Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Mentoring : Yea or Nay ?

    • 432 posts
    August 10, 2016 8:16 AM PDT

    You would know soon as they started to tell the group this is how to do this and how to do that. It wouldnt be just you in the group since Pantheon is a return to needing a group, so your mentor would be dumbing down content for everyone in the group.

    Mentoring is boring handholding gameplay you might like it but I do not

     

    The argument of mentoring cheapening gameplay doesn't seem 100% correct to me. an alt would be the same situation (game knowledge). or even a person leveling a new character in the game. The only players who get to have a fresh experience are those experiencing content just released. I'm against hand holding as well, but mentoring just doesn't fit in with that description to me.

     

    -Todd

     

     

    • 147 posts
    August 10, 2016 9:55 AM PDT

    tehtawd said:

    You would know soon as they started to tell the group this is how to do this and how to do that. It wouldnt be just you in the group since Pantheon is a return to needing a group, so your mentor would be dumbing down content for everyone in the group.

    Mentoring is boring handholding gameplay you might like it but I do not

     

    The argument of mentoring cheapening gameplay doesn't seem 100% correct to me. an alt would be the same situation (game knowledge). or even a person leveling a new character in the game. The only players who get to have a fresh experience are those experiencing content just released. I'm against hand holding as well, but mentoring just doesn't fit in with that description to me.

     

    -Todd

     

     

     
     Definition of “hand-holding” - English Dictionary

    help and advice given to someone when they are doing something for the first time.

     

    I would rather not have any powerleveling or mentoring both are hand holding.  Powerleveling wouldnt happen for awhile after the game launched, mentoring would be hand holding from the start.

    That is not a hardcore oldschool MMO stlye of gameplay, that is breaking away from the vision for something other than what is out there on the MMO market. 

     

     

     

    This post was edited by Obliquity at August 10, 2016 9:56 AM PDT
    • 116 posts
    August 10, 2016 10:25 AM PDT

    Obliquity said:

    You would know soon as they started to tell the group this is how to do this and how to do that. It wouldnt be just you in the group since Pantheon is a return to needing a group, so your mentor would be dumbing down content for everyone in the group.

    Mentoring is boring handholding gameplay you might like it but I do not

    There is no practical way to prevent what you are describing from happening. I hop on an alt, play my brother's account, go read guides on the internet, etc and I can tell the group not to walk over that trap...

    If you want absolutely no one "handholding" you, you need to win the level race in beta and be the first to do every single piece of content out there...and then maybe you can let the rest of us enjoy playing with our RL friends that are slow to level.

    • 147 posts
    August 10, 2016 11:00 AM PDT

    Mekada said:

    There is no practical way to prevent what you are describing from happening. I hop on an alt, play my brother's account, go read guides on the internet, etc and I can tell the group not to walk over that trap...

    If you want absolutely no one "handholding" you, you need to win the level race in beta and be the first to do every single piece of content out there...and then maybe you can let the rest of us enjoy playing with our RL friends that are slow to level.

    Enjoy playing with your RL friends don't out level them or if you can't wait for your "slow to level friends" make an alt for it. No need to waste time on something that isnt really needed like mentoring. Those guides are not available at launch tho and the dev's dont spend their time to write them. Rather have VR devs working on combat/crafting/content etc... and not hand holding fluff. Don't need to race in beta you will only get to see the content they want you to test and it will be about finding bugs not how fast you can level.

     My opinion only not trying to hurt anyones feelings.

     


    This post was edited by Obliquity at August 10, 2016 11:15 AM PDT
    • 1281 posts
    August 10, 2016 1:28 PM PDT

    tehtawd said:

     

    I couldn't even fathom having to have 10-20 alts just to have something to play with friends. Also with no fast travel it would be a headache to get to my friends. Heck, on the other note then I'd have to lvl another alt if I took an alt too high. And honestly I don't care for having tons of different classes. I'm a 1 character kind of guy.

     

    ... deciding to go without mentoring I think would just create problems. #opinion

     

     

     

    -Todd

     

     

    Hyperbolize much?

    If this game is anything like EQ (which it's going to be), you could be 5-8 levels away from someone and still group with them and gain XP. Even if you had friends level 5, 15, 25, 35, 45, that would be 5 alt's, worst case scenario. More likely 2 or 3 chars total (1 around entry level, 1 mid levels, 1 high levels).

    Travel has nothing to do with it becuase even if you could down level, you would still travel. I make the argument that creating an alt around each starting city in fact makes all your problems disappear (having lower level chars to play with friends and not having to travel).

     


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at August 10, 2016 1:34 PM PDT
    • 3016 posts
    August 10, 2016 3:05 PM PDT

    tehtawd said:

    I couldn't even fathom having to have 10-20 alts just to have something to play with friends. Also with no fast travel it would be a headache to get to my friends. Heck, on the other note then I'd have to lvl another alt if I took an alt too high. And honestly I don't care for having tons of different classes. I'm a 1 character kind of guy.

    ... deciding to go without mentoring I think would just create problems. #opinion

     

    -Todd

    To be honest I've been on-line gaming since 1995...it would be highly unusual to create more than 3 or 4 alts for the purpose of helping out a friend or two.  (I would create more for crafting anyways)    Never seen evidence of 10 20 alts just for showing your real life friends the ropes.    Not necessary.    And I don't consider this a race...someone gets ahead of me in levels...doesn't affect me one iota.   Happens all the time.  I like to take time to smell the roses as it were.   Someone wants to power level to 50 and wait forever for the rest of us to catch up...their choice.  

     

    Cana


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at August 10, 2016 3:06 PM PDT
    • 138 posts
    August 10, 2016 3:15 PM PDT

    This feels like one of those topics the EQ reboot gang will just outright reject regardless of the mechanics within the system. 95% of us here are old EQ guys, but we are never going to all agree on to what degree we want this game to emulate EQ.  I’ve enjoyed helping power level my friend’s alts in EQ (to an extent) and having the same done in reverse, but that was a much more “game breaking” mechanic than a mentoring system that properly allows a character to delevel down to an evenly powered level of their friend.

    If a player mentors down to level 14 to play with friends, and the mentoring system truly balances that player into a run of the mill level 14, I see no harm coming from that system. I can understand how people don’t want to play/group with an overpowered character who is mentored down to a lower level, but the point most of the mentoring advocates are trying to make here is, if done correctly, this won’t be an issue. Depending on how it is implemented (/roleplay - /Anon mechanics in mind) you may never even know you’re playing with a character who mentored down. At the end of the day, if you’re someone who disagrees with the ideas behind the system, then simply never use it.

    Ultimately, I advocate for the varying server types solution to bridge the differences. We already know Brad has talked about, and is open to, around 4-6 alternate server types (maybe more), and this should handle these types of issues pretty handedly. I agree with all the hard, old school tenets of this game, but I would like more modern tools in place to keep my gaming group together. If I can only have those tools (caravans, mentoring, etc..) on a “standard” server then so be it. I’ll leave the more barebones game play to the folks on the “veteran” or “hardmode” servers. From my perspective, the more systems that keep the game fun for large groups of friends as a whole, the more money will be paid and for longer. I know I’m not the only guy who has a group of gamers they play with that feels the same. Rolling alts does not do the trick. It’s nowhere near as dynamic as mentoring.


    This post was edited by Katalyzt at August 10, 2016 3:20 PM PDT
    • 393 posts
    August 10, 2016 5:01 PM PDT

    I think the server type solution is a great idea but one that might be a challenge for the team to establish. If you consider server types that have varyng degrees of death penalties, cash shops or none, etc., the choices can quickly get overwhelming. The other thing to consider would be the collective decisions of where guilds would decide to place themselves while serving the needs and desires of their memberships.

     

    • 138 posts
    August 10, 2016 5:54 PM PDT

    OakKnower said:

    I think the server type solution is a great idea but one that might be a challenge for the team to establish. If you consider server types that have varyng degrees of death penalties, cash shops or none, etc., the choices can quickly get overwhelming. The other thing to consider would be the collective decisions of where guilds would decide to place themselves while serving the needs and desires of their memberships.

     

     

    I don’t think there will be, nor would I necessarily be an advocate for, servers with varying death penalties. However, if there were any variation at all, I would prefer it be brutal naked corpse run with exp loss vs semi-naked (maybe keep jewelry and whatever items you were holding) corpse run with exp loss.  It will more than likely look something like this:

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Normal (Standard server)

    Normal – PVP

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Veteran (hardmode ruleset, no caravans, mentoring, group directional arrows, etc...)

    Veteran – PVP

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    -        Other possibilities -

    Roleplay - (not sure which direction they would want to go here with rules, but roleplaying has a following)

    Roleplay PVP

     

    Popularity would dictate how many of each. That’s really not that different from original EQ. EQ actually had a handful of other weird variations on top of the 6 listed here.


    This post was edited by Katalyzt at August 10, 2016 5:55 PM PDT
    • 151 posts
    October 7, 2016 11:23 AM PDT

    I mentored in EQ2 and Rift a few times, maybe half a dozen total combined, when people needed help with a quest line in a dungeon or something.  The systems worked fine.

    I'd be willing to mentor down and help people now and then when I had the time if it automatically scales down my spells for me.  If I have to screw around redoing my hotbars just to mentor down for somebody then it's very unlikely to happen.

    Add it or not, doesn't matter to me.  If it's a mentoring system that requires a bunch of screwing around with hotbars and someone needs help I'll just powerlevel them outside of group a bit.  Will be faster for them anyway.

    • 147 posts
    October 7, 2016 12:31 PM PDT

    Searril said:I mentored in EQ2 and Rift a few times, maybe half a dozen total combined, when people needed help with a quest line in a dungeon or something.  The systems worked fine.

    Rift = Mentor to any level with your character without being grouped and it got abused a lot. 

    Eq2 = Mentoring a merc (npc) to farm named mobs for rare loot, while players of the correct level didnt stand a chance. Not to mention all the abuse that happend on pvp servers because of mentoring.

    If Pantheon has mentoring I guarantee it will be exploited.

     

     

    • 151 posts
    October 7, 2016 12:42 PM PDT

    Obliquity said:

    Searril said:I mentored in EQ2 and Rift a few times, maybe half a dozen total combined, when people needed help with a quest line in a dungeon or something.  The systems worked fine.

    Rift = Mentor to any level with your character without being grouped and it got abused a lot. 

    Eq2 = Mentoring a merc (npc) to farm named mobs for rare loot, while players of the correct level didnt stand a chance. Not to mention all the abuse that happend on pvp servers because of mentoring.

    If Pantheon has mentoring I guarantee it will be exploited. 

    It's been a couple years since I played Rift, and at least 5 years since EQ2, but in all the time I played either game I never once heard a high level person talk about how badly they wanted to mentor down to farm level 20 loot that nobody cared about and wasn't worth anything.  I find it very hard to believe this is really an issue.

    Just make it so you can't mentor an NPC if someone thinks it's that big of a deal.

    In the end, it doesn't really matter.  I've met a lot of people in Rift and EQ2 and mentoring is something that simply isn't used very often at all -- rare occurrences for specific purposes.

    • 166 posts
    October 7, 2016 12:49 PM PDT

    The aspect of mentoring, that allows two or more players of different levels to play together is very appealing to me. If my friend will start later then me to play Pantheon I can still play together with them without the need to start a new character.

    But it should be very strict. All players are adjusted to the level of the lowest player. And not only the character level, also the item levels should be adjusted as well. This means, there must be at least on other player in the group to use mentoring. So no super strong low level characters, that are downgraded using the mentoring system. Even the skills and skill points should be adjusted to the lowest player of the mentoring group.

    The mentor should only get the same drops as the normal players in that level range and only the same XP, if he even gets any. No PvP should be possible in this mode. And it should even be restricted how quick or how often in a short period a high level character can switch to mentoring mode and back to normal mode.

    I think if it is restricted in a good way, it could be an enrichment for the team play and let you experience the low level region again without creating a new character.

    • 147 posts
    October 7, 2016 12:56 PM PDT

    Searril said: It's been a couple years since I played Rift, and at least 5 years since EQ2, but in all the time I played either game I never once heard a high level person talk about how badly they wanted to mentor down to farm level 20 loot that nobody cared about and wasn't worth anything.  I find it very hard to believe this is really an issue.

    Just make it so you can't mentor an NPC if someone thinks it's that big of a deal.

    In the end, it doesn't really matter.  I've met a lot of people in Rift and EQ2 and mentoring is something that simply isn't used very often at all -- rare occurrences for specific purposes.

    Players of the appropriate level cared for that loot and its worth something to them. Not to mention taking away conent from those players.

    No need for a system that wouldnt be used much...right?

    • 1618 posts
    December 10, 2016 9:12 PM PST

    I have a wife and 5 kids that play games together. Everyone has different schedules and dedication. Mentoring is a must. It's almost impossible to maintain enough alts to be able to play with them all.

    • 131 posts
    December 11, 2016 6:26 AM PST

    Beefcake said:

    I have a wife and 5 kids that play games together. Everyone has different schedules and dedication. Mentoring is a must. It's almost impossible to maintain enough alts to be able to play with them all.

    I agree Beefcake!

    I was so glad to hear that mentoring is definite.  I just bought my 12yo daughter a new PC with the future (and Pantheon) in mind.  It will be our first MMO together and I know that I will outlevel her in no time.  Mentoring takes the pressure off and will allow us to spend time together when we can.  Not to mention I have always greatly enjoyed helping newer players.  I agree that in a game that is so community and group centric, a mentoring system really is a must have.

    ~MINX

    • 57 posts
    December 11, 2016 7:50 AM PST

    Been ages since I posted here. Still amazed at how many people think its impossable to make a mentorying system where the mentor is only slightly more powerful than the mentored charecter and thus the mentor weill always be OP and the system eaisly exploited. I hosntly can't tell if this is due to an utter lack of faith in the devs, or some odd genetic condition that prevents people from being able to imagine things. Oh well.

    • 2130 posts
    December 11, 2016 8:33 AM PST

    Seriously. EQ2 has historically had some of the most incompetent devs in the history of MMO gaming. Acting like a mentoring system is necessarily going to be as terrible as that is an insult to the people working at VR.

    • 334 posts
    December 11, 2016 9:15 AM PST

    The VR team is seriously impressive (look at the progress they've made with the budget they have, the new concepts, mechanics, etc), and it's obvious they care a lot about providing a great experience for everyone. A mentoring system is a fantastic tool if done right, and the dev team has both the benefit of being able to analyze previous systems for what worked/what didn't as well as the luxury that such a system isn't a static thing.. if it's not working as intended, they can always patch updates to fix power/scale/balance issues.

    For me, it's a no-brainer to include a mentoring system.

    • 69 posts
    December 11, 2016 9:39 AM PST

    Yep, I like the idea of a mentoring system and the way it was described from Vanguard sounds pretty cool. 

    • 131 posts
    December 11, 2016 10:55 AM PST

    Searril said:

    I mentored in EQ2 and Rift a few times, maybe half a dozen total combined, when people needed help with a quest line in a dungeon or something.  The systems worked fine.

    I'd be willing to mentor down and help people now and then when I had the time if it automatically scales down my spells for me.  If I have to screw around redoing my hotbars just to mentor down for somebody then it's very unlikely to happen.

    Add it or not, doesn't matter to me.  If it's a mentoring system that requires a bunch of screwing around with hotbars and someone needs help I'll just powerlevel them outside of group a bit.  Will be faster for them anyway.

    I absolutely agree, I would prefer a mentoring system that did not require an all stop while I redo my hotbar etc.  Something like eq2's system but more balanced.  I used that a lot back in the day to keep groups together if someone dings and outlevels the lowest member of the group, and also for hanging with friends who were just starting out or on a new toon etc.

    • 1434 posts
    December 11, 2016 2:11 PM PST

    Liav said:

    Seriously. EQ2 has historically had some of the most incompetent devs in the history of MMO gaming. Acting like a mentoring system is necessarily going to be as terrible as that is an insult to the people working at VR.

    While I agree we shouldn't doubt they could do mentoring better, that doesn't address some of the more fatal flaws that can be found in the mentoring systems offered in the past. Even if a mentored character was truly adjusted down properly without being overpowered, that doesn't fix the fact that allowing it without restrictions will lead to closed communities and an environment of exclusivity where random unaffiliated players become less important and even alienated. That is what I've seen mentoring used to achieve in every game I've played that had it.

    Mentoring should exist mainly as a last resort to help players when there aren't enough to facilitate groups. At launch, that should mean 10 levels and as time goes on and less and less players exist in the earlier levels, that level cap should be raised. The number of mentors per group also must be limited to offer opportunities for outsiders to group.

    The fact that every player was potentially valuable and needed, and that the world demanded you improvise and constantly seek out new people, was a large part of what made the community and interaction aspect of EverQuest so much better than any game since. As soon as you allow players to thrive in closed communities via mechanics like mentoring, without ever needing to rely on the community at large, you inevitably harm that social dynamic; and thus, the need for mutual respect and a positive reputation, and the quality of interation in general.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at December 11, 2016 2:13 PM PST
    • 1618 posts
    December 11, 2016 2:37 PM PST

    Dullahan said:

    Liav said:

    Seriously. EQ2 has historically had some of the most incompetent devs in the history of MMO gaming. Acting like a mentoring system is necessarily going to be as terrible as that is an insult to the people working at VR.

    While I agree we shouldn't doubt they could do mentoring better, that doesn't address some of the more fatal flaws that can be found in the mentoring systems offered in the past. Even if a mentored character was truly adjusted down properly without being overpowered, that doesn't fix the fact that allowing it without restrictions will lead to closed communities and an environment of exclusivity where random unaffiliated players become less important and even alienated. That is what I've seen mentoring used to achieve in every game I've played that had it.

    Mentoring should exist mainly as a last resort to help players when there aren't enough to facilitate groups. At launch, that should mean 10 levels and as time goes on and less and less players exist in the earlier levels, that level cap should be raised. The number of mentors per group also must be limited to offer opportunities for outsiders to group.

    The fact that every player was potentially valuable and needed, and that the world demanded you improvise and constantly seek out new people, was a large part of what made the community and interaction aspect of EverQuest so much better than any game since. As soon as you allow players to thrive in closed communities via mechanics like mentoring, without ever needing to rely on the community at large, you inevitably harm that social dynamic; and thus, the need for mutual respect and a positive reputation, and the quality of interation in general.

    I cannot disagree more. In my experienice, mentoring OPENS you to more people. Specifically, people with more experience and knowledge. There are many people that would not be at my level. Mentoring allows them to help teach me the finer points of the game and allows them to team with the new blood of the game. Thus, STRENGTHING the community.

    This is especially true if you play in "off-hours", when there might not be many people on in your level range. Through mentoring, higher level people can fill those needed spots in your group, instead of waiting for an hour to find the people at the right levels. Again, this opens you to many other people you may not normally play with.

    • 1434 posts
    December 11, 2016 3:24 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    I cannot disagree more. In my experienice, mentoring OPENS you to more people. Specifically, people with more experience and knowledge. There are many people that would not be at my level. Mentoring allows them to help teach me the finer points of the game and allows them to team with the new blood of the game. Thus, STRENGTHING the community.

    This is especially true if you play in "off-hours", when there might not be many people on in your level range. Through mentoring, higher level people can fill those needed spots in your group, instead of waiting for an hour to find the people at the right levels. Again, this opens you to many other people you may not normally play with.

    It doesn't really sound like you disagree that much at all, because you stated the very circumstance I listed of when mentoring can be beneficial. When it's necessary due to a shortage of players, mentoring is great and necessary. Otherwise, my rather extensive experience with mentoring across at least 7 different games is that it's used more to form self-sufficient cliques than it is to involve the broader community.

    • 131 posts
    December 11, 2016 3:29 PM PST

    I respectfully disagree Dull.  People who want to behave in an exclusionary fashion are going to find a way to do so no matter what.

    Lets also not forget that VR is building Pantheon to appeal, in large part, to an adult playerbase; a base that may not have the same amounts of free time they once did.  This is certainly true for me I can tell you that.  The more options I have for grouping in my limited time the better.  

    I love puging and meeting new people.  As a guild leader in the past I have often used it as a form of recruitment.  However, if a friend of mine needs help to finish the last leg of a challanging quest or some such, there is nothing worse to me than having to say "Sorry I'd really love to help you but I am too high lvl".

    In my 7 years in EQ2 I never saw mentoring being used to promote exclusivity.  It was not well balanced I agree and the mentor was often more than slightly but perhaps not grossly OP for the lower content, depending on if you had regular instance gear or raid gear etc.

    I think the benefit outwiegh the risks.