Your Main does not necessarily precede your Alts initially. My original plan, before I decided to Pledge Beta or Alpha, was to scout the game ahead at Launch with a couple characters to suss out the terrain, learn the game, and make a few friends before commiting to a Main
I really do see the desire to experience lots of classes and races. From memory, I think we had 6 or maybe 8 character slots in EverQuest back in 2004, and it seemed enough to me.
I did dabble in other servers, starting on Prexus before Xev became my Main Server, tried the Role Play server, and once created a Dwarf Cleric on an older server in search of an item that had dropped years ago.
I guess I don't feel the need to have all my characters all on one server as much as others do.
All I am saying is that more character slots has the potential to reduce dependence on other players, not that it necessarily will. If more slots helps maximize fun for a bunch of players and doesn't harm the game otherwise, I am golden.
Balanz said:Your Main does not necessarily precede your Alts initially. My original plan, before I decided to Pledge Beta or Alpha, was to scout the game ahead at Launch with a couple characters to suss out the terrain, learn the game, and make a few friends before commiting to a Main
Absolutely true. I get this. But I suspect folks will still spend more time on one toon for the majority of their playtime until end-game winds down and/or before an expansion. Although I have known gamers that have 2,3 or more toons with roughly equal time played.
I myself will play an alt just to throw in some variety every once in a while or explore another part of the world.
A game that focuses a lot more on the journey than on actually being maximum level encourages not even having a "main" in the sense of focusing more time on one character than on the others. Too early to see how Pantheon things but if leveling is as slow as I hope I anticipate having characters at multiple levels to be able to join groups at any of them as desired. Particularly if I am active in a guild that groups together a lot. With the highest level not necessarily getting more time than any of the others - more likely less time.
I don't always have a main and sometimes jump between characters. I often don't even know which one will end up as my main for quite a while. It's not just the race/class combo, it's also the character name, look, concept, and feel that makes it 'sticky' enough to become my main. I frequently come up with ideas for new characters and I enjoy building them and seeing how they turn out. MMOs are a creative outlet for me and I need enough character slots to not lose that aspect of the game.
I think the number of players who want lots of alts so they can become self-sufficient and get stuff cheap is small. I also don't think it's actually saving them any money. The amount of time it would take to max out all crafters would be better spent farming at max level.
dorotea said:A game that focuses a lot more on the journey than on actually being maximum level encourages not even having a "main" in the sense of focusing more time on one character than on the others.
I hope I wasn't coming across that most people will be trying to get to maximum level as a primary goal. If I did then forgive me. I think where I'm coming from (and what I take in from the Devs) is that whatever activity you decide to pursue; be it exploration, grinding experience, crafting, skill advancement (climbing, environments, etc.). It's going to take a lot of time to advance any of those to a maximum level. I suspect we only see the tip of the iceberg in regards to game development too. So much we don't know yet. Perhaps some people will defer some things until they have reached certain activity milestones then come back. For example, some people may wish to reach max level and begin raiding world firsts. Then come back to master climbing, or tradeskills, or whatever have you. Other people might want a healthy mix of most of those things as they adventure along. Perhaps spending more time crafting for a week or two before moving on to leveling for some time. There's all kinds of permutations.
I'm also not trying to direct how people ought to play or spend their time in regard to alts. Again forgive me if I seem to be. I'm just thinking that since the game seems to be designed to be gradual, expanssive, and lengthy in breadth that playing several alts will really make the journey appear endless and milestones far more stretched out. This may have the unwanted effect of feeling like their not getting anywhere (not necessarily fast enough) just a sense of not accomplishing things. I suspect folks want to have a sense of some accomplishment everytime they play. Bringing in a number of alts into this mix might not be palatable for most people. Totally okay though if that's how one wants to play.
Also, the journey still exists for playing one character. I don't believe that fundamentally means they are trying to get to maximum level as soon as possible. I imaging that just exploring and working on the lore as a keeper is going to take quite a bit of time. Foregoing a particular focus on other activities. Same idea goes for crafting, etc. etc.
OakKnower said:I'm just thinking that since the game seems to be designed to be gradual, expanssive, and lengthy in breadth that playing several alts will really make the journey appear endless and milestones far more stretched out. This may have the unwanted effect of feeling like their not getting anywhere (not necessarily fast enough) just a sense of not accomplishing things. I suspect folks want to have a sense of some accomplishment everytime they play. Bringing in a number of alts into this mix might not be palatable for most people. Totally okay though if that's how one wants to play.
I'm guessing that this is perhaps how playing a bunch of alts might seem to most people who do focus on getting to max level. And that's a totally OK way to play any game. I just want to point out, as a committed altaholic, that this is not my perspective and IMO isn't the perspective of most altaholics. I actually want the journey to take years. My biggest concern is running out of new places to see, classes to master, perception pings to find, items to craft, etc. I have no need to define any specific 'accomplishment' each time I log in. Eventually I'll have a highest level character that I'll call my main, but I'm more like Dorotea in that respect as well. I'll be playing multiple characters at various levels.
My sense of the Pantheon community is that more of them have the approach I describe than you usually find in most modern MMOs. (Not that there won't be plenty of people who aim for the level cap and charge ahead at full speed). More players who want to try everything, explore everywhere as they level, on multiple characters, with no concern for 'getting anywhere' as long as they're having fun. If you like to level, have at it! Just take some time off and come have fun with us slowpokes now and then. We'll all enjoy Pantheon more, that way :)
As I've mentioned, I do believe there are varying degrees of playstyle and focus. I have no judgement of any of them.
I can see some people starting right out creating several alts and playing each an equitable amount of time until they stop playing the game altogether. I can also see the same initiatory activity change over time as some players beging to favor (for one reason or another) one character or more over others, playing those more over time. I also see people choosing to play one character from release until end-game, then choosing to play an alt. I can also see the idea of someone with the consideration of having 4 main characters, one for each archtype, and no others. Permutations.
Accomplishment can be defined individually by each player. For example, moving an alt from one town to another and parking them. Or gathering a number of crafting materials. Selling some items at auction. Even just logging in to chat with people while not directing your character in anything can be an accomplishment (guild meeting anyone?). But I do remember a discussion recently about how many people will have limited time to play and they would appreciate a sense of getting something done. Accomplishing something. And the Devs have communicated they understand this concern.
I feel most people would agree that this is a game of acquisition (it's expected that your character will get stuff) and change (also anticipated that one's character will be able to do something or go somewhere they once were unable to). Kind of the whole point. One does not transform their character, or alts, by logging in and just sitting there for several months. Although that is indeed a possiblity, I'll wager the majority of people want to go out, explore, advance, change, find, experience, accomplish. Having a specific goal, or rate, to accomplishment isn't my concern here. For I think being more laize fair is cool too.
I myself have no desire to level too fast. Certainly I do not want to be faster than everyone, or even most. Not sure what my comfy leveling rate will be. But....since this game is also interdependent, I expect I'll keep at least one character at a pace where I can find groups and experience content I will not be able to do alone. And I think this in a very important consideration for all. If I spend too much time on my own alts, will I miss that wave where most of the server population moves too far?
I started playing EQI several months after release and was never able to 'catch up' to the majority of the server pop. Eventually I hit a wall working on the prayer shawl questline for my Shaman :( And I never raided in EQ. A couple things I myself missed.
I also had a full roster of alts and would not change that experience. I love alts too. But as much as I do not want to run out of things to do, I also do not want to miss out on things that have a measure of accomplishment and the most comprehensive experience possible.
To back up the altoholics out there, one thing I would point out, is that having few character slots only really effects altoholics. It's a largely academic argument for others.
Having multiple slots doesn't stop players having just a main character. Having one character slot does ruin things for the altoholics.
Yes, having one slot would make players more interdependent, but then, forced grouping as soon as you log in would 'encourage' group play greatly. It would also be a bad idea ;^)
In most situations, having one main character is advantageous. You tend to acquire stuff much faster at higher levels. You tend to acquire better stuff at higher levels.
That those with alts might have access to several crafters is true, but they will be much lower level in adventuring and crafting, on average, until much later in the game. It will take them a *long* time to develop several high level crafters.
Those leveling one main and joining a guild will have much quicker access to multiple crafters, and it will be arguably more convenient, too, as when they want something, they just ask and wait rather than swapping characters and doing it themselves, if they can and have the materials.
Would using guild crafters be more 'social'? Yes, but "can someone make me a dragon vambrace, I have the mats", "yes deposit them in the guild bank, I'll do it this afternoon" is hardly the core of social bonding in an MMORPG.
A player with alts has the same time as main players, but more opportunities for grouping. I would suggest that the social opportunities are greater when you can choose from several level ranges and locations to play depending upon where there are friends and aquaintances or even just more random folks. I met far more people with my alts than I did on my guilded raiding main.
I would say that more than makes up for any loss of inter-crafter socialising.
I guess overall I'm saying players don't have alts for any kind of advantage or any kind of anti-social tendencies. Quite the opposite.
Players have alts because they want to broaden their experience and fun even at the cost of advantage and progress. Sometimes with the intention of sacrificing advantage and progress - to slow down the rate they consume the game. Having alts is an unparalleled horizontal progression that would be a great shame to be without or even restrict much.
OakKnower said:I started playing EQI several months after release and was never able to 'catch up' to the majority of the server pop. Eventually I hit a wall working on the prayer shawl questline for my Shaman :( And I never raided in EQ. A couple things I myself missed.
I also had a full roster of alts and would not change that experience. I love alts too. But as much as I do not want to run out of things to do, I also do not want to miss out on things that have a measure of accomplishment and the most comprehensive experience possible.
I'm surprised by your experience. I think I had several alts and didn't worry about getting guilded or progressing to 'high level' for many months, maybe even a year, and when I did, there were lots of people playing at all the level ranges and a choice of guilds to start raiding with.
Server population perhaps varied in those days, but it shouldn't be such an issue these days with the relative ease with which they can be joined, split and moved around.
Counterfleche said:I don't always have a main and sometimes jump between characters. I often don't even know which one will end up as my main for quite a while. It's not just the race/class combo, it's also the character name, look, concept, and feel that makes it 'sticky' enough to become my main. I frequently come up with ideas for new characters and I enjoy building them and seeing how they turn out. MMOs are a creative outlet for me and I need enough character slots to not lose that aspect of the game.
I think the number of players who want lots of alts so they can become self-sufficient and get stuff cheap is small. I also don't think it's actually saving them any money. The amount of time it would take to max out all crafters would be better spent farming at max level.
Balanz said:Your Main does not necessarily precede your Alts initially. My original plan, before I decided to Pledge Beta or Alpha, was to scout the game ahead at Launch with a couple characters to suss out the terrain, learn the game, and make a few friends before commiting to a Main
I really do see the desire to experience lots of classes and races.
...
All I am saying is that more character slots has the potential to reduce dependence on other players, not that it necessarily will. If more slots helps maximize fun for a bunch of players and doesn't harm the game otherwise, I am golden.
I am very much with these ideas.
I know a lot of folks are certain what race-class they 'prefer' and they play that and nothing else. I understand that, but I don't 'get it' hehe.
I don't know why players would willfully not try all the options available before picking the one they found most interesting and fun, but *shrug* that's up to them I suppose.
I've certainly played games where some classes and races do not really appeal to me, but I try them anyway, even if I quite quickly discount them. Sometimes I find they were not what they seemed or I was simply wrong in my assumption of what they would be like.
Especially in a game like Pantheon, which is 'reinventing' the trope races and classes to a good degree, I would really encourage players who might oridinarily think they 'know' what they like, to give others a try and, if you really are a 'main' type of person, progress one of those 'tries' as a main.
The way most MMORPGs work - and in this regard I don't think Pantheon will be too different, because it works - is it doesn't take too long to get a good feel for a race or class.
So why not try a few? Even if you come back and main the race-class combo you always favour, maybe you'll also now have a few combos you also enjoy for a change?
Non Altoholics: Come over to the dark side! We have various types of cookies!
disposalist said:OakKnower said:I started playing EQI several months after release and was never able to 'catch up' to the majority of the server pop. Eventually I hit a wall working on the prayer shawl questline for my Shaman :( And I never raided in EQ. A couple things I myself missed.
I also had a full roster of alts and would not change that experience. I love alts too. But as much as I do not want to run out of things to do, I also do not want to miss out on things that have a measure of accomplishment and the most comprehensive experience possible.
I'm surprised by your experience. I think I had several alts and didn't worry about getting guilded or progressing to 'high level' for many months, maybe even a year, and when I did, there were lots of people playing at all the level ranges and a choice of guilds to start raiding with.
Server population perhaps varied in those days, but it shouldn't be such an issue these days with the relative ease with which they can be joined, split and moved around.
Admittedly, a combination of things. I was in a very, very casual guild that did not have many people nor a goal to raid. Also did not advertise myself as a player looking to raid - not that I didn't want to. A bit of fear and shyness to top it all off.
I did raid in WoW however, so that was ultimately achieved.
Still, I would have been more jazzed to get the prayer shall or the epic weapon quests completed. That would have been satisfying.
Anyway, I moved on to too many games and too many alts to count.
DagnyStout said: Thought that just occurred to me as I was describing this thread to my spouse. A compromise might be to allow a character skit to re-roll with some small benefit passed on the the new character, like they pass along all their cash and items. Doing so would then promote people trying new classes and races without fear of having to “start over” while allowing for a reasonable 3 slot limit and prevent someone have an alt for each trade skill or other means of side stepping class interdependence and community.
There's supposed to be some kind of "Progeny System" that may allow a player to retire a character in exchange for some benefits for the new character.
It is largely an unknown, but engenders hot feelings.
Spluffen said:I don't get why you'd limit character slots at all. I mean i understand it needs a technical limit, but it can just be 256 or whatever.
I assume its only so you can sell them to people?
Well one reason games tend to have character limits is to prevent players from creating dozens of place holder characters simply to hold onto potential names.
Another reason is to prevent players from simply using characters as infinite bank mules. If they want inventory limits to matter they can't let you have 256 character slots where you can store your Hoard of forgotten loot.
Some games also tend to limit characters slots in order to prevent players from being able to master all the crafting professions themselves without needing to rely on other players. I don't believe that Pantheon is planning to limit us for this particular reason, but maybe they will.
Also... some times games have costs to 'respec' your characters. In Pantheon's case this would likely be tied to resetting your Mastery Points. They may want to limit character slots to prevent players from having multiple characters of the same class just with different Mastery builds, then just swapping their gear (which most will be tradable) over to whichever character who has the build they want to play that day. This may still be doable between 2 characters, but you wouldn't have a dozen characters of each class in order to have dozens of Mastery builds for each.
One other possiblity could be to nudge players into leveling up past a certain point. Some players can be flighty when it comes to picking a character to level up. They can find themselves in a pattern of creating a character, leveling it to 15 and then starting over with a new character, only to get this new character to level 15 and starting the pattern again with another new character. If there is no reasonable limit to characters, these players may find themselves infinitely in this loop and never getting a character leveled up. Yes a player could 'delete' characters to make room for another new one, but most players will tend to not want to waste the efforts they made in leveling up those characters. Even if they still swap between all their various characters, they will eventually over time level them up and get to experience higher level content even if they can never decide on which character they really enjoy the most and they never focus on any specific one.
Anyway... just a few reasons for Character limits that don't have anything to do with "so you can sell them to people".
Hmm. I don't find those reasons super convincing.
I suspect that character slots were limited back in the day due to a technical limitation or quirk of the game engine, or maybe just because x number of slots just fit the UI on the screen they made for any given game. I'm not saying they were limited back in the day so that you could sell them to people since that kind of MTX wasn't around yet.
Now we're used to limited character slots and we just rationalise why they need to be limited or what number is a good number.
There are several good reasons to limit the number of characters an account may have on a single server.
First, while we don't know how bank space will work, it seems likely that each character will have at least some significant bank space for themselves. Unlimited characters then means unlimited bank space, and even if transferring inventory between characters using the bank is not easy, it can and will be done, even if it involves a third person.
Second, unlimited character slots means that one player could, in theory, have characters who have mastered every single gatherer and trade skill specialization. While that could take time, dedicated tradeskillers are known to be clinically insane, and they will accomplish this. Once a Guild has recruited a single super crafter, potential new recruits will not be able to offer a tradeskill the Guild does not already have.
Third, the more characters one has on a single server, the easier it could be to minimize the consequences of negative reputation. Even if character names are tied to player names, the more characters, the easier to obscure ones identity, especially if the character doing the dirty deed only is online very briefly.
Finally, the more combinations of class, race, and profession one player can bring to the table, the less needed any new character is for their "special abilities." In contrast, if players were limited to one character per server, every new player could be a valuable asset to their group, guild or friends.
I understand altaholics, and I do not want to ruin their fun for no good reason. But let's not pretend that more than dozen character slots per player per server is without negative consequences.
As for me, I don't play "Alts," I play stories. My Main is my main because I have the clearest vision of the story I want to tell with that character. The few other characters I want to play have their own stories to tell as well. I don't feel the need to have more than a few on any given server. But then, I am weird.
It would be interesting to analyse two different servers, 1 with limitless characterslots and another with limited character slots. I believe the economy would differ drastically. And with that the culture and expectations of the players on those servers. Possibly even influencing the further development and focus points of the game itself.
Perhaps this is best tried and analysed on an already excisting game... Plenty of games to look at.
Spluffen said:Hmm. I don't find those reasons super convincing.
I suspect that character slots were limited back in the day due to a technical limitation or quirk of the game engine, or maybe just because x number of slots just fit the UI on the screen they made for any given game. I'm not saying they were limited back in the day so that you could sell them to people since that kind of MTX wasn't around yet.
Now we're used to limited character slots and we just rationalise why they need to be limited or what number is a good number.
I found all of the reasons giving to be quite convincing. They are based on actual player actions taken over the years, and some of those reasons are directly addressed by VR in how they want Pantheon to function. To be dismissive of those well documented player actions is not reason enough to allow 200+ or unlimited character slots. I think limitations help to bring some structure to MMOS. The more you give players, the more they will try to 'game' the system to their advantage and the more VR will have to spend resources on 'managing' player behavior. It is an unfortunate reality of today's gaming.
There has to be a balance between giving players lots of options in many areas and a decent amount of limitations in others.
I will be trying out alts, so maybe 10-20 slots will be fine. Maybe more, but we'll see how things play out some time after release. It can always be increased, but giving out too many and reducing later will casue a lot more problems and negative comments.