Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Epic quest lines

    • 2130 posts
    February 26, 2016 3:22 PM PST

    There won't be twenty thousand players on a single server. This is just one of many unreasonable expectations you have for Pantheon.

    That said, there is absolute zero justification provided for epic quests with limited availability. Don't make assumptions about how I intend to play the game or what I will and won't be preoccupied with. There is absolutely no reason why something like an epic quest should have limited availability. None. Zero. Zeeeeroooooooo.

    • 157 posts
    February 26, 2016 3:30 PM PST

    Amsai said:

     

    I hope you guys give it a chance. FFXI had a similar system and it was not only fun but broke up the sameness of just leveling. It wasnt like your typical and much hated quest hubs. It was more like rites of passage to let you earn te right to level. The intent being that you should possess a certain level of class knowlegde before you could continue the journey. Maybe something along the lines of being tested as a mage in DragonLance at the Tower of High Sorcery.

     I actually thought this was cancelled. And in the "Approach to Grind" Thread on the MMORPG Pantheon Forums I asked specifically about it based on a comment Brad made. An he confirmed that it wasnt cancelled but was just on hold til it can be seen how it and other systems would or would not work, and then heavily tested. 

    Here is a link to the thread (lot of reading and reposting from this forum): http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/446243/visionary-realms-approach-to-the-grind/p1

    You can see where I asked the question and Brad asnwered starting at about 15 posts down the first page.

    Also while I will agree that it is somewhat a Themeparkish thing. I dont consider EQ a Sandbox though either, and most people wouldnt either. Its a much older Themepark MMO back when they had much more of a mix of sandboc and themepark things. Its what some people would call a Themebox or a Sandpark. So I definitely see room for it. But guys lets try it out in testing before not giving it a chance.

    Thanks for the link.  I like the idea, too.

    • 383 posts
    February 26, 2016 6:53 PM PST

    Liav said:

    There won't be twenty thousand players on a single server. This is just one of many unreasonable expectations you have for Pantheon.

    That said, there is absolute zero justification provided for epic quests with limited availability. Don't make assumptions about how I intend to play the game or what I will and won't be preoccupied with. There is absolutely no reason why something like an epic quest should have limited availability. None. Zero. Zeeeeroooooooo.

     

    You can't state for certainty that there won't be 20k players per server. I would guess it would be highly unlikely, though no one can say for certain without inside information, or actual real game development experience with the game engine and the customizations the team is using.

    Also your second statement is wrong as well. One reason would be to create lore which I already mentioned. It has been done in other games without breaking them and it could be done here if the devs so choose to do it.

    This is very similar to a GM led event that when over an item was given to only a chosen few. You don't see everyone complaining about that. It was an epic battle and only a few were rewarded with items other than the experience of being there and seeing it first hand.

    The mentality that someone will be upset due to the fact that someone can have something that another person can't have is a bit immature in my opinion. It's fueled by jealousy for what another has. I personally would be happy to see another succeed and only hope that I could be as lucky as they were to find the quest and figure it out.

    Another idea I thought about would be diminishing returns on the items for quests completed. I think it would be hated by most, though it would be a unique feature. Whoever the first couple of people were to finish the quest might get a fully powered item and someone that was the 10000th person to finish it due to just watching a youtube video or reading a walk through would get a lower quality version of it due to trivialization of said quest.


    This post was edited by Niien at February 27, 2016 2:35 PM PST
    • 157 posts
    February 27, 2016 9:36 AM PST

    Another think I thought about would be diminishing returns on the items for quests completed.

     

    What do you call a blind dinosaur?

    A do-you-think-he-saur-us!

     

    I couldn't help it!

    • 2130 posts
    February 27, 2016 9:46 AM PST

    We're not even talking about the same thing so I'm just going to let this conversation die, as it should.

    • 383 posts
    February 27, 2016 2:35 PM PST

    xtnpd said:

    Another think I thought about would be diminishing returns on the items for quests completed.

     

    What do you call a blind dinosaur?

    A do-you-think-he-saur-us!

     

    I couldn't help it!

     

    Lol whoops :) 

    • 52 posts
    May 24, 2016 8:07 PM PDT

    FIrst off 20k players on 1 server is beyond overload. But noone knows what the game population will be altho I think we can all agree we want a strong group of mature, friendly, and helpful people.

    Would I like to see class epics in game? I will answer that with a very large Stone Cold ''Hell yeahhh.'' I totally want each class to have an epic weapon and it should be just as difficult to obtain as in EQ. Obtaining an epic weapon should be tedious and frustrating. It should be partially soloable as well as require friends and even a raid force at times. ''Epic'' in my eyes is something a person strives his entire existence to obtain and the reward from it should match the difficulty in obtaining it. With that being said there will be people who never obtain their epic. Not everyone has the motivation and willpower to overcome all the obstacles standing in the way of wielding such a powerful item. I cant tell you the amount of people on EQ who wouldnt even try and get their epic because it actually required dedication and overcoming adversity. I had a RL friend who had this exact mindset. It took me years of convincing him he could do it if he just put his mind to it. He would always tell me there is no way he will get his epic and that he needs a raid for this and a raid for that. I would tell him that he can put his own raids together when he gets to that portion of the quest and he would just laugh and say things like ''yeah right.'' Finally after 3 or 4 years of convincing I got him to buy in. I told him to start with all the parts that he can do solo and then the parts that he can do with a couple buds. Once he started getting stuff done I could see his confidence building and that he was starting to believe. Pretty soon he had completed every part of the quest that did not require a raid force. By the time he had gotten to this point he became obsessed with completing the remaining parts. At work all he talked about was how close he was to getting his epic. It kinda started getting annoying because it went on every single day for weeks. So finally he had done all the research on how to beat the final parts and spent a LOT of time farming plat so he could offer it to people to help. I will never forget the day I logged on and before I had even fully loaded into the game he had already spammed my chat with links to his Orb of Mastery. He was standing at the front of the EC tunnel wielding it and had a small crowd of people standing around him congratulating him while he linked it repeatedly. He went from thinking he would never be able to complete his epic and it was impossible to not only finishing it but leading his own raids in doing so. The word got out how well he had led those raids (particularly PoSKY) that he was offered a spot in one of the top guilds on the server. He eventually became that guilds primary raid leader for the next 4 years. This even affected him in his real life. His self confidence had grown to the point where he was excelling at work and was soon promoted to management where now he is a Senior VP. He still to this day credits EQ for giving him confidence and teaching him how to manage people.

    I kinda got sidetracked with that story there but its things like this that make gaming more than just a game. It creates lifelong friendships and many times gives people confidence in themselves. Perhaps this could be taken as just 1 of many examples as to why Epics should be in game. And as impossible as they may seem for some to complete it... let this story serve as an example of how its not quite as impossible as they may think.

    • 3016 posts
    May 25, 2016 6:49 AM PDT

    Goregod666 said:

    Just don't make it super hard and require tons of people throughout the whole thing...maybe the last couple of quest steps require a group or raid but most of it should be able to be completed by yourself and occasionally help with some friends.

     

    Only reason I say this, is because in EverQuest, I got about halfway through my epic weapon quest and then hit a brick wall and needed this raid and that raid and this plane and that plane and even when I did go on raids like that with others and had help, what I needed never even dropped.  I dreamed and dreamed of this weapon but by the time I even go close to finishing the quest for my Innoruuk's Curse, it was no longer relevant.

     

    Being level 75 with like 500 aa's, I went and finished the quest solo just to close that book of my Shadowknight's life but it still doesn't change the fact that I never could get it when Kunark and Velious were out, no matter how hard and long I tried.

    Experienced this exact thing..think my last piece had to drop in Karnor's Castle, (Venril Sathir)..managed to get an invite to one raid by the large guild that pretty much camped all the spots, for literally months on end. So the item did drop (I had been promised I could loot prior to joining) and then someone from that guild ninja looted it lol - end of story.    Way too frustrating...and that was just for the first wizard epic staff.      


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at May 25, 2016 6:50 AM PDT
    • 1303 posts
    May 25, 2016 10:44 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    There won't be twenty thousand players on a single server. This is just one of many unreasonable expectations you have for Pantheon.

    I'm not sure that 20k players is outside the realm of possibility. I'd bet that there are 3k unique accounts that log in to the p99 servers in a given week's period. Maybe many more.  And we're talking about a game that's in the state EQ live was in well over a decade ago. There are pretty consistently 1500-1800 on concurrently during peak hours. Depending on the landmass they build for Pantheon and how it's implimented, approaching 20k players with accounts might not be crazy. Obviously it would be pretty staggering to consider 20k logged in at a given time on one server shard. But 20k accounts for a server shard? Sure, I could see it. 

    That being said, I'm with you on the concept of limited availability of a quest. I dont like the notion that a thing can be placed out of my reach because I dont happen to log in and play 5 hours a night. If there's a shot clock as a normal mechanism, that clock is going to run out on me on a regular basis, because I simple will not dedicate a substantial amount of my life to a computer game. I have in the past, I found it to be unhealthy, and mechanics that encourage it are not something I can support. There's always the possibility of an item getting nerfed or removed from the game, and being placed out of my reach. But that's something done for the balance and health of the game itself, not a mechanic just to make a person feel elite because they have a collection of limited edition pixels. 

    And this disregards a fundimental issue in MMO game management which is the difficulty in dedicating sufficient developer resources in just keeping ahead of the consumption rate of players. It's hard enough to produce new content and explansions that the player base can collectively grow into, let alone adding another entire layer of designing, implimenting and retiring questlines in the existing content that, by design, only a fraction of the population will ever even hear about. If the item rewards have unique identifiable graphics, this issue is compounded in art generation. And if that's the case you're eventually talking about significantly more art assets loading to memory and being displayed by the player's game client, impacting performance at least in some small amount. 

    We all want a unique character, but that comes at costs maginified at multiple layers the further its a reality. I'd rather they get the game rock solid and add new tools or components that everyone consumes rather than spinning off on tangents that benefit very few. 

    • 613 posts
    May 25, 2016 10:59 AM PDT

    OakKnower stated:

    In saying that, I also believe that the more remarkable gear should be obtained through a variety of ways. Crafting, raids, extended and involved quest lines, faction, rare drops, etc. should be the means of obtaining the highest quality gear. Also, I believe that gear acquisition can be taken a step or two further. Perhaps certain crafting professions can alter or improve upon the gear's base stats or add some effect. Or specific ingredients needed to be obtained to perform a ritual to enhance the item. These needn't be extreme changes in the original item but slight improvements or perqs. Let's say depending on the item involved that there exists a limited amount of improvement capacity. We can call it an 'embelishment level'. The best gear might have three embelishment levels. There may exist only three types of embelishments an item can have. We can specify these as X, O, and I. Not all items would have three embelishment levels and not all levels would neccessarily be one of each type. Indeed, the most basic items likely may not have any at all. But the so-called 'Epic' items of yesteryear would have three. Now let's say that each embelishment type can only be utilized by a certain function. Let's say 'X' type embelishments would be precious gems that held minor enchantments. 'O' might be re-forging or re-pairing with a rare mineral or metal or alloy to give it a sharper edge or a slightly faster swing. And an 'I' level embelishment would be a unique enchantment that could only be placed on it at a specific location or through a specific ritual that required certain other items or players to participate in the ritual. You might find items with three 'X' embelishments and others that would have one of each type. Again, I'd want to stress that these embelishments would not make the item super-uber but allow for slight modifications and improvements to items that are already among the finest to be had. Items with three embelishment would obviously be the rarest to obtain and would equate with what we have known to in former MMO's as 'Epic' items.

    I like this type of thinking. The epic or legendary quest lines should be an all-encompassing event. Worthy of its description. I should take everything you have and groups of people in some cases to get what you need to make, get from a drop or even get the item from the quest itself. In some cases a living weapon would be interesting. You get the weapon during the quest and you improve it until it is usable but grows with the character. Just a thought.
    I for one love the epic quests. I have done or attempted them in every MMO I have played. They are fun, engaging and sometimes frustrating as all get out. The end goal abd the adventure getting there is all poart of the fun.

    Awesome discussion on this one guys!

    Ox

    • 1303 posts
    May 25, 2016 11:08 AM PDT

    I agree Ox, I love the epic quests. And of all my characters in all the games, I think I've actually finished one somewhere near that quets actual game era. But I love doing all the sub-quests and learning the lore, and putting myself in a position in which if I do happen to be logged on and there does happen to be a pickup raid going to the place I happen to need to go, I could potentially get the whole thing done! Adding the complexity of the steps I can pursue on smaller scale, whether they be quests or crafting or diplomacy or whatever, makes it that much more compelling to me. And makes it that much more satisfying to know if you do ever complete it you're in dedicated company.

    I dont mind at all that there are people who can get the quest done in a matter of weeks, rather than the months or years it might take me. Thats if I actually eventually pull it off at all. It's a goal floating out there that might someday become a reality, and I like that. 

    • 76 posts
    May 25, 2016 12:10 PM PDT

    Perhaps to appeal to all, which I rarely like to do...The 'Epic' item itself could be more feasibly obtained, however its true potential(maybe a clickable, obviously more stats, item glow/graphic) would require EQ1 equivalent work and dedication.

    • 578 posts
    May 25, 2016 1:44 PM PDT

    I definitely want to see epic 'quests'. Epic doesn't have to solely represent class weapons. That's just the way the term was coined in EQ. For me epic means grand in scale and I want a few epic quest lines in Pantheon. But I agree, the reward from an epic quest line should look very distinct/unique. People love to show off their hard work and you should know just by looking at someone that they have completed an epic quest line.

    EQ's class weapon types of quest lines. VG's griffon mount types of quest lines. I think even VG's POTA could be considered an epic quest line. These are all examples of the scale of quest lines I'd like to see in PRotF.

    • 154 posts
    May 25, 2016 3:27 PM PDT

    we love epics, make them hard and by hard i mean so crazy that barely anyone finishes. I probably wont get mine, but i want to envy someones weapon!

    • 2138 posts
    May 25, 2016 6:32 PM PDT

    I like epic quests for all the stated reasons. Part of the charm for me is the teaser of hope that comes with the epic quest- the long haul.

    • 1860 posts
    May 25, 2016 7:04 PM PDT

    I agree with everything mentioned.  We like epic quests. ie: long, multi part quests that are extremely difficult to complete so it give you a sense of accomplishment if you complete it and a sense of awe when you see it on someone else.  Give me a long grind and rare drops off rare spawn boss mobs...many multiple of them.  Something I can work on for a year or more. 

    Noobiedoo mentioned epic mounts quests.  Also:

    Epic armor piece/relic quests or epic spells/skills/abilities...maybe extended out over the course of the game. Very infrequently...

    1 every other expansion or some such thing...beecause we shouldn't be able to get multiple "epic" type items simultaneously or they lose some of their epicness.  Maybe one long giant "epic" quest that is released little by little that has a prerequisite of the earlier epic item so that by the time you finish it 10 years from now you have the full epic suit.

    Slight upgrades to the original epics years down the line, as has been done in past games, so they don't lose the feeling of being "epic".

    Yes please, love it.

    • 3016 posts
    May 26, 2016 11:49 AM PDT

    What about epic quests for flying mounts (note I am neither for or against flying mounts) or an epic mount that is part of the endgame "reward"..(I like epic quests too in spite of the frustration encountered sometimes :P)

    • 172 posts
    May 27, 2016 5:36 PM PDT

    I am all for Epic quests.  And yes, these should be for epic items, not buffs.  Some have brought up the fact that back in EQ (2001-ish) one could put many, many hours into the quest and get nothing from it, while others just got 'lucky' after half the time you put in.  Some want items that are more solo-able, and others want a full group/raid style quest.  From what I can see, all of these issues can be simply addressed by the use of different Epic quests and removing one 'drop category'.

     

    The first part of the solution is to use multiple types of items for each class, or just different types of quests for each class.  Using EQ as an example (simply because most are so familiar with it):  A necromancer tended to be a loner.  So make the Epic quest more solo-oriented.  Whereas a cleric tended to be a group/raid centered class.  Make their epic very group/raid oriented.  Obviously no Epic should be stricly group/raid oriented or 100% soloable, but different classes could have different 'tilts' to this balance. 

    Secondly, no Epic should be easy, under any circumstances.  And people should not be guaranteed an epic.  That said, a lot of consternation and problems could be resolved if we removed the 'super rare drop' category from epic drops.  Make the mobs tough to kill or spawn or whatever, but make the items appear with enough frquency that someone doesnt have to kill VS 37 times to get their epic drop.  (what makes the 37 times even worse, is when you have to watch some other person in your raid who just started their epic roll a high number and BAM...  they have their epic before you, even though they just started playing the game 4 months ago and you have put in massive amounts of time for the last 3 years)  I don't care who how hard core you are about making Epics rare, dificult to get, not everyone gets one...   that last scenario I outlined will inflame anyone!  And anyone who was in the raid scene back in early EQ knows exactly what I am talking about.


    This post was edited by JDNight at May 27, 2016 6:09 PM PDT
    • 39 posts
    May 27, 2016 10:40 PM PDT

    Kalgore said:

    This being the community oriented game it is I was wondering peoples take on EPIC quest lines.

    My example is from EQ2 and its epic weapon quest line with dozens of steps that ended with needing a raid to finish.  I remember our raid hitting Veeshans Peak and having 35 people all on the last step and zoning them in and out based off the mob they needed and then turning them in all at once and flooding the screen with Server wide So and so has looted the mythical weapon blah blah blah.  

     

    I personally loved the quest line and everything you had to do it was indeed a group/raid needed and it delivered an amazing weapon worthy of the cost to get it.  So how many people would like to see a Class specific epic quest.  Every class has a different quest with many parts. 

    I am shure their will be many many epic quests...

    • 7 posts
    August 7, 2022 7:17 AM PDT

    Goregod666 said:

    "It sucks when you're in that situation, but if everybody could get it, it wouldn't be epic, would it? Your circumstance is exactly what made the epic rewards in EQ so amazing." 

     

    I get what you're saying but when its beyond ridiculously hard and the amount of time I spent even trying to get it and still couldn't is a real downer and makes you not want to keep playing.  Which I did eventually stop playing EverQuest and moved on to other games.  Not entirely because I couldn't get it but its all I wanted and tried to get and came up empty.  Eventually, you get extremely frustrated and give up.

    Make it tough and make it epic but not to the point where there is possibility I might never even get the freaking thing.

    I'm not asking for instant gratification like a lot of games out there but when I'm putting real money towards something...I expect to eventually get what I'm paying for if you know what I mean.

    I bought a movie ticket...now I get to watch the movie.  Bad example lol, but I think you understand.

     

     

    Somewhat agree / somewhat disagree 

    In P99 the mage Earth Staff that dropped in hate was just plane broken for a while. There were so few mages with their epic complete it was hilarious. On the flip side so much of the Rogue epic was skippable it was also a bit hilarious... vs the enchanter who could not MQ any of his quest and had some pretty nasty camps. Most of which were created by putting mobs needed to be killed in starter areas that were just vacant and required you to get friends to camp out characters to help you... but then you had a mulitday spawn that skipped or didnt drop items or something stupid. The Pained Soul key piece for VP was a little stupid in time requirement as was stormfeather even though i considered both of those serious accomplishments when I finally completed them. They would not have been as satisfying had they not been so hard. But I also would not have completed them with out a bit of luck. 

    At the time I was also in college and didnt mind skipping a class to get something done. 20 years later I do not have the same time commitments. 

     
    • 3852 posts
    August 7, 2022 9:36 AM PDT

    "Somewhat agree / somewhat disagree"

     

    Fair enough. 

    My view on an epic quest line is that it should require a certain number of things to be done and once those things are done you should get the credit for a completed quest. Note I do not say those things should be done *easily*. But it shouldn't be random. If step 56 is to kill an elder God in a raid - once Cthulhu goes down you should be done. There should not be an item that drops 1% of the time that everyone in the raid rolls for and only the lucky winner completes his or her epic. 

    So technically I would fully agree with the quoted text from CeriasShadow's post above. But I emphasize that while that is my opinion for epic quest credit it is not my opinion for "epic" quality gear. Random drops are fine with me and if that means an unlucky person never gets it - that is life. Adds to the excitement of those that do get it.