaination above all: 

    I’ll add to his comment that Gnomen arcane skills can be applied to physical stealth and hiding their form or disguising it. When you consider that they don’t have a fleshly body to hide in the same way an Elf might, it becomes a more natural possibility that some Gnomes  -- particularly those who are adventurous and wily -- to see their unique anatomy and stature as an advantage. An asset.

    Here again we asked the question of what is a unique but authentic way to have this race interact with the world. A small-framed, ethereal-bodied, diligent, adventurous and mystical being seemed to us to fit with the Rogue if we stepped outside of the obvious lines of their caster nature. Can you imagine a Gnome assassin darkly flashing between the shadows of a room? I can, and it keeps me up at night."

     

    The carry weight thing is likely going to be more for gameplay than a true example of their strength as it would be awful if they could hardly carry anything beyond their own clothing/staff/daggers. Comparing them to Halfling doesn't quite work either as they are entirely different with different histories. Halflings in this game are cursed to be stunted in growth to be permanent teenagers in appearance, though in their history they were once of full stature having entire kingdoms and wars so their culture still reflects this and warriors being a thing carried on as they "have a youthful exuberance that never dims and a resolute spirit that makes them undefeatable." Just because they are small does not necessarily mean they lack strength, especially as they are not wisps like our friends the Gnome. 

     

    :)


    This post was edited by Iksar at February 22, 2017 12:16 AM PST
    • 191 posts
    February 22, 2017 5:16 PM PST

    Hm...I'll admit, you have some pretty interesting arguments there.  There are a few things I would point out, though:

    "Their intellect would likely only make them more resistant to any kind of religious dogma,"

    This is a very 21st Century Human from a Western nation view you have here.  Remember, the Celestials in most of these races have, within close if not living memory, directly interacted with the people.  If there were legit gods and angels TODAY walking the streets of you rcity performing miracles, the atheist argument of "you don't know there is a god egro it's backward, anti-science to believe in one" doesn't apply.  This is particularly true of a few races (Halflings and Dark Myr come to mind, for example).

    However, it does bring up an interesting point in that IF the Gnomes came from a place that was not visited often/recently by Celestial powers, then they COULD view religion in that way like an atheist on planet Earth would today.  However, it stands to reason also that if they've encountered ANY Clerics thus far in their stay on Terminus, having seen their powers first hand, they would probably analyze them to determine if it was trickery or not (street performing magician vs real life Gandalf), and then once determining that it was a real power, would be innately curious about it.

    "especially given their past with the zealotry of the Archanos which only led to destruction. "

    This, however, is probably the stronger cultural point.  Although it strikes me this is more an argument against Gnome Paladins, of which there are already plenty of arguments against.

    .

    " "This is reflective of their culture. They are nearly singularly focused in their pursuit of the arcane and hidden secrets. In lieu of training in martial skills they’ve put effort in creating or summoning golems, homunculi, and other forms of false life to protect their grand works." Which goes to show they only seem interested in the arcane, going so far as for it to almost BE a religion with the interest they gave to their star. I'd say it goes to reason then that they either haven't had much or any interaction/exposure to the divine/celestial powers of clerics or paladins."

    This is probably the greater argument against them having a longstanding Clerical tradition (heh, Clerical...)  If they haven't ventured much from their cityship, they wouldn't have encountered Clerics' powers first-hand, and so wouldn't have thought to seek out or study such power.

    It strikes me, though, that if they DID encounter it, they WOULD want to study it.  Gnomes are like the ultimate scholars.  They have an inquisitive nature and are innately curious (albeit likely now tempered somewhat due to their past experiences).  Their interest and deep study in the Arcane is reflective of this.  This is why it seems to me that they would be adept Clerics unless they have some kind of aversion to Holy magics directly, which nothing in their lore seems to indicate.  There are people who study religions, not because they believe them, but because they find them interesting.  A lot of religious historians, for example, are agnostic or atheist, or even hold other religions.  So if there WAS a race that could adapt the powers of Clerics through intellect rather than spirit, through knowledge and study rather than faith and meditation, it seems that the Gnomes would be that race.

    But I find your arguments fairly persuasive.

    I still think that Gnome Clerics does make a lot of sense, and it seems entirely plausible within this world (as there's nothing to prevent them from doing so and, once they start encountering Clerics, that they would seek to learn about and understand that power seems a given).  But I can accept your argument that, maybe, they just haven't left Skyhold and no Clerics have come visiting/evangelizing (since we don't know if Clerics in Pantheon even do that sort of thing or if they tend to hang out in monastaries meditating all day - player Clerics aside).

    But it seems like a race/class combination that would make sense to institute in the future, once Gnomes have started encountering such people/magics.

    .

    Ghone Rogues still doesn't make any damn sense to me, though.  :)

    A people who don't participate in martial skills, don't venture from their floating cityship*, and who are the most content they've been in living memory aren't exactly a ripe candidate for cutpurses and dungeon crawlers.

    *And if they did...they'd be Clerics by now.  :)

    XX

    • 1907 posts
    February 22, 2017 5:35 PM PST

    Not every society seeks out gods. Is it that impossible to think that most Gnomes don't care about religion, exposed to it or not?

    Pantheon class/race combos are not about creating the Drizzt for every race. They are not about creating the one special person in every race. They are about showing what those races tend to be.

    Maybe progeny or something else will give you what you want.

    • 2734 posts
    February 22, 2017 6:12 PM PST

    Renathras said:

    Hm...I'll admit, you have some pretty interesting arguments there.  There are a few things I would point out, though:

    "Their intellect would likely only make them more resistant to any kind of religious dogma,"

    This is a very 21st Century Human from a Western nation view you have here.  Remember, the Celestials in most of these races have, within close if not living memory, directly interacted with the people.  If there were legit gods and angels TODAY walking the streets of you rcity performing miracles, the atheist argument of "you don't know there is a god egro it's backward, anti-science to believe in one" doesn't apply.  This is particularly true of a few races (Halflings and Dark Myr come to mind, for example).

     

    This is where you are mistaken, according to the lore. Seen here:

    I have mentioned the Celestial Boundary and its effects. We have seen it grievously abused by the Ravaging Lord and mercifully circumvented by the sacrifice of Givani. There is the account of the Myr goddess Syronai saving her people despite the Boundary (though at tragic cost) and the persistent possibly that the WarWizard’s were created by the pantheons of each race (which would require such magnificent collusion amongst the gods I struggle to embrace it). Thus we find that whatever principality set this barrier in place between the immortal and mortal severely strengthened it once the War of Gods was over. For where there could be felt a whisper of their divine presence before, the races of Terminus find now it is oft merely a breeze. A vision is often just a dream, a premonition most times just paranoia. Is that to say there is no spiritual realm among us? Certainly not. But we are creatures of worship, who are being denied it like a child denied its parents.

    What will be the outcome of this age of frailty none can say with true, tested foresight. Will Terminus stay the splintered remains of other worlds as Semina described, or shall it heal and grow into one vast expanse as he surely must have hoped? I have read countless predictions (a deplorable enjoyment of mine), heard from a number of oracles (the most reliable of whom are insane) and even suffered a soothsayer or two (an abject, unhygienic lot). All stand in need of their “parents”.

     

    The War of Gods ended in 486 IH and it is currently 987 IH. So if the presence of Gods faded from even whispers to just a mere breeze after that, it would suggest Gods/the Celestials haven't had direct interaction or even close interaction for many generations of the various races. Then seems to suggest people go around as oracles claiming to hear the gods or speak for them, or soothsayers doing the same. The people are so disconnected that when they see an elder cleric perform a feat the people think they ARE a Celestial. It makes me think it's rare for even the common folk living amongst clerics to see any sort of spell/power/feat from them or that seeing a cleric at all is entirely rare. So it would seem as those clerics/paladins are possibly just as secluded as the Gnomes themselves, like monks in a monastery.  

     

    From what I can tell Humans, Dwarves, and Myr tap into the power/wisdom of their Gods to perform these feats which leads me to think it's not as cut and dry as the arcane spellcasting, that Gnomes seemingly not having a Celestial of their own wouldn't have that gift to tap into. Or it might just be that intellect cannot be exchanged for faith/wisdom/piety in casting these spells/performing the feats. 

    • 191 posts
    February 22, 2017 7:58 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Not every society seeks out gods. Is it that impossible to think that most Gnomes don't care about religion, exposed to it or not?

    Maybe progeny or something else will give you what you want.



    Again, I have plans to play neither a Cleric or a Gnome, so...I'm arguming more from a lore interest than a desire to play a specific class/race combination.  Make sense?  So you needn't come at me with that "You are complaining because you can't have what you want", since it doesn't apply to me, as I don't want it, personally.  :)  [I'll also note I THINK it's a logical fallacy to attack a person's motivation for something instead of their arguments...]

    As to your first sentence, about caring about religion:

    1) That's looking at the Cleric class in standard MMO archetype terms.  VR has said that their classes aren't standard MMO classes.  Thier Cleric is not WoW's Priest, to put it simply.  The Clerics of Terminus aren't necessarily religious in the "normal" sense.  It's not like religions on Earth.  You have to think about these classes in outside-the-box terms, not how you're used to seeing them.  You may see a Cleric and think "Oh, Catholic priest with magic powers", but that's not what the Pantheon Cleric is.

    2) Unlike planet Earth (* in terms of physical evidence/personal living memory), the races of Terminus and the planet itself has been directly influenced, built, and even visited in "physical" person by the gods.  Like, literally: The Dwarves' king IS A GOD (who gave up his immortality).  There are wraiths and shadow magic, there are WIZARDS.  The GNOMES have a LOT of them.

    So it isn't as much a stretch to "believe" in things outside of physical science in Terminus like it might be on Earth.  If on our planet Earth, people could summon creatures, raise undead minions, cast fireballs, dominate minds, and there were Clerics and Paladins that were healing people with bight bursts of light and magic - it wouldn't be so much a stretch to go "Oh, maybe gods DO exist" as it might be to you.

    .

    Iksar, though, again you make good arguments.

    It could be argued that the Gnomes, arriving a mere 250 years ago, were not around when the Celestials were.  Their history also does not seem to indicate any direct Celestial action or involvement.  They come from a natural Dyson's sphere and seem not to have a history or relationship with Celestials before arriving in Terminus.  So even now studying Terminus, it might be in the early stages of investigation and not having any real recorded knowledge on the subject yet. 

    I still contend it seems something they'd be very curious about as soon as they encountered it, and 200 years is a long time to go without encountering it.  And, again, Gnomes might be a bit skeptical, but it doesn't seem they'd be skeptics in the sense of, say, an Earth atheist, because the Gnomes are well aware of powers outside of the physical - considering they are, themselves, ethereal beaings AND they wield magic freely.  All of their classes (save Rogue) are caster classes, and Rogues in Pantheon also (I think?) are going to have some uses for mana.  So the idea of not believing in a spiritual world or souls seems odd for a people who are, themselves, whisps.  The Gnomes themselves are their former souls having shed their bodies.  To such a people, the potential to believe in spiritual powers seems...less a stretch than most.

    If anything, they would be a strong candidate for a race that believes "Any significantly advanced technology/science appears as magic", with a twist: "Any significantly advanced existence appears as spirit".  They don't have to speculate about the existence of a soul: They ARE souls.

    • 46 posts
    February 22, 2017 11:50 PM PST
    Why can't it be like EQ2 that there is no race/class restrictions? I think it will just be easier that way and more logical. Really think about it, what is keeping anyone from any race to not train and become that class? This way people can play whatever race they want with their favorite class without having to sacrifice one for the other. And no elf pally and cleric.... really?!
    • 191 posts
    February 23, 2017 8:42 PM PST

    I don't think class/race limitations are bad, just that there should be some fundamental rules in place: Namely, that every race has at least one class capable of essential party roles, and that classes that seem to be basic to existence exist in all races.  Though this second point can lead to some weird situations.

    For example, Warrior is the most basic of basic classes.  Since all we have to go off of in reality is Earth cultures at present, it is noteworthy to point out that all Human cultures either have presently or have had in their history a Warrior class of people.  This includes peaceful cultures, though "Warrior" might better be rendered "Hunter" in said cultures.  The premise is still those who practice martial skills and protect or provide for the village against dangerous threats, be they other Humans or be they anima threat.

    Likewise, religion/spirituality in some form seems to have existed in all Human societies, but taking sometimes vastly different forms from the obvious religious belief in pantheons of gods like the Greeks or Norse to the almost philosophical religions like Confuscism.  From the priesthoods of Catholic Europe to the spiritualist Inuit Shaman or the so-called "Which Doctors" or the ancient Druidic orders.

    ...but then you run into weird situations (that debatly aren't realistic in our physical universe) like the Gnomes.  And no, I don't mean them being energy mumies like the Ethereals of World of Warcraft.  I mean the fact that it seems from their history they evolved (if evolved is even the right word) alone on a rocky planet.  In their history, you'll notice no mention of animals or even plant life on their home world, only that it was metalic as they slowly dug their way to its core and found it was a huge Dyson's sphere (a massive hollow sphere surrounding a star, theoretically capable of harnassing the energy of a star for its entire lifetime and the product of highly advanced stellar/interstellar societies), by all intents naturally formed.  How did the Gnomes get there?  Did they evolve, and if so, from what?  If there's no other life on the planet than Gnomes, and they were of a unified mind with one another, they'd have no need for Warriors ever - no dangerous animals or antagonistic Gnomes to threaten them.  Likewise, we don't really know anything of their lives and deaths (or if they were immortal), which would lead us to question if they would have any form of spirituality or religion - after all, one of the original reasons for religion on planet Earth among Humans was likely to try to find sense in existance and come up with some kind of semi-satisfying answer to the question "What happens when we die?"

    If the Gnomes had no animal or planet life, how did they survive?  Where did they come from?  Evolution or a silent Celestial that made them but never interacted with them further?  Were they immortal in lifespan?  What did they consume to survive?  Did they even breethe?

    These questions lead to the Gnome class discussion being a very interesting one for me, because the Gnomes in Pantheon are a HECK of a "what-if" for fantasy/sci-fi (and I use sci-fi here because they are a race of weird techno-magic who DID arive on what ammounts to a prison space ship).

    Further, how did they know/decide that to survive they'd need to become energy beings?  This is clearly something they knew had to happen from their history page, but it's unclear why: They had escaped the doom of their star by leaving through a hole it punched in the Dyson's sphere world, so they were no longer at risk of being physically destroyed by it.  Did they know they were going to be teleported to Terminus and, that unlike all the other races, they needed to be non-corporeal to survive?  Or did they install their own kind of Hyperdrive and use it to travel to Terminus ON THEIR OWN (which leads to a lot of other fascinating questions - Why Terminus?  How did they know it existed?  How did they know the coordinates?  Could they leave if they wanted?), but that the technology would destroy a physical body (think Hyperdynamic G-forces or something) so that only being energy wrapped in binding strips would they survive the trip?

    .

    Honestly, this iteration of the Gnomish race is one of the more fascinating I've encountered.  I might even have to make a Gnome alt at some point (I typically play healers/buffers, so my main will probably be a Halfling Druid or Bard anyway...or maybe Dwarf.  I've liked Dwarves since I read Tolkien and all my friends went on and on about how awesome Elves were.  I'm a rebel.  ;)  I like the "less popular" types of people/races.  Also refugess/on the bring of extinction types trying to carve out an existence.)

    .

    So that's part of what makes it interesting to discuss.

    Class/race combinations tend to lend a lot to a race's collective identity in the lore - Ogres being more primal people, Humans being more civilized, etc.  So it's not an inherently bad thing provided it's not too restrictive for no reason and the reasons are well backed by lore.

    But you also have the issue of what a class IS.  While it's generally recognized in games with restictions that any INDIVIDUAL can be anything - that is, an Ogre COULD be a Paladin - these individuals are so rare that they aren't an option granted to the playerbase.

    But then you also have the cultural argument where a CULTURE is LESS LIKELY to do something, but that groups of that culture still do it.  For example, in EQ1, Gnome Warriors were rare because they had poor stat allocation to make good Warriors, but they weren't nonexistent.

    And you also get into the argument of half-race or racial subcultures: Like EQ1's Barbarians basically being a splinter culture of Humans rather than a truly different race, or if a half-Elven/half-Human character would be more on the side of an Elf or a Human in terms of playable race.

    .

    So there are a lot of good an interesting reasons for class/race restrictions, but they shouldn't be arbitrary and should generally meet some basic minimum (e.g. there should be at least two options for each class and probably 3-4 for each race, and that races should have access to the basic tools of all party roles if possible, while not having any classes that harshly conflict with their nominal culture, etc.)

    • 61 posts
    February 27, 2017 11:45 AM PST

    All you human lover can kiss my arse with this tainting of the sacred shaman class  it was the one thing u nerds couldnt have and they bend over and give it to u

    • 1907 posts
    February 27, 2017 12:53 PM PST

    Lodgedogg said:

    All you human lover can kiss my arse with this tainting of the sacred shaman class  it was the one thing u nerds couldnt have and they bend over and give it to u

    In EQ and EQ2, Barbarians could be Shamans. They are basically the same race as Humans. 

    • Moderator
    • 8788 posts
    February 27, 2017 4:22 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Lodgedogg said:

    All you human lover can kiss my arse with this tainting of the sacred shaman class  it was the one thing u nerds couldnt have and they bend over and give it to u

    In EQ and EQ2, Barbarians could be Shamans. They are basically the same race as Humans. 

    There are much better and more respectable ways to word your posts than that Lodgedogg.

    Also, this game isn't a carbon copy of EQ, so expect changes. VG had Human shamans as did many other games, they fit well within our Lore and will be a part of Pantheon so it is better to embrace it now than resist something that will be going into the game. :)

    • 2734 posts
    February 27, 2017 4:54 PM PST

    Renathras said:

    And you also get into the argument of half-race or racial subcultures: Like EQ1's Barbarians basically being a splinter culture of Humans rather than a truly different race, or if a half-Elven/half-Human character would be more on the side of an Elf or a Human in terms of playable race.

     

    Minor lore note: Humans were the splinter from the Barbarians.  ;)

    • 642 posts
    February 27, 2017 6:44 PM PST

    Kilsin please share this grave discrepancy.

     

    I apologize for my peristence but simply MUST passionately argue for "my" people:

     

    Behold exceperts from the very lore of Lyone and the Halflings

    • A refreshing blend of madness and mirth

    • youthful exuberance that never dims

    • a resolute spirit that makes them undefeatable.

    • effortless stealth of a wolf

    • the devious charm of a child

    • the Ward of Flame revealed himself to me

    • them in silence for a time.

    • granted him a First Magic: to wield fire.

    • Deceiving him with a disguise herself

    • Molsth, who thought her a harmless, misguided child.

    • a great student of riddle and the tricks of the Laughing Wraith.

    • you shall fall forever silent.

     

    Halfling have the gift to wield fire.  This sounds like either be summoners or wizards.  

    Their history is silencing their enemy and using disguises while, they are living in an illusion.  

    Clearly they are INT casters and the most logical is Enchanter.

    Their lore clearly defines this caster class.

     


    This post was edited by fazool at February 27, 2017 6:46 PM PST
    • 2734 posts
    February 27, 2017 7:10 PM PST

    fazool said:

    Halfling have the gift to wield fire.  This sounds like either be summoners or wizards.  

    Their history is silencing their enemy and using disguises while, they are living in an illusion.  

    Clearly they are INT casters and the most logical is Enchanter.

    Their lore clearly defines this caster class.

     

    The gift of fire lends itself more toward druid, which they can be. 

     

    Not sure where you are getting the history of silencing anything.

     

    Being in disguise doesn't necessarily mean an illusion, rogues can disguise themselves as well.

    • 642 posts
    February 27, 2017 7:22 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    Not sure where you are getting the history of silencing anything.

     

    Being in disguise doesn't necessarily mean an illusion, rogues can disguise themselves as well.

     

    The items shown are direct quotes frmo their lore.  Lyone specifically silenced Molsth.

    They are more than in disguise.  Lyone disguised herself during her battle with Molsth but their entire existence is an illusion - they are fully grown adutls in a child's body - not a disguise an illusion.

    Of all the class-race combinations that the lore supports, halfling-enchanter is the strongest and it has the added benefit of being NEW to the mmorpg genre with that unique combination.

    (have you even read the lore?)

     

     

    • 2734 posts
    February 27, 2017 7:38 PM PST

    fazool said:

    The items shown are direct quotes frmo their lore.  Lyone specifically silenced Molsth.

    They are more than in disguise.  Lyone disguised herself during her battle with Molsth but their entire existence is an illusion - they are fully grown adutls in a child's body - not a disguise an illusion.

    Of all the class-race combinations that the lore supports, halfling-enchanter is the strongest and it has the added benefit of being NEW to the mmorpg genre with that unique combination.

    (have you even read the lore?)

     

    I don't read that as her having silenced him at all, if she had that power she would have used it instead of trying to trick him. Seems to me more like when he made the deal with her, whatever pact that sealed was of his own power, and it silenced him in the end. See here: "Trapped in his greed, the wraith surrendered his laughter and the suffocating curse upon the Kiri was broken. Molsth's laugh, for decades the haunt of every nightmare in the kingdom, was transformed to the emblem of his victim’s joy -- and the Laughing Wraith became the Silent Wraith forevermore."

    He surrendered it. He wasn't silenced by HER power.

     

    Their existence is not an illusion or disguise at all, they are cursed to forever have the physical bodies of adolescents. 

     

    So yes, I have read the lore.