Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Mentoring : Yea or Nay ?

    • 43 posts
    May 3, 2016 7:59 AM PDT
    They have zones so leashing sounds unnecessary. I never played EQ but I really hope trains make it into the game :)
    • Moderator
    • 8831 posts
    May 3, 2016 7:16 PM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    Cromulent said:

    Tralyan said:

    Raidan said:

    Also, I think there are many other gameplay elements that are "better but less realistic" that I want to be included in Pantheon as well such as No Leashing (I want trains to zone!).  Basically, I'm willing to suspend disbelief if the end result adds to positive gameplay.  With that said... 

    Tangent: Have they said anything about "Leashing"? Will there be trains? I can't seem to find a thread on this.

    Well there was a train on the Twitch stream. Not sure you need any more evidence than that really.

    I can't quite remember - and I know I can always just take another look - but did the train go on far enough that it's obvious leashing isn't a part of the game?

    Right at the very end we all wiped on the boss but there was a bug where our death didn;t wipe aggro, so the mobs travelled across the entire zone to find us at our respawn location in a small town and proceeded to spawn camp us, it was quite funny :)

    There is no leashing in Pantheon, IO have kited a wolf for 45 mins trying to stay alive on a low-level character before, you aggro it then you either fight it or die to it unless of course you can make it out of the zone :)

    • 43 posts
    May 4, 2016 1:48 AM PDT
    Hey I love that stuff already :)

    ...of course without the death not properly clearing aggro ^^
    • 131 posts
    May 5, 2016 5:46 PM PDT

    I don't really care HOW it materializes, per se, but as for mechanic that allows for grouping at all levels - I am firmly in the "Yea" category.  

    Do all the munchkin bellyaching you want - this game has a fairly narrow appeal.  Therefore consider a number of irrefutable facts:

    1.  The audience of participants is finite.

    2.  The lion's share of the game REQUIRES a group.

    3.  It is desirable to both players and the vendor (VR) to acquire new subscribers, when they arise.

    4.  The primary motivation for players of RPG's in general is character growth.

    Tabulate the above 4 very simple facts, and you can surmise that "mentoring" of some flavor is essentially a necessity.  This game will simply not pull enough players to support a critical mass at all levels of play.

    • 1762 posts
    May 5, 2016 5:51 PM PDT

    Martell said:

    I don't really care HOW it materializes, per se, but as for mechanic that allows for grouping at all levels - I am firmly in the "Yea" category.  

    Do all the munchkin bellyaching you want - this game has a fairly narrow appeal.  Therefore consider a number of irrefutable facts:

    1.  The audience of participants is finite.

    2.  The lion's share of the game REQUIRES a group.

    3.  It is desirable to both players and the vendor (VR) to acquire new subscribers, when they arise.

    4.  The primary motivation for players of RPG's in general is character growth.

    Tabulate the above 4 very simple facts, and you can surmise that "mentoring" of some flavor is essentially a necessity.  This game will simply not pull enough players to support a critical mass at all levels of play.

    Nonsense. The rhetoric that this game isn't going to attract enough people is without fact. 

    • 131 posts
    May 5, 2016 6:03 PM PDT

    Krixus said:

    Nonsense. The rhetoric that this game isn't going to attract enough people is without fact. 

    1.  Quoted from Brad McQuaid:

    “I think the days of trying to develop a massive, super-expensive MMO in an attempt to appeal to as many people as possible, the ‘mass market,’ [are] over and can even be harmful to the entire online genre.”

    2.  Failed Kickstarter

    I am not chicken little, by the way.  I have pledged to the game and am looking forward to it.  I think it will be successful/profitable.  I am realistic, however.  You will simply NOT be able to log in a new character a year after release, and be able to find a bunch of level one buddies to play with.

     

    • 1455 posts
    May 5, 2016 6:14 PM PDT

    Statistically speaking based on successful mmos of the past, Pantheon's playerbase represents the biggest niche in the genre by a wide margin. There are 10s of millions of people who have played teamwork/pve focus MMOs in the last 20 years.

    • 131 posts
    May 5, 2016 6:32 PM PDT

    Dullahan said:

    Statistically speaking based on successful mmos of the past, Pantheon's playerbase represents the biggest niche in the genre by a wide margin. There are 10s of millions of people who have played teamwork/pve focus MMOs in the last 20 years.

    Ok, as the culprit who unwittingly started it, I would like to officially to UN-derail this post.  Take (what I consider) the pragmaticism argument out of it.  Let's assume there are 20 million subcribers to Pantheon, and that VR has magical servers that can host everyone simultaneously -

    How do I, as a grown adult, with large time committments outside of gaming, play with the friends of my choosing with differing time committments? 

    1.  They can roll up an alt and play that with me -which may or may not prove to be an inconvenience to them, as they are not advancing their "main" character. Logistics required.

    2.  Mentoring - allows anyone to group with anyone. No Logistics required

    Explain to me how a system in a GROUPING MANDATORY game that lubricates the grouping process could possibly be a bad thing.

    • 1455 posts
    May 5, 2016 7:15 PM PDT

    No offense, but its been explained in the thread many times. It was also discussed here in length: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3215/matchmaking/view/page/2

    • 1762 posts
    May 5, 2016 7:19 PM PDT

    Martell said:

    Dullahan said:

    Statistically speaking based on successful mmos of the past, Pantheon's playerbase represents the biggest niche in the genre by a wide margin. There are 10s of millions of people who have played teamwork/pve focus MMOs in the last 20 years.

    Ok, as the culprit who unwittingly started it, I would like to officially to UN-derail this post.  Take (what I consider) the pragmaticism argument out of it.  Let's assume there are 20 million subcribers to Pantheon, and that VR has magical servers that can host everyone simultaneously -

    How do I, as a grown adult, with large time committments outside of gaming, play with the friends of my choosing with differing time committments? 

    1.  They can roll up an alt and play that with me -which may or may not prove to be an inconvenience to them, as they are not advancing their "main" character. Logistics required.

    2.  Mentoring - allows anyone to group with anyone. No Logistics required

    Explain to me how a system in a GROUPING MANDATORY game that lubricates the grouping process could possibly be a bad thing.

    Perhaps read the thread, it's been answered numerous times. 

    • 80 posts
    May 6, 2016 9:28 AM PDT

    I would really like to see some form of mentoring or other similar mechanism that allows varying levels of players to group together. Everyone has their own play style. Some log in religiously every day for as many hours as they can, while others' available play time is more sparse. This leads to separation and frustration. My brother and I often jump into MMORPG's together, and it always happens. It doesn't take long for us to be unable to group together.

    An option to bank xp (delay the ding) would be a simple solution for protecting individual play sessions, but a more comprehensive mentoring/power scaling system would be a good start to address all scenarios.

     

    • 997 posts
    May 6, 2016 1:24 PM PDT

    Great thread! Needed popcorn for few parts of this one.

     

    The mentoring process is a good idea. Manageability is a major concern. I know Kilsin stated that but it is a mechanism that can be rife with abuse. I think this is where the WoW lite stuff started. I would agree WoW had some serious issues on how that was presented. Rampant power leveling was the result. It was a bad deployment of a good idea. I did like VG’s version of this but it had its issues too.   No system will be perfect. It still comes down to should VR use it or not?   I think if VR goes forward with this sort of mechanic test it thoroughly.

     Back to Kilsin:

    It still can work very well, the scaling system that I spoke of was used in VG and all spells and abilities over the level that you mentored down too, were locked and could not be used.

     I like this option. It would limit the amount of support one could get out of this and keep it challenging to both level players.  

     Ox

    • 80 posts
    May 7, 2016 9:42 AM PDT

    Oxillion said:

    Back to Kilsin:

    It still can work very well, the scaling system that I spoke of was used in VG and all spells and abilities over the level that you mentored down too, were locked and could not be used.

     I like this option. It would limit the amount of support one could get out of this and keep it challenging to both level players.  

    I like that approach as well. When you think about the situations that represent the intent of a mentoring system, having to load up a new lower level spell/skill set to join a lower level player/group is a very small price to pay for being able to group with them. Gear stats could be scaled as well, though that would obviously be quite a bit more challenging a system to design.

     

    • 82 posts
    June 29, 2016 12:20 PM PDT

    Big yes to mentoring here.  Could not vote as the poll was expired ;)

    • 499 posts
    June 29, 2016 12:47 PM PDT

    Hey all,

    I'm going w/ Kilsin here and saying Mentoring is a fantastic addition to Pantheon. One of the fears I have always had with starting an MMORPG or even coming back from a long break is the level disparity between friends or guildies. The lonely person who plays at a lvl where hardly anyone else plays is at a large disadvantage 'emotionally'. I think the Mentoring system will help bring people together which is most important. 

     

    -Todd

    • 642 posts
    June 29, 2016 1:14 PM PDT

    I never got beyond the first day of Vanguard - I was one of the original PC-performance casualties, so I never got to see VG Mentoring but the concept seems sound.

     

    I do want to point out that the EQ "shroud" system was a debacle and disaster.  It was very good for lowering your character and becoming something with an ability (like sneak) that you didn't have.  It was abused and became only useful to go sneak in and loot items.  It was one of the worst things implemented in EQ.

     

     

    • 295 posts
    June 29, 2016 1:20 PM PDT

    GeekVerve said:

    I would really like to see some form of mentoring or other similar mechanism that allows varying levels of players to group together. Everyone has their own play style. Some log in religiously every day for as many hours as they can, while others' available play time is more sparse. This leads to separation and frustration. My brother and I often jump into MMORPG's together, and it always happens. It doesn't take long for us to be unable to group together.

    An option to bank xp (delay the ding) would be a simple solution for protecting individual play sessions, but a more comprehensive mentoring/power scaling system would be a good start to address all scenarios.

     

     

    Mentoring = aids.  Banking exp actually sounds like an alternative I could live with, but there would have to be a cap to how much you could bank, I'd say no more than a level.

    • 3251 posts
    June 29, 2016 1:56 PM PDT

    Martell said:

    Krixus said:

    Nonsense. The rhetoric that this game isn't going to attract enough people is without fact. 

    1.  Quoted from Brad McQuaid:

    “I think the days of trying to develop a massive, super-expensive MMO in an attempt to appeal to as many people as possible, the ‘mass market,’ [are] over and can even be harmful to the entire online genre.”

    2.  Failed Kickstarter

    I am not chicken little, by the way.  I have pledged to the game and am looking forward to it.  I think it will be successful/profitable.  I am realistic, however.  You will simply NOT be able to log in a new character a year after release, and be able to find a bunch of level one buddies to play with.

     

    If after a year after release I don't know how to play a level one character without being joined at the hip to a group..there would be something wrong with me. :P  Besides which by the time a year has gone by, either I would be guilded and doing things with other guildies or I would have enough friends to start a new adventure as level ones.   :)

    • 3251 posts
    June 29, 2016 1:58 PM PDT

    Coldlight said: They have zones so leashing sounds unnecessary. I never played EQ but I really hope trains make it into the game :)

     

    Hoping the same,  mobs that leash take all the fun and excitement away. :)

     

    Cana

    • 1009 posts
    June 29, 2016 5:21 PM PDT

    GeekVerve said:

    An option to bank xp (delay the ding) would be a simple solution for protecting individual play sessions, but a more comprehensive mentoring/power scaling system would be a good start to address all scenarios.

    I really like that idea, and had discussed having that option implemented in the past.  Old CRPG's used to use that mechanic as well such as Might and Magic - you had to go to the trainer and pay the trainer to level, and, if you weren't able to level, it told you how much exp was needed until the next level.  It would give a player to travel back to the city more often as well for more player interaction/trade, etc.

    Here's a graphic for some old CRPG vets:  Lookin' to Train?  NOT TODAY!

    Might and Magic


    This post was edited by Raidan at June 29, 2016 5:22 PM PDT
    • 1085 posts
    June 30, 2016 7:15 PM PDT

    I will never support systems which automatically level up a character to group with higher levels or de-level a higher level to group with lower levels.

    If you want to group with lower level players, make an alt. If someone is too low to group with higher levels, too bad, so was the rest of us when we started playing and had to invest the time to get to high levels.

    What is the true purpose of levels if you make a game where you can easily change your level to meet whatever task you want to do? I think this is a slippery slope.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at June 30, 2016 7:16 PM PDT
    • 499 posts
    June 30, 2016 7:43 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    I will never support systems which automatically level up a character to group with higher levels or de-level a higher level to group with lower levels.

    If you want to group with lower level players, make an alt. If someone is too low to group with higher levels, too bad, so was the rest of us when we started playing and had to invest the time to get to high levels.

    What is the true purpose of levels if you make a game where you can easily change your level to meet whatever task you want to do? I think this is a slippery slope.

     

    Chris, just so you know, this belief fundamentally ostracizes the community for no purpose other than that of showing off who has more time than others or who has been playing longer than others. This kind of prestige hurts gamers who want to play with other people. Can you explain a positive outcome of this? Because I certainly cannot, and I’d like to know how you and others think about this. But all I’m really getting from this is the whole “Back in my day we had to walk barefoot through the snow etc etc..”

     

    Thanks Chris for sharing,

     

    -Todd

    • 138 posts
    June 30, 2016 9:07 PM PDT

    This is a Very old post but I will ad my 2 cents.

    NO. They had mentoring in EQ2 and it was terrible. Yes the game artificially down-levels you so you to "the same level" but since the gear is SO much better on the lev 50 that grouping with the lev 4, he just trivializes content and make all that hard work put in the game to make things challenging at lev X,  completely nullified.

    And, on the flip side. If they make it where the lev 50 raid gear is so dumbed down, that the lev 50 is just as weak at the lev 4 ( actually its impossible for the game to do that correctly ) that means, gear will be valueless because twinking your lev 5 alt with some good items that are hand me downs. is negated by the game.

    I hate the idea. I will never change my mind no matter what. Make an alt if you have a max lev character and want to group with your level 10 friend.

    I have no idea how most people play, but I will have a main that will get max level. I don't care how long it takes. I will get there.

    But, I don't like playing JUST ONE CLASS every single time I log in. My main will be a Cleric or maybe an Chanter, but I will also make Alts : ranger, druid, wizard, summoner.

    So by the time I am max lev on my cleric, I will likely have a alts spread out all over the level spectrum. a 10 ranger, a 15 wizard, a 5 summoner etc,

    I can grab one of those to group with my friends that don't level as fast as I do. Mentoring systems make MMO games suck.

    This game will pull SOOOOOO many EQ1 players, EQ2 players, (since EQ Next is dead) Vaguard players, and many from a host of other games. You will never have a hard time finding a group at any level.

    I have a lev 15 Cleric on EQ1 phinigel server RIGHT now, and I have found a group every single time I have logged in to play. There is no mentoring there.

    I also have a lev 8 wizard, got a group at lev 4 and went to lev 8 just a couple of nights ago.

    Groups are not going to be a problem. There are hundreds of people who do the same thing I do, and play many different characers and will likely have something near enough to any level range to group with.

    Heck, if you are in my guild and you got to lev 5 and couldn't log in for a few months and came back. I will Make a toon to run with you. I am going to have 1 of every single class in the game before I am done makng characters .

    EQ set groups up where you could group with anyone 1.5 X your level.  so a 10 can group with a 15. a lev 20 can group with a 30.  a 30 can group with a 45 etc.

    There is No need for mentoring in my book.  Everyone is entitled to Their opinion. Nothing anyone says will ever change My mind. Want what you want. I don't want it.

     


    This post was edited by Medjai at June 30, 2016 9:20 PM PDT
    • 499 posts
    June 30, 2016 9:35 PM PDT

    So from what I am hearing Medjai is that you had a bad experience. Do you not have enough faith in VR to let them 'do it right' this time? Voicing your concerns is really important because it shows how truly impacting this feature was to you, it made you hate the game you loved. But what if they could do it right and make you exactly the right level?

     

    -Todd

    • Moderator
    • 8831 posts
    June 30, 2016 10:10 PM PDT

    Just to be clear, Mentoring makes a higher level player drop to the level to of the lower level player, you can never raise your level using this system, period.

    Example:

    Level 6 Shaman new to the game, no guild, needs help with a frustrating quest or to travel past a dangerous area.

    Level 40 Warrior answers the call and offers to help.

    Level 6 sends a Mentor offer.

    Level 40 accepts the offer and is reduced to level 6.

    Both players are now level 6 and can duo together in a level appropriate area, all stats and buffs on the level 40 will reduce to level appropriate numbers.

    This not only keep players interested, socializing and working together but it is great for community spirit and removes the barriers between friends, family and new players allowing everyone to play together no matter what their level.