Yokoshima said:
If you mentor from max to 10 but can then tank 40 mobs (and yes I seen this done) the system is busted.
You are correct. The solution is simply for the devs not to be idiotic about it. EQ2/VG did it well.
Eq2 did not do the mentoring system well, that system was pretty broken if u mentored down with a high lvl toon. Dont belive me, take a look at this then and tell me that the mentoring system is balanced in that game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qTIAuD_ltA
Westermann said:
Yokoshima said:
If you mentor from max to 10 but can then tank 40 mobs (and yes I seen this done) the system is busted.
You are correct. The solution is simply for the devs not to be idiotic about it. EQ2/VG did it well.
Eq2 did not do the mentoring system well, that system was pretty broken if u mentored down with a high lvl toon. Dont belive me, take a look at this then and tell me that the mentoring system is balanced in that game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qTIAuD_ltA
EQ2 is the game I was talking about when I seen a sk tank just about the entire dungeon of Runnyeye
Westermann said:
Yokoshima said:
If you mentor from max to 10 but can then tank 40 mobs (and yes I seen this done) the system is busted.
You are correct. The solution is simply for the devs not to be idiotic about it. EQ2/VG did it well.
Eq2 did not do the mentoring system well, that system was pretty broken if u mentored down with a high lvl toon. Dont belive me, take a look at this then and tell me that the mentoring system is balanced in that game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qTIAuD_ltA
Last I played EQ2 I was able to tank dungeons my level solo as a SK. But, at least with my first SK back when the mentoring system first came out, I routinely mentored down from 40-50 to help tank for friends groups. When I did, I was a bit better then the first time I did those quests but I was far from a god. That being said, even IF EQ2 screwed it up at some point my point remains equally valid: A balanced mentoring system brings a slew of benefits with no realistic downsides.
Sevens said:
...Are you dense? New to mmos? Because when you have an area with 80 people in it and MoBs that spawn at a rate meant to accommodate 30 people then it becomes nothing but a KSing fest.
Been playing MMOs since EQ in 1999...I know exactly how it is in KC when RCY LCY moat guardroom hands entrance and cellars are camped...but some how we managed, you either worked with the other players (and began to earn a good reputation) or you became a camp stealing POS (and the server began to learn of you being an ass) either way things worked out...and really? since I disagree with you you must resort to insulting me? calling me dense? I see, since I dont parrot everything you say then I of course have no intelligence. Nice one.
Without jumping into the middle of the argument portion of the commentary - I do want to address something important content wise:
In EQ, dungeons were a PLACE you WENT. In today's games, dungeons are a THING you DO. There is a distinct difference - and it plays into community dynamics.
In EQ, you would go to a dungeon with the intent of staying there and leveling for a while - or staying there looking for a drop for a while - etc... with "a while" being "as long as it took" - which could be a night, or could be (literally) a month.
Today - dungeons are neat little hallways that you run through as fast as you can so that you can get "done" with them - with done being "getting everything you can get from it during your 20 minute run."
In the former - when you know you are going to be somewhere for a while, other people are an asset. They help you out, you help them out. They entertain you, you entertain them. They become (possibly) part of a community you build. In the latter - when your only goal is to run headlong through and get everything you can - other people are an obstacle. If there aren't enough mobs for you and them, you have to get the mobs before them. If you have to run past them to the boss, you run past them to the boss (or at least that's the way "communities" have trended in MMO's)
For me - I'd rather go back to having dungeons being a place to go. I don't care if I have to sit a few minutes waiting for mobs to respawn... those few minutes are minutes I will spend talking to the people I'm there with, and the people in the dungeon in general. Much better that than having those people just be a means to my personal end of getting new loot.
In short - something that hasn't been seen in an MMO since EQ:
1) You log into the game outside of a dungeon you have been hunting for the past 2 weeks - looking forward to trying some camp just a little deeper in the dungeon
2) You zone in and do this : /OOC Hello everyone!
3) You see a flood of this: /OOC "Wandidar! how are you? Had a blast the other night - we have an opening in camp X, you want to come?"
I really hope to see that again. It will do my heart good.
I agree Wandidar. In Eq1 I spend weeks in just Old Sebilis and many weeks in other dungeons. VG is tied for my favorite game of all time, but even there most of the dungeons it was like "Open Ancient Port Warehouse raid starting in two hours" and you would spend a bit of time there and that was that. Sure you might have enjoyed yourself and go back but it wasn't like many of the old dungeons of EQ where I spent tons of time there as my new home. Old Sebilis,Guuk and TONS of other dungeons I would live in those dungeons for weeks at a time. I miss those days.
Hoping Pantheon has places and dungeons like that where I can just chill and spend weeks getting lost in :)
Ahhh there was no need for me to create a new thread - I have rezzed an old one. I am including a conversation from the Double XP thread where we went off on a tangent about mentoring: http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2338/bonus-double-experience-events/view/post_id/31955
Zarriya said:Kilsin said:Rallyd said:Kilsin said:shihiro said: I agree with all of the above. It does encourage a forget the content environment. At the same time, it may become somewhat necessary as the game progresses to help newer players who may just be starting out. Does that mean I want suh an event within a year of the game's release? No. Will I support them later? Maybe.Yeah, we have many options available to help new starters a year or so after the game has launched and when they may struggle to find low-level groups, we can have systems like mentoring, guides programs, special incentives for Veteran players to help the new players etc. all without promoting content skipping via experience boosts :)
Please no mentoring, if leveling is a long and arduous adventure, and the game is vast enough, there should be plenty of room for alts, and leveling an alt with your friends or grouping with new players on it is much better than a mentoring system, this was one of the worst features of EQ2 IMO.
Don't hate on mentoring just because EQ 2 got it wrong! :)
If done properly, it can be a very good way to connect higher level players with lower level friends/newbies/early content/dungeons etc. making the world feel much more lived in and populated. There are many players who don't like alts and will just play a main for their entire MMORPG game life, I have several friends like that, so mentoring is an awesome way to allow them to connect and play with lower level players, it just needs to be done properly and reduce stats, buffs, passives and everything else to that level so they can't steamroll content and power level anyone, VG almost got it right towards the end.
I am happy to hear that mentoring is being considered for Pantheon. Like Kilsin said, it is a great way for high level players to play with their lower level friends.
Mentoring was a new concept back then. I was thrilled that I could play the character I wanted to, and still play with my long-time friends at the same time. In other games I would either have to play an alt and keep pace with their characters or wait for them to hit cap (some of them never did). In EQ2 I enjoyed the aspect that I was earning AA, so there was a benefit for me to play low level too. Unfortunately when I mentored I was too overpowered for the instance, so it always felt like a run-through and not playing on level. Is this what you did not like about the EQ2's mentoring system Rallyd? or was there another aspect you did not like? In newer games they have tweaked the scaling much better. In games like FFXIV and SWTOR I do not have that feeling of being overpowered for a dungeon I have been scaled down to.
Zarriya said:Raidan said:Zarriya said:In newer games they have tweaked the scaling much better. In games like FFXIV and SWTOR I do not have that feeling of being overpowered for a dungeon I have been scaled down to.
I realize this is off-topic from the OP, but wanted to add my thoughts to a mentoring system.
I've been aganist mentoring in most games due to it feeling gimmicky, overpowered, or inproperly scaled as you suggested; HOWEVER, I believe it could work if it is viewed almost as a "reversed twinking." I realize I've been pushing my idea on scaling gear based off stats/level a lot, but I think it could work with a mentoring system as well.
Example: Level 1 twinked with a Short Sword of Ykesha would be no different than a Level 50 with a Short Sword of Ykesha scaled back to level 1. The Level 50 would adopt the max skill cap of the level 1, and then be restricted by level/skill based damage caps much like a twinked level 1 (modified EQ system).
The only "negative" argument I would see is for experience scaling. If there is a system such as AAs in Pantheon, or even for regular exp if a level 50 (or near maxed level player) was earning average-good exp with little to no challenge as a level 1 character, there would be no reason to obtain AA exp (or regular exp) at their level. I think the larger issue becomes how to control exp scaling. Or, a second option would be just having the mentoring system turn off exp gain altogether, and the system would just allow the higher level character to be able to group with the low level where they could obtain exp. A third option would be obtaining mentoring experience (maybe that would be shared with a leadership experience pool) similar to EQ's leadership exp - offering another form of alternate progression?
I'm staying brief b/c yes we are going OT, but I am in agreement w/ your post.
So yes Raidan :
I like option #1 where you feel like you are getting xp, but not a normal amount by any means, just a little bit to make it feel like there was some reward for yourself to mentor. Yes gear adn power should scale. I also believe high level spells should be turned off.
#2 is fine, but my least favorite option.
#3 "mentoring experience" could work. I think Aion had a currency you could earn. ArchAge had a token benefit if you mentored a person in a dungeon - but there was a cooldown on that person so it was mostly for personal gain and not very altruistic. Being a chatty person, I still enjoyed meeting new people on the server that way. As long as it is for cosmetic/housing items I think it would not be abused.
What about faction gain with your deity as a reward for mentoring? Which could lead to faction based rewards? Faction rewards only transferable within your account..
Carried this response over from the Double Exp thread:
Dullahan said: These are the exact reasons why there shouldn't be mentoring.
The process of gaining experience should never be trivialized. Making exp faster (dbl exp weekends) or allowing players to exp while mentored will do both. Exp is usually easier to obtain at lower levels, because content naturally gets a little harder as you get higher level. You can't allow people to grind low level content while in OP mode. Its just too problematic.
The only way a mentoring system should exist is if it scales the crap out of the player and doesn't let them get experience. If you are level 40, you should only be gaining experience from content of your level. Period. The mentored players should never be stronger or have access to higher level abilities than a player of that level.
Finally, if you want to play with someone lower level, make an alt. I don't think becoming magically lower level should be a thing in a virtual world. Those are the kind of gamey mechanics I'm trying to get away from.
I'm more in agreement than disagreement with you, and, honestly, I've usually been 100% aganist mentoring for the same reasons you are, but I'm not 100% aganist change as long as it can be implemented appropriately - that's why I included the big HOWEVER in my previous response to Zarriya. I would disagree with the lack of realism though, plenty of real life examples can be seen of mentoring and taking on a trainee (most jobs for new employees). I get your point though on the "magically lower level portion" though, but that has to happen as that's the only way it can be implemented without being gamebreaking in an MMO. Also, I think there are many other gameplay elements that are "better but less realistic" that I want to be included in Pantheon as well such as No Leashing (I want trains to zone!). Basically, I'm willing to suspend disbelief if the end result adds to positive gameplay. With that said...
I think if they are properly scaled back like I mentioned and we've discussed on twinks over at MMORPG threads, similar to a twink of the same level, which is what they'd be the equalivent of - it would only add to the gameplay as it would be a potential additional group member. I know I like creating alts, but I've not always had an alt in the appropriate level range, and, many people don't like creating alts at all. It would give another way for higher level players to interact with lower level players to keep old zones relevant.
The difficult part which you appropriately described, is the exp scaling. I agree that no normal exp should be granted because of the obvious unintended benefits of exp being easier to obtain at low levels, but perhaps mentoring exp would would allow Tribute style rewards from EQ (similar to what Cana was mentioning with Dieties), or, perhaps if you were mentoring a gnome, then you would receive some gnomish benefit, etc. Or, as a Mentor you're training a a new player/friend and perhaps if you group with that individual long enough, you obtain group bonuses due to familiarity/experience (again similar to Fire Emblem, console game, in which you can form bonds by fighting closely with another character). I don't know, I'm sure people more creative than me could think of other non-game breaking ideas.
If content of mid and low level is compelling and fun enough, you won't need a mentoring system. Alts are a common occurence with oldschool players, we love them and like to twink them out a bit and help other players and group to make new friends. The option to do this on your main instead would all but delete most alts.
If you want replayability and I hope that you do, because you're making a subscription based game, you need to not have mentoring and make re-experiencing previous content as much of a procedure to do as it was the first time, albeit with a bit more knowledge.
I remember the early days of EQ2 when mentoring was introduced. There was no scaling down of spells either: you had to set up your bars with the old spells you gained back then. Only now mentoring in EQ2 turns someone into a god like character.
I would love Vanguard's mentoring. For me, it's a good thing - besides, I love going back to places out of nostalgia...
The only negativ thing coming to my mind is if people would prefer an experienced mentored player than a brand new one if they could choose.
I think mentoring is really cool but should not be out with the release. Spend the time on crafting, figuring out something that is not abuseable by high levels rushing levels will take so much time. Our devs are very intelligent I'm sure, but there will be thousands of also intelligent people trying to use this feature in a negative to the game way. You should not be able to get to the max level with just mentoring people and not actually playing against stuff your level.
I'd much rather see power leveling than mentoring...
You don't have to go crazy with it but just let some classes have some tools for helping to level up alts and friends.
Twinking is also much better than mentoring imo. Just need some hard caps so it doesn't get out of hand.
Kiz~
Hieromonk said:I think a form of mentoring should be in game. As long as there is stunted stats/skills, and in doing so, doesn't make the content trivial, but still challenging, etc. Didn't EQ2 have mentoring..?
EQ2 mentoring was just horrid IMO. Mentoring in that game made most things trivial unless it was just a few levels. While if used as intended it can be very helpful but when mentoring is concerned there always seems to be an avenue to exploit the system.
Angrykiz said:I'd much rather see power leveling than mentoring...
You don't have to go crazy with it but just let some classes have some tools for helping to level up alts and friends.
Twinking is also much better than mentoring imo. Just need some hard caps so it doesn't get out of hand.
Kiz~
Are you talking about a druid putting thorns on a low level character so mobs beat themselves to death? Or maybe handing 2 SODs to a low level toon so the procs killed any mob with ease?
Both these cases were available in EQ
I'm resurrecting this thread because I couldn't find another related to mentoring and I wanted to comment and see what folks thought.
Mentoring seems to address to big issues to me: -
1) Out-levelling your friends. This is of great concern to me. I tend to play more than most of my friends and they often just drift away from the game if they can't play with me or if my character trivialises their playing session
2) Out-levelling content. I often like to go back and visit 'old' regions, say if I hear of some interesting content I missed or some nice looking item I might like to use cosmetically. Making it possible via mentoring rather than going back and wading through 'grey' content alone actually enhances the social aspect of the game. Yay.
This is one of those features where I have great faith that the Pants People could make a good job of it. What Kilsin has said makes sense to me.
Re. xp, I would add that the mentor should get 'normal' not 'scaled' xp ie. if a level 5 monster gives a level 5 character 5 xp points, then a level 20 character mentoring that level 5 character should also get 5 xp points, which, given a normal xp progression system would be very little to the level 20 character. If that leads to people being unwilling to mentor, well *shrug* so be it. I wouldn't want to see mentoring being an alternative to normal progression. As I've said above I see it as an opportunity to help your lower level friends or re-visit earlier content.
Re. scaling skills I'm not sure about removing a mentors higher level skills. I see that that is the easier way to balance it but it would be very weird and lead to some painful re-designing of toolbars and whatnot every time you mentor. I would prefer to see skills heavily scaled down than oddly disappear, but if it meant not having mentoring, hell, balance as you wish! ;)
Balancing this mechanic seems difficult, and highly artificial.
1. I'd rather the devs work on actual content than this kind of shortcut.
How do you scale down the gear of a level 50 to level 20? At level 50 I have 1145 AC, how is that scaled to level 20? At level 50 I have a 9/18 weapon, is that a 9/36 at level 20? A 9/35? a 4/18? It would require very serious balancing to prevent from being OP or broken and not worth using, balancing that has already been done when they created the level specific content and loot tables. If they have the time and resources and nail it down without sacrificing other parts of the game, great, but in the real world this seems like "gold-plating". The opportunity cost of this is potentially high, there are plenty of other more important tasks than this.
2. This mechanic, to me, is fake and doesn't fit in the "virtual world". For me, part of the...permanence?, I dont' know how to describe it exactly, part of my attachment to the world and the my character would be undermined by this kind of mechanic. It screams "fake" to me. And yes I know this is a video game with Troll Shamans and Ice Giants, but it's also supposed to be a virtual world. You can starve, you can get lost, you need light, you can fall and die. This dynamic doesn't fit, it's fake.
3. If making friends and finding a group is too diffiicult, then this bandaid can't cure a much larger problem. There are ways for friends of disparate levels to interact with each other. You can roll an alt, you can buff, you can corpse retrieve, you can farm crafting components or do crafting together, you can even twink or power level a friend. And again, if you can't find a group or make friends, there's a much bigger problem with the game that this won't solve.
I really don't like the idea of scaling down my character as Kilsin mentioned. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Im level 40 and I have earned all my spells/gear/etc. but now Im going to lose it all to level down to 20? ICK!
Back to the OP, Why not just have something simple, like say, a toggle to turn off XP gain. So you can turn it off, if you would like to, right before you level so that you can continue with the group for a while longer if you wish and then right before the group decides to break for the night, turn xp back, level, and be on your way.
P.S. I actually do hope that VR allows Power leveling, or at least does not add things to the game to prevent it. I had many of fun time with friends where one of us helped the other level up an alt faster by power leveling.
Krixus said:Balancing this mechanic seems difficult, and highly artificial.
1. I'd rather the devs work on actual content than this kind of shortcut.
How do you scale down the gear of a level 50 to level 20? At level 50 I have 1145 AC, how is that scaled to level 20? At level 50 I have a 9/18 weapon, is that a 9/36 at level 20? A 9/35? a 4/18? It would require very serious balancing to prevent from being OP or broken and not worth using, balancing that has already been done when they created the level specific content and loot tables. If they have the time and resources and nail it down without sacrificing other parts of the game, great, but in the real world this seems like "gold-plating". The opportunity cost of this is potentially high, there are plenty of other more important tasks than this.
2. This mechanic, to me, is fake and doesn't fit in the "virtual world". For me, part of the...permanence?, I dont' know how to describe it exactly, part of my attachment to the world and the my character would be undermined by this kind of mechanic. It screams "fake" to me. And yes I know this is a video game with Troll Shamans and Ice Giants, but it's also supposed to be a virtual world. You can starve, you can get lost, you need light, you can fall and die. This dynamic doesn't fit, it's fake.
3. If making friends and finding a group is too diffiicult, then this bandaid can't cure a much larger problem. There are ways for friends of disparate levels to interact with each other. You can roll an alt, you can buff, you can corpse retrieve, you can farm crafting components or do crafting together, you can even twink or power level a friend. And again, if you can't find a group or make friends, there's a much bigger problem with the game that this won't solve.
While I do not like mentoring, and think its just another example of a mechanic that shouldn't exist in a virtual world, the scaling issue is not a major problem.
I would imagine stats will have a scaled effect in Pantheon, probably even moreso than in EQ. In EQ, 10 stamina at level 1 gave 10 HP. At level 50, it gave 50+hp (depending on class). If every stat and effect was scaled according to level, the benefit of items while mentored would naturally be reduced. That wouldn't change weapon damage and delay, but if damage was scaled based on level/skill level the way it was in EQ, having a really good weapon on a low level character still meant it was considerably less potent than on a level appropriate character.
This is actually the reason why EQ never needed recommended levels, but by 2003, no one was left that actually understood their own game.
Otherwise, I agree with your sentiment. If VR makes a good game in Pantheon, with enough content to never experience it all in 1 playthrough, people will make alts. If the game is both good and unique, there will be a continual stream of new players. If anything, a mentoring system works against alts and progeny system.
Also, mentoring should never, ever yield a player with any experience. Ever. A player should only gain experience from level appropriate content. By definition, "experience" is something you should only achieve when doing things that you haven't done. If something is trivial to you, going back and doing it again should give you nothing.
As a former EQ1 Junkie who played 4+ hours weeknights and 6+ weekends, I just don't have that sorta time anymore. I have tried to play various MMOs with former EQ1 friends who are either 1) Retired or 2) Unemployed (as in house wives or such) and the same problem always reared its ugly head: my friends would outlevel me.
The mentoring system was started by EQ2, wasn't it? I remember my friends trying to powerlevel me in that game, and they were just WAY too powerful on everything except the bosses...and even then they pretty much were unstoppable. I got kinda bored while they helped me out, because I wasn't really DOING anything, other than throwing the occasional heal on a particularly nasty fight. EQ2 mentor system is not the way to go, IMHO.
However, if I am a level 10 shaman and my buddy is a level 25 warrior, then hopefully VR can have a system where he mentors me and is roughly the same in power level as a level 10-12 warrior, so that the content I experience is just as exciting as what he/she did 2 months ago.
One more thing. I sincerely hope that the community here can resist the personal attacks when others argue against what they think PROTF should be. We ALL want this to be a virtual world we can call home for many, many years...let's try to keep it civil. :)
Raidan said:Also, I think there are many other gameplay elements that are "better but less realistic" that I want to be included in Pantheon as well such as No Leashing (I want trains to zone!). Basically, I'm willing to suspend disbelief if the end result adds to positive gameplay. With that said...
Tangent: Have they said anything about "Leashing"? Will there be trains? I can't seem to find a thread on this.
Tralyan said:Raidan said:Also, I think there are many other gameplay elements that are "better but less realistic" that I want to be included in Pantheon as well such as No Leashing (I want trains to zone!). Basically, I'm willing to suspend disbelief if the end result adds to positive gameplay. With that said...
Tangent: Have they said anything about "Leashing"? Will there be trains? I can't seem to find a thread on this.
Well there was a train on the Twitch stream. Not sure you need any more evidence than that really.
Cromulent said:Tralyan said:Raidan said:Also, I think there are many other gameplay elements that are "better but less realistic" that I want to be included in Pantheon as well such as No Leashing (I want trains to zone!). Basically, I'm willing to suspend disbelief if the end result adds to positive gameplay. With that said...
Tangent: Have they said anything about "Leashing"? Will there be trains? I can't seem to find a thread on this.
Well there was a train on the Twitch stream. Not sure you need any more evidence than that really.
I can't quite remember - and I know I can always just take another look - but did the train go on far enough that it's obvious leashing isn't a part of the game?