Obliquity said: 99.9% of the players I would meet in game would be by a camp/dungeon/zone and they were within level range to group with. I started EQ right before Kunark so I was playing catch up and still managed to meet new friends and caught up with my old friends.Never hung out in zones that was to low for me to gain xp in, other than EC Tunnel on Sundays.
I would pass through them and help lower levels if i saw someone in trouble but I didnt chill out there.
Sure, but mentoring is not there to solve a lack of grouping options, it's there to keep you in touch with friends and enable you to help noobs without power-levelling.
Yep, 99.9% of people you meet in a zone you are camping in are your level range. Unfortunately 0.1% of your friends stay in sync with your level and 0% of noobs are your level.
Kilsin said: You can have all three options, though, mentoring is just another way to connect and enjoy the game at someone else's level so they can still experience the game as it was intended, for others, you can twink or power level if that is how you enjoy the game
Given maintaining alts to play with more than one friend is impossible, how do the people against mentoring feel about twinking and power-levelling, the only other alternative if you wish to play with a friend or even just help out someone (who isn't level 1)?
Is mentoring better or worse? Do you feel mentoring cannot be balanced effectively? Do you think power-levelling, twinking or just not playing with your friends is more sociable?
disposalist said:Kilsin said: You can have all three options, though, mentoring is just another way to connect and enjoy the game at someone else's level so they can still experience the game as it was intended, for others, you can twink or power level if that is how you enjoy the gameGiven maintaining alts to play with more than one friend is impossible, how do the people against mentoring feel about twinking and power-levelling, the only other alternative if you wish to play with a friend or even just help out someone (who isn't level 1)?
Is mentoring better or worse? Do you feel mentoring cannot be balanced effectively? Do you think power-levelling, twinking or just not playing with your friends is more sociable?
You could just slow down and not out level your "friends" if playing with them is what you really want to do. They could allow locking the xp bar so you can stay in range of your "friends" VR should have more than mob killing for players to do anyway.
Can still help lowbies with buffs or save them from a train, you dont need to "hold their hand" to help them. Don't care if people power level a friend or dumb down content by twinking if they want to skip content that is their choice.
Mentoring would just be one more thing to balance less handholding more challenge please
You could just slow down and not out level your "friends" if playing with them is what you really want to do.
I'm having a lot more fun in Rift lately because of the mentoring system. I can play to my hearts content and still have the ability of mentoring down to a level I can play with my husbands new lvl 10 character. I don't see telling somebody to 'stop playing' as a good thing.
-Todd
Obliquity said:disposalist said:Kilsin said: You can have all three options, though, mentoring is just another way to connect and enjoy the game at someone else's level so they can still experience the game as it was intended, for others, you can twink or power level if that is how you enjoy the gameGiven maintaining alts to play with more than one friend is impossible, how do the people against mentoring feel about twinking and power-levelling, the only other alternative if you wish to play with a friend or even just help out someone (who isn't level 1)?
Is mentoring better or worse? Do you feel mentoring cannot be balanced effectively? Do you think power-levelling, twinking or just not playing with your friends is more sociable?
You could just slow down and not out level your "friends" if playing with them is what you really want to do. They could allow locking the xp bar so you can stay in range of your "friends" VR should have more than mob killing for players to do anyway.
Can still help lowbies with buffs or save them from a train, you dont need to "hold their hand" to help them. Don't care if people power level a friend or dumb down content by twinking if they want to skip content that is their choice.
Mentoring would just be one more thing to balance less handholding more challenge please
You're assuming both started at the same time.
Many times, one friend starts much later, so the level difference is too much, you either PL them through content, or sit idle for weeks until they catch up. Mentoring allows you to play alongside of them at their level, while not being bored PLing them or sidelined waiting for them to catch up.
tehtawd said:You could just slow down and not out level your "friends" if playing with them is what you really want to do.
I'm having a lot more fun in Rift lately because of the mentoring system. I can play to my hearts content and still have the ability of mentoring down to a level I can play with my husbands new lvl 10 character. I don't see telling somebody to 'stop playing' as a good thing.
-Todd
Rift mentoring was one of the worst it was not balanced at all, atleast when I played it. Having someone ruin a group by inviting a friend who mentored down, ruining content since they knew how to beat it. That is handholding you might like it but I do not. I didnt say stop playing I said do other things like gathering/crafting or whatever else VR comes up with.
Pantheon is suppose to be aimed at old school players that dont have a MMO to play, looks like you have a game in Rift lucky you.
Fulton said:You're assuming both started at the same time.
Many times, one friend starts much later, so the level difference is too much, you either PL them through content, or sit idle for weeks until they catch up. Mentoring allows you to play alongside of them at their level, while not being bored PLing them or sidelined waiting for them to catch up.
Ive played catch up started Eq months after release and it lead me to meet new friends and still caught up to my old ones.
tehtawd said: @obl Rift is nice for a few things. But it's just as easy as all the other mmorpgs. I'm playing it because of the fun I get from the justicar subclass which is hella fun. Demon hunter is now available on wow... *sigh* which means I'll get dragged away. Knowing how to beat the content isn't going to change if you mentor or alt. Also, let's all start asuming mentoring in pantheon will successfully get stats right. That's the biggest issue in reading about it, and everyone is assuming the worst. How much faith do you have in the VR team? Sent via mobile -Todd
You have a game you have fun playing must be nice.
I will have faith in VR til they go back on what they said Pantheon was being created for " Old School Players that don't have a MMO they can call home players that are tired of what MMO's have become." You know like Rift, Wow, SWTOR and on and on.....
tehtawd said: *shrug* I try to see the good in things. I really do. Sometimes it's just your frame of mind. I hope you find something nice in the meantime. Do you play civilization games? Civ 6 is coming out soon. Sent via mobile -Todd
Nah not into that kind of gaming.
Been waiting for something like Pantheon for ages..have a lot of friends watching it from a distance.
Once its in testing and people get their hands on it and know its real and its really what Brads been saying it will be, youll see a lot more interest from more EQ vets. Vandguard and how it went down hurt a lot of feelings, most are waiting to see if he delivers.
How about this? Allow mentoring so that folks can play with their friends. XP bonus for the person being mentored, XP PENALTY for the one doing the mentoring, and a generated grab-bag with equivelent gear for that class and mnetored lvl? Make sure the gear is NO TRADE NO VALUE TEMPORARY. Think of it as the bags they hand out when the Devs needed testing done on the test server. They handed out bags of gear that was normalized stat gear for that level. Nothing worth writing hime about etc. Bag can appear in your inventory as soon as you hit the mentor button.
Heck - I'd even be OK with letting us use an NPC to mentor down just so I could run missed content at level.
Nephretiti said:
Heck - I'd even be OK with letting us use an NPC to mentor down just so I could run missed content at level.
Yes this. I like mentoring for this reason, to be able to still do "lowbie" content but make it meaningful (like town factioning)
My understanding is :1. If at level 50 you can mentor down to a level 6, Naked stats and HP's also dropping to a level 6
2. Gear also drops down to average level 6 gear ( so cloak of flames with 35% haste and 10HP and 20AC becomes a cloak with no haste, no HP and maybe 2 AC or whatever average 6 level gear there is)
3. exp is the same as if level 6, but if you got 10% exp at level 6, when you mentor back up- it would be hardly noticible exp.
My other question is: Would you have to mentor down form your current class? I think that would be easier done ( a warior could mentor down to a level 6 warrior, but not a level 6 cleric) What about earned quest items?
if you did a small quest for earing of smugness with +2 cha, when you mentored back up, it would mean nothing. But later if you mentored back down- would you be able to use the earing of smugness? what would prevent use of other more powerfull gear? earned at higher levels? or - how hard would it be to "tag" the mentored earing of smugness so that you can ONLY use it if you mentor down again? Or woud this -also- be considered situational gear?
What I mean is, if you have the cloak of flames that will mean nothing if you mentored down, but- when you mentored down in the past and did small quests or got some nice, level appropriate armor like the earing of smugness (+2 cha) or the breastplate of pebble thwarting,(4 AC !!, 5 HP! +1 cold!!!) how could it be made where you could only wear that quested, earned armor form past mentoring, to current mentoring?
hmm, if there is an argument for certain instancing this may be it, where you enter into a mentoring state, with your own bank where you can store high armor and pull the low armor- or keep the high armor realizing it will be downgraded when you mentor.
There would have to be rules, like, if you earned the earring and breastplate at level 6, you would only pull those items within 3 levels of when you earned it, if you went to 4 levels higher, you could not pull it. But if you mentored down to level 6, you could access it. The entrpreneuers would take advantage of this, sure. By earning level 9 armor through questing at a mentored level 9, mentoring down to level 6 and then selling their level 9 armors to other level 6's.
I think there is a better way but considering "fashionquest is real" and gear is pursued how could this be overcome? With the old thing where the items show how poewerful they can be at max level but show negative numbers against the stats- with the net being the actual stat you are getting, so the breastplate of boulder bouncing at level 60 would have 40AC (back slot equipable, also- heh) but at level 6 would be seen as 40AC (-37AC) making your breastplate a 3AC- but also back equipable which makes it cool heh.
Obliquity said:disposalist said:Kilsin said: You can have all three options, though, mentoring is just another way to connect and enjoy the game at someone else's level so they can still experience the game as it was intended, for others, you can twink or power level if that is how you enjoy the gameGiven maintaining alts to play with more than one friend is impossible, how do the people against mentoring feel about twinking and power-levelling, the only other alternative if you wish to play with a friend or even just help out someone (who isn't level 1)?
Is mentoring better or worse? Do you feel mentoring cannot be balanced effectively? Do you think power-levelling, twinking or just not playing with your friends is more sociable?
You could just slow down and not out level your "friends" if playing with them is what you really want to do. They could allow locking the xp bar so you can stay in range of your "friends" VR should have more than mob killing for players to do anyway.
Can still help lowbies with buffs or save them from a train, you dont need to "hold their hand" to help them. Don't care if people power level a friend or dumb down content by twinking if they want to skip content that is their choice.
Mentoring would just be one more thing to balance less handholding more challenge please
Precisely.
A virtual world does not bend to accommodate you. You learn to succeed by interacting with those around you, not by having a mentor to hold your hand.
Obliquity said:Can still help lowbies with buffs or save them from a train, you dont need to "hold their hand" to help them. Don't care if people power level a friend or dumb down content by twinking if they want to skip content that is their choice.
Mentoring would just be one more thing to balance less handholding more challenge please
So just to confirm... you dont care if people have a level 50 friend stand around power leveling a group and blasting mobs once they get to 50% to give you xp and buffing everyone with ridiculous buffs (Or alternatively having a level appropriate twink join your group with ultra high stats for the level) and this is more challenging and less hand holding!?!?!? but you do care if there is a system to have the level 50 join you and your group at an average ability cap for the level as a mentor with all their high level attributes and skills stripped down to a low level.
and then you mentioned "Mentoring would be one more thing to balance".. well yes, and wouldnt it be good if it was balanced and as a result it worked just as if you were playing with a legit player at your low level.
I have a feeling people think that being a mentor for someone else means you retain all your uber spells and hp and a/c plus get xp and everything melts around you as you cast spells AoE spells madly cleaning up a dungeon in a minute while the group sits back and goes ooh and aah and things die before you get a chanc e to hardly enter the fray because they get to use their massive level 50 spell (with slightly reduced damage) .. i know it has been like this in some games, the biggest issue with other games mentoring system is you retain all your spells and all your passives and all your equiment stats, i do not believe this is the way that VR would be doing it... a correctly implemented mentor system doesnt mean this at all... as described (by kilsin at some stage i think) you lose all the high level abilities and are transformed into a low level player of the same class wiith low level abilities and low level stats hp A/C etc... (EVERYTHING ABOUT YOU BECOMES LOW LEVEL)
You know just generally, i would bet if you walked into a group which had a mentor in it where the stat regulation was done right by the devs and you were not familiar with the look of high level armour and weapons you wouldnt even know they are a mentor till you asked or started to look closer at their equipment.
Hokanu said:So just to confirm... you dont care if people have a level 50 friend stand around power leveling a group and blasting mobs once they get to 50% to give you xp and buffing everyone with ridiculous buffs (Or alternatively having a level appropriate twink join your group with ultra high stats for the level) and this is more challenging and less hand holding!?!?!? but you do care if there is a system to have the level 50 join you and your group at an average ability cap for the level as a mentor with all their high level attributes and skills stripped down to a low level.
and then you mentioned "Mentoring would be one more thing to balance".. well yes, and wouldnt it be good if it was balanced and as a result it worked just as if you were playing with a legit player at your low level.
I have a feeling people think that being a mentor for someone else means you retain all your uber spells and hp and a/c plus get xp and everything melts around you as you cast spells AoE spells madly cleaning up a dungeon in a minute while the group sits back and goes ooh and aah and things die before you get a chanc e to hardly enter the fray because they get to use their massive level 50 spell (with slightly reduced damage) .. i know it has been like this in some games, the biggest issue with other games mentoring system is you retain all your spells and all your passives and all your equiment stats, i do not believe this is the way that VR would be doing it... a correctly implemented mentor system doesnt mean this at all... as described (by kilsin at some stage i think) you lose all the high level abilities and are transformed into a low level player of the same class wiith low level abilities and low level stats hp A/C etc... (EVERYTHING ABOUT YOU BECOMES LOW LEVEL)
You know just generally, i would bet if you walked into a group which had a mentor in it where the stat regulation was done right by the devs and you were not familiar with the look of high level armour and weapons you wouldnt even know they are a mentor till you asked or started to look closer at their equipment.
If it was up to me, powerleveling would get nerfed too. A player that receives out of group heals while fighting a mob should suffer a penalty. Same with out of group damage. Same with damage shields exceeding player damage.
Not that I think powerleveling should be impossible, but it definitely shouldn't be as easy or effective as it was in EQ.
Obliquity said:tehtawd said:You could just slow down and not out level your "friends" if playing with them is what you really want to do.
I'm having a lot more fun in Rift lately because of the mentoring system. I can play to my hearts content and still have the ability of mentoring down to a level I can play with my husbands new lvl 10 character. I don't see telling somebody to 'stop playing' as a good thing.
-Todd
Rift mentoring was one of the worst it was not balanced at all, atleast when I played it. Having someone ruin a group by inviting a friend who mentored down, ruining content since they knew how to beat it. That is handholding you might like it but I do not. I didnt say stop playing I said do other things like gathering/crafting or whatever else VR comes up with.
Pantheon is suppose to be aimed at old school players that dont have a MMO to play, looks like you have a game in Rift lucky you.
this first paragraph is a repeat but i would like you to read this because i think you have the concept of mentoring skewed especially by games like rift...
I have a feeling people think that being a mentor for someone else means you retain all your uber spells and hp and a/c plus get xp and everything melts around you as you cast AoE spells madly cleaning up a dungeon in a minute while the group sits back and goes ooh and aah and things die before you get a chance to hardly enter the fray because they get to use their massive level 50 spell (with slightly reduced damage) .. i know it has been like this in some games, the biggest issue with other games mentoring system is you retain all your spells and all your passives and all your equiment stats, i do not believe this is the way that VR would be doing it... a correctly implemented mentor system doesnt mean this at all... as described (by kilsin at some stage i think) you lose all the high level abilities and are transformed into a low level player of the same class wiith low level abilities and low level stats hp A/C etc... (EVERYTHING ABOUT THE MENTOR BECOMES LOW LEVEL)
If the formula is sound to reduce the level and abilities and stats of the player mentoring to a base line that is not able to be crossed then you end up have mentors that fight and die like you would expect the people of that same level to do.
I am absolutely be against mentoring to be executed as it is in rift, but based on what people are talking about in here and what Kilsin mentioned at some stage they will take precautions to not allow people to become OP mentors if indeed it is implemented! The way Rift did it in such an OP way is also the driving force for me to actually think that mentors should be (i am going broken record here) LESS POWERFUL than the average player at that level! Yes it should suck to be a mentor because you are weaker than what you may have been at that level with average gear, that is the way to ensure that while the system is able to be used but is not the preference of anyone. if you have underpowered mentors then you will benefit from their help in sticky situations of no LFG'ers but you will also benefit from continuing to try to recruit real low level players to take their place in the group when the opportunity arises.
Nanoushka said:Dullahan said:What it also did was trivialize the social aspect of the game. Instead of players needing to get out there and meet people, they were able to ignore the general populus and rely on their preexisting community - their guilds or their real life friends. It promotes a policy of exclusion rather than inclusion.
Players must need each other. Its not just a matter of creating group-only content. Its a matter of encouraging players to look among their peers for people to play with. That means not giving them a way to circumvent such social challenges by allowing them to group with only those they're already affiliated with. When there is no 'easy out', "random" players become a valuable commodity and a good reputation, of great importance. Mark my words, people will take the path of least resistance. Especially when it comes to finding the fastest and most efficient ways to progress in an MMORPG.
It's a drawback, I agree. Generally speaking I think a mentoring system could be very fun and useful too tho (if tuned well etc).
Maybe the amount of mentors per group could be limited (say one or two max per group). Maybe mentors could even be gimped a bit, not equal but slightly below, to even it out with their experience and to make people who are leveling a more attractive choice.
Dullahan speaks truth.
I also wonder how the progeny boon might affect the mentoring concept?
I agree with Hokanu.
Mentoring is nothing more than being able to play my character that I like and enjoy, as-if that character was again lvl 10 or whatever, so I could enjoy playing with a friend who joined later or for some reason fell far behind, without the need to go make an alt.
There is not advantage, there is no overpowered-ness(Made up word :) )
It is simply a way to allow friends to play together when the character's levels don't allow it. This game is supposed to be about socializing, and yes, it's great to say, "so go out and make other friends your level". We all have RL or long time MMO friends that we enjoy/want to play the game with.
Why would anyone be against something like this, aside from poor implementations in past games? If done properly, it gives no advantage, aside from game knowledge of the mentoring person, which in todays age of the internet is negligable anyway.
From a personal standpoint, I love replaying lower content, I actually grow tired of higher end content because to me that is where the real grind is, and it is one of the reason I have so many alts usually, to try low content that I outgrew too quickly, or areas I couldn't get to at the time. Being able to enjoy those again with a friend, but remain on the character I enjoy would be awesome.
I am against mentoring...have seen it wreck to many games. Hell mentor down in EQ2 and you are in god mode and can destroy entire zones without breaking a sweat. Now with that being said IF (and thats a big if as it has never been done) you could make a level 50 Warrior to play EXACTLY as a level 10 warrior then Im fine with it. Get rid of the uber stats from the armor, the high end skills and abilities anything that would give the level 50 ANY advantage WHATSOEVER over the level 10. If you can do this then great, go for it...If not, than why waste your valuable resources on something that will wreck your game in the long run? (Not saying mentoring will wreck the game but that Over 9000 power of mentored characters will wreck it)
Hokanu said:You know just generally, i would bet if you walked into a group which had a mentor in it where the stat regulation was done right by the devs and you were not familiar with the look of high level armour and weapons you wouldnt even know they are a mentor till you asked or started to look closer at their equipment.
You would know soon as they started to tell the group this is how to do this and how to do that. It wouldnt be just you in the group since Pantheon is a return to needing a group, so your mentor would be dumbing down content for everyone in the group.
Mentoring is boring handholding gameplay you might like it but I do not
Sevens said:I am against mentoring...have seen it wreck to many games. Hell mentor down in EQ2 and you are in god mode and can destroy entire zones without breaking a sweat. Now with that being said IF (and thats a big if as it has never been done) you could make a level 50 Warrior to play EXACTLY as a level 10 warrior then Im fine with it. Get rid of the uber stats from the armor, the high end skills and abilities anything that would give the level 50 ANY advantage WHATSOEVER over the level 10. If you can do this then great, go for it...If not, than why waste your valuable resources on something that will wreck your game in the long run? (Not saying mentoring will wreck the game but that Over 9000 power of mentored characters will wreck it)
Yes, the key is that the lvl 50 equipment is PROPERLY scaled down. That is up to the developers to figure out.
Maybe like, average all the lvl ?? equipment available and apply those stats to what the mentor has. This would mean mentors could not even twink themselves, which I think is important. Mentoring must be stricly mentoring, and not any way of PLing. Heck, a mentor might even be slightly underpowered than the person they are mentoring depending on that players equipment.
And of course, if Pantheon is like most games, there is a level range in which people can group and all get xp, and there is a acap, if I recall in EQ, by the time someone was 40+ they could group with anyone up to 60 (max at the time) and get xp, at that point a mentor, in mentor state, could never be over lvl 40.