This being the community oriented game it is I was wondering peoples take on EPIC quest lines.
My example is from EQ2 and its epic weapon quest line with dozens of steps that ended with needing a raid to finish. I remember our raid hitting Veeshans Peak and having 35 people all on the last step and zoning them in and out based off the mob they needed and then turning them in all at once and flooding the screen with Server wide So and so has looted the mythical weapon blah blah blah.
I personally loved the quest line and everything you had to do it was indeed a group/raid needed and it delivered an amazing weapon worthy of the cost to get it. So how many people would like to see a Class specific epic quest. Every class has a different quest with many parts.
Just don't make it super hard and require tons of people throughout the whole thing...maybe the last couple of quest steps require a group or raid but most of it should be able to be completed by yourself and occasionally help with some friends.
Only reason I say this, is because in EverQuest, I got about halfway through my epic weapon quest and then hit a brick wall and needed this raid and that raid and this plane and that plane and even when I did go on raids like that with others and had help, what I needed never even dropped. I dreamed and dreamed of this weapon but by the time I even go close to finishing the quest for my Innoruuk's Curse, it was no longer relevant.
Being level 75 with like 500 aa's, I went and finished the quest solo just to close that book of my Shadowknight's life but it still doesn't change the fact that I never could get it when Kunark and Velious were out, no matter how hard and long I tried.
Goregod666 said:Just don't make it super hard and require tons of people throughout the whole thing...maybe the last couple of quest steps require a group or raid but most of it should be able to be completed by yourself and occasionally help with some friends.
Only reason I say this, is because in EverQuest, I got about halfway through my epic weapon quest and then hit a brick wall and needed this raid and that raid and this plane and that plane and even when I did go on raids like that with others and had help, what I needed never even dropped. I dreamed and dreamed of this weapon but by the time I even go close to finishing the quest for my Innoruuk's Curse, it was no longer relevant.
Being level 75 with like 500 aa's, I went and finished the quest solo just to close that book of my Shadowknight's life but it still doesn't change the fact that I never could get it when Kunark and Velious were out, no matter how hard and long I tried.
It sucks when you're in that situation, but if everybody could get it, it wouldn't be epic, would it? Your circumstance is exactly what made the epic rewards in EQ so amazing.
Epic weapons should need a large force to obtain. I believe eq2 did something like two versions, a difficult group or solo quest line to get a nice weapon, then a raid required to upgrade its awesomeness.
Dont just keep it to epic weapons, have long difficult quests and stories for other items too.
Graivus said:Epic weapons should need a large force to obtain. I believe eq2 did something like two versions, a difficult group or solo quest line to get a nice weapon, then a raid required to upgrade its awesomeness.
Dont just keep it to epic weapons, have long difficult quests and stories for other items too.
Yup they did you got the none epic Weapon which was decent but when you completed the needed raid boss it became EPIC and you sported that thing like a BOSS. I would love to see more then weapons It was just the example I used.
"It sucks when you're in that situation, but if everybody could get it, it wouldn't be epic, would it? Your circumstance is exactly what made the epic rewards in EQ so amazing."
I get what you're saying but when its beyond ridiculously hard and the amount of time I spent even trying to get it and still couldn't is a real downer and makes you not want to keep playing. Which I did eventually stop playing EverQuest and moved on to other games. Not entirely because I couldn't get it but its all I wanted and tried to get and came up empty. Eventually, you get extremely frustrated and give up.
Make it tough and make it epic but not to the point where there is possibility I might never even get the freaking thing.
I'm not asking for instant gratification like a lot of games out there but when I'm putting real money towards something...I expect to eventually get what I'm paying for if you know what I mean.
I bought a movie ticket...now I get to watch the movie. Bad example lol, but I think you understand.
Goregod666 said:"It sucks when you're in that situation, but if everybody could get it, it wouldn't be epic, would it? Your circumstance is exactly what made the epic rewards in EQ so amazing."
I get what you're saying but when its beyond ridiculously hard and the amount of time I spent even trying to get it and still couldn't is a real downer and makes you not want to keep playing. Which I did eventually stop playing EverQuest and moved on to other games. Not entirely because I couldn't get it but its all I wanted and tried to get and came up empty. Eventually, you get extremely frustrated and give up.
Make it tough and make it epic but not to the point where there is possibility I might never even get the freaking thing.
I'm not asking for instant gratification like a lot of games out there but when I'm putting real money towards something...I expect to eventually get what I'm paying for if you know what I mean.
I bought a movie ticket...now I get to watch the movie. Bad example lol, but I think you understand.
This is a horrible outlook and really seems like has driven MMO to what they are now. "Im paying money I deserve this". Nothing is impossible to get but if you dont take the effor tot joina guild capable of taking down those needed raid mobs thats on you not the game.
Kalgore said:Goregod666 said:"It sucks when you're in that situation, but if everybody could get it, it wouldn't be epic, would it? Your circumstance is exactly what made the epic rewards in EQ so amazing."
I get what you're saying but when its beyond ridiculously hard and the amount of time I spent even trying to get it and still couldn't is a real downer and makes you not want to keep playing. Which I did eventually stop playing EverQuest and moved on to other games. Not entirely because I couldn't get it but its all I wanted and tried to get and came up empty. Eventually, you get extremely frustrated and give up.
Make it tough and make it epic but not to the point where there is possibility I might never even get the freaking thing.
I'm not asking for instant gratification like a lot of games out there but when I'm putting real money towards something...I expect to eventually get what I'm paying for if you know what I mean.
I bought a movie ticket...now I get to watch the movie. Bad example lol, but I think you understand.
This is a horrible outlook and really seems like has driven MMO to what they are now. "Im paying money I deserve this". Nothing is impossible to get but if you dont take the effor tot joina guild capable of taking down those needed raid mobs thats on you not the game.
I think you're not quite understanding me. I just said I'm not asking for instant gratification and it should be handed to me on a silver platter. I'm simply saying, can you make it fun and epic but not hard to the point where I may never even complete the adventurous quest and obtain the weapon...
I don't see how anybody could disagree with me on this...
I was in a guild capable of doing raids, I put tons of time and effort into getting it...but never did. It was depressing to see other shadowknights running around with their epics.
You made it sound like I'm for pay2win games...you are way off base heh.
Goregod666 said:Kalgore said:Goregod666 said:"It sucks when you're in that situation, but if everybody could get it, it wouldn't be epic, would it? Your circumstance is exactly what made the epic rewards in EQ so amazing."
I get what you're saying but when its beyond ridiculously hard and the amount of time I spent even trying to get it and still couldn't is a real downer and makes you not want to keep playing. Which I did eventually stop playing EverQuest and moved on to other games. Not entirely because I couldn't get it but its all I wanted and tried to get and came up empty. Eventually, you get extremely frustrated and give up.
Make it tough and make it epic but not to the point where there is possibility I might never even get the freaking thing.
I'm not asking for instant gratification like a lot of games out there but when I'm putting real money towards something...I expect to eventually get what I'm paying for if you know what I mean.
I bought a movie ticket...now I get to watch the movie. Bad example lol, but I think you understand.
This is a horrible outlook and really seems like has driven MMO to what they are now. "Im paying money I deserve this". Nothing is impossible to get but if you dont take the effor tot joina guild capable of taking down those needed raid mobs thats on you not the game.
I think you're not quite understanding me. I just said I'm not asking for instant gratification and it should be handed to me on a silver platter. I'm simply saying, can you make it fun and epic but not hard to the point where I may never even complete the adventurous quest and obtain the weapon...
I don't see how anybody could disagree with me on this...
I was in a guild capable of doing raids, I put tons of time and effort into getting it...but never did. It was depressing to see other shadowknights running around with their epics.
You made it sound like I'm for pay2win games...you are way off base heh.
No I'm not off base the quests wernt impossible they were hard if some people cant do it thats the point of it being one of the best items in the game. It would mean nothing if everyone could get it. The whole point of an Epic quest line is only a few might actully get the item regardless how long they tried. It amounts to the same as a particpation trophy and says oh you tried for a long time here you go. No one really wants those.
"No I'm not off base the quests wernt impossible they were hard if some people cant do it thats the point of it being one of the best items in the game. It would mean nothing if everyone could get it. The whole point of an Epic quest line is only a few might actully get the item regardless how long they tried"
My off base comment was directed only at the fact you made it sound like i was for pay2win stuff only...which I'm not whatsoever.
My view on it is that spending hours upon hours upon hours and effort to get what you desperately want should be rewarded in the time of its relevance.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I like quests in general. Regarding epics, I understand that it is an epic, maybe not everyone can get one as quickly as others. I have known well accomplished people in my class, that just did not want to get their epic and were fine without it.
An epic is really a slow-burner kind of thing. What i like to see in epic quests is if they start of fairly easy, and get progressively harder and harder. I did not mind looking in my bank slots and seeing how far along I was, and oh yes I even seriously contemplated selling or trashing what I had so far just due to the perceived currnet impossibility of it.
Of course, everyone would like their epic, but everyone doesn't need their epic, at least that is what i like to tell myself and honestly for my own selfish reasons as I dont want to be too hard on myself if it never comes through plus I dont want it to dictate wether or not I will be frustrated in the game.
But what i did discover, was how neat it felt to constantly gain hope, every so often. That one piece would drop, or one person would randomly fling a piece your way because they recognized your class. I was able to remember that re-gaining of hope and associated it with my experience in the game, so that logging in had me overwhelmed with the possibilities of hope , not only for the epic, but for other things- Hard grouping , some raiding, friends, interesting drops, Crafting projects, exploring, exploring- who needs an epic?. it became almost nostalgic in its aspect, for I remember having hope in sucha thing, and here, with this I have the hope again.
It was nice. Some may say obsessive and there is that quality I grant you, but for me it was not the obsessive quality that drove the impetus. It was the hope.
Clearly a soloable quest, regardless of the number of steps, isn't really epic. Yet such a quest which requires multiple groups time and time again is even worse. A nice blend of many soloable parts, mingled with a few group sized components and finally a raid or two probably at the end.
I constantly refer to the Coldain Prayer Shawl and Coldain Ring quests. Those had that nice balance. The key which set them apart from the class epic quests was that the raid portions provided some rewards for the participants. You could, by helping out, possibly win an item. Giving participants at least the possibility of reward for their efforts goes a long way to alleviating the problem that Goregod666 experienced.
I hope epic quests are kept "epic" and hard to obtain. My only request is that bottlenecks be really vented. I'm talking about portions of epics that would cause someone else, or a force able to prevent others from attempting it. I also don't think anything in regards to epics should be able to be bypassed by currency. If you want it, you do the work for it, plain and simple.
Bluefyre said:I would like to see branching epic quests that aren't linear and can change outcomes based on choices you make. And maybe you could have simpler branches in the quest with less rewards. But the best rewards should reflect the difficulty to obtain.
I agree with this idea. Epic quests should not follow a linear recipe that requires all players of the same class to follow strictly. In fact, I'm not certain 'an Epic quest' should exist at all.
Allow me to explain, in the sense that extraordinary gear is acheivable is not what I'm questioning here. Rare and exeptional weapons and gear should be a part of the game experience but it doesn't require the 'epic' title. The idea here is that a warrior could obtain one of a number of weapons that are all unrivaled but each weapon would have specific uses or qualities inherent with each item. Perhaps a sword that was particularly resistanct to dragon fire, and another that caused some affliction with critical hits, and another that slightly debuffed certain mob types. It's not that any of the weapons failed if a specific scenario didn't exist (or criteria not met) but if it did, there would be some advantage or reduction of disadvantage. For example, the Dragon Fire resistant sword would accrue less damage during the of fighting dragons. Any other sword, however, would readily loose effectiveness in the same situation, becoming less effective over time and ultimately requiring repairs much sooner than a more ideal weapon would. This idea would involve making critical choices about more specific encounters rather than utilizing the same and only Epic sword that exists. Granted, we wouldn't want to have an array of 50 swords to choose from (how would you carry them all?). Rather, soft limits for the carrying of gear can exist to bring in realism. Conan, carried several weapons no?
In saying that, I also believe that the more remarkable gear should be obtained through a variety of ways. Crafting, raids, extended and involved quest lines, faction, rare drops, etc. should be the means of obtaining the highest quality gear. Also, I believe that gear acquisition can be taken a step or two further. Perhaps certain crafting professions can alter or improve upon the gear's base stats or add some effect. Or specific ingredients needed to be obtained to perform a ritual to enhance the item. These needn't be extreme changes in the original item but slight improvements or perqs. Let's say depending on the item involved that there exists a limited amount of improvement capacity. We can call it an 'embelishment level'. The best gear might have three embelishment levels. There may exist only three types of embelishments an item can have. We can specify these as X, O, and I. Not all items would have three embelishment levels and not all levels would neccessarily be one of each type. Indeed, the most basic items likely may not have any at all. But the so-called 'Epic' items of yesteryear would have three. Now let's say that each embelishment type can only be utilized by a certain function. Let's say 'X' type embelishments would be precious gems that held minor enchantments. 'O' might be re-forging or re-pairing with a rare mineral or metal or alloy to give it a sharper edge or a slightly faster swing. And an 'I' level embelishment would be a unique enchantment that could only be placed on it at a specific location or through a specific ritual that required certain other items or players to participate in the ritual. You might find items with three 'X' embelishments and others that would have one of each type. Again, I'd want to stress that these embelishments would not make the item super-uber but allow for slight modifications and improvements to items that are already among the finest to be had. Items with three embelishment would obviously be the rarest to obtain and would equate with what we have known to in former MMO's as 'Epic' items.
In terms of taking the above to the next level, items that had the X embelishment level could only be fitted with gems of a certain type or cut or both. However, this knowledge would not be known from acquiring the item outright. It would require looking deeper into the lore of the item involved. This requisite may be comprised of some adventure in other parts of the world or the tracking down an old, mysterious crone to gleen information from, or perhaps hints could be obtained from an old tomb found nearby. The lore seeking could involve a series of these events. Once this research was completed (the lore of the item) then the X level embelishment could be applied provided you had one to utilize. And this, of course, would neccesarily involve other player characters and their abilty to craft such an item. This would be the case, through variations, with each embelishment level. Thus, in order to fully actualize an item that has three embelishment levels would require significant investment, the interdependence of other player characters, the study of game lore, the discovery of otherwise unknown locations, etc. etc.
Rambling and dense, I know. But in addition to having a non-linear method of obtaining the most extraordinary gear it should be densely and intimately involved with game lore, it should include an interdependence with the player community, and it should provide for varous levels of acheivement that occur over a continuum.
Just my 2cp.
OakKnower,
I agree and disagree to a certain point. I think it would be great to have much more "specialty" items obtainable through a difficult process. Certainly having certain gear for certain uses is a great concept, but the problem I have is as follows. When you are pretty much "required" by either mechanics or community standards to use said specialty gear for certain encounters, you are loaded down in some way with all this excess gear that you only use for certain instances and are forced to hang on to. This has always been a peve of mine in games. I hate needing to store excess stuff. Maybe there would be a better way to implement it? If there was some way to make this more cut and dry then I would be game for it, and I'm not sure how it could be done.
You mentioned crafting...Maybe, crafting or some other skill could tie in to this speciality items? Extract power from them and use it in another appropriate piece?
Some thoughts. Great ideas though!
warlored said:OakKnower,
I agree and disagree to a certain point. I think it would be great to have much more "specialty" items obtainable through a difficult process. Certainly having certain gear for certain uses is a great concept, but the problem I have is as follows. When you are pretty much "required" by either mechanics or community standards to use said specialty gear for certain encounters, you are loaded down in some way with all this excess gear that you only use for certain instances and are forced to hang on to. This has always been a peve of mine in games. I hate needing to store excess stuff. Maybe there would be a better way to implement it? If there was some way to make this more cut and dry then I would be game for it, and I'm not sure how it could be done.
You mentioned crafting...Maybe, crafting or some other skill could tie in to this speciality items? Extract power from them and use it in another appropriate piece?
Some thoughts. Great ideas though!
Thanks for reading my idea.
I agree it could potentially have some problems. There would definately have to be some limitations. Perhaps not placing such a large investment on those embelishments, at least to the degree that players require a hard stance on such equipment. One of the things that gets my goat in MMOs is the general tell; "LF Warrior - for Dungeon X run. Must have __insert requisite stat or item__".
Again, I did not intend for the idea to sound like it had to be required for anything. Something added to make it just noticable but not absolutely neccesary.
warlored said:OakKnower,
I agree and disagree to a certain point. I think it would be great to have much more "specialty" items obtainable through a difficult process. Certainly having certain gear for certain uses is a great concept, but the problem I have is as follows. When you are pretty much "required" by either mechanics or community standards to use said specialty gear for certain encounters, you are loaded down in some way with all this excess gear that you only use for certain instances and are forced to hang on to. This has always been a peve of mine in games. I hate needing to store excess stuff. Maybe there would be a better way to implement it? If there was some way to make this more cut and dry then I would be game for it, and I'm not sure how it could be done.
You mentioned crafting...Maybe, crafting or some other skill could tie in to this speciality items? Extract power from them and use it in another appropriate piece?
Some thoughts. Great ideas though!
Thanks for reading my idea.
I agree it could potentially have some problems. There would definately have to be some limitations. Perhaps not placing such a large investment on those embelishments, at least to the degree that players require a hard stance on such equipment. One of the things that gets my goat in MMOs is the general tell; "LF Warrior - for Dungeon X run. Must have __insert requisite stat or item__".
Again, I did not intend for the idea to sound like it had to be required for anything. Something added to make it just noticable but not absolutely neccesary.
I'm a firm believer that most all content should be tackled with good teamwork and player skill and knowledge of your class and situation. Not by the equipment you have.
I understand what you mean Oak. I think most of us can agree on disliking having those "requirements" to be competitive. The problem lies when you do have stuff like that, that can make encounters drastically different in terms of ease. The player or guilds will inherit their own requirements of having such items. As long as the game doesn't allow players to be limited by such then it wouldn't be a problem to me.
I hope that the epic quests in Pantheon remain pretty 'epic' in scope. I like the way the epic 2.0's were implemented in EQ though, where there was a 1.5, 2.0 and later a 2.5, depending on how far you made it through the quest. For super-long quests, it's nice to have some interim rewards that are usable, even if no where near the quality of the final result.
One of the problems with epics in EQ, and why they quit doing them, was that it was a lot of developer time for a piece of equipment that only remained viable for at most an extra expansion or two (not totally true, at level 100 I was still using my Earthcaller to slow mobs when I solo'd). With the larger emphasis on situational gear, and what sounds like a desire to keep equipment viable for a longer period of time, this may not be an issue in Pantheon. If that's the case, it will help eleviate the issue for those who find themselves in Goregod666's position of having trouble acquiring the weapons within their usable lifetimes.